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3hr marathon on 3 runs a week

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 ablackett 06 May 2019

I fancy doing a road marathon in under 3 hours, it's been an ambition of mine for about 20 years and I have never got round to giving it a proper go.  I have been a pretty decent fell runner for 9 years, used to win local races, and have done all the Lakeland classics + plenty of other long races.  Last few years I have had 2 kids and not done any long training and only the odd long race, I struggle to race over an hour at the moment and don't train much.  5k parkrun would probably be about 17:45 at the moment down from 16:55 at my best a few years ago.

Is it realistic to do 3 training runs a week and aim for a sub 3hr marathon in October (Yorkshire looks good and fast).  This sort of approach seems good and would leave weekends free for family stuff and mountains, https://bridgerridgerun.wordpress.com/2015/03/30/how-to-run-a-3-hour-marath...

I plan to go out for a 10 mile or half marathon effort in the next week to see where I am, what would people think was a good benchmark for starting from with 5 months to go?

Obviously there will be a wide range of opinions but looking to see if anyone has done anything similar on similar training really.

Roadrunner6 06 May 2019
In reply to ablackett:

Its possible, people do sub 3 off low mileage. What will you do on none running days?

I couldn't, I'm just not gifted enough. My concern would be muscle damage late on. Sub 3 is still pretty fast but with a 17:45 5k you'd be looking around 2:50 marathon if well trained. So you'd have room to slow. (that's going off the VDOT calc app. 

I ran 17:44 in a 5k in november (I won so could have maybe gone a bit quicker) and just ran 2:49 but that was at Boston after a marathon build up of 60/65 mile weeks. Boston was in pretty warm conditions so I was probably 2:47 shape TBH. Most were quite a lot slower than they expected with the humid conditions.

You'd have to get 3 quality long runs, 3 that count. I'd do a long run, a tempo run, and then 60-80 minutes pretty hard as my 3. 

Roadrunner6 06 May 2019
In reply to ablackett:

Re the 3 essential runs, I see little benefit of the yassoo 800's. That a VO2max workout. I do them occassionally in marathon training to see where I am at and some work at below LT pace. It would not be a staple run. I quite like Yassoo's as a predictor, many don't. For me I get pretty close, within 2-3 minutes anyway. But its more of a correlation than a causation.

And Long runs wouldn't be easy. I'd do below 7:30 ish pace and build to sub 7 by the end. It should be nicely aerobic.

Post edited at 15:16
 wbo 06 May 2019
In reply to ablackett:. You're looking at what 6,45 miles.  So look for something under 60 for 10?.  Personally I'd look at a 10k instead as if you're struggling to do an hour you will obviously struggle in a 10

Roadrunner6 06 May 2019
In reply to wbo:

3 hr marathon is 6:53 pace.

I'd change focus and target short races.

Roadrunner6 06 May 2019
In reply to ablackett:

1 last thing, I'd check out the sub 3 Facebook group. Its for runners who have ran sub 3 or are aspiring to. Lots of good advice and a range of views from high mileage runners to low mileage. Its one of the best running groups on facebook as its almost all pretty serious runners.

 JuneBob 06 May 2019
In reply to ablackett:

Hi, I actually followed that plan in 2017 (I'd been running around 50km/week easy-medium pace before starting that training), and it was going quite well, I ran a 1:26 HM with about 8 weeks to go, on a tricky course, and also felt good a week later when I ran a solid 20 slow + 12 MP:

https://www.strava.com/activities/1174597544

Then I got injured, with about 7 weeks to go. I tried some pool running, and the occasional attempt at a proper run, but the training regime went out the window and I lost my motivation.

By the time the marathon came round I was ok again and I ran it in 3:11. I could really feel that I'd missed the high mileage training runs.

I'm not sure I would have made sub-3, I'd also had some issues earlier in the program.

I did add on the occasional easy pace long run, and I also raced the local weekly short trail race. I think it was the intensity of the training and trail races that broke me. Running 3:45 - 4min/km on undulating trails with tired legs from the other training was too much for me.

The reality for me is that I've been fully renovating a house the past 3 years (which is why I tried the shortcut training plan), and in the winter my priority is ski mountaineering, so I don't have the "time" to supplement running with good strength and flexibility training. I have recurring ankle, achilles, knee and hip problems. I've put the sub-3 marathon on the back burner and currently just do easy trail running until my house is finished (this summer) and I can replace time spent renovating the house with renovating me.

I plan to try again in 2020, I'll start this summer (14 weeks was too tight and left no margin for injury/illness) and replace the yassoo 800s with intervals of 2km. I liked the fast medium distance and the long distance with fast end, but by having a longer lead up to the marathon it's easier to postpone an intense session if my body isn't feeling it. I will also mix in some cycling and strength work.

I've never tried a fast 5k or 10k, but I don't think I could go under 18min for the 5k without specific training.

The sensible advice would be that 5 months is too short from your starting point, and it's probably better to target 2020, but who wants to listen to sensible advice!

 Neil Williams 06 May 2019
In reply to ablackett:

3 runs a week is about what is sort-of recommended anyway for general training - one long, one short, one medium length.  Much more than that can lead to injury anyway.

With that 5K time I reckon you've got a decent chance.

Post edited at 16:40
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Roadrunner6 06 May 2019
In reply to JuneBob:

12-14 weeks assumes a big base building period anyway.

But 12 weeks is more like 9-10 weeks once you factor in a taper. As you say, one injury in those 9 weeks and you are in trouble.

The big thing is a general aerobic base of as much solid miles as you can. The bigger that base the better. Marathon training gets easier the quicker you are, you just recover so much quicker. I'm a long way off what I was but I'm a lot fitter than I was last year.

This cycle I was running 2-3 10+ milers a week and 2 hard sessions. I could do back to back 12+ milers on the weekend with no ill effects that I couldn't a year ago.

 Ian Parnell 07 May 2019
In reply to ablackett:

You are much faster than me and much younger, so not sure if my example is any benefit - but I did run the Yorkshire Marathon last year off pretty low mileage (3.09, 2nd marathon after a 3.21 in 2014).

I mainly did 4 runs each week, with a few weeks of 5 runs with weekly totals averaging 38miles in last 8 weeks peaking at 47miles. Those 4-5 runs included 1 day "speed" reps at half marathon pace (i.e. 4 x 1.5miles or 3 x 2miles building to 2 x 3miles). 1 day medium long run at marathon pace building to 10miles. 1 day long run closing with marathon pace so building up to 20 miles with last 5 at marathon pace. Other 1-2 runs were very easy 4 to 6 miles.

So two of those sessions are similar to the plan you linked to, the Yasso 800s are more likely your 10k- 1 hour pace (they'd be my 5k pace). 

For me the marathon pace sessions really helped with endurance - my half time was 1.29 and usually best case scenario is 2 x half mara plus 10 mins, so I think I was pretty close to optimum endurance off that low a mileage. (post race they send you funny stats including the fact I passed 307 runners and was passed by 4 in the last 5km).

So that sort of supports your approach and with you running at least 90 seconds faster than me at 5k - times that by 8 and you should be close to sub 3. Having said all that I think I had the bare minimum of training and this year I'm running 5 days a week building to 6 and want to average 50+ miles to stand any chance of personally going sub 3. Good Luck - Yorkshire is certainly a fast course. 

 JuneBob 07 May 2019
In reply to Roadrunner6:

That Facebook group is good, except the miles thing. I'm all about km, I need to learn the min/miles to get full value out of that group!

I guess with Brexit, those miles aren't being replaced any time soon either.

OP ablackett 08 May 2019
In reply to Roadrunner6:

Thanks the Sub 3 fb group looks good.  Lots of similar opinions on there.

OP ablackett 08 May 2019
In reply to ablackett:

Update - I have entered the Yorkshire Marathon and bought a pair of road running shoes, so i'm committed now!

I'm going to do my first marathon pace run about 7km on Friday after work as the roads are flat there and see how it feels.

Thanks for the supportive suggestions, bah to the folk who say it's probably not possible.  I think that 3:05ish is probably more realistic but i'm going to give it the best crack I can with the time I have and see what happens.

 mountainbagger 08 May 2019
In reply to ablackett:

I'm not as fast as you, but off the back of a 19:30 5K best, I managed a 3h18 marathon off a 3 runs a week plan (with some core training and cycling to work amongst that).

By using the same multiple on your 17:45 5K, I get almost bang on 3 hours, so it sounds plausible (all other things being equal!) particularly if the marathon training gets you fitter than you are now.

My plan had one 10K/half marathon pace/marathon pace run between 3 and 10 miles (shorter runs were nearer 10K pace, 8 - 10 milers were MP/HMP), one interval session (8 - 10 x 400m or 6 - 8 x 800m or 4 - 6 x 1200m or 3 - 4 x 1600m) and one long run between 10 and 20 miles. It was a plan meant for people who did other exercise/cross-trained.

Anyway, good luck. I think you can do it especially if all the other variables are good for the day (weather, other runners, nutrition/hydration, injuries, well-executed taper, etc.). Hope this helps

 The New NickB 08 May 2019
In reply to ablackett:

Chris Finnil, one of the ever presents at the London Marathon, ran a 2:59 this year aged 60+ He has run 37 of his 39 London Marathons sub 3, including as fast as 2:29. He claims to have never run more than 40 miles in a week.

I only tried a couple of times and never quite managed it, just little things not going quite right. I’m not blessed with your sort of pace, so have had to use decent mileage to get faster. 

Of course with three sessions a week, you really need to make them count. I think the 10-12 mile run at MP is a great marathon session, I’d only do a long run every other week, but get up to 20 miles pretty quickly and do the last five miles of every long run at MP, the week you don’t do a long run do two 10-12 mile MP pace runs. Give yourself some flexibility with the other run, easy if you feel you need it, or maybe parkrun with a long easy warm up and cool down. You could swap some of the MP runs for racing half marathon sometimes.

 Ian Parnell 08 May 2019
In reply to ablackett:

Great that you've entered Yorkshire - fast flat course with just one short hill at 0.5 miles and 25.5 miles (unfortunately uphill at 25.5!) A few quiet spots but plenty of crowd support otherwise. I think they have a sub 3 pacer too. 


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