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Marathon in 3 months...

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 Jim Houghton 31 Jan 2023

Hi all,

I've just been offered a London Marathon Place this morning. I've wanted to do a marathon for ages and this would work well for various reasons so I've said yes. I've never done a marathon before but have done a bunch of half-marathons, trail and road. Currently, I'd probably be able to do a half-marathon fairly comfortably in 1:35 or so but I'm only really doing 35k a week running... Max I've ever run in a single outing is 30k, but that was mainly in the hills.

Questions:

1) What sort of pace do you think I should be aiming for? I'm hoping I might go sub-4 hours...is this realistic at this notice?

2) Any suggestions on how quickly/much to increase weekly mileage?

Thanks all!

 Paul Sagar 31 Jan 2023
In reply to Jim Houghton:

There are loads of sensible marathon training plans out there, just google around and find one you think can suit your schedule.

Given your fitness background, 3 months is entirely do-able if you stick to the training plan you pick.

FWIW I only ever did 1 marathon (that was plenty for me, thanks). I'm a slow runner by nature, but managed 3h43m (it really clicked for me on the day). If you can do a half in 1:35 then sub-4 hour is definitely achievable for you. Maybe even go for sub 3:30.

 john arran 31 Jan 2023
In reply to Jim Houghton:

The HUGE difference I found between half and full marathon wasn't pace or even legs, it was food. I simply wasn't practised in eating while running and it took embarrassingly long to realise that was the problem.

I'd recommend starting very soon to experiment with gels or other snacks, to find what works for you and to accustoming your stomach to digesting stuff while running at a decent whack.

1
 wbo2 31 Jan 2023
In reply to Jim Houghton:  I got offered my first London place with about 2 weeks to go... this I do NOT recommend.  Given your back ground you should be in good shape to get round.  3 months = 12 weeks, minus 2 week taper, 10 weeks so given a 2 week on, one week off for long runs you should be able to 7 runs.  

  Try 25k this weeks, build up to 32,34.  Don't kill your self.. you're better off being 95% ready than overtrained/exhausted.  Pace for 1.40 times 2 + 10 minutes.

 Lhod 31 Jan 2023
In reply to wbo2:

>   I got offered my first London place with about 2 weeks to go... this I do NOT recommend. 

Just long enough to taper 😂

 Tom Briggs 31 Jan 2023
In reply to Jim Houghton:

I ran London last October (first road mara). I’d caution against going after a time if you’re looking at that kind of pace. It’s crazily busy and you will run significantly further than 26.2 miles!

It’s obviously an amazing event and a real privilege to run it.

 petemeads 31 Jan 2023
In reply to Jim Houghton:

wbo2 has nailed it, focus on the long runs and increase gently, 20 miles or a little more with 2 weeks to go. We didn't do food in the '80s but maybe worth trying a gel or two on a long run (earlier rather than later). 4 hours should be comfortable - you could try running with a slower start and faster finish on your longer runs, see how that feels. Good Luck!

Pete

 ianstevens 31 Jan 2023
In reply to Jim Houghton:

1) If you have a 1.35 half - you could probably go 3.30 (assuming this is recent time). 4 hours would be fine for you. 3.30 is 4.58 min/km, 4 hours is 5.41 pace. 

2) There are a whole pile of 12 week marathon training plans for experienced runners. Honestly best to just take a reputable one of these and go with it - check runners world, Garmin, strata etc. Be a little careful about mileage increases - maybe best to not add much more than 20% per week, and spread this out over multiple runs. Most plans will have you do 2 x interval sessions, 1 x long run, and maybe some other stuff. For the intervals: add no more than one interval per session, and for the long run aim for 2-4km per week with a break every fourth week. To exemplify: 20, 22, 24, 20, 26, 28, 30, 20 etc. No need to run the distance in training IMO - but good to get something in around the 30-35k mark in week 10.

Post edited at 14:31
 tlouth7 31 Jan 2023
In reply to Jim Houghton:

I have run a 3:30 following a 1:34 half, so I would suggest that is the time to aim for. It is also a nice, round 5min/km or 8min/mile which makes it easy to track as you run.

I did that 3:30 on not more than 35km a week, though many people would do more. Personally in your position I wouldn't focus on increasing mileage but rather getting good quality long runs in. 1 long run per week increasing from say 25km (or whatever you can currently manage) to 35km over 8 weeks, then decrease a bit in the last two weeks of proper training, any other running you do is just a bonus.

OP Jim Houghton 31 Jan 2023
In reply to Jim Houghton:

Really helpful. Thanks everyone. Maybe I'm aim for 3:30... I've just got a number of friends who have felt happy till 30k and then blown up and had a miserable last 10... Really don't want that to happen!

 The New NickB 31 Jan 2023
In reply to Jim Houghton:

Sounds like you are in reasonable shape to embark on an intermediate type marathon programme.

I’d start your long runs at half marathon, or even 15 miles and build from there. The beginner programmes aim to get you to 20 miles once before the big day. I think there are big advantages in having run 20 miles three or four times before the marathon. I was always a fan of a target marathon pace 10 miler during the week as well.

 redscotti 31 Jan 2023
In reply to Jim Houghton:

It's a road marathon - forget it. Having taken part in the last century's great marathon explosion, my 75 year old knees deeply regret their participation. Go trail running. Much more fun and you won't f**K your joints.

2
OP Jim Houghton 31 Jan 2023
In reply to redscotti:

That's partly why I'm glad I haven't got loads of prep time to rack up too much mileage on road!

 Levy_danny 31 Jan 2023
In reply to Jim Houghton:

I ran a 1 hour 35 end of October 2021 and then followed up with a sub 3.30 in Manchester marathon April 2023 (first road marathon) so as others have said I think you should aim for that. I didn’t do any specific training plan myself as I just did quite a few miles already although I did do a slow 26 mile fell race in the march so it was nice to know that I could cover the miles. I think I made sure I did a few longer runs in the run up and I did do some fasted. 

Word of warning you might enjoy it and get a bit hooked I think I ended up doing 7 last year in the end even though prior to the fell one I’d never done one and now I’m onto the ultras. 
 

as others have said nutrition is key so make sure as part of your training plan you’re finding out what works for you. 

 Levy_danny 31 Jan 2023
In reply to Jim Houghton:

These are good training plans as well https://caffeinebullet.com/training-plan/free-marathon-training-plans/

Their caffeine products are good as well for the second half of the marathon if you can stomach them. 
 

For what it’s worth I still think I’m proudest of my road marathon. I really didn’t expect it but got quite emotional crossing the line. I think it’s good to push yourself but don’t kill yourself and soak in the atmosphere and experience. I’ve been trying to get into London for quite a few years with no luck. 

 dread-i 31 Jan 2023
In reply to Jim Houghton:

>I've just got a number of friends who have felt happy till 30k and then blown up

Been there done that. Lots of folk, hear the gun and get all excited and go off like its a park run. Set your pace and stick with it. You can join one of the pace groups, if you think it will help. As you settle in, you can overtake all those who blew up too early. As for the wall, eat. There will be gels. Take 2 or 3 and spread them out every 15/ 20 mins, so you have a constant source of energy available. Let the crowd carry you along and high 5 some kids when you get a bit down.

 ExiledScot 31 Jan 2023
In reply to Jim Houghton:

Not London for decades, is your start group already decided? If you're starting in a significantly slower expect as many steps sideways around people as forwards. Or just go with the flow and drop the time ambition. 

 montyjohn 31 Jan 2023
In reply to Levy_danny:

Slight extension to the question do you know how often you would need to run to maintain your fitness?

When training I often find something gets in the way and there will be a period of no training (say a fortnight) and it feels like all gains have been lost.

Could be psychological. Probably is, but an answer to this question could help battle through it.

I suspect the answer is "it depends" however.

 Levy_danny 31 Jan 2023
In reply to montyjohn:

I’ve got a couple of niggles at the moment and didn’t run at all really since trigger fell race except for a couple of souls destroying attempts which flailed up my Achilles injury and managed to run a tough 50 mile ultra on Saturday fairly successfully so think it takes quite a while to lose fitness. Certainly longer than it feels in your mind. Sometimes having a forced break is better than overtraining etc in my opinion

 Levy_danny 31 Jan 2023
In reply to dread-i:

This is so important it’s incredibly easy to get carried away at the start and not realise. I had a plan to stick within 10 seconds of 5 mins per km through the whole race and found myself going off at 4 mins per km and it not feeling fast because of the adrenaline. Pulled it back in really quickly and didn’t hit any sort of wall at all. 

OP Jim Houghton 01 Feb 2023
In reply to Jim Houghton:

Thanks all - next question - what shoes do you recommend for a marathon? I've got some old vapourflys which I've used for short road races but I find they begin to rub over long distances...or I train in Air Zoom Pegasus...

Basically my question is: is it worth investing in something fast like Alphafly or Vapourfly or, over that distance, is it better just to use what I'm used to?

Thanks!

 Levy_danny 01 Feb 2023
In reply to Jim Houghton:

So I bought some vaporfly and they are absolutely amazing at keeping the pace going steady in the race and they do feel so fast, I did a few training runs in them in the run up to the marathon with no issues but did get a blister between my toes on the day which could have been quite nasty but managed to push through. I only really wear them on the odd occasion now if I want to go fast as they aren't as robust as other shoes. 

 The New NickB 01 Feb 2023
In reply to Jim Houghton:

I’ve not run a marathon for 10 years, so all of my marathons were in race / fast training shoes, but of that vintage. The Adidas Adois were a favourite. I like a race orientated shoe, but for a marathon comfort is important as well.

I’ve not run in Alphafly or Vapourfly, I have run fairly extensively in the Saucony Endorphin range - Pro, Pro 2, Speed and Shift, although the latter is a different beast. For me the Pro / Pro 2 / Speed are really comfortable, but I think really help you keep form. The Pro in the carbon version, speed is almost as good, but has a plastic rather than carbon plate. What Saucony really got right was the foam, which a lot of the companies trying to catch up with Nike didn’t. Some good deals on old models at the moment. Definitely an easier shoe to wear than Nike super shoes, maybe not quite so super fast, but not far off.

 abcdef 01 Feb 2023
In reply to Jim Houghton:

Hard to recommend, as depends on your weight/how much cushioning or support needed etc. My only advice would be to make sure they are sized suitably. My first marathon plan I used my normal running shoes which were 1 size larger than normal. All seemed fine until I was regularly running 15+ miles, then I realised I was gently bumping the ends of my toes. I bought 2 sizes bigger before the big day, but by then it was too late and I had 3 dead nails to grow-out afterwards.

 abcdef 01 Feb 2023
In reply to The New NickB:

"I was always a fan of a target marathon pace 10 miler during the week as well"

do you mean that was a constant run throughout your training?

 wbo2 01 Feb 2023
In reply to Jim Houghton:  The Pegs  would be fine. I used to run up to 1/2 in full blown racing shoes, but eventually for 10K up I'd use a pretty cushioned racing shoe as the benefits of not being a biomechanical road accident massively outweighed 25g of saved cushioning weight.

The carbon plate shoes look really good but they're after my time

 The New NickB 01 Feb 2023
In reply to abcdef:

> "I was always a fan of a target marathon pace 10 miler during the week as well"

> do you mean that was a constant run throughout your training?

It was a regular session, most weeks.

 abcdef 01 Feb 2023
In reply to The New NickB:

what changes did you see in that session over the weeks - same pace always, and just that it felt easier?

(just trying to refine my plan right now)

 The New NickB 01 Feb 2023
In reply to abcdef:

Generally the aim would be for it to feel easier, rather than get faster.

 abcdef 01 Feb 2023
In reply to The New NickB:

any idea why using race pace? i get the concept of long runs slowly, and tempo runs faster than pace. just not sure about where this one would fit in with those

 Neil Henson 01 Feb 2023
In reply to Jim Houghton:

Don't underestimate how busy the London Marathon is. I ran it in 2005 and barely broke into a jog for the first couple of miles due to the crowds. You will need to factor that in to your target time, if still as busy now as it was back then.

 The New NickB 01 Feb 2023
In reply to abcdef:

There does appear to be some differences on opinion on this. No doubts about the psychological benefits of being able to sustain your target pace for a a longish run and this getting easier as you progress through your training programme, plus being able to practice some of you marathon race strategy to a certain extent.

Where opinions differ is on what physiological benefit it has. It will improve aerobic capacity, but some would argue that it doesn’t have any benefit beyond this and aerobic capacity can be improved through long slow runs and faster tempo runs (aerobic threshold, racing etc). Others argue that it the best way to improve the bodies ability to move oxygenated blood to slow twitch muscles, so improving efficiency. I also think it is the best way to fine tune your running form and improve efficiency.

 mountainbagger 01 Feb 2023
In reply to The New NickB:

I've got the Saucony Speed 2 and Nike Vaporfly (paid £150). I've only worn the Vaporfly twice but they're amazingly light and quite comfortable. I think I'm faster in them but I have no proof. But ...

The Speed 2 are quite simply the most comfortable, light and fun shoes I've ever had. I'd wear them all the time if I could. Fit like a glove and I feel really good in them. I'm not sure I actually look any better or run any faster but who cares if they feel great!

I've worn the Speed 2 for a half marathon and the Vaporfly just for a couple of speed sessions. Last time I did a road marathon I think I wore Brooks Ghost which I used to love but now feel like bricks.

 TMM 02 Feb 2023
In reply to mountainbagger:

Another vote for the Saucony Speed. 

I switched to Saucony for all my shoes (road, race, trail & mud) 4 years ago and really do not regret the decision.

Their sizing remains consistent across the range across generations of shoes. This makes online purchases safe. As a result I stockpile the shoes when I find them on special offer

 Levy_danny 02 Feb 2023
In reply to TMM:

I’ve just picked up a pair of their peregrine in the sales and love them for longer trail runs. Do you recommend any for longer distances im thinking of moving away from Hoks for 26+ miles 

 petemeads 02 Feb 2023
In reply to mountainbagger:

My Speed 2s lasted for 331.33km then the midsole foam under my right heel split. I had used them for fast parkruns and the intervals required to get fast, was not sure if I could manage a whole half because they tended to rub my heels in the same place my climbing shoes do - but I went for it anyway and won my age category in two local halves. They have been replaced, thanks SportsShoes, by the Speed 3 model, which seem to be more comfortable so I have high hopes for the new season. However, my favourite shoes are Brooks Hyperion Tempo, bought originally because the Saucony were like hen's teeth in 2020. My first pair are on 1,400km at the moment, feeling a bit flat by now, and my second pair have done a couple of parkruns and feel identical to the first pair when new. I have run up to 30k in my Tempos with no foot problems whatsoever. They are very light as well..

Edit to 2020

Post edited at 09:40
 TMM 02 Feb 2023
In reply to Levy_danny:

> I’ve just picked up a pair of their peregrine in the sales and love them for longer trail runs. Do you recommend any for longer distances im thinking of moving away from Hoks for 26+ miles 

I use the Peregrines for trail runs but for distances of 1/2+ I use the Xodus Ultra. I find them very comfortable with great cushioning without losing too much feel. Hopefully they will last as well as the previous generations Xodus.

I don't go over 26 miles on the road so I can't help you there!

 steveriley 02 Feb 2023
In reply to Jim Houghton:

Nothing useful to add on shoes or training, but just a note of support on the 3-month / bodge approach. You'll be fine as long as you don't weigh yourself down with expectations. If you can do 30k in the hills, that's a good sign. My first (trail) marathon was after a long run of 16 miles. If it's your first marathon: guaranteed PB.

In reply to mountainbagger:

> Last time I did a road marathon I think I wore Brooks Ghost which I used to love but now feel like bricks.

Wash out your mouth - I have 8 pairs from new to various states of decay in the cupboard. 

 mountainbagger 02 Feb 2023
In reply to TheDrunkenBakers:

> Wash out your mouth - I have 8 pairs from new to various states of decay in the cupboard. 

🤣

I did love them but the last pair were just to firm for my ageing ankles and problematic heels.

If you ever get the chance, try some Saucony Endorphin Speeds! I do also enjoy my ASICS Novablast.

Long runs on road, Brooks Glycerin GTS for me, so still got some Brooks in there!

 Nic Barber 03 Feb 2023
In reply to Jim Houghton:

Good luck and enjoy the training and the day. A lot of solid advice in here - I'd echo getting a good 3 or more longer (20+ miles if possible) runs in if possible, increasing the distance gradually, rather than going too big on weekly mileage. And the mid-week tempo sounds good, if only for dialing in to Marathon pace and knowing what it feels like (and it hopefully getting easier over the training block!)

If you have any biomechanical weaknesses, work on them with some light exercises. I got a bit crampy in my hamstring/calf in the last 4 miles of my marathon (Manchester 2018 2:43ish) and I think it was down to hammys not being as strong as they could be. Went from knocking out 6min/miles feeling bulletproof at 21 miles to hobbling 6:30s for the last 4 - but good to know I can hobble that fast! If something like that hits, quick stretch on the road side and try to keep stride as smooth as possible.

Oh and for fueling, make sure you don't try anything new on race day. The next person over the line after me was the dreaded 'Gingerbread man' (poo all down his legs) - no PB is worth that!

Post edited at 09:00
In reply to mountainbagger:

> 🤣

> I did love them but the last pair were just to firm for my ageing ankles and problematic heels.

> If you ever get the chance, try some Saucony Endorphin Speeds! I do also enjoy my ASICS Novablast.

> Long runs on road, Brooks Glycerin GTS for me, so still got some Brooks in there!

Ah, Glycerin, I did have some of those some time ago. Ive never had Saucony so will try those when I next need a replacement.

Question - the correct pronunciation of Saucony. Is it Sauce-ony or Sauck-ony?

 mountainbagger 03 Feb 2023
In reply to TheDrunkenBakers:

> Ah, Glycerin, I did have some of those some time ago. Ive never had Saucony so will try those when I next need a replacement.

> Question - the correct pronunciation of Saucony. Is it Sauce-ony or Sauck-ony?

I believe it's "sock or knee" 🙂

 Strife 12 Feb 2023
In reply to Jim Houghton:

I ran the Paphos marathon with only 11 days of prep. At the time I was running 20-30km per week.

I just took it slow and snacked on haribo. Ended up finishing with a time of 3:25. Legs felt a bit heavy during the last 5km, but I never encountered "the wall". The difficulty of marathons tends to be vastly overhyped. Just keep moving and you'll get there.

 Alun 12 Feb 2023
In reply to Jim Houghton:

I agree with much of the other advice on the thread. You will be fine with 3 months of build up from your level. I would strongly recommend building up gradually and make sure you have some longer runs of 25-35km under your belt, otherwise you will blow up at around 30km during the event, as your friends did - this was also my experience!

The longer runs will also help you judge your pace. I was running 1.40 halves when I did my marathon, and was aiming for 3.45, but blew up at 30km and crawled in (in horrendous pain) at 4.05. I did not do enough longer training runs!

I would wear your most comfy shoes and not worry about it, but then I am of the ‘Born to Run’ book attitude to shoes, so read into that what you will!


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