UKC

Scrambled up Sharp Edge on Saturday afternoon and was surprised by how slippery the slabby section was, conditions weren't perfect,  low cloud covering all above the tarn but is wasn't that bad. I know that my walking boots aren't the best on slick rock either but the rock looks clean and felt mostly dry (the gully above was running with water and was just normal slippy) so why is that 5 mtr section so slippy? 

The group in front made it over by forming a human chain, we very gingerly walked it with a bit of a death grip on anything going and the two guys behind us were actually lying on their bellys at one point that I looked back and finally did it on hands and knees. 

It was far more serious feeling than it should have been for a grade 1 scramble

Edited for spelling

In reply to NIGBEE:

Cause its slippy, slatey rock. 

In reply to NIGBEE:

https://soundcloud.com/deathgrips?ref=clipboard

In reply to NIGBEE:

I've done it twice, once when it was covered in snow, so wore crampons the whole way. The second time it did the roughly horizontal bit without crampons as the rock was mainly bare, but before I went up the latter half of the ridge I put my crampons on as that was more snowy. So basically, wait until winter and do it crampons! Then it won't feel slippy.

(Serious answer: I guess its the nature of the rock both the sloping strata and the slate-like nature of the rock.)

In reply to NIGBEE:

Very high mica contents in slaty rocks which is a super slippery mineral!

In reply to NIGBEE: slate, and a lot of polish. It’s like soap when damp, and the scene of multiple epics, including the odd fatality.

In reply to NIGBEE:

Over the season I imagine it can change as algae grows on it or pollen lands on it etc. A noise spell after a dry period can have it like an ice rink. Personally, I think I'd rather do it in winter in crampons... 

In reply to NIGBEE:

The alternative to that sloping shelf is to pass the obstruction on the left (i.e. the southern side.) That's more exposed, but there are positive holds.

As mentioned, it's easier under proper Winter conditions, using crampons.

In reply to NIGBEE:

I did it once in slightly damp conditions and realised immediately why it is an accident blackspot. Technically trivial but so easy to come a cropper.

In reply to NIGBEE:

First time I did it was during a wet week at this time of year (Oct 1985) with one of my sisters. We came down Foule Crag in rain/cloud, then along the actual ridge the wrong way as it were. Seem to recall the awkward neck was OK this way, but the whole thing felt a bit unnerving. Can't recall any actual "moments", but it has stuck in the memory down the years. Once mentioned this to a Penrith friend who is a much more capable scrambler than me and who has been up Blencathra a couple of hundred times. He sort of pulled a face and said something like "Well I wouldn't much fancy that".

In reply to NIGBEE:

It gets really slippy! Seems like a combination of the rock and the polish and the aspect - not a huge amount of sun either so maybe a bit of algae as well?

I don't bother with it in the wet, it's a totally different proposition and easy to get into trouble on.

In reply to NIGBEE:

I think it's quite nasty, and very overrated. Given that it's in the Lakes, it's in an extraordinarily dreary setting. It has quite a long and tedious approach and a very disappointing long trudge to the top of Blencathra. I.e It starts and ends in the middle of nowhere. I've done it twice, and that's quite enough. The much easier Hall's Fell Ridge (superb if taken absolutely directly, left of the path) is about - to be scientific - a trillion times better.

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

I've done it once, round trip from the pub, and really enjoyed it. I know it doesn't compare to filming a Hollywood blockbuster, but a bit of decent foot work going up and goat like ability descending Halls ridge at high speed, followed by 6 pints waiting for the Mrs picking me up made for a good day out.

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

That's all just completely unfair, or actually wrong.

I regularly walk up Blencathra after work, and I always choose to go up Sharp Edge. I love it. The walk up to it is short and broken up into contrasting stages, including a quick flat bit, some lovely cascades and the spectacular amphitheatre of the tarn. After one of the Lakes' classic scrambles, the stroll to the summit is honestly 5 easy minutes, skirting the rim of the coombe - not a trudge by any reasonable estimation. Hallsfell is nice too, but it's no Sharp Edge. No tarn, is there? Far from being long and trudgy, up Sharp Edge, down Scales Fell is one of the hills I can manage quickest of all in the Lakes, a perfect evening romp.

Next you'll be saying you don't like the Climber's Traverse or Middlefell Buttress, at which point we'll know you've lost the plot.

My strategy is just get on my hands and knees, fairly good friction between rock and trouser leg + there's a bomber jamming crack for the last little bit.

In reply to NIGBEE:

As others have intimated, the sheer number of people covering a short stretch of ground over the years has taken off any roughness the rock may once have had.

In reply to Michael Gordon:

It's time for UIAA certification of these things, so that everyone will know which hills are non-compliant.

I rather like the idea of non-compliant hills.

In reply to Michael Gordon:

The strata is (are?) also pretty flat, rather than vertical/juggy, which with it being slate adds to the skiddiness in the wet. In one of his books Ronald Turnbull has a line about Striding Edge being a ridge "made almost entirely of handholds". Sharp Edge feels like pretty much the opposite.

In reply to Jon Stewart:

I was surprised by how bitter Gordon seems to be about Sharp Edge. There must be something he's not telling us.

I've only done it a couple of times, it seemed a good steady scramble though it was a little bit anxiety provoking watching some walkers who were clearly not expecting the exposure.

In reply to Rob Exile Ward:

Not bitter at all. Just underwhelmed by it. Found it charmless and short-lived. But, as I say, I did do it twice. On one of those occasions, probably both, (haven't looked it up in my logbook.) I was lugging medium format photo gear and tripod around ... which would have taken the edge off any pleasure. One time it was unpleasantly slippery because wet. I was the same with rock climbing: didn't enthuse about wet slippery rock. Sorry. I would always enthuse about quality.

In reply to Jon Stewart:

I love both the Climber's Traverse and Middlefell Buttress. Both v high quality in superb positions. Middlefell is a superb solo of its standard and became my favourite approach to Gimmer (IIRC leaving the sacks at the top).

In reply to NIGBEE:

Walk across  it in socks only, you get super grip and it's easy. I once passed a party struggling on it and I said do it in socks, but they said they didn't want to get wet feet. Seemed they preferred the possibility of intensive care. By the time I'd reached the plateau one of the four had managed to get across.

In reply to Root1:

I once went up the Howitzer on Helm Crag in socks (well, spare socks stretched over Mudclaws). It had been raining for 15 hours and was still raining, so the slate was soaplike and it felt a bit scary. Was also on my pal Eddie's rope. Worked pretty well in the end - good old-fashioned method. I'd deliberately taken spare socks with that in mind, having seen what the weather was like.

In reply to Rob Exile Ward:

I got interested in seeing what my logbook says, so have just looked it up (quite a slow business since it's in two handwritten books). I see the two times I did it were 6.4.85 - 'v. damp/slimy' - and 24.5.87 - 'V. crowded. Not so good. Shiny slate.' Then, in 1991-92 I went three times to take pictures of it for my Lakes book (Lakeland: Landscape of Imagination). I decided to make it interesting for the silhouette shot I had in mind I needed there to be snow on the northern fells behind. I had to wait and wait for months - it was a very mild winter - until snow finally came in April ... and lasted about 2 days. I shot it on my Hasselblad using Fujichrome 100D, a montage of two 150mm frames to make a double-page spread. It's a bit better than I remembered it. Here's a very lousy scan of it (very difficult from the book, being a double page spread. Had to do in segments and then do some crude smudging over the gutter):

https://www.gordonstainforthbelper.co.uk/images/SharpEdgefromLL.jpg

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

Your picture does a good job of showing how great it is. It's really short, but what there is is the perfect little ridge scramble. I first went up with my dad when I was a kid on a damp day and I remember it being scary - which is better than boring. These days I only go up on a nice evening when it's quiet and it is always an absolute delight.

In reply to NIGBEE:

I must have done it in good weather (last time was 2015) but I don't remember any of it that worried me with being excessively slippery - maybe I was just being my unobservant "normal" self 😁

I liked it so much when I got to the top I went straight back down it. 

In reply to Dave Hewitt:

Wash your mouth out with that soap, Dave! Helm Crag is Borrowdale volcanic (andesite or rhyolite?). At least you got one up on Wainwright.

In reply to Lankyman:

Andesite.  I've spent some time exploring the summit, quite faulted and possibility for some short steep routes.

In reply to mick taylor:

I'd be very surprised if nothing's been done. When I've been up there I've wondered if there are any holes and fissures under the crags? It has that sort of look.

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

<I think it's quite nasty, and very overrated>

Each to their own I guess. The walk has brought countless happy memories to me - and I dare say thousands of others. I do find your phrase 'extraordinarily dreary' quite extreme too.

In reply to Lankyman:

Ah, thanks - didn't know that. Had always assumed it was some knobbly form of slate. It's andesite, seemingly (having now looked it up). It was certainly slippery even in socks that day, anyway!

Indeed. I felt obliged for the round even though I didn't need to as per the tradition.

In reply to NIGBEE:

Sharp Edge is slippery when damp and whatever boots you're wearing, it will still feel slippery. When you realise ground is slippery, the tendency is to move awkwardly and not weight your feet correctly. Even worse, you find yourself leaning backward or making big/jerky movements. All of this makes you more likely to lose your feet. If you weight your feet correctly, you create more friction; if you weight your feet incorrectly, you create less friction and create force outward rather than downward. E.g. If you lean backward, your foot is more likely to slip forward.

Instead:
- Keep your weight over your feet
- Take small steps, in a smooth and controlled way, using your muscles rather than "throwing" your body forward
- Use the features (e.g. cracks, grooves, slopes) of the rock to your advantage

If this doesn't feel possible, using your hands and/or bum shuffling is pretty standard, especially where things get very narrow and exposed.

In reply to C Witter:

Can you name one scramble in the Lakes where you actually have to do any 'bum shuffling'? I can't think of any.

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

I can think of a few where 'bum squirting' might feature .....

In reply to Lankyman:

I think I once came down 'Parsley Fern Gully' (not sure I've got the name right) in the summer, for some obscure reason. Whatever it was, that was certainly 'bum trickling'. Heinous, slimy and vegetated with some very insecure steeper sections.

In reply to NIGBEE:

It is slippery because the slate on Sharp Edge has been poorly (low-level, ie. low-level heat) metamorphosed. The rock therefore is not recrystallised, in fact it is more like hard mud, so when wet - run your finger over it and you will see mud on your fingers, hence so slape.

The Skiddaw Granite metamorphic aureole is nearby and some parts are strongly metamorphosed into spotted slate, chiastolite slate and hornfels, but not sharp Edge.

Ironically, when they built the stone staircase to Scales Tarn, they took spotted slate (usually spotted with cordierite) by helicopter from a pristine peri-glacial scree that had never seen a human foot, and dumped it on top of unmetamorphosed Sharp Edge slates. Completely out of context and out of place, buggering up the geology and the layout of the aureole.

Sharp Edge remains a desperate place in the wet, especially in Walshes.

DC

In reply to Dave Cumberland:

Brilliant, thanks

In reply to Jon Stewart:

"After one of the Lakes' classic scrambles, the stroll to the summit is honestly 5 easy minutes'

Typical climber understatement on walking times . It's about 2/3rds of a kilometre and from the end of the easy scrambling is about 100m of further ascent. Hillwalkers have a standard for a good pace, Naismith, which says about 18 minutes.

In reply to Offwidth:

If that takes me 18 minutes next time, I'll chop my legs off and eat them.

In reply to Jon Stewart:

If it takes you 5 minutes without running from where the walking starts you can claim a free pint of beer from me. 360% Naismith is equivalent in effort to 1.5 km in 5 minutes on the flat... which is a decent running pace (just over a 5 minute mile). My best ever 5k run was a few seconds slower than that pace.

In reply to Offwidth:

Is that offer open for North Lees to Plantation in ten minutes, as well? Never did get round to that.

In reply to Offwidth:

Yes, that's one of the disappointments about Sharp Edge, the way it ends on that nondescript slope, a long way from the summit. That why I much prefer Hall's Fell Ridge (straight to the summit of Blencathra), the Climbers Traverse and Sphinx Ridge on Gable (straight to the Westmorland Cairn), of Slab and Notch grade III to the top of Pillar Rock.

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

The big slope is ideal for taking selfies on though Gordon??

Please dont encourage anyone to use Doddick or Gategill Fells. They are both seriously contaminated with, er, custard and really aren't worth a visit.  

In reply to Offwidth:

The five minutes thing had caught my eye too, as being quite brisk - but I think 18 minutes is decidedly slow. I dug out my notes from the last time I went up Sharp Edge - a fine day in May 2010. This was with a walking friend who is very fit but who was aged 65 at the time (I would have been 48). Annoyingly my notes don't give the time we emerged on to the plateau (which is about 840m), but usefully they do say that we got from the "bad step" notch (about 750m, possibly a touch higher) to the summit (868m) in 25 minutes. We took the right-hand line up Foule Crag, and I've a memory of us hanging about for a couple of minutes near the notch to admire the view and to look at the uphill line - so we were probably around 23 minutes from the notch to the summit - say 24 minutes to split the difference. Of that, I'm pretty sure that at least two-thirds would have been on the Foule Crag section, hence from reaching the plateau to the summit would have been around eight minutes, possibly a touch faster. Certainly looking at the map now, I'd estimate seven or eight minutes for that stretch in good conditions. Naismith (the unadjusted version - others are available!) does indeed suggest around 18 minutes, but Naismith often comes out high for steep slopes such as Foule Crag. There's a whole theory about how Naismith should only be applied to a full outing rather than to sections, as localised variation can creep in on sections. (Incidentally, by way of comparison, that same day we took 21 minutes from Scales Tarn to the notch.)

In reply to Offwidth: 2/3rds of a km in 18 minutes is 1.39m/hr. Even up a 1 in 6.7 slope on uneven ground that doesn’t seem quick. This Naismith character needs to get himself some Nike next % footwear.

Regardless of the above I am really hoping Jon struggles and takes 18 minutes, I’ll bring the ketchup.

In reply to Martin Haworth:

Actually, reading this again, I think Offwidth is saying 18 minutes by Naismith from the notch (which is about right), as he mentions the 100m ascent (it's probably more like 120m) as well as the distance. Jon S is saying five minutes from the plateau-edge, ie just 30m of ascent plus the distance. Suspect like isn't being compared with like.

In reply to Wainers44:

Selfies, and the means for taking them, hadn't been invented last time I was up there

In reply to Dave Hewitt:

Exactly. And it's a lovely 5mins along the edge of the coombe, in stark contrast the original accusation of being a "trudge". OK, it doesn't end at the summit like some scrambles, but I'm used to proper trudges like getting to the top of Grey Friar from Great Blake Rigg, or the top of High Street from the top of Blea Water Crag Gill, etc.

In reply to tehmarks:

Yes for you its still open with no breaking into a run (olympic walking rules). I'll even buy you a pint for a noble failure. 

In reply to Jon Stewart:

Trudge was forever redefined for me by going up Yewbarrow on my Bob Graham. Nothing else seems so bad now!

In reply to Martin Haworth:

Naismith is all day pace for fit backpackers on good terrain: it isn't at all fast for a very fit walker over a short distance with no heavy pack but its a sensible standard pace for trad climbing approaches and a fair measure for the pace of the mean hillwalker on such a section of such a route (as the masses are not especially fit). Jon's target is 5 minutes from where you stop scrambling and start walking (that's a good bit below the plateau.. Naismith from the plateau edge is about 10 minutes). I'll still buy the pint for a near miss... beer is good in the pubs below Blencathra.

In reply to Offwidth:

That wonderful White Horse Inn in Scales is one of the best things about a day on Blencathra (at beginning and end )

In reply to DaveHK:

Why is Yewbarrow such hard work for a mountain of its size? I was amazed how big a deal it was.

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

It's really steep and seems to go on much longer than you'd think! I've only done it that once, straight up out of Wasdale.

I'd also had a really rough day with the heat and it was still pretty warm.

In reply to DaveHK:

Your day sounds almost identical to the one I had on it with Freda. I came down feeling I'd done a mini-Alpine peak!!

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

I know a few BGs that have unraveled on Yewbarrow!

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

TBH if we all stopped slagging each other off on this dire site, we could all meet up for a climb, a few pints at the Cheval Blanc (top man behind the bar Phillip and BORIS himself man of the moment) and actually talk sense to each other!!

DC

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

I didn't say "have to". It's a last resort. Everyone does it, everyone's done it. But, of course, it's not an ideal mode of travel...

In reply to NIGBEE:

Keswick MRTs latest incident 

http://keswickmrt.org.uk/

In reply to Justaname: http://keswickmrt.org.uk/rescue/sharp-edge-blencathra-77/

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In reply to NIGBEE:

as everyone else has said, its slate rock up on sharp edge, quite interesting as well, I remember my first time up there when I started uni, and having a very near serious epic in terrible conditions.