UKC

I’m bored and internet shopping. I’d like a new mm bag for when we can go out to play. I currently have a down bag rated to 3degrees and weighing 670g. I’d like to go closer to the 400g mark but like to stay warm. Any suggestions?

If you are feeling wealthy you could consider one of these

https://www.phdesigns.co.uk/minimus-degree-200-down-sleeping-bag

https://www.phdesigns.co.uk/minimus-degree-200-down-sleeping-bag

You can make them longer or wider as needed, but will need even more pocket money. We have some PhD stuff and its is made well and has lasted.

Would you consider a quilt?

https://www.ultralightoutdoorgear.co.uk/equipment-c3/sleeping-bags-c21/slee...

I have the warmer version of this and really like it.

Check these guys out;

https://www.h18orr.com/products/down-sleeping-bag

I’m not sure quilts would pass kit check... also as a user of a balloon bed I think it would be very cold on the feet and lower legs. Although I wonder if you could stick the 2 together to make an all in oner. 

A lot of very good options here:

http://sleepingbags-cumulus.eu/

I have the 350 quilt and love it.

The site is down so can't re-check but I've used a quilt for a couple off MMs and checked beforehand. From memory it just says something like 'appropriate sleeping system' rather than specifying a bag. After all, they sell those jacket, foot pod combo things.

Re the cold feet thing, most quilts have a constructed foot section.

Agree that it wouldn't be good with a balloon bed. However I've got a super light thermarest. I've removed the foam in the back of the rucksack and use the mat instead. This translates to less than 100g heavier overall than balloon bed and vastly greater comfort.

Less amusement though.

Which thermarest is that?

and my current bag is a cumulus

Depends which MM but quilts will pass kit check on some but only if its part of a system, so Thermarest Quilt, Thermarest pad etc.

I have the PHD Minimus, great bags and very low weight and pack size, i think i would look to synthetic next time, the OMM ones look good but they don't publish ratings

I've got the Neoair but the Uberlite is even lighter. Depending on exactly what you do I think the Uberlite makes a balloon bed start to look less attractive. But then I'm not a real weight weenie, I'd much rather have a bit of comfort.

I think it needs to be a sleeping bad as as I tend to do them all depending on partners etc.

I like the look of the OMM bags but think they review as being quite cold. Good price though.

PHD look nice but very pricey.

The Hanger 18 bags look good for the price, I wonder if getting the 480g bag and removing half the zip to take it closer to 400g would be a good idea (the wife is good with old needle and thread).

Really there are to many options!

The one thing to be wary of is that when down gets wet it loses its insulation properties. If you’re camping properly then that’s not a problem. If you’re travelling light and sleeping in a bivvy, you need to be more careful about getting gear wet. 

Not really an issue for the OPs use. Mountain Marathons are mostly single nights in a tent (albeit a tiny one usually).

PHD Minimus here. No zip.

I’m tempted by the bubble wrap option but just not sure.

These bags look good https://www.ultralightoutdoorgear.co.uk/equipment-c3/sleeping-bags-c21/slee... paticularly as you can get them for under£200 now

Also I’ve never been cold enough to get into my survival bag. How warm are they? 
 

I have a vague recollection that Jim Mann just used a blizzard box wall style survival bag on a few Rab MMs. 

Not much really. They'll add a bit. If you have to (and I've never done it) have it inside your sleeping bag, it's apparently the way to go. Condensation will wet your sleeping bag out if you do it the way logic tells you. 

The Blizzard bag I had was heavier than my down bag and survival bag combination for MM (Cumulus Magic and SOL bag). I use the survival bag as my insulation/barrier. 

I’ve always used my survival bag as an extra layer under my bed. It makes sense to have it inside but I think I would have put it outside if I used it in anger.

I am no closer to deciding on a new bag my current one is rated to 2degrees and it seems difficult to match that temp without spending lots!

There's a definite diminishing on returns when it comes to kit, especially lightweight kit. If you're not set on a definite change of bag, are there other areas of weight you could lose that might be cheaper? (Apologies if I'm coming across as 'one of those people', you probably have this all covered). 

I have an exped 3/4 mat for the OMM and cold nights. Otherwise... back of my bag folds out into a sort of torso length bit of comfort

I'm a side sleeper so I can get away with it - bit of padding on my hips keeps the pain down...and I'm usually tired enough not to care after a long score event. 

I was going to post a link to the Cumulus site but you're already familiar with their kit. The x-lite range seems to hit your target so for the money it would be a contender comparing it to the phd stuff. Rock + Run seem to have some distribution on these at the moment.

The lightest bags I've used are just a bit heavier than you are looking at, 500 grams for the Lightwave https://www.ukclimbing.com/gear/camping/sleeping_bags/lightwave_firelight_2... and 460 grams for the Thermarest bag. They are both really impressive bits of kit but are unsurprisingly expensive! Lightwave do a 150 version that is just under 400 grams but the Thermarest Hyperion is the lightest bag I think they do.

This is making me feel sad about not being able to go out for a quick overnight bikepack or hike up Kinder and camp on the top!

I think the price tag for those bags is excessive to shave 200g off my packweight. I'm keen for a lighter bag but not £450 keen! 

Also just seen the Saunders is (unsuprisingly) cancelled.... I wonder whether the ROC will be as well

If it is, do you want to buy a sleeping bag? 

I’m not hopeful it’ll be on, so my sleeping bag purchase might be put on hold until I find a good deal

Yeah, it'll be interesting. 

Sorry - forgot to add the link to the Thermarest review yesterday https://www.ukclimbing.com/gear/camping/sleeping_bags/therm-a-rest_hyperion... That bag is cheaper - 335 rrp - but still far from cheap! 

The price is something I think about a lot doing the reviews, because they feel so expensive. As I said in the Lightwave review IIRC, the bags aren't so much less complicated to make than some -30 polar bag, they just have less down in them - so it is sort of understandable, but yeah - I agree, you need to know you'll get a lot of use out of it to justify the cost.

Our Scottish MM places were transferred to the ROC........

The thermarest bag looks like a great piece of kit and I’ve found it on sale which makes it a decent price. Thanks for the recommendation.

As it’s supposed to be the last year of the ROC they might struggle to transfer entries, particularly as the SMM is now run by other people! 

This was going to be the last year of the SMM too.

Hasn’t it been taken over by Kong though? So it’s not an easy transfer from the ROC to SMM 2021

What, really! That's the Highlander, LAMM, Scottish MM and now the SMM. What a shame. Is it lack of interest? 

Kong are doing a Scottish Mountain Marathon next year, or were planning to, I've no idea whether this will affect their plans. I'm not sure if they are "taking over" the Scottish Mountain Marathon from Ourea/Shane or whether it is just a totally "new" race that happens to be on the same "LAMM" weekend.

I don't think Kong are taking over the Saunders as well?

I hadn't heard about Kong. All I knew was that Ourea were not doing another Scottish Mountain Marathon. This year's would only have been the 2nd of theirs.

I can't imagine it's lack of interest as they always seem to be pretty busy. I suspect it's more down to the amount of work that goes into it compared to the financial returns. Per person entries for a 2 day MM are less than many one day events so I guess there's less incentive for commercial events companies to run them?

Sorry I think there is confusion. I’ve used SMM for Scottish mountain marathon, Saunders is SLMM! 
 

I think probably the amount of work compared to income is probably really high, particularly when compared to something like the dragons back or cape wrath. You have to scope out new areas, plan courses, place checkpoints etc, compared to following a known route each year. It’s a massive shame to lose more MM. Hopefully someone will take on the ROC, it always seemed pointless to run other courses as well as the score so maybe a return to that would alleviate the pressure. 
i also think the nature of the events appeal to a smaller % of the market each year. It’s a pretty specialised event. And with the massive number of events out there it’s difficult to attract punters.

Ourea are focusing on their big flagship events. There was a publicity briefing about it. I too think that finances for the two day events were probably not worth it. My belief is the ROC was too close to the OMM. It was always marketed as niche and low key (which as a competitor I enjoyed - fell out of love with the OMM) but you've got to make them pay. 

It’s hard to quantify it as well for bragging rights. People understand what an Ironman is or running a marathon. But try explaining that a 15mile LDMT course took you 5hours and people don’t get it. 

It is a good bag - genuinely enjoyed reviewing it. Just make sure you are aware of the whole more insulation on the top than the bottom thing if you roll around much in your sleep.

The price of the ROC seemed to increase each year, its only the SLMM which is still relatively cheap. But then 2days ROC is still cheap compared to skyraces, lots of trail races etc

On the basis of the 2 OMMs I've done I'd say the first M is for Moorland rather than mountain! By contrast I did the 2nd last LAMM in the An Teallach area and it was spectacular.

That's a good thing from my point of view! Have you ever been around an IM event? It's a hideous commercial circus.

Yeah totally. I wasn’t arguing for “bragging rights”. It’s horrendous! 
I’ve not raced the OMMrecently for similar reasons. It’s to busy, and has a slight element of toughmudder in some of its marketing!

It's eye-watering sometimes isn't it. 

Yeah it totally is but better value than racing triathlons!

I hope that maybe a longer single day score event might crop up, like a 7hour single day event, similar to the Kong Minis or rogaine

I couple of years ago my wife did IM UK in Bolton. £500 entry fee.

The week before I did the Glamaig Hill Race. £5 entry fee.

I know those things are totally incomparable but...

I used a Yeti Fever Zero for the MdS and I was warm enough down to minus 2 and it weighs about 300g I think?

Same here. We abandoned the OMM for the Scottish races, doing the Highlander or the LAMM (or both).  It's sad to see them go.

We did the Scottish MM last year which we enjoyed, but it felt like it lacked a little something. That might be because it was such an amazing last LAMM out on Harris though.

It's comfort temp is quoted as +12! Are you a warm sleeper?

I miss the Highlander, it was a great event. As was the LAMM, the remoteness and the midges! It took you to places you'd rarely go and as wild as Britain gets. 

The OMM seems to favour wide grouse moors, as did last years ROC....

Also, £500 for a tour of Bolton!?!?!

re: Ourea

The Silva3D is an interesting example of shifting over time. When I first did we camped in a wet field with a tent to congregate in - quite luxurious compared to some events. Now there are food vans and two days are spent at one site meaning that you can largely avoid the setting up an already wet tent. It is much more attractive to those who don't fancy limited facilities and rehydrated food, although the routes are not dissimilar. 

I did the GL3D a few years ago and really enjoyed it, but it was a very different experience to running mountain marathons. Not in a bad way, I just expected it to be a bit more rough and ready. It's mountain marathon glamping essentially....

I've got an entry to the Grampian Mountain Challenge which should be an interesting mix of orienteering, mountain marathon, and general suffering. I'm hoping it's far enough away to not be cancelled but we'll see!

Yep!

I've been debating the GMC for a while. It's the weekend I'll be 40 and I can see no better way to spend it than shivering in a tent on my own crying myself to sleep as hotaches take over

Do it! Scottish mountains in winter...how horrible can it be! I’m hoping it’s easy orienteering sections though I don’t have a good track record with properO

I'm the opposite, make the orienteering sections hard as my outright running speed ain't what it used to be. All the beer of late may not help that either