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Hill running nav

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 girlymonkey 04 Aug 2020

I am generally pretty fair weather in my hill running, if it's manky I usually run on lower trails closer to home. I tend to assume when I am up high that if the clag comes in and I don't know the path then I become a hill walker and do usual nav. 

If I did want to keep running when clag comes down and I don't know the route, what would I do differently to walking? I'm presuming a bearing is tricky due to running being less smooth and needing to watch feet more, so would guess at a rougher bearing aiming for a good catching feature? Do you know your running pacing in the way you would with walking or rely on distance from watches? 

Just musing as it's foul outside and thinking about what I would do if I bothered to get dressed and be hardcore! Lol

 compost 04 Aug 2020
In reply to girlymonkey:

If running for fun or training, it's a great opportunity to practice faster nav and, like you said, bigger features. I also find that breaking each section down to smaller features mentally works - this can mean some more prep from google earth and studying the maps in advance. Pacing kinda works but can be so variable that I find that it's part of the background context rather than something to rely on.

If racing, the harsh lesson I've learned is don't assume that locals know the route. Experience suggests that following CLEM vests on Pendle can lead to the wrong valley very quickly and is a surefire way from top 20 to 100th position in a race!

Edit: the other thing for me is an acceptance that more accurate but less fast is almost always better than the other way round!

Post edited at 11:10
 Herdwickmatt 04 Aug 2020
In reply to girlymonkey:

So I would say it’s pretty much the same as walking nav but harder because of increased speed and the difficulties of running and map reading at the same time.

Something to consider is thumbing the map. Holding your place your map as you go, to do it you probs need to fold your map up into smaller squares (I find Harvey’s waterproof maps good for this or use old race maps).
 

If you want to run on a bearing a good compass is very important, a needle which stays steady and settles quickly really helps. So something like Moscow orienteering compasses are amazing but pricey.

Map memory is important,and remembering catching features.

I’m sure others will chip in with more

Maybe try some orienteering or mountain marathons to hone your skills etc

this guys nav tasks are good https://m.youtube.com/user/fellrunningguide

 r0b 04 Aug 2020
In reply to girlymonkey:

There is a free e-book on navigation for runners from the FRA website:

https://fellrunner.org.uk/documents/mountain_navigation.pdf

 tlouth7 04 Aug 2020
In reply to girlymonkey:

One thing you have to do when navigating and running is to abandon the idea of always knowing exactly where you are. This is disconcerting but with a bit of practice makes everything easier. If you are following a ridge then all you need is a good feature to define your next decision point, and a rough idea of how long it will take you to get there. Perhaps you will drop off the ridge when it flattens out, or the ridge-line bends left to some bearing. Now you can focus on running because you have a nice, simple rule to tell you when you next have to think.

Of course in clag you can't use distant or vague features; even things like "the third stream/path off to the right" are risky if you can't be sure of counting each one you pass.

Pacing while running is perfectly possible, it gets unreliable on uneven or steep ground, although it is probably less necessary in the latter case as you will have more terrain clues to use.

Remember you can always slow down when you get to a complex decision point, and then speed up again on a simpler section!

 mbh 04 Aug 2020
In reply to girlymonkey:

The best option may depend on how fancy your watch is, how long you will be out and how far from safety you would be.

Now that I rarely run more than 10 miles (well, 8 actually and that's rare) I confess to taking my phone with me if nav is going to be tricky and if in doubt checking where I am using the OS app. When I get round to learning how to put a breadcrumb route on my new watch, I will do that too.

Often I don't have my phone or fear that I wouldn't be able to rely on it, so if going to the moor then normally I study the map carefully before I go and do my best to remember it. That means remembering anything that will help me when later I am out there, whether, near such as field boundaries, gates, streams, woods, ponds, tors etc, or far (tors again, often) in case the clag lifts or isn't there. Just that plus looking at the distance on my watch is often enough, providing I remember how far it is between landmarks X and Y. 

If I remember to bring a compass and have also remembered bearings, that helps too (enormously!). I always leave a compass in a pocket of my running vest, all the better to ensure that I have one if I need it.

If I were to attempt anything long on tricky terrain I would anyway be so slow as to make it daft not to bring a map, the phone and a power bank for it, unless I wanted to up the challenge.

 Rob N 04 Aug 2020
In reply to girlymonkey:

I use the OS map app for this, it just means I don’t have to keep stopping and checking things, a quick glance at my phone every now and then keeps me on track.

I have my map compass and another GPS in my vest for back up and try to pick out features to reassure myself every now and then. 

I’ve tried other ways before but this is the only way I can manage to actually “run” without a lot of stopping and starting.

In reply to girlymonkey:

Navigation and map reading is a basic skill for all fell runners, orienteers, mountaineers. Esp in winter and bad weather. Just get more practice and learn to do it quickly until it becomes second nature.

DC

 BuzyG 04 Aug 2020
In reply to girlymonkey:

I'm not sure there is much distinction between Running Nav and Walking Nav.  Maybe because my top speed is jogging pace for younger folk.  In fine weather it's a simple case of memorise the route and carry Map compass and Phone with OS App just in case of forgetting the route, but seldom needing them.

In poor visibility on the moors it's completely different. You have to Navigate or you will quickly be going the wrong way.  Best solution I have found is to have my compass around my neck, tucked under my shoulder strap, so it doesn't wack me in the face.  Have my phone in my hand with the OS App Running.  

Then at any point I'm unsure of my position I use the OS App as I would a paper map and set a bearing from it on to my compass, which I then follow.  The benefits being...

1. The OS App Knows my current GPS Location, so the map is always centred. So much faster than paper map for obtaining a bearing.

2. Once set, the Compass bearing is the simplest thing in my kit list to follow over rough ground. So much easier to glance at and follow than the phone or GPS.

Works for me any way and I have tried many methods.

OP girlymonkey 04 Aug 2020
In reply to Dave Cumberland:

I am a winter mountian leader, so pretty confident in my general nav! Obviously, any of us can make mistakes, but if I am out then I am not worried about getting lost as I can become a walker and navigate happily. It's more looking for the running specific tips to keep moving more as a runner than a walker.

OP girlymonkey 04 Aug 2020
In reply to girlymonkey:

I use my phone a bit for nav but it's a really bulky one (which is fine as it's designed to survive being dropped and swimming) so it's normally burried in my bag. Maybe I need to run with bag and belt so the phone can be in the belt and be more accessible. I tie a compass and tiny map in tiny map case to the front of my shoulder straps on the bag and store them in the wee gel pockets, so they become more convenient to reach for. On short runs, I probably do use the phone more as I am not carrying as much so use the belt instead which makes my phone more accessible. 

 DancingOnRock 04 Aug 2020
In reply to Rob N:

It’s funny but I found using the phone worse as trying to keep it dry and the touchscreen working was a nightmare. Also turning it off and on again was a faff. 
 

Although it’s very good for orienting yourself when it’s all gone wrong. 
 

The great thing about OSMaps is you can print off the area you need and put it in a bag (and have a few in your pack in case the wind and rain decide to take it out of your hands). 
 

So I’d advise both. Assuming not in a race. 
 

Plenty of practice with the map and pace counting still works if you learn how many paces to 100m when running at different paces. 
 

The Garmin watch has an OSGrid field by Mark RP so you could use that as well. 

Post edited at 12:44
 compost 04 Aug 2020
In reply to girlymonkey:

There seems to be more comfort in using phones here than I expected! Years of debate in fellrunning circles have probably meant I don't use it as well as I could/ should. Guess it depends on route length and ensuring you have enough battery to call for help if needed and a backup map/ compass in case it dies

The other thing for me is practice - it's not often claggy enough at the right times to practice, so I've done a few simulation runs in the dark - nav in the dark can be just as hard and can be practiced every day!

 Lrunner 04 Aug 2020
In reply to girlymonkey:

I'm a winter ml too, but I find getting lost is much more likely when I run. For me planning is the most important thing. I can usually tick off features as i go then even in the clag. 

Forests though always get lost in them

Lawrence

 SouthernSteve 04 Aug 2020
In reply to girlymonkey:

Really studying the map before you go is the difference for me. If you have visualised the route from the map then you are just checking it when out (particularly for a race that you haven't recce'd), whereas for walking you can be more casual and spend some time at the time.

I do have a grid reference widget on my Garmin watch if I am confused or we are having a friendly husband/wife disagreement about where we are (a really good tip that I got on here).

 mbh 04 Aug 2020
In reply to DancingOnRock:

> It’s funny but I found using the phone worse as trying to keep it dry and the touchscreen working was a nightmare. Also turning it off and on again was a faff. 

My eldest stepson, who was built where they make athletic gods,  is an open water swimming instructor, when he's not a maths lecturer. For my last birthday he gave me a YOSII water-tight transparent bag for phones where you stab at it from the outside with your wet paws. It really works. I have only used it for running and walking in persistent rain, but it reliably allows me to use the phone.

For the turning it on and off again thing, that's where a power bank comes in, tailored to the demands of your phone, the length of your route, and/your tolerance for weight or another object about your person.  

In reply to girlymonkey:

> I am............ It's more looking for the running specific tips to keep moving more as a runner than a walker.

In that case, go orienteering and try to run as fast as Martin Bagness! Running at speed while navigating takes a lot of brain power and observation, so fatigue really slows you down. Give it a whirl.

DC

 DancingOnRock 04 Aug 2020
In reply to mbh:

Yes. I want to reference it, then put it in my pack and get moving. It’s just not really a solution for me. I have a power bank I’m going to try the DW app on the watch and see what that’s like but think I have to pay for it. 

 nniff 04 Aug 2020
In reply to girlymonkey:

Still count your paces, but make informed adjustments.  Know your overall average pace, including nav and general faff.  Then establish your average time to cover a distance once you're moving, so that if it should take you 10 minutes to get to a point and 12-13 minutes later you're still going, something's wrong.  At 6kph, 1 minute is 100m, so 13 minutes instead of 10 would put you 300m past where you should be.  Be prepared to stop and check.  Usually faster overall than going the wrong way and having to come back. 

If you're heading towards a linear feature aim off, so that when you hit it you know which way you need to turn to reach a specific point.

Use the wind as a rough guide in open country.  If the wind is on your left and it starts to be in your face, you might be veering off course.   

Be very aware of contours - you'll notice changes in angle more readily when you run and use them for reference.

 Nic Barber 04 Aug 2020
In reply to girlymonkey:

Some good info on here already. I stay away from phone and GPS, though OS locate app and the 'find back' function on my watch is always a back-up if all goes tits up.

Get a compass that settles well. A Silva ranger is fine when walking but useless when bouncing up and down on the run. Silva/Moscow do stable needles in base-plate and thumb compass formats. If you're used to taking accurate bearings, make sure you get one with a proper bezel, and avoid the orienteering-specific coloured segment ones. Compasses can get expensive if stable and fast, but I managed to get a stable baseplate for <£20 (I now use a couple of Moscow thumb compasses about £30-35)

Practice, but make sure you practice good practice!

Ian Winterburn has a couple of good articles that were published in The Fellrunner in 2012:
http://www.everythingoutdoors.co.uk/navigation-for-fell-runners/
http://www.everythingoutdoors.co.uk/navigation-tips-part-2/?doing_wp_cron=1...

Dave Taylor (Fellrunningguide's) videos are pretty good, though I sometimes I disagree with some of his elucidations.

Dave and Ian (and others) do mountain navigation courses. The FRA also do a navigation course or two throughout the year - see the FRA website https://fellrunner.org.uk/navigation.php

The 'mountain navigation' booklet on the FRA website - though I haven't read it - will be good as Bilbo wrote it: https://fellrunner.org.uk/documents/mountain_navigation.pdf

If you can find the Spring 2019 Fellrunner (it's not online yet) I wrote an article in there about navigation while racing (I got Dave and Ian to check it first!)

But most of all - laugh at your mistakes. What the navigation gods have given to me, they have also taken away!

Post edited at 14:02
Roadrunner6 04 Aug 2020
In reply to girlymonkey:

Keep it simple

handrail

aim off

good map memory and good terrain memory

an altimeter helps when traversing and descending. I raced Jura, finished 4th, in horrific weather and my altimeter was stopping me from descending too far past bealachs.

be able to work out a bearing fast.

I’d say most fell runners Can’t navigate. They think they can but only get out the map when lost.

seriously the best thing you can do is go and get lost. Practice relocation strategies and dong rush them. 

maybe do some orienteering too.

re distance id use time to roughly estimate but it’s very rough. 

 Ridge 04 Aug 2020
In reply to Herdwickmatt:

> If you want to run on a bearing a good compass is very important, a needle which stays steady and settles quickly really helps. So something like Moscow orienteering compasses are amazing but pricey.

Orientsport do a cheaper version that does the job very well. Just remember if you're right handed you need a left hand compass...

I've gone off phone mapping. Although they're really convenient most of the time they're a faff in the wet, I'm scared of losing it and having seen how quickly a battery goes from full to dead in sub-zero temperatures I'm wary of them.

For running I do a google earth recce in 3D, really useful for confirming that paths actually exist, you can identify landmarks like patches of scree or dense vegetation and really get a feel for topography.

I use an A4 photocopy of the map (once you get used to the scale Harveys are good for showing the topography) and write on the Northings and Eastings so I can use grid refs, and write on any bearings or other useful info. It then goes in an A4 clear cover and sits in the left pocket of my running vest along with the compass (which is held in a loop of elastic if it's not clipped to my thumb because I'm paranoid about losing stuff)

If I'm running for myself and not in an organised fell race I'll also use my GPS watch, with a data field for OS Grid so I can locate myself, Lap Pace gives a rough idea of how long to point X, distance travelled from the start can be used in place of pace counting if required. Surprisingly the GPS elevation reading (I don't have a barometric altimeter) is pretty close to what the map says on the open fell (less so in valleys/woodland), so that's useful if running on an undulating ridge in the clag.

I'm actually enjoying navigating for myself again.

 Herdwickmatt 04 Aug 2020
In reply to girlymonkey:

I think a lot of it comes from confidence (which can also lead to trouble!), get out practice and once you’ve been lost a few times you learn a little, and you are less worried about being lost. Also if running for fun I would never pace count unless I was doing specific race practice. 
 

And I’d second roadrunner6 recommendation for a good altimeter 

 Marek 04 Aug 2020
In reply to girlymonkey:

A few points I might have missed in the thread but are worth thinking about...

1. Differentiate between competitive running & navigating (maximise speed, no GPS) vs. non-competitive (minimise getting lost). There are different solution for those two cases.

2. When I was doing competitive fell-running/orienteering, the key thing I found was to be able to judge distance traveled from 'gait' and time. I would regularly go out in different terrains and 'calibrate' my pacing so that I could think "OK, slow-to-medium run, 1.5km distance equals X minutes." With practice I could do that quickly and pretty accurately. I also tried a personalised 'Naismiths Rule' (i.e., minutes per km + minutes per contour line) but I found the first method more accurate. It also was better at compensating for tiredness and varying terrain (e.,g tussocks vs. short-cropped grass).

3. Your nav skill should also include methods to quickly spot when you've gone wrong, e.g., if running down a ridge, be aware of the expected topology of the ridge (e.g., steeper on the left, curving slightly to the right, big boulder in 30 seconds...). Good fast navigation is about spotting & correcting mistakes quickly.

 BuzyG 04 Aug 2020
In reply to Lrunner:

Agree, Dense forests when forced to follow a winding track and no GPS signal are still black art, based on knowing where you started and memorising the route and pacing to the end, whether night day or fog. 

The last time I got lost was four years ago in a pine forest.  I had a perfectly good working phone with GPS and a compass and my wife had a back up phone and compass.  Lesson learned, even on a lovely summers day on a walk with the Mrs take a paper map and know how to use it. You should never rely on modern tech to function as you expect.

Wrt the OP's question though, using available tech makes navigation quicker, under most conditions, so is best used as the primary nav when in a hurry, should your inbuilt learned instinct tell you you need to check the map.  Much as I love paper maps.

Post edited at 17:21
 nniff 04 Aug 2020
In reply to girlymonkey:

Another thing -get some spring toggles on a loop of shock cord for counting paces - 4 round ones on one loose end, and three different-shaped ones on the other end.  200, 400, 600, 800 metres on the round ones. Then one km, 2km and 3km on the others, which gives you a 4km leg overall.

 tlouth7 04 Aug 2020
In reply to Ridge:

> Just remember if you're right handed you need a left hand compass...

Why? It is normal to hold the compass and map in your dominant hand.

 Ridge 04 Aug 2020
In reply to tlouth7:

> Why? It is normal to hold the compass and map in your dominant hand.

Pretty every right hander I know (me included) hold the map in the left hand with compass on left thumb. 

Personal preference maybe, but it leaves the dominant hand free to rotate the bezel if putting in a bearing, or for adjusting kit, stuffing things in pockets or simply steadying yourself scrambling or going over stiles.

Post edited at 18:45
Roadrunner6 04 Aug 2020
In reply to Ridge:

I'd never thought about that, but yeah I tend to hold it in my left too.

 bouldery bits 04 Aug 2020
In reply to girlymonkey:

Generally, a lot of my experience comes from shared Nav when competing as a pair in MM's.

The main thing I have learned here is to ensure that you are always in a position to blame your partner when you're lost. 

OP girlymonkey 04 Aug 2020
In reply to bouldery bits:

> The main thing I have learned here is to ensure that you are always in a position to blame your partner when you're lost. 

A lot of good advice on this thread, but this is probably the most important top tip! Thanks!

 innes 04 Aug 2020
In reply to girlymonkey:

I'm crap at step-counting to guage distance (I always forget where I'm at, and on rough ground I'm hopeless).  Same with judging time....

To counter this I set up the 'Lap' settings my cheapo Garmin watch to disable 'Auto Lap' (e.g. normally every km). Instead, I use the 'Lap Button' and set a data field on the display to show 'Lap Distance' on the watch.  Then if I want to run a leg of X metres I just hit the Lap button and let the display tell me how far I've gone...

This way avoids needing to hold step counts in my head (much more pleasant!) and a cheap GPS runner's watch does the trick.  

 steveriley 04 Aug 2020
In reply to girlymonkey:

Don’t get yourself in such a state - food, cold, wet, etc - there’s no spare bandwidth for good nav. When all your energy is spent just getting through things, you’re vulnerable to mistakes. Revise your Plan B as you go. Nav tip, not based on nav!

Slower and accurate beats faster and wrong! I was on the hill this afternoon in full clag, fortunately on a good track and on a straightforward up and down route. Being well oriented set me pondering on the ways it could have gone wrong in a worse situation. For one thing I was surprised how much the wind swung around channelled by the hill profile. It was that kind of clag where there was generally a glow in the sky from the sun. A handy non compass backup 😀

 JohnBson 04 Aug 2020
In reply to girlymonkey:

I would always recommend navigation by building a picture of the terrain in your head and then checking off the points in a detailed story. This can be done at speed. Navigation to a bearing and pacing I've only found necessary when in truly appalling conditions. 

In running weather (ie not a whiteout blizzard) I sometimes use a compass preset to the bearing of a track junction I'm aiming for just to confirm a turn off on the move. Very occasionally I might use the lap function on my watch to measure distance in open featureless moorland or thick trees, particularly if a wrong turning would cause an inconvenient loss of elevation. 

Roadrunner6 04 Aug 2020
In reply to girlymonkey:

Going out with good orienteers is fascinating.

I'm an ML so comfortable navving and a fell runner so can get around a route fine, but when out with a top orienteer they are always 2-3 steps ahead of me and can work out the fastest way much quicker than I can.

It's really worth doing (when they restart), things like the 3 hour mini mountain marathons and such like.

Now in the US I never navigate, it'll be interesting to see how its gone down hill when I eventually have to again. 90% of our hikes/runs are below the tree line so its more just ticking off trail junctions and macro features. And then in the winter it's more about snow conditions and knowing where the trail goes (went) so you have a hope of being on the packed snow and not being chest deep in powder and not caught in some fir trap. I only just got my snowshoe from February when I stepped through the krummholz and got trapped but managed to free my foot and lost my snowshoe. I was maybe 4m from the trail but in the drifted snow stepped off it and was wallowing in deep powder.

 Marek 05 Aug 2020
In reply to JohnBson:

>... Navigation to a bearing and pacing I've only found necessary when in truly appalling conditions. 

I'd differ on this. After a couple of decades of MMs and similar events, I can think of very few when I didn't have to use running-on-bearings and distance estimation (by pace-counting or timing) some of the time. In the UK you're generally going to have to deal with running above the cloud line were visibility is less than 30m.

The thing with nav is that (a) you need a variety of techniques depending on terrain and conditions, and (b) you can't just read about them in a book (or UKC thread) and expect to be proficient - you have to go out and practice, practice, practice until they ALL become reasonably automatic. You'll typically be using one technique to get you from A to B, and another to cross-check that you've not made a mistake. If you want to be doing that at speed, they have to be well practiced and second nature.

 tlouth7 05 Aug 2020
In reply to Ridge:

How have I never noticed this? I thought I was special with my left handedness and left hand compass. My whole life is a lie!


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