UKC

We are going to the Dolomites in June and have a nine month old. I would really like to do some via ferratas while we are there but I don't know if I'm fooling myself. I was looking at ones below a grade 3 and thinking we could possibly make a mini harness and then have her in the Osprey poco carrier. 

I have a MPG certificate from Aus and have been trad and sport climbing for almost ten years so I feel confident in my rope skills. 

My question is, has anyone done something similar before? Any tips or equipment you would recommend?

In reply to Kylieclimbs:

I'm sure you could do it but the risk of rockfall is high. Personally I wouldn't consider it

In reply to Kylieclimbs:

might be easier to get a baby sitter 🤔

In reply to Kylieclimbs:

9month old baby in a carrier with a home made harness on grade 3 VF.

Read that out loud to any knowledgable person in your vicinity. 

In reply to Kylieclimbs:

Just no.  Please don’t.

Ive done numerous via ferrata, have three kids who I have carried in all manner of slings (not on a via ferrata!), have taken them to alpine areas on holidays etc.

I know it’s very frustrating not being able to do all the things you could do before the wee one came along, I totally understand that.  I’ve been there.

However, the list of things that could go wrong taking an infant on a Via Ferrata is massive.  And assuming you managed it with the baby onboard, it probably wouldn’t be as much fun as you’d imagine.

Please wait a few years and find other ways to enjoy chilling out with your baby.  Time passes so quick and they are not little for long - I’m heading to the dolomites this summer too, with a 15, 18 and 20 year old - whole different set of challenges.

In reply to Kylieclimbs:

Is this a serious post? The thought of anyone thinking this is a good idea...

In reply to Kylieclimbs:

I think you're fooling yourself. There are probably three major hazards types to think about: rock fall, falling and 'environmental' (e.g. weather, benightment, etc.). All of these get worse with a baby strapped to you.

There's going to be very little you can do about rockfall to protect her - a helmet probably won't be much use and you probably won't find a rock climbing helmet for her (probably for good reason). The only real protection would be to move faster in dangerous areas - which will be much harder with a baby strapped to you over broken ground.

Falling is pretty grim on via ferrata due to big fall factors - the forces which are created on the body can be huge. It's only a few months since you were celebrating your baby being able to hold her head up on her own - please don't risk them in a VF fall.

Environmental. Little kids get colder much faster than adults due being much smaller. You'll be nice and warm working hard, but a baby in a carrier will need to be very well insulated to make it work. If/ when you have to bail off something quickly, it all gets harder with a baby - both the extra weight of the baby and all their stuff, but also when you have tho stop to feed/change them. I've been on dolomite via ferratas on beautiful days where within minutes an unexpected thunderstorm has blown up and it's a chaotic race as everyone tries to bail off. This would be a nightmare and dangerous with a baby, both for you and for everyone else on the VF who will also be desperate to get off the giant lightning conductor they've strapped themselves to. Don't do it. 

As sealwife says - it's a pretty terrible idea, and I say this as a father of a 4 year old and a three month old, who loves doing VF in the dolomites. I love doing things with my kids in the outdoors, but you do have to modify what you do, particularly when the kids are so young. Go to the dolomites, have a great time, there are some spectacular walks you can do as a family, but don't expect an outdoor holiday with a baby to be the same as an outdoor holiday pre-kids, it just isn't. That was probably one of the biggest shocks we had when we became parents. 

In reply to Kylieclimbs:

You could find yourself the subject of criminal charges

In reply to Kylieclimbs:

This I hope is a Troll.

 

In reply to Godwin:

Can’t really seeing it being anything else given the profile creation and update timelines.

In reply to Kylieclimbs:

You've had a few harsh replies and I just wanted to add a more supportive response.

When our children were young we took them to places in the crags and mountains that were probably ill-advised, and some which, in hindsight, we were lucky to get away with 🙂.

Miraculously, they survived our neglectful parenting and as independent adults they still love climbing and being in the mountains.

I'm NOT advocating taking your baby on a VF.  There are objective dangers (as other people have said) which you can't eliminate.  

But I don't blame you for considering it, and for wanting to find ways to maintain your identify as a climber as well as a parent.

In reply to Kylieclimbs:

I'm not going to beat around the bush, this is the single most mental post I've ever seen on UKClimbing. And I've been on here since around 2003? No. Please don't.

1) baby in carrier places bodyweight higher. Unless using a full body harness you will invert and baby will fall out of the carrier, and you will pile drive your head into the ground. 

2) in any fall on VF you have a decent chance of hitting metal work and/or ledges. Think about your baby's body smashing at speed into the floor with your weight onto of it.

3) mountain weather in the Dolomites is frequently stormy and it can go from sunny and 28 degrees to snowing and hailing in the space of an hour.

Go sport climbing and leave baby at the base with your partner. Go hiking. Enjoy the flower meadows. Have a chill time. You have the rest of your lofe to be adventurous with your kid. I say that as someone who took my son on his first VF at 3.5 years, belaying him as he went, have taken him climbing, bouldering, skiing, mountain biking, and on a 3 day grade 2+ packrafting trip when he was 9.  Don't add to the already high VF accident rate. Every time I (now infrequently) go on a VF I see people doing stupid stuff, misusing equipment, taking kids who are too small on adult kits, climbing on difficult sections bunched together. 

In reply to heleno:

Thanks I appreciate this. Tbf when I posted I figured it was a no but thought I would just ask to see if other people had done it. 

I'm shocked by the number of people have essentially just called me an idiot for even asking. 

In reply to Kylieclimbs:

Me too. I expected it to be significantly higher.

In reply to Kylieclimbs:

Are you actually shocked? Come on, it really is a daft notion. We all have them at times, and yeah maybe some of the replies are a bit stern, but come on... Read what you wrote out loud and re-ask the question to yourself as if you were us... if we said "well maybe don't do that?" it's simply not unequivocal enough. So whilst it may be ego bruising, don't take it personally, we're actually looking out for you. People new to VF nearly always underestimate the consequences of a fall, and I think that's what you've done...

In reply to Kylieclimbs:

Why?

In reply to Kylieclimbs:

My the way I just read what MPG is... I'm actually even more surprised that you asked... dude, you're a qualified instructor. I have no doubt you have good skills on the back of this, but surely you'd be well focused on safety? And understand the consequences of a fall? Or that in the mountains there are unforeseen eventualities which no amount of qualifications or skill can make up for?

In reply to Kylieclimbs:

I think that the frankness of the replies stems from how obviously bad the idea seems to anyone familiar with VF in the dolomites (and kids!), combined with how serious the consequences could easily be here - it would be more than just a whoopsie doopsie where you feel a bit silly - I think people were genuinely concerned. Finally, to me at least, it didn't read as 'I'm a noob and never done any any VF before, is there any way to combine it with kids?'. You mention qualifications and experience, and whilst I've no idea what an MPG is I think it was shocking for a lot of people that someone with 'nearly 10 years of trad and sport climbing' experience would consider the idea for long enough to write the original post.

In reply

Hands up anyone who has never had a questionable idea or done something a bit daft without thinking it through. Anyone?

I know I have. Anyone else?

Kylie, I hope you have a great holiday

In reply to Kylieclimbs:

Are you new here? :P

In reply to profitofdoom:

Absolutely tons!

Julie deserves credit for thinking first tbf. 

My view, VF with a baby is a pretty unwise idea. 

In reply to Kylieclimbs:

I'm assuming you've never done a VF. If you're a climber then of course you'd likely have no trouble with the physical aspects, but ignoring the other risk factors, the nature of falls on VFs makes your suggestion a non-starter.

They're totally different from climbing falls, without an energy absorbing device (specially made for VF) you're talking about fall factor 5; i.e. your connection to the VF wire would snap resulting in a ground fall, the FF 5 shock would likely break your back as well.

VF lanyards are only designed to absorb energy to reduce the fall factor to a level where your connection to the wire is not severed. But, VF falls are not "comfortable" like the majority of climbing falls, most of them result in injury (often serious and life changing) and difficult rescues.

In a VF fall the lanyard slides down the wire until it hits the next connection (to the rock). In the meantime you will have fallen and tumbled, probably hitting metal rungs, bits of rock, etc in a totally uncontrolled manner until you are brought to a very sudden stop.

Now imagine that kind of fall with your baby somehow attached to you (however securely) and you'll appreciate why your idea is a non-starter.

In reply to Kylieclimbs:

It reminds me of what we used to call an "Alabama Air Bag" - parent driving around with baby sat on lap between them and steering wheel. 

Sudden stop - whoops - ah well it's easy to make another one and they are free!

In reply to The Thread:

Putting aside the rights and wrongs of what has been asked here we really need to get away from this habit of attacking a poster for asking a question.

There are a couple of good, measured posts on here, but also a number of belittling, sarcastic and borderline insulting posts. 

If someone asks a question or suggests something that you don’t think is a good idea, by all means say why. But please remember there’s a person behind the post, and they’ve done the right thing by asking!

Insulting posts are just going to discourage others from doing the same in the future, which could end up putting themselves or people around them at risk. 

This isn’t the fist time I’ve said this and I’m sure it won’t be the last.  What’s more important. Giving out good safety information and encouraging others to seek the same, or making yourself feel good by belittling someone whom you never met? 

In reply to Kylieclimbs:

Leo Houlding took his kids up the North Ridge of the Piz Badile. The youngest one was three at the time, and did the trip in a baby carrier carried by his wife. See e.g. https://keswickreminder.co.uk/2020/08/11/leo-houldings-children-following-i...

In reply to Kylieclimbs:

Alex Honnold doesn’t think it’s such a daft idea.

“The baby would be in the backpack but he would also be wearing a little harness attached to the ropes separate from where I’m attached,” said Honnold. “I would just be climbing the ropes like normal, which isn’t very hard. And then the baby would just be backed up.”

If you haven’t seen the interview, it’s worth looking up and gives some perspective as to how someone who is very experienced can decide that this sort of thing isn’t a daft idea.

In reply to ablackett:

Maybe Alex Honnold is a legend climber but not the best to take parenting advice from? I mean, it all depends on the context of course, but taking a 'baby' (as in an actual infant) up any route is questionable in my eyes just because I can't see how it is justifiable regardless of how 'safe' you make it. It's all fine til it's not ennit. Slightly different with Leo Houlding's kids at 7 and 3, they're much more mobile and resilient and it's easier to see how their needs are being fulfilled in a safe way. I just can't see how it would be in the interest of a baby to be put in that position. 

In reply to Wyre Forest Illuminati:

Well said, and you could also argue that a 3 and 7 year old kid would get something out if it to partially justify the risk.

Which isn't the same with a baby.

In reply to TheGeneralist:

Quite, a 3 and 7 year old can easily say "No thanks, dad" or "That sounds like fun" and it could easily be a safe and healthy part of their development. I can't see how it would be good for a baby, they'd get just as much from playing around somewhere in the hills/ mountains away from close proximity to heights/ rockfall etc. As somebody above wisely noted: they grow up quickly and there's plenty of time for all this stuff when they're older!

In reply to Wyre Forest Illuminati:

They can also say 'I'm cold', 'I'm hungry' or 'I'm scared', which gives you a much better chance of doing something about it. They also have some understanding if you say 'we need to get down this bit quickly before we can stop to eat' or something. 

In reply to pneame:

Always amazes me how many dumb people drive around with their kids not seat belted.

If you told them to drive around with their best crockery just stacked up on the back seat they'd think you were mad yet I suspect most of them would value their children more than their crockery.

In reply to Graeme G:

I'm awaiting the "Bungee jumping carrying a baby" or "Sky/scuba diving carrying a baby " threads.

In reply to Kylieclimbs:

Take a look Leo Houlding and what he and his wife have done with their kids at various ages. Maybe rather than opening yourself up to hostile comments here, you could try asking him for advice directly, you never know he just might????? reply and give you some advice https://www.leohoulding.com/contact (or might not... I don't know the guy, but if you never try asking...)

In reply to Godwin:

My thoughts exactly. The difference between Leo's adventure and Kylieclimbs is I'm not aware of Leo asking for advice beforehand.

The interesting thing for me would be, in the event something tragic happening, could the parent be held criminally responsible?

In reply to Graeme G:

I would think so, it is, I would suggest, it is all about consent. My Grandson is 2 years 8 months old, and the idea he could give consent for something like this is ludicrous. I am sure it all sounds very good stood in the bar regaling people with tales of daring do, but stood in a courtroom, explaining why one put a person who could not give consent into such a position, would be toe curling.

In reply to Godwin:

I think I agree with everything up saying a three year old wouldn't get anything from climbing. My son is 4 now, and I just haven't got around to taking him climbing yet, but I'm planning to do it in the next few weeks. However, this will be locally, on a top rope, after I've asked him if he wants to do it, and on the proviso that if he tries it and after 10 minutes doesn't like it, we can do something else. Same with canoeing, sailing, archery etc. In my experience the best way to put a kid off doing something again is to make them do it far beyond what they want to do. If they could do it for 15 minutes, then it's always better to do it with them for 10 and bank it as a good experience they want to repeat, than for 20 and imprint it as that thing dad made me do where I ended up scared. Much as I am desperate for my son to ride his bike more, I know that if I push it just a little too hard I could set back progress by 6 months. 

It's a bit different with a 9 month old as I doubt  they've built up those associations yet, but still. 

In reply to Green Porridge:

I said on a climb. In the Via Ferrata and Houlding scenario, the child is passive, and gaining nothing from it.

A child on a top rope at single pitch crag, in a harness, with no rock fall danger is probably safer than down the park on a swing, and is actually climbing, which they will probably enjoy, if not overdone.

{EDIT] A friend of mine who has taken many children on their first climbing, always reckoned children enjoy scampering over rocks, but when a rope is put on them, they can get sacred, because they did not realise it was a potentially dangerous situation, but the adult putting the rope on them, tells the child the adult thinks it is dangerous.

In reply to ablackett:

Honnold thought that free soloing The Nose was a good idea. It clearly isn't, and the fact he happened to get away with it doesn't make him right.

In reply to Godwin:

Nah. Spending an already overpopulated planet's natural resources in order to perpetuate your own genes? There's literally nothing more selfish.

In reply to planetmarshall:

You could have a point. I broached this exact subject with my Wife on our walk today and she gave me a look that told me to STFU and enjoy the scenery.

In reply to planetmarshall:

Good job your parents were so selfish so we get to listen to your cynicism… Hope you don’t do anything that damages the environment etc.

Funnily enough, I used to say things exactly like this before I had kids. Maybe it is selfish, but looking at people doing all sorts of selfish things I find it hard to criticise parents particularly. Also, now I spend large amounts of my life looking after something I’d gladly give my life for I’ve started to understand something about the nature of selflessness. Anyway, keep banging the drum, I hope it fixes the planet. 

In reply to Robert Durran:

To my shame I’ve lowered myself to bouldering as a means of eugenics, sticking mine on the pad and trying to squish them. Unfortunately I’m very predictable in my ineptness and they’re pretty agile so no selfless cleansing yet, survival of the fittest etc. 

In reply to Wyre Forest Illuminati:

It was a clearly (hopefully) tongue in cheek comment, but this argument is so obviously dumb it has its own meme.

https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/we-should-improve-society-somewhat

In reply to Kylieclimbs:

Just arrived in the thread and no chance to read all the replies.

Did anyone say "no; don't" yet?

In reply to Michael Hood:

Yeah. I agree with Michael that you should stick to trad climbing with the baby as the fall factors are likely to be less. 
 

In reply to ablackett:

Just to be clear, the idea Honnold is discussing here has some really significant differences to VF.

https://www.activenorcal.com/watch-alex-honnolds-bizarre-interview-about-cl...

In reply to planetmarshall:

“You should stop having kids to make the world better.”  
“Couldn’t we start sorting some of all the other utterly ridiculous stuff that we do first?”
“Moron.”

Great talking to you, we could go on but my son keeps having nightmares so, selfishly, I’m going to lie in his room with him and read him stories to help him get to sleep when he wakes up. Might be a long night but anything to promote my genes and screw over this Gaia everyone else is looking after so brilliantly. Enjoy your night improving society. 

In reply to Wyre Forest Illuminati:

My not entirely serious point was arguing against the automatic assumption that having children is some kind of saintly unselfish act. It clearly isn't - if it were, we'd make sure all the children in care had loving homes before having any more of our own. People have children because it's a biological imperative.

Yes, but that's not what you said. What you said was:

"Anything". Not "something".

Well, you said it.

In reply to Moacs:

Yes.  And a couple of us were even polite and helpful about it.  You might have to look quite far upthread.

In reply to planetmarshall:

Charming. I guess I didn’t like the implication that I was uniquely selfish for having kids (“literally the most selfish”) when there’s a world with people fighting wars, flying for their holidays, eating meat etc etc. and that was my point, the world is full of ego and selfishness. I didn’t get that it was tongue in cheek as you claim.

Implying that I’m a moron is a bit mean and judgemental though I have to say, seems quite personal especially as you don’t know me. You could argue that your desire to ‘win’ this argument, even if it means being rude, is a form of selfishness, but at least you’re not a parent (assumption here) so that’s probably fine. Anyway, will leave this thread alone now. Go safe. 

In reply to anybody talking about we should be more positive: Yes you are all right, we should spend our time on earth being positive. Honnold and Cauldwell and Houlding though are top tier climbers who feel they can justify the risk. That's up to them. They are not a climber with 10 years experience on an Internet forum asking random strangers opinions. They went and did what they did and lived to tell the tale. I am sure Kylie is big enough to take their own decisions and make their own mind up about what is justifiable, but they asked for opinions, and that's what they got (plus a good deal of UKC rant to boot). I do find it very strange though that you guys are saying "you go girl" to someone you don't know, you have no clue whether they are a solid climber of 10 years, a climber who scrapped through their exam to get a qualification, whether they are chris sharma, etc. So why do you think it's a good idea, when the forum is read by thousands of people who aren't Kylie to suggest that this MIGHT be OK. If Kylie is really so surprised about this response then they will take their own course of action at any rate and I would suggest that the fact that they are unsure about it, means they should listen to that instinct. There are loads of ways to justify risk, god knows we all do it on a regular basis. But it's theirs to justify.

In reply to Kylieclimbs:

A big part of Dololmiti VF is really mountaineering.  Lot of loose rock. Lightning. Other extreme weather events.  Isolation.  Not even considering the fall protection issues. Or the hundreds of other people around issues.

So to be fair, people from Australia (and many from the UK) don't have good mountaineering sense, because they don't have mountains.  Oz weather is also quite stable.  There is lightning, but you can usually easily avoid it.

So it is easy to see how somebody from Oz would think that this is a sensible suggestion.  Certainly worthy of a question.  Kind of an extension of fair weather cragging... 

...because a lot of people on here talk about cragging and bouldering with babies.  Which can be thought of by some as nuts.  When VF is discussed on here there is sometimes an implication that it is just an "easier" form of cragging.  So put all that together.

But mostly it's simply a clash of thought processes from different parts of the world.

In reply to beardy mike:

Doesn't really matter how good a climber you are; if you fall, you cannot control what happens, what you hit on the way down, with what part of the body (well, not with much success, anyway). If you have a child strapped to you, I don't see how you fan protect the child from impact or crushing by your bodyweight.

That's the concern that first came into my head. The points made about high fall factors and inverting are equally worrying.

In reply to captain paranoia:

100% agree. It's their look out, their conscience, their life to be haunted by demons...

In reply to Phil Lyon:

This is probably the quote I was waiting for.. 

I'm a newbie to trad climbing at 56 and I'm more than happy on HS and safe VS and find these very safe for single pitch and cragging multipitch. They're almost certainly safer than scrambling in the mountains. 

I personally wouldn't touch via ferrata with a barge pole - I'd rather climbed easier without a rope or harder sport... 

Hence trad with baby Leo Houlding/Alex Honnold style can be very safe compared with what I see most parents letting their children do. VF with baby just looks mad as f***... 

p.s Rock climbing while pregnant OK but rock climbing with baby not?

In reply to timparkin:

On VF you can obviously use a rope to belay people, this is especially done when taking inexperienced people and kids up VFs.

But even then, if there's a bit of slack out and a bit of belaying inattention...

If that happens when rock climbing then all that happens is that a second might fall a bit further but the stop will still be relatively soft (I'm ignoring possible ground/ledge hits and slamming into corners etc).

On a VF there's the possibility that the lanyard will come into action before the top-rope; which will likely result in a much harder stop as detailed above.

I don’t think anymore needs to be said about the original question, however regarding Alex and Leo as examples used above, they are really poor choices of examples for this. Alex decided it was a good idea to climb a 1000m cliff with no ropes and Leo decided it was a good idea to jump off said cliffs. While no doubt they are exceptionally good climbers they really aren’t role models for risk assessment and good judgement for the average person. (No doubt someone will argue the opposite, but their decision and risk assessing is based on a much more specialised situation with a higher skill set than the average climber)

I suspect we will start to see more of this as climbing becomes more popular, and particularly due to the increase in social media, which often portrays questionable decision making as “adventurous”, you often see videos on Instagram of people doing incredibly silly things being portrayed as some heroic action.

In reply to Michael Hood:

https://twitter.com/RAF_Luton/status/1650076751198814208

In reply to LastBoyScout:

RAF Luton is legendary!