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Foggy Winter Fell Running

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 c line 26 Dec 2018

I'm rather new to fell running but generally consider myself to be an adept backpacker, even if my sense of direction is a bit shite.

I've been playing around on my own but basically I cannot figure out: how ON EARTH do people manage to navigate through the fog/mist on nonexistent trails in v. cold conditions? I've had to turn back a couple times now after almost getting lost and getting soaked half through. Apart from better gear, which I'm working on, how can I navigate more efficiently so that I don't get lost at night in the Cumbrian winter  

Gear: compass, waterproof map, garmin watch, trail shoes, trail pack and unreliable rain jacket

Any advice or criticism welcome!! Merry xmas one and all  

 

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 PaulTclimbing 26 Dec 2018
In reply to c line:

Do good weather races.  Follow the ones in front. Do circular routes. They'll then be variations of N=0, E -90, s-180 and w-270. all variations in between. Practice that, should cover it but no guarantees. Or GPS watch. you can retrace your steps if lost with find my way back facility.

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Removed User 26 Dec 2018
In reply to c line:

I often found it useful to ID the local clubs  vest and follow one of them.........

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OP c line 26 Dec 2018

Yes and yes. These are both great. But the thing is, I can already run in good conditions, I know how to follow people in front of me, etc. My problem is going from this to tougher conditions! Like, are there techniques etc I am completely oblivious to or does it just come in time? I don't want to have to rely on other people or good weather to run!

 Dave Todd 27 Dec 2018
In reply to c line:

My two kids and other half have really got into orienteering over the last year.  I've been along to a few events and some training evenings and I've begun to realise just how rubbish I am at navigating - compared to the average orienteer.  I've spent years of my life walking and running in hills, in all weathers, day and night (including stuff like High Peak Marathon etc.)  But I'm becoming aware just how much more there is to learn.  You might consider hooking up with your local orienteering club and doing some of their training.

 Wainers44 27 Dec 2018
In reply to c line:

My advice would be to pick your training location wisely. Use areas with plenty of good catch features so that if you do get locationally challenged it doesn't really matter. In the Lakes just beware of the crags. Unlike Scotland the rivers aren't hazards of the same seriousness as you can normally run downstream and off the hills quite quickly to avoid them. 

Just run more and the skills and confidence will come. Running in fog is great as you can't see how far you still have to go.... 

 DancingOnRock 27 Dec 2018
In reply to c line:

Pace counting and time reckoning are your tools. 

You need to go out in good weather and learn to map read using compass only and time/pace counting. Ignore all the features around you that would be hidden by fog. 

How long does it take to cover 500m on rough flat ground? What about a slight hill? Steep downhill? Etc etc. You need to learn them. Same way as you should learn what your 5k, 10k, half, full, hard, easy, and VO2max paces should feel like without using a watch for pacing. It’ll take a while spend a long time over it. 

 EuanM 27 Dec 2018
In reply to c line:

Hate to say it but as a back-up a fully charged mobile in a ziplock bag with some sort of mapping app can be really useful. Even just used as a position check or a psychological crutch. 

 plyometrics 27 Dec 2018
In reply to Removed UserDeleted bagger:

That would be the wrong choice if you ended up following me...

Moley 27 Dec 2018
In reply to c line:

I always found fog incredibly disorientating, distance and direction have no meaning. I would run up the hill behind my house, which I did several times a week for 20 years and within 10 minutes wonder where the hell I was!

The only thing that works is run to the map and compass and have faith that they will put you in the right place. I wouldn't worry about it, but practice equals confidence.

 PaulTclimbing 27 Dec 2018
In reply to c line:

Because you've posted on here, you've already got a high level of self preservation. So start very early/dawn in the morning and head out in the fog on a 15 mile run and see how far you get. When out of your comfort zone, do a further two miles, then see what happens. Use your map and common sense. If you end up wrong like the complete wrong valley in the lakes like Wasdale when it should be Langdale, you've got the rest of the day to find your way back or catch the bus etc. Its what most people probably do. Also do a course in Mountain leadership nav etc before.

 

Moley 27 Dec 2018
In reply to PaulTclimbing:

> Because you've posted on here, you've already got a high level of self preservation. So start very early/dawn in the morning and head out in the fog on a 15 mile run and see how far you get. When out of your comfort zone, do a further two miles, then see what happens. Use your map and common sense. If you end up wrong like the complete wrong valley in the lakes like Wasdale when it should be Langdale, you've got the rest of the day to find your way back or catch the bus etc. Its what most people probably do. Also do a course in Mountain leadership nav etc before.

Had to chuckle at that, remember learning my map/compass skills by running round and round in circles in the fog over the Elan valleys - that was 30 years ago - but the lessons were well learned and worked.

 The New NickB 28 Dec 2018
In reply to c line:

Usually you can work out the key points where you must not get it wrong (in advance), bearings, pacing and knowing key features that you might cross will get you through it. A GPS watch will help you home if all else fails, but don't forget to DQ yourself if this is required.

 TobyA 28 Dec 2018
In reply to c line:

I'm really not a runner, but are you happy navigating over difficult terrain in poor visibility when backpacking? If so is that you're just going too fast when running? I dabbled in orienteering a bit years ago and my mate who I did it with is a way better runner than me but he was forever running past control points, while I huffed and puffed and jogged behind but was much better at map reading as a result!

 Michael Hood 28 Dec 2018
In reply to TobyA:

Agreeing with what you've said...

I've been orienteering for many years. One thing I've found is that when I'm less fit (or should that be more fat ), I can't run as fast (surprise). But it does mean that I've got more time to get the navigation right and when I make mistakes I haven't run past by so much.

However, overall, I'm still quicker when I can run faster.

The top orienteers (usually with much younger legs) run at ridiculous speeds over rough terrain including uphill AND get the navigation spot on.

 Marek 28 Dec 2018
In reply to Dave Todd:

> ...  You might consider hooking up with your local orienteering club and doing some of their training.

I'd second this. Accurate navigation in various conditions requires quite a range of techniques and orienteering is the best way to learn. I always found some of the 'odder' events particularly good like night orienteering (micronavigation, pacecounting, maintaining map contact...) and some other one I can't remember the name of where you don't get to carry a map - there's one at each control point and you have to memorise to route to the next CP (route planning, feature memory...).

One thing I learned in doing MMs was to always maintain map contact, even on long apparently easy sections. Identify a set of features you should encounter over the course of the next few minutes and use them to sanity check that you on the right route. You should never be more than a few minutes from each of these which means you never go far wrong. You might make a mistake but you'll never get lost. And in mountains at least you always have the 'direction of the slope' as a poor-visibility sanity check (flat featureless forests and dunes can be a nightmare in bad visibility if you make a mistake).

 Simon Caldwell 02 Jan 2019
In reply to c line:

I'd certainly recommend against all the "follow someone else" suggestions! Sometimes they'll be heading the right way, sometimes they won't, but even if you get lucky then what do you do when they accelerate and you lose them?

The quickest way to learn is to go on a course, there are many available, https://www.nav4.co.uk/ are particularly good. If you'd rather do it yourself, then the basics can be found online or in a book, then just go out and practice. Lots. Don't leave it until the weather's bad, but start in good conditions, make sure you know at all times where you are on the map. Pick a feature from the map and navigate to it - a GPS will tell you whether you're right, or just an app that gives you current grid ref. When you get lost, use map and compass (and your eyesight) to try to work out where you went wrong, where you might be, get yourself back on track. GPS can help if all else fails  ut don;t got to it at first sign of trouble or you won't learn.

As already suggested, orienteering is a good way to learn, though perhaps better for micro nav than macro. And there are a few longer events that are great for this sort of thing, eg http://www.minimountainmarathon.co.uk/

 

 mbh 02 Jan 2019
In reply to c line:

On Bodmin Moor in fog and/or darkness, with a very basic GPS watch that gave me distance travelled only, I have tried following a pre-planned route in a restricted area by running on a compass bearing for whatever was the distance of each leg of the route, to see if I could end up at the place I should be at. Generally, I was pretty close but found that I consistently veered off to the left a bit. Don't know why. 

I did it in summer, knowing there were no great hazards around me and knowing that the worst would be that the I would be stuck out for a night or have a few miles further to go to get back to the car.

I now find that a phone with OS  maps on it is a godsend for time likes that. Except when the map won't load.

 tlouth7 02 Jan 2019
In reply to c line:

One thing orienteers learn is that paths are not the only linear features. Other options include:

-spurs (sloping ridgelines). You can count these off as you traverse a slope, or ascend/descend along them. Height can be judged by how steep or prominent the spur is.

-re-entrants. The opposite of spurs, where the slope is concave. The classic example would be where a stream runs down the slope, but when you get better even a very shallow curve in the contour lines can be enough.

-contour lines. If you strike off a path at known height and maintain that height as you traverse then you know how high up you are when you hit the next linear feature.

-fall line. This is the path a ball would make if it rolled down the hill, which is perpendicular to the contour lines on the map. On a large, featureless slope a bearing up or down the fall line (or a spur etc) may show how far round you are.

-dry stone walls, edges of woodland etc.

Generally navigation is a process of moving along linear features, and then striking off on a bearing until you hit the next one. Then move along until you hit some feature that tells you exactly where you are. All the time you should have a sense of roughly where you are, and what you expect to see next (and in how long). Going out with someone more experienced and talking everything through can be very valuable, as can practicing fog nav in good conditions (basically avoid looking up at any distant features).

If you become truly lost then options include running on a bearing towards some major feature such as a road, or retracing your steps, or I guess your watch should output a location which can be transferred to the map.

 

 alicia 02 Jan 2019
In reply to c line:

As far as getting the practice in when it's foggy out without getting hypothermia, you could always go out for a map and compass run and carry a running pack with a lightweight warm jacket in a sealed bag. Then practice getting faster at map/compass without the worry that getting it badly wrong could rapidly become disaster! 

I second the suggestions that knowing your pace is key. For me that was a big missing piece in learning nav. Also agree with whoever said it's important to stay aware of where you are on the map even in navigationally easy sections.

pasbury 03 Jan 2019
In reply to alicia:

> I second the suggestions that knowing your pace is key. For me that was a big missing piece in learning nav. Also agree with whoever said it's important to stay aware of where you are on the map even in navigationally easy sections.

Knowing your pace can be either in minutes per km or paces per 100m, the latter more useful in orienteering micro-navigation. knowing how these vary according to slope and terrain is the hardest bit!

 


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