UKC

Evening runners, I just thought I'd get your advice on electrolytes, please. I usually run marathons and sometimes get cramp afterwards, but rarely in the race.

Do you think I need to take a strong (stronger) electrolyte drink? I usually use the SIS Go Electrolyte drink with its 36g of carbs per each 500 ml serving. However, it is hard to get an exact view on how much electrolyte to have. I don't want to just take some salt due to health concerns. With the SIS drink, it says you have .53g of salt per 500ml serving (when added to that amount of water, of course). Would that be about right? 

Thanks for your time. 

In reply to thelostjockey:

The SiS Hydro tablets I use have 0.87g of salt per 500ml made up, as well as B vitamins and minerals. No energy to speak of (7 kCal). Not sure what your health concerns are, not many people are sensitive to salt - but we all have to suffer the consequences in our dietary advice. If you are sweating you need to replace salt!

In reply to thelostjockey:

Given there's no evidence from a gazillion studies that cramp has anything to do with dehydration or electrolyte balance, no, I'd say get your training right and you won't get cramp. 

In reply to thelostjockey:

Hi, I asked the question on here a while ago with the same issue and I honestly think it’s a training thing and training at the same intensity that you run the races at is important. An example I ran a tough 28km fell race on Sunday with 1300m ascent and suffered with a few crampy twinges  in the last few miles and yesterday ran a slow 50km at ultra pace in prep for a race I’ve got coming up and suffered no cramp whatsoever, I stupidly had to ration my water yesterday for the last 15km so ended up quite dehydrated but still didn’t get any. 

In reply to thelostjockey:

I find popping something in your mouth and cramp seems to disappear. Might be a jelly baby, the last dregs of water, but seems that it just takes the body's mind off it - almost like it's psychosomatic. Then try and run as smoothly as possible.

I am having electrolyte this morning though, though that may have more to do with an extra beer or 3 last night.

In reply to Nic Barber:

This works  for me too, at Manchester marathon this year I had a gel in my hand for the last 10km and every time I  felt a twinge had a little bit and seemed to keep it at bay for a while.

In reply to Levy_danny:

You ran a race-pace 28km on Sunday then 50km on Thursday....I need to move myself down my mental ladder of comparative ability!!

In reply to thelostjockey:

I'd give it a go to see what happens. If you go too strong on electrolytes you'll soon be found out. 

The whole 'electrolytes don't help with cramp' research seems very blinkered to me. We know that fatigue is a factor in cramp - which explains why people above are correctly stating that training more will help. We also know that electrolytes help with hydration, and that hydration impacts on athletic performance. We know that a decrease in athletic performance is associated with fatigue. So following this logic why aren't electrolytes a factor in reducing cramp, a symptom of fatigue?

No one's saying they're the magic bullet - which is perhaps what the research sets out to show - but electrolytes work for enough people to indicate that they may have some effect.

In reply to Mr Fuller:

Because human physiology doesn't always neatly flow logic?

The studies aren't "blinkered" they just looked as the association between people who got cramp and people who didn't, and then checked their hydration and electrolyte level and there were no correlations.

Don't get me wrong, getting enough(not too much) fluids with the right balance will, as you say, improve your performance but just *probably* won't make a hoot of difference to how much cramp you get. 

In reply to Alasdair Fulton:

So what does cause cramp? Does anyone actually know? Obviously it happens when fatigued, but are there any steps you can take to avoid it, other than by avoiding fatigue?

In reply to Alasdair Fulton:

This is bad news for those of us with long history of bodging through on inadequate training 😁

In reply to Alasdair Fulton:

Interesting, I started getting cramp (upper legs) in my early 40's during or after long mountain bike rides, as I got older it got worse, more regular, more painful, and after all activities. It never stopped me doing anything but certainly got to the point where I was dreading it starting. A couple of years ago I stumbled on a YouTube video by a very unlikely looking cyclist who compared several different easily available electrolyte drinks for actual content versus cost etc, the one that came out on top was by mineral republic, I tried it and it works for me, I use it religiously now and haven't had cramp at all since I started using it. 

In reply to Clwyd Chris:

I wonder whether it is possible to get a placebo effect from electrolyte products.

In reply to Robert Durran:

For me no chance, seriously on several occasions it had me up in the night in tears it was that painful, it used to last for about 15 minutes. 

In reply to Clwyd Chris:

That sounds very like my experience of thigh cramp. Either around an hour after a big day or occasionally during the night. A completely different level of pain to anything else I have ever experienced and which I would do virtually anything to avoid (which means that for the last eight years or so I've always held back from the levels if exertion and fatigue which cause it - only 2 attacks since 2014).

But the placebo effect can be extremely powerful. 

But I'd be prepared to try anything - might order some mineral republic.

In reply to Clwyd Chris:

N:1 

Who knows, glad it works for you. I'm not saying there's no possibility that electrolytes / hydration levels could help and the available research has missed something, just that as far as good quality research goes, there's been no link shown.

Did you electrolyte drink also have energy in it?  Could you have completely exhausted the energy store of the specific muscles that were cramping and then just pushed them too far?

I had something similar when training for my first (and only) mountain race - my hip flexors would always die on me before anything else, which lead to poor gait and knee pain. Better fuelling and pacing seemed to get rid of it.

In reply to steveriley:

Quite!

In reply to Robert Durran: Here is a recent paper - it is open access on the BJMS site

Schwellnus MP: Cause of Exercise Associated Muscle Cramps (EAMC) — altered neuromuscular control, dehydration or electrolyte depletion?

British Journal of Sports Medicine 2009;43:401-408.

https://bjsm.bmj.com/content/bjsports/43/6/401.full.pdf

In reply to Clwyd Chris:

There’s nothing like getting woken up from a lovely sleep by savage cramp is there haha 

In reply to SouthernSteve:

Thanks. So it looks like the cause is probably "altered neuromuscular control". One remedy I did try (without noticeable benefit) was a spoonful of vinegar which was supposed to shock the nervous system in some way. Some researchers in the US has actually marketed "shots" to carry and take if you felt an attack coming on.

But is there really anything that be done other than avoid extreme fatigue?

In reply to Robert Durran:

I was going to mention the American use of 'pickle juice' to stop cramp - and I have not tried it - on the understanding that the effect was mental/nervous because it worked too quickly to be physiological. During the last few years I have managed to get out on long mountain days more often, and become fitter, but got taken out of the Welsh 3000s by desperate cramps in both legs whilst descending Tryfan. 3 years later (ie last month) I got completely exhausted on a 24 mile/11,000 ft day with no sign of cramp either during or after. I think training is the key, but I do use hydration products just in case, and make sure any food is salty...

In reply to petemeads:

Yes, that's it. I tried apple vinegar. It didn't seem.very practical because the idea was to take a gulp as soon as you felt an attack in time yo stop it.

Does that suggest there is something odd going on. You need to be at a certain level of fitness, but at that level can push as hard as you like. Level of fitness being the key rather than level of fatigue.

I'd pay a lot for a drug that would prevent cramp and so remove the horrible fear if it on every biggish day.

In reply to Robert Durran:

You have my sympathy. I have experienced the same since my late 40s. I'm in my late 60s now. None of the research I've come across offers adequate explanation or much hope of remedy. I wish it would as it would massively improve my quality of life! Interestingly my father similarly suffered cramps, perhaps there's a genetic element?

Personally, I find that not taking in enough fluids during exercise is more likely to result in cramping episodes. It's often hard to get enough fluid in during a day's climbing.

A couple of months ago I started taking magnesium tablets on the recommendation of a runner friend. I've experienced much reduced frequency and severity of cramping episodes despite having had a number of days of hard (for me) exercise. It's hard for me to accept that this is solely due to the placebo effect but who knows.