UKC

V Diff with no protection?

At the weekend, a mate and I found a V Diff with seemingly nowhere to place any gear (Stanage, High Neb end).  My mate lead the climb and ended up chucking a couple of cams in on the next climb, on the next climb on the right hand side, then he climbed back down.  There were some flared, horizontal breaks but nothing on line that would take a nut, rock or cam.

I ended up climbing back up to the gear, about a third of the way up, then soloing on from there.  I couldn't see anywhere for more gear.  My mate then seconded up (after I built my belay).

Is it common for a V Diff to be lacking on gear placements?

What is the accepted ethos in going off piste and placing gear on adjacent climbs?

I'm an experienced boulder but I'm a noddy trad climber, so we were looking for easy (V Diff) climbs, to benefit my experience.  My mate has a good amount of trad experience.

The grade of the climb does not prescribe whether it has gear or not, but if it doesn't it will generally mean that the climbing will be easier than for a route that does have gear.

One of the most exposed I've felt climbing was on a VDiff - Arrow Route on Skye.

Placing gear on nearby routes really depends on whether a 'pure' tick is important for you.

It's unusual for there to be no pro, but not unknown. We climbed at Hare and Goat Crags in Eskdale last Friday and placed about two pieces of gear all day long, never climbing harder than Mild Severe. Easy slabby stuff mind you, but a fall would have been serious from 50m up!

What was the route?

Good shout on Arrow Route - sometimes you just have to suck it up, even on VDiff. Full leathers might be the way to go if you're planning on lobbing off that particular route mind...

^What GrahamD said.  This is the failing of the UK grading system which lumps difficulty and seriousness in together (but that's for another thread and has been discussed before). The reality is that you can find poorly protected routes of any grade in the UK. We have a crag where all the routes are unprotectable. It has Diffs next to E1s, both with no gear whatsoever.  The common cry of 'you don't need RPs on routes under E1' is also patently bollocks for similar reasons.

Bollocks....placing gear anywhere is sensible...dont think you understand the grade system, VS 4a indicates poor protection..

VDiff don't tend to come with an associated tech grade though eh?

Hi Jon, it was ‘Left’.  No technical grade listed.  Left (VD)

The next climb we did was a Broken Buttress VD 4a and had hands, feet and protection all the way.  A lovely route.

Often VDiff's scare me as they have really bad gear, I usually avoid anything below S for that reason.

Once you get a technical grade you can tell if the gear is good or not by comparing the technical and the adjective grade aligment.

That said if you read the UKC comments for a route you often know how good the gear is what and gear you might need, it was obvious reading that routes comments that it is bold but there are some good cams to be had

Arrow Route (VD)

Another very exposed V Diff with very little protection, particularly on the 2nd pitch, is Route 2, Upper Scout Crag in Langdale. Described in the guide book as "one of the best in it's grade in the valley" it's sheer delight with long unprotected run outs, but easy for the grade. You certainly wouldn't want to fall off it.......

How high is it and what is the landing like?   If it's not too high and easy enough then it's reasonable to grade it VD. 

I'd give Arrow Route HVD in a modern context: thought provoking Hard Diff technicallity in a serious position. I think the UK system is ideally set up for this if we used tech grades. At BMC Birchen grades where we give tech grades I would say HVD 3a (where 3c is the typical central HVD tech grade). I too would be interested to know the OP's route.

Edit. I see the route is Left (Titanic area). Its a tough cookie for VD with a boulder problem start (4a in my view). Protection is spaced but it's not unprotected.

I’d say 9 or 10m.  It’s a slab with three breaks, so definitely not a good landing.

When I was in my climbing prime, I backed off this little turkey ... Slab Climb (HS 4a)

Graded VDiff at the time, Hard Severe seems much more sensible.

If I remember which slab that is, I think that all the routes on it are pretty silly for their grade.  

It's because it's out in the wilds of "secret Stanage" where sandbags lurk. 

I've climbed some scary VDiffs in the Peak. In addition to Stanage there are some fairly gear free easy routes at the Roaches too where I have climbed many times.

Forget any ethos about straying off route to place gear. Staying alive is what counts for that next route every time. 

I remember my mate doing this route and having to have a rope dropped down from the top, he got stuck on the second horizontal crack couldn't get any gear in and totally bottled it. It was a fun day.

Placing gear in adjacent routes is not what a route is graded for.  Just as its not graded for a top rope ascent.

Looks like you don't.  VS 4a implies poor protection, it doesn't indicate it.  Routes that are extremely sustained at the technical grade but are well protected also get a high adjectival grade / low technical grade.  OK I can't think of a VS example off the top of my head but Finale Groove or Quality Street at Swanage are HVS 4c and they swallow more gear than you can carry.

There was never any rule you have to stay exactly on a topo line. Unless the text says otherwise VD climbs take the easiest line and will utilise any gear that is within reach and even at that grade side-runners will sometimes  be indicated in the text.. I'm worried people would think otherwise as topo lines are often impossible to use to indicate movement at a crux. They are for onsight attempts ground up style: bouldery starts might need a few goes and crux moves might require the odd retreat to a rest before committing. Everything in the BMC Stanage guide was checked by numerous lower grade specialists who nearly all did the whole edge (I was one of them). Some skill in the style is assumed (without which they may feel a grade out)  and a modern rack (ie with at least a few cams). Can't think of a VD on Stanage that is silly sandbag graded in the latest Rockfax either.

I'd say Jim is correct. Please give an example of a well protected correctly-graded VS 4a, HVS 4b, E1 4c etc because I'm struggling to think of any! I think when you get such a disparity between overall and tech grades in that direction, boldness is always going to be in there somewhere.

I'd give Arrow Route Severe, quite frankly, even though it's very easy for the grade. (Overall it's at least as much of an undertaking as Trafalgar Wall at Birchen.)

Not saying there was. Also not criticising any guide book grades. More like my own lack of climbing skill : )

At this humble grade I think debutant leaders should be encouraged to climb safely; maybe someone more experienced would find cam placements in the transverse breaks, but otherwise none of us 'old and wise' should be encouraging people to take unnecessary risks - what the hell - put the side runners in !! The OP has confessed his inexperience.

I agree totally. Graham can set himself extra strict rules but on VD climbs the inexperienced can chose what they want, including a prior top-rope ascent if it looks very scary.

Nothing like it in my view. Trafalgar Wall has been a little tamed by big cams but its way steeper and more precarious:  I'd say a full adjectival grade harder and VS 4b without big cams. 

I can assure you if some grades were not wrong it would be a miracle but subectivity in grading when combined with inexperience can lead to the feel of a route being very different from what the grade would indicate. When I was teaching students in my club to lead I'd often get those progressing fast to lead a safe and fairly graded VS that I knew they would succeed on (without telling them the grade) and then a fairly graded  VD that I knew they would fail on (knowing the grade). It gave humility that helps keep a novice climber safe. On that subject, although I'd grade Trafalgar Wall on the S/HS border, Arrow Route is in a mountain setting, more serious for its lower grade and often in less good conditions and much harder to get rescued from if something bad happens (Im guessing this is partly what Gordon was getting at)

The "Low Grade Grit Guide' site, which I think is good, describes the climb:

"The very good arete is sustained & hardest to start, spaced protection" & given V Diff* 4a

So it _sounds like_ it's possible to protect in the higher breaks, though might be tricky to place (SL cams, tricams?)

http://offwidth.uptosummit.com/stanagehighneb.html

Thanks for all the replies.  Sounds like a few others have had an adventure on that climb.  Makes me feel a little better.  Maybe I’ll stick to more popular climbs (or bouldering).

Our website never grades for such fancy gear on a VD

Your logbook entry 'Solo’d from a third of the way up.'  doesn't give away much of the drama - comes across like perhaps it was a saunter for you - why not be more explicit for benefit of others ex. 'struggled to find gear placements' 

Was that question aimed at the OP?

Hi Lee,

I did find the climbing easy enough but I don’t want to be soloing as I’ll end up hurting myself.

The original question was intended to find out if it was common to find difficult to protect lines in easy grades, like VD.  I’m wanting to learn how to use all the gear, not solo stuff.  I thought that doing routes where I didn’t have to think about the climbing, would allow me to concentrate on gear.

Me too.  But that isn't the point.  Those grades only imply a lack of gear but they don't explicitly state it.  It is possible that routes with protection and those low technical grades could exist.

The OP was talking about gear in adjacent routes, not taking the easiest line around the topo line.  In that context its only important if getting the 'tick' for the route is important.

Especially on grit, you can usually see the nature of the climb and protection opportunities from below.  Worth making the final route choice after reading the guide AND looking at the route.

People claim ticks for side-runner gear in adjacent routes all the time. You're free to make up your own version of the trad lead climbing game but please don't try and impose it on others. Suggesting a VD ascent is invalidated by a side runner is ludicrous. On harder routes seperate grades for side-runners on bold terrain are often explicit as such ascents are so common.

As for grit being obvious I don't know which version of it you are climbing. I've lost count of good looking holds and gear from ground observations that turned out to be illusory. For my ability I'm probably in the top 0.1% of numbers of ticked Peak grit routes. I even advise carrying RP's and microcams on obscure VD lines... they weigh next to nothing and have got me out of trouble on sandbags many times.

I am imposing nothing on anyone.  Anyone who claims a tick at a grade when they have used runners in an adjacent route is just wrong.  That isn't to say its an invalid way of climbing, but its climbing at a different grade.

Yes, but still you can and should get a lot of knowledge by looking at a route.  Routes with phantom protection are the exception rather than the rule.  If in doubt, pick a line where there is no chance of the protection being illusory.  There are plenty of VDs that fall into this category.

Sorry Steve, your reasoning is, as always, meticulous but there's just something about 'HVD is a modern context' that makes me smile!

I think the broader point here is that, on 'easy' routes, falling off is really not to be encouraged.  I've been doing a fair bit of classic ticking recently and I'm struck again by how much bolder easy climbing is than hard climbing.  Even if you are really quite close to gear, with a decent amount of rope out you rarely have a safe fallout zone and almost any fall is going to lead to a serious clattering. 

Hi Graham, the route looked to have placements from below.  Part of the reason that I went up after my mate backed off was to see where he could have placed gear.

I'm only trying to guestimate what that HVD grade means in modern guidebook average terms. As an example, Flying Buttress Indirect on Stanage is HVD in Rockfax so its not just a brutal VD grade anymore .. not many are in a position to do that guestimate better than me. 

You know the huge number of grades in the BMC  Peak grit guides that I was partly responsible for increasing. I very much supported increasing grades of bold routes, too often graded by better climbers who couldn't see the seriousness. On borders I'm always of the view that its better to indicate seriousness using our wonderful UK grading system so Sunset Slab is best at HVS 4b. I'm sure I missed a few routes that deserved a single notch upgrade but there won't be any of the death sandbags left on any popular crag on Peak grit (more than a whole grade out and very bold).

I've never encouraged people to take lead falls on lower grade climbs as you nearly always hit things and that is serious. When climbing such routes you need a bigger safety margin than harder routes with good pro and a safe fall zone. Side-runners are OK with me. Rope inspection or even practice is sensible if uncertain.  RP's and microcams recommended. Lower grade climbing is either fun or a practice ground and as such grades matter more to me there.

We'll have a look next time  we are up there. We changed our views slightly on the Offwidth site (grades and or descriptions) many times based on direct feedback or UKC comments.

Don't kid yourself Graham, 99.999% of all logbook entries are personal records - no-one is 'claiming' anything, the reward is your own personal achievement. Esp given that its a humble VD.

For "wrong" read "kidding themselves", then

Just an unlucky choice of route by the sounds of it.

Maybe, or it may still be the same grade just a different route. To decide you would have to grade the route again with that runner included.

A few times I've placed runners off route due to a bold start doesn't reduce the routes grade as the route would still be the same grade if it started a few metres higher up.

Its often mentioned in a guidebook where its a common thing to do, like CMC slab off the top of my head.  In general, though, putting gear in an adjacent route, if there is genuinely no gear on the route you are climbing, will make the climbing experience easier and will, in general, reduce the grade of the composite route compared with the pure (or blinkered) line.

I don't know the route in question, but I would say as a general rule;

If you can reach the protection from a reasonable line of your route, then you can use it (even if it's on another climb/eliminate). In some places, the routes are very close together.

If you are on the easier climb, then in most cases it's ok to wander a little bit to use gear on a harder route nearby, and still claim the tick

If you're really worried, use the placement anyway.

And as many have said, there are lots of V Diffs around with sparse protection. Years ago, I did the Wrinkle on the same day as one of my first extremes, and got pretty nervous on the easy angled last pitch.

Less scary than a solo perhaps, but pendulum risk is a notorious pant-filler :o

Yeah, you’d expect to get VD with no protection. 

Try Hollybush Crack at Stanage Popular. Quite steep for a VDiff but with loads of holds and gear. Might boost your confidence and your desire to persevere with trad.

No grade in the UK system explicitly states a lack of gear. But even if it is theoretically possible for some of these grades to be well protected, the (complete?) lack of routes means that in reality it doesn't work like that. The climbing is just too easy technically for e.g. a 4c to feel like an E1 without it being a scare-fest. 

Either too easy or too short usually.  If only Pembroke was three times longer....

Of course very often the guidebook description itself will give all the extra information one needs.

For example Arrow Route (Skye 2005): "No longer the unprotected pitch it used to be, it is now possible to place well spaced protection" and in current Skye Scrambles: "It is not over endowed with protection......climb boldly...."

However perhaps with more reliance on topo type photos there may be less useful text in modern guides (most of mine are pretty old).

If you soloed the route I'd suggest you could be climbing a few grades harder and thereby get yourself on classics with a tech grade so you can judge the boldness, alongside plenty of kit. 

Generally speaking if you're not supremely confident then a lower adjectival grade with a higher tech grade (VS/4c-5a for example) is better as you can be sure of good gear. 

I can't resist quoting Bill Mackenzie's 1965 Cuillin guide, where Arrow Route isn't even identified as such in the main text:  "There are other routes on the Great Slab, nowhere more than difficult and well scored by countless pairs of nailed boots."  In his index Bill does list Arrow Route - as a Moderate.  No doubt it's the polish induced by all those nailed boots that has led to this notable grade inflation ...

At least, you can be reasonably sure of good gear at the technical crux.

* usual rant about the superiority of protection grades over tech grades for low grade routes *

I can definitely climb a good few grades harder but I wanted to choose easy climbs.  My logic was that I could concentrate on using all the gear.  That’s where I need experience.

if its possible to generalize … u r better off with vertical crack systems

Easier - well perhaps going off-line and back actually adds harder moves rather than making it easier?

Safer - yes

Sounds like a failure understand the system. 

I understand the system perfectly. Is an E2 5a pitch E2 because it has no gear, or because every single move is overhanging 5a? The answer is 'we don't know'. OK , you'll say "well just stand at the bottom and look at it" to which I'll reply "I can't do that from my armchair when planning a trip, or when the aforementioned pitch is the 4th pitch on the route and you can't see it from the ground."

 I'll reply "I can't do that from my armchair when planning a trip, or when the aforementioned pitch is the 4th pitch on the route and you can't see it from the ground."

And the answer is, obviously.... read the description ! there is no way to know from the grade, as you say.

Description isn't always good enough unfortunately . Also as someone stated up thread, when the tech grade isn't given (as is common on easy routes) it's impossible to work out what it's like unless the description is generous enough to tell you.

Armchair - for Snowdonia, try the 3D viewing in Google maps.

I'll agree that there's a possibility with 4th pitch of a multipitch, but the description will usually deal with that. It certainly should if the pitch is an E2 5a outlier - unless you've got an old Scottish guidebook

For the pedants, I know that you can't give an E grade to one pitch of a multipitch.

Well, J R Mackenzie (is that the same person?) in his 1982 Skye guide has it as V Diff. 'Obviously more awkward in Vibrams than rock boots, it is an unprotected 45m run out on the second pitch with the crux near the top. Highly recommended.'

There are precious few E2 5a routes about, and I've never come across one with adequate protection. Care to give an example? 

No, Gordon, the 1965 Cuillin Guide was by Bill (W.M.) Mackenzie, who partnered Bill Murray in many of the 1930s climbs described in Murray's classic books.  An old story goes that years after those books were published, Bill was accosted by a young climber who recognised his name: "Oh, you're the Bill Mackenzie who climbed with Bill Murray."  "No", said Bill firmly, "Bill Murray climbed with me".

That Cuillin guide (first issued 1958) wasn't perhaps one of the SMC's best, but Bill Mackenzie was a very bold climber.  He also notably graded Wallwork's Route on the Cioch Upper Buttress as a Diff.  In his 1982 guide, two editions on from Bill Mackenzie's one, John Mackenzie (no relation, now Lord Cromartie) pithily observed that Wallwork's is "a good line which used to be slightly undergraded, giving "Difficult" leaders an occasional hiccup."  A very Scottish understatement - the UKC log scores put it as a high VDiff.

I've found that guidebook descriptions  tend to provide the necessary clues

They normally do, but not always unfortunately. Climbers who don't have a good understanding of the nuances of English wouldn't necessarily work it out either.

Well as that makes you the only one who does, can you explain it to the rest of us? 

How much information do you want?

You know the route is VDiff. It is either Mod climbing with minimal pro or Severe climbing with more placements than you can fill. Can you climb Vdiff? That is the question you have to answer before you set off on the route. It's called climbing.

As you say. Also, the grades below VS are just adjectives that are at best moderately useful, yet severely limited in their accuracy. No one ever used to take them very seriously, and accepted that climbs below VS would still be 'difficult' in some real sense (even if merely strenuous and/or potentially dangerous), otherwise they'd just be scrambles.

This is the description of the climb at Stanage

  "Lovely. Pity it is so short. © Rockfax"

I think Eastern grit said the same, but that 's at home, so I can't check.  I can't see any indication about protection in there.

...and over time more people have had a chance to give there opinion so, hopefully, the worst sandbags and most over-graded routes have been weeded out.

I don't see how the UK grade system can be so 'flawed' when most other systems rely on a single number, letter or combination of. 

Then again, if well protected E2 5a routes don't exist, there shouldn't be much to work out.

Well, one would have to resort to plan b and make an ocular assessment of the arete bearing on mind they're rarely over protected 

AKA common sense