UKC

/ Whats going on at masson??

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climber34neil - on 27 Aug 2018

What is the row of bolted on rocks and holds doing under the start of sub Rosa?? And also the pile of rubbish left behind? 

mmmhumous on 27 Aug 2018
In reply to climber34neil:

The bolt-ons appeared some time between our visits on last sat evening an monday evening. We had a bit of a clean up, but the was still some bog roll near the warm-up and a load of cavers-gaffa-tape down in the trees in front of the cave.

Pineappledog on 27 Aug 2018
In reply to climber34neil:

I was there on Thursday, all looked normal although I didn't go upto the cave so no idea on the bolts!

Christheclimber on 27 Aug 2018
In reply to climber34neil:

We were climbing on Black Wall last Wednesday and could here someone drilling in or near the dry tooling area, and saw a couple who looked like cavers leave the crag.

climber34neil - on 27 Aug 2018
In reply to mmmhumous:

Hi Adam, the rubbish looks like it's been left by who ever bolted on the holds, they have been resined as well, big bucket of resin and bolt heads, packets, washers and stuff all left under the crag. Apart from the mess left behind I can't see any real purpose for it being done. Perhaps someone could enlighten us? Just because it's a tooling cave doesn't mean someone can just bolt on holds where ever they feel like. ( IMHO ) . I'll post some photos this evening. Perhaps I should remove the holds as well then who ever they belong to can pick it all up at the same time??

climber34neil - on 27 Aug 2018
climber34neil - on 27 Aug 2018
In reply to climber34neil:

There is also some holds bolted on near the start of substantial losses 

Misha - on 28 Aug 2018
In reply to climber34neil:

Thanks for the update. It’s kind of funny - a dry tooling area with drilled slots being vandalised with stuck on holds! It’s bizarre, I can’t see that those holds serve any purpose. Perhaps someone was just practising for something. I don’t suppose they get in the way of Sub Rosa (could be used as footholds perhaps but that’s not cricket!) so just leave them?

 

 

 

ben b - on 28 Aug 2018
In reply to Christheclimber:

> and saw a couple who looked like cavers leave the crag.

Go on then... I'll bite. Was it her beard that gave them away?

b

climber34neil - on 28 Aug 2018
In reply to Misha:

They don't get in the way of anything, I just can't see they serve any purpose ( except for being a very poor attempt to create a boulder problem with an awful landing) , even more confusing are the three near the start of substantial losses. The least they could have done was carry out the rubbish though.

GarethSL on 28 Aug 2018
In reply to climber34neil:

What in the f*ck?!

I'm all for tooling, in the right places and I'm not really that bothered by pick placement enhancement either. But this is just bonkers! Regardless of how manky, grim, chossy or crap a crag is, how the hell can anyone justify doing that?

climber34neil - on 28 Aug 2018
In reply to GarethSL:

I'm struggling to see how it can be justified under any circumstances. 

flaneur - on 28 Aug 2018
In reply to climber34neil and GarethSL:

I'm genuinely struggling to differentiate glued-on holds from drilled holds.

Agree with you about clearing up the mess left behind.

GarethSL on 28 Aug 2018
In reply to flaneur:

> I'm genuinely struggling to differentiate glued-on holds from drilled holds.

As in, you believe this kind of behaviour is acceptable?

 

mmmhumous on 28 Aug 2018
In reply to climber34neil:

Looking at the photos Neil, it's happened since we left ~8pm on Monday. the 2 bit bits of rock on the LHS  appeared between Sat and Monday, but they hadn't been resined in.

mmmhumous on 28 Aug 2018
In reply to climber34neil:

> I just can't see they serve any purpose ( except for being a very poor attempt to create a boulder problem with an awful landing) , 

Maybe as an easy warm-up tooling traverse, but surely drilling some slots would have been easier, tidier etc. 

planetmarshall on 28 Aug 2018
In reply to climber34neil:

OK I know it isn't funny but...well... nope, sorry. That's really quite funny

Dave Garnett - on 28 Aug 2018
In reply to climber34neil:

Is it a Banksy installation about outrage and irony, called 'No Nonsense'? 

climber34neil - on 28 Aug 2018
In reply to mmmhumous:

I did wonder that, but doesn't explain the other few that have been added and if that was the reason I would have thought with all the effort it must have taken they would have done a better job of it!

climber34neil - on 28 Aug 2018
In reply to Dave Garnett:

Unfortunately it's not that good, more like a primary school "what I did in my summer holidays" project

flaneur - on 28 Aug 2018
In reply to GarethSL:

> As in, you believe this kind of behaviour is acceptable?

I said I thought creating holds by drilling or gluing were equally acceptable. I didn't say if I thought they were acceptable or not, though I certainly have my views on this.

iknowfear on 28 Aug 2018
In reply to climber34neil:

> What is the row of bolted on rocks and holds doing under the start of sub Rosa?? And also the pile of rubbish left behind? 

meh, lack of color. How am I supposed to see the holds. 

This is much better: 

http://www.bergbild.ch/gallery/images/klettern/big/IMG_0008.jpg

Big Lee - on 28 Aug 2018
In reply to climber34neil:

Looks like someone who doesn't have the space to build themselves a home drytooling wall. 

climber34neil - on 28 Aug 2018
In reply to iknowfear:

I wonder how often it gets reset?

climber34neil - on 28 Aug 2018
In reply to Big Lee:

There is one already there ! They just needed to look upwards 

simonward - on 28 Aug 2018
In reply to climber34neil:

I can probably get down there on saturday with a cordless grinder and remove them. What do people think?

n-stacey - on 28 Aug 2018
In reply to simonward:

Unless an explanation can be sought, I say do it..

 

Martin Haworth on 28 Aug 2018
In reply to simonward:

I would try to find out who placed them first, as I understand they are not in the way of any of the existing routes. 

I'm probably being a bit thick here, but if they're not interfering with existing routes why do they need removing? Most of the holds at Masson are cemented on or drilled or chipped!

Post edited at 22:59
Misha - on 28 Aug 2018
In reply to simonward:

I’d just leave them for amusement value, not worth the effort removing them. 

Bulls Crack - on 28 Aug 2018
In reply to Misha:

Brightens the place up at least

Pineappledog on 29 Aug 2018
In reply to simonward:

> I can probably get down there on saturday with a cordless grinder and remove them. What do people think?

I will start with a disclaimer that I know very close to nothing about dry tooling, but...

I feel, as a sport climber, the need to at least play devils advocate before we start bolt chopping at my local crag

Giving it a bit of thought I put forward the following criteria for chopping the bolts/holds:

1) Does the synthetic addition of bolts or holds impede the use of a preexisting route that has not been altered or changed naturally? For example, a trad route where the gear placements have disappeared from rock fall then being bolted.

2) i) Is the purpose of the addition known and deemed to be irrational?

or

2) ii) Has a sufficient amount of time passed without reasonable explanation, in which the addition has not found useful purpose?

3) Does the synthetic addition pose significant current or potential future risk or hazards?

I personally can't see any point to what has been done but who knows, perhaps somewhere has opened a kids dry tooling club and they were making an access path for young kids to try it out. Maybe they were practising bolting on some unused section of rock in preparation to make future additions to the crag for us all to enjoy, wanting to see if there bolting method would last the winter unscathed.

climber34neil - on 29 Aug 2018
In reply to Pineappledog:

I think this thread is giving those responsible the opportunity to explain the reasons for their actions , I still can't think of any circumstances where this would be either useful ( regarding the positioning of tbe holds ) or acceptable . 

C Witter on 29 Aug 2018
In reply to climber34neil:

Do you think the idea was to troll the climbing community, and somewhere someone is sitting down with popcorn and a gleeful expression to watch the indignation pile up?

Pretty obviously unacceptable to bolt and glue bits of rock and resin holds onto a UK rock face to create a "route" - it's ethically ambiguous enough when holds that fall off are glued back on. What a tool.

 

HeMa on 29 Aug 2018
In reply to climber34neil:

> I think this thread is giving those responsible the opportunity to explain the reasons for their actions...

 

 Yet not all people are members, or read (or care) about UKClimbing. So instead of writing only here, how-about an actual note on the holds...

 

Dave Garnett - on 29 Aug 2018
In reply to Pineappledog:

> I will start with a disclaimer that I know very close to nothing about dry tooling, but...

> I feel, as a sport climber, the need to at least play devils advocate before we start bolt chopping at my local crag

Yes, what if whoever has done this actually has permission from the quarry owner?  It's easy to feel that our 'improvements' to a crag are necessary and sensible but anything done by someone else is little short of vandalism.

It surely must be possible to find out who has done this and perhaps discuss it.  Not everyone reads UKC every day. 

 

climber34neil - on 29 Aug 2018
In reply to C Witter:

The idea was to find out the rationale behind it, my guess would be that they don't care what me or anyone else thinks anyway

climber34neil - on 29 Aug 2018
In reply to Dave Garnett:

That was the idea, ukc is just the starting point

climber34neil - on 29 Aug 2018
In reply to HeMa:

I don't use Facebook etc so old fashioned pen and paper would work, there are stickers on some of the holds saying do not remove so they might check them for a response?

philhilo - on 29 Aug 2018
In reply to climber34neil:

OK so its an odd one, but we as climbers on UKC don't have some divine right to decide what and what is not acceptable at a crag, and a private one at that. All of the routes at Masson, sport and tooling, are no different to these bolted on holds - they require some manner of alteration and addition to the rocks. These 'isolated' climbers crop up now and again, folks that have no connection and awareness of the mass of climbers and therefore no idea on what is considered acceptable or not. However, leaving litter (even in a quarry with burnt out cars, tyres, and industrial trackways) is not ok. I would have thought contact is the first step, then understanding why they have done it, then figuring out if it impacts us as climbers, before we start chopping things and maybe facing some retaliatory action like chopping established bolts or damaging holds. All ironic as pointed out earlier in a quarry where every route requires holes drilling, bolts placing and holds being glued to keep them in place!

aln - on 29 Aug 2018
In reply to Dave Garnett:

> Not everyone reads UKC. 

FTFY

 

n-stacey - on 29 Aug 2018
In reply to philhilo:

The thought process may have been for a warm up area prior to getting on to the longer routes or tooling routes, but the way in which the holds have been attached and finished off leaves a lot to be desired. The poition of the holds places the wanna be boulderer directly under a person with spikes on their feet and axes in their hands, not the safest of places to warm up. Who takes priority, the tooler or boulderer?

 

Misha - on 29 Aug 2018
In reply to n-stacey:

May be it’s an indoor climber making a transition to outdoors and not realising that we don’t use bolted on holds outdoors...

Your suggestion of a warm up is a bit more plausible though.  

philhilo - on 29 Aug 2018
In reply to n-stacey:

Agreed, I tool at Masson and know exactly where it is (spent plenty of time looking up at crampons in the winter thinking, 'please don't fall off now as I have nowhere to go!'. 

philhilo - on 29 Aug 2018
In reply to n-stacey:

…...didn't realise there was any bouldering at Masson, and it is actually one of the better crags for warm ups having a good spread from 4 to 7b so wouldn't have thought anyone needed a warm up for sport. Admittedly the tooling Warm Up is a bit fierce.

 

Blanche DuBois - on 29 Aug 2018
In reply to aln:

>> FTFY

> Not everyone reads UKC, and those that do don't read it every day.

FTFFY

Toerag - on 29 Aug 2018
In reply to climber34neil:

What's the fixed gear / chipping / drilling policy for the crag?

n-stacey - on 30 Aug 2018
In reply to Toerag:

Chipping policy??

WTF is that??? Lol

Oooo, I can’t get up this on the holds available. Let me just check the chipping policy!!!!

 

Post edited at 13:47
profitofdoom on 30 Aug 2018
In reply to n-stacey:

> Chipping policy?? WTF is that??? Lol

1. Fry in beef dripping 2. Let people add their own salt & vinegar 3. Discard uneaten chips after 20 minutes

Andy Gamisou - on 30 Aug 2018
In reply to profitofdoom:

>  3. Discard uneaten chips after 20 minutes

You what???

profitofdoom on 30 Aug 2018
In reply to Andy Gamisou:

> >  3. Discard uneaten chips after 20 minutes

> You what???

Safety measure, e-coli, salmonella, saved countless millions of lives

profitofdoom on 30 Aug 2018
In reply to Andy Gamisou:

> >  3. Discard uneaten chips after 20 minutes

> You what???

By the way, McDonalds say they chuck chips after 5 minutes ha-ha-ha: "Our products have different holding times..... Beef products are held in a transfer bin for up to 10 minutes and fries are kept for up to 5 minutes."

Andy Gamisou - on 30 Aug 2018
In reply to profitofdoom:

> Safety measure, e-coli, salmonella, saved countless millions of lives

I think you misunderstand my consternation - not so much the discarding of old uneaten chips, but rather the concept of leaving chips uneaten in the first place.   Not a concept I can really get my head around tbh.

profitofdoom on 30 Aug 2018
In reply to Andy Gamisou:

> I think you misunderstand my consternation - not so much the discarding of old uneaten chips, but rather the concept of leaving chips uneaten in the first place.   Not a concept I can really get my head around tbh.

I got you - do not worry - me too, I just hoover up all leftover food, mine and then any from anyone else, waste not want not eh

Toerag - on 03 Sep 2018
In reply to n-stacey:

> Chipping policy??

> WTF is that??? Lol

> Oooo, I can’t get up this on the holds available. Let me just check the chipping policy!!!!

Given that it's a mixed sport / aid / dry tooling crag, one would expect some sort of policy on hold creation for new routes?

Post edited at 11:47
n-stacey - on 11 Sep 2018
In reply to profitofdoom:

Was it wrote by Harry Ramsden??

n-stacey - on 11 Sep 2018
In reply to climber34neil:

Was the mystery bolter ever located?

Perhaps it’s one for Miss Marple or Scooby Do and Shaggy, all I know is “it wasn’t me”!!

climber34neil - on 11 Sep 2018
In reply to n-stacey:

Gabe walker ??


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