UKC

As per my previous post, having given up on both ASICS and Brooks waterproof trail running shoes - I find myself with three options (advice welcome!)

1. give up on waterproof trail running shoes forever, get waterproof socks - be happy (maybe??)

2. give up on waterproof trail running shoes forever, use normal non-waterproof ones when it’s wet (and dry), get wet feet - be sad (and cold!?)

3. Try an alternative brand of no doubt expensive trainers and maybe have wet feet after a while, maybe not - maybe be happy, maybe be sad….

so the question is - are waterproof socks any good? How long do they last? Can you run in them for 10k up to a marathon, through all manner of wet paths and boggy bits etc.? Do they do their job and keep your feet dry? Are they too sweaty? Do they rub weirdly and give you blisters?? 

I’ve just taken a look and they ain’t cheap for socks … approx £22- £25 for seal skinz (which is more than the premium you pay for the waterproof version of trainer compared to the non waterproof ones). 
 

thanks for any insight anyone can offer! 

Waterproof socks and shoes are pointless for trail running, they just hold water when it does get in which isn't what you want, just wear merino or a thicker sock and buy well draining shoes.

I played the goretex lined fell running shoes game for a while. Final straw was the LDWA Valleys 100 miler with 24hrs + of rain. XCR innovates were wonderful footbaths.  36hrs later I had lost the skin off the balls of both feet and 5 toe nails. I limped for a week after the finish.

Since then, gone for standard running shoes. Absolutely wouldn't go back. Sealskins etc "waterproof" socks last about 3 runs, then leak. 

Embrace the cold and wet. Wade through the rivers and enjoy your feet being cooled, then aired as the water drains away!! 

In the very cold spells last winter it dawned on me that I had frozen feet because I was splashing through puddles of near-freezing water. Wet is ok, cold in't for this old lady. Santa has brought me some sealskinz ... but they are still under the tree because my daughter is isolating with covid so Christmas has been postponed! 

So tomorrow's very, very muddy race, including two fords so wet feet guaranteed, will have to be done without them. Splish splash splosh

Water proof socks are great if you're operating below your foot-sweat threshold, and, the temperature difference isn't enough to cause too much condensation build-up. In nearly every situation, you'll still have bath-feet after a day out. 

I wear them with fellshoes in preference to hiking boots. The WP socks keep the feet warm by limiting the amount of water flushing through - more like a wetsuit some days.

I don't wear them running, the fit is way too baggy, boxy, etc. and with normal socks underneath there's just too much room for movement. 

if it's actual running (I.e. sub 2 maybe 3 hrs) then just get wet and live with it.(option 2).

For long days out, option 1 is good - but not everyone's favourite: The only sure way to keep your feet actually dry: wear wellies, and don't sweat. 

Forgot to say:

Option 3 is snake oil 

I find that non waterproof shoes and medium weight Merino socks work well on wet ground in winter. They seem to either dry out quickly or else have a bit of a wetsuit-style effect, and don't rub nearly as badly as cotton or nylon.

I've waterproof sealskinz and rate them for winter, esp anything more than an HR or so of running when I expected my feet to get wet and stay wet.  Definitely keep my feet dry and far warmer in slushy / muddy / wet terrain.  If it's just the odd puddle or boggy trail section I'd normally not bother.

Biking rather than running but they were a relevation for my winter commute, even if it now means everyone misses out on my hotache dance once my feet start thawing out in the shower block!

They'd be too warm and sweaty for summer / warmer conditions where I just accept wet feet since little real problem and thinner normal socks dry out far more quickly.

Cheers,

Stu

Waterproof shoes are a PITA but waterproof socks have some applications. I use sealskinz for long, cold runs with a wooly sock underneath. Definitely works.

I find Sealskinz are good but they always spring a leak in the first half dozen or so times I wear them.  I guess it only takes a pointy grain of sand to work its way in through the outer fabric to puncture the wafer-thin membrane.  They still help after they start leaking though, as they stop cold water from 'flushing' through and the water trapped inside does eventually warm up so they do still work to keep you warm despite letting some water in, a bit like wearing a wetsuit.

For the last few years I've been wearing these, over woolly socks.  Basically they're hi-tech bread bags - waterproof and extremely hard wearing but completely non-breathable.  They're fine for a few hours at a time (so a 10k is no problem), but I think they'd get pretty rancid if you wore them while you worked up a sweat all day.
https://www.chillcheater.com/gloves-and-footwear/aquatherm-socks

(They're usually super fast, but they're v busy at the mo apparently and orders of 'Aquatherm' products are taking weeks to dispatch.)

I bought some sealskinz a while back along with goretex MTB shoes after getting terrible hot aches in winter, and then going with a mate who had no problems as he had this kit.  They were a complete revelation.

Then I started using them with goretex trainers too for wet runs and orienteering. They were similarly effective.

They have lasted for years (5+). 
 

Get some 3mm neoprene socks from ebay or the like, 99% waterproof and if any water does get it it keep warm, get my ones for around £10 and last 2-3 winters. Goretex and sealskinz dont seal around the ankle so just let water down from above plus its difficult to get them tight to the foot as they don't stretch.

High top sealskinz are worthwhile for wet ground runs and for winter as they act a bit like a wetsuit for your feet! Note, if you are doing any river crossings this is their demise as you would have to take them off or otherwise they would fill up with water! Overall I have a pair that get used all the time in winter and they are great!

I see the same is true for a lot of people on here, but I've had quite a few pairs of Sealskinz (and some cheapy Aldi equivalents) and don't think any of them weren't letting water at least a bit within 5 runs, let alone 5 years.  (The Aldi ones were about the best funnily enough.)

I'm not sure why that is.  My running shoes were always quite porous, so probably let grains of sand etc. in to make contact with the socks more readily than more waterproof shoes would.  And perhaps it has to do with spending a fair bit of time around the gritstone edges where the sand is particularly gritty.  Or maybe I just washed them too often or something, dunno.

You're lucky! I tried Sealskinz and they never lasted more than a couple of muddy/gritty runs. OK for biking (where they stay clean and have an easier life), but even then they've never last more than a year.

When I was doing lots of fell running and MMs, I just accepted that feet get wet, then warm, then dryish, then wet, then...

The trick is just to get shoes/socks that fit well (no rubbing), drain well and don't go sloppy when wet (minimal unnecessary padding). The only time I can remember having cold feet was at the start of day2 in a KIMM - standing around a bit too long in powder snow (shoes wet from day 1) waiting for our start time (pessimistic allowance for tent packing time). One mile into the run, had to wade through a stream and it felt WARM! Feet thawed out immediately and weren't cold for the rest of the day.

I've used seal skins and dexshell socks. I prefer the dexshell, but not much in it. As others have said they keep cold water from sloshing around and taking away all the heat. When they leak, they act like wet suits, so are still useful. Another benefit is that they keep mud and sand from getting in your socks and causing abrasions and blisters.

Recently replied following in current thread on: Boots wearing out too fast and failing.

 "Wide_Mouth-Frog, and others on previous threads, mention that Sealskinz goretex socks do a great job of keeping feet dry. Since the 1970s I've sometimes used medium thickness plastic bags in non-waterproof boots over my socks. The socks get damp from sweat, but it stop cold leaking water from cooling my feet. I do wonder if there is any difference between the plastic bags and the goretex (apart from price!) as I can't see how goretex can breath with a layer of cold water over it."

I don't know if the creases in polybags round a foot would cause blisters if running, perhaps not with socks between them and skin.

I’ve been using the Rooster 2.5mm neoprene sailing socks as recommended by Dave Taylor (Fellrunningguide). I’ve had them 3 years and I’m just starting to go through the toe on one of them. I’ve not used Sealskinz so can’t compare but they definitely keep your feet warm (not dry, obvs). They feel a bit ‘spongy’ but not particularly heavy even when fully soaked.

I think the issue would be that the foot will move around more inside the shoe and hence be less secure on rough terrain. I've used bags during overnight stops (with dry socks inside), but never whilst running. I prefer the shoe to be well 'glued' to my foot.

Like others I've tried various pairs over the years...most recently Bridgedale. My take on it is that none of them are waterproof in the long term (or even medium term) and that my feet will still get wet in winter, but they will be a fair bit warmer than if I was using normal socks. 

Only a theory.  But the little evidence I have, says Sealskin socks fail if you don't wear strong running socks underneath.  Comments anyone ?

I was waiting, standing in freezing water over my shoes,  on the start line of a race up and down the hill from the Bakewell Showground,  when I made the decision to spend any money for waterproof socks.

I certainly have evidence that undermines that theory.

I've never tried it, all the Sealskinz I've had were too thick to wear with another pair of socks as well - I'd probably need to go half a size up with the shoes to do that.

But I guess it would depend on the individual and the terrain - whether the membrane in the sock is more under attack from your toenails or sand/grit getting into the shoe from outside.

You agree that they fail.

Maybe.

Yes, to the extent that they are not worth using. If I really, REALLY hated wet feet, I might still persist with them, but even then I would trust then to last a long muddy run. And once they leak, I'd rather not have them at all.

On occasion,  I would just about consider racing in wellington boots, rather than have very frozen wet feet.

You didn't comment on whether you had tried strong running socks underneath ?

Gimmicks for park run devotees skipping over a few puddles. 

There would be no point Marek doing that because he's simply not that bothered by having wet feet.  Even if wearing another pair of socks under Sealskinz made them indestructible it would not be worth the price, for him, in losing the 'feel' of connection with the shoe.

I'm not that bothered by wet feet either, but do get Raynaud's type symptoms when it's cold and suffer with my toes a bit.  I found Sealskinz useful even after they'd sprung a little leak, but no longer use them now that I have found a better (for me) winter solution of thinner and more robust non-breathable waterproof socks worn over the top of woolly ones.

Just he claims to have evidence that socks underneath don't prevent damage.

" I certainly have evidence that undermines that theory."

Me too.

Which are they ?

Winter when its cold cold cold I love my otter socks, mrs loves em more, who with African heritage has less of a tolerance to cold and wet than me

Anything over 5c, and not bog hopping, then decent merino socks and put up with the odd cold flush 

Reed Chillcheater 'Aquatherm'.  I posted a link further up:
https://www.chillcheater.com/gloves-and-footwear/aquatherm-socks

They'd potentially be a good alternative to neoprene especially - 'Aquatherm' fabric is less stretchy than neoprene but also tougher, thinner and doesn't have that 'spongy' feeling.  Not at all breathable, so probably not a good alternative to Sealskinz for more than a few hours at a time - they get a bit minging inside if you wear them all day long, especially while working hard.

Sorry - I thought the implications was there. Yes, I have worn them with pretty tough wool+nylon socks (Running Bear, own brand, I have some that are > 10 years old, many MMs and ultras behind them and are still great). I fact I don't think I've ever worn Sealskinz without these (or similar) socks inside. 

Sorry.  Didn't see that post.  I'll probably get some to try.

No chance.  45 mins and I'm done.

Never run MM or ultra.  Perhaps the difference.

So considering all the above comments then, what would people wear on their feet if they were going to run/walk for say, between 4 and 12 hours, say marathon to ultra, unsupported so just a small running pack, in winter over wet terrain?

I’m only talking about the Peak District so not like a super extreme environment, but I just can’t imagine having wet cold feet for 11 hours 45 minutes (where I’m running you’d have wet feet almost immediately with non-waterproof running trainers)…

No worries, there's no reason why you should have.

There's a warning on the landing page of their website that it's taking them a long time to send out orders of Aquatherm products at the mo, so if you're thinking of ordering some it might be worth giving them a shout to check how long it'll take first.

The first time I bought some I made the mistake of sizing them down a bit and had to send them back because they were too small.  (I have size 10 feet but thought I'd get away with L instead of XL - wrong!)

XL it is.

Or perhaps age and what you're used to? For most of my off-road running years, there was no alternative to wet feet, so I guess I just got used to that. Pseudo-waterproof running footwear has only really been a 'thing' in the last decade - too late for me to change my habits? And even then, many of what I think of as 'nice' runs involve water well over the top of any shoes/socks, so it all become somewhat academic!

Depending on the expected terrain (hard path vs. soft ground) it'll be either whatever 'trail' shoes I favour at the moment (e.g., La Spotiva Bushidos) or 'fell' shoes (e.g., Walshes). Wet feet either way. And for what it's worth. IMHO the Peak is in many ways as 'extreme' on the feet as anywhere - The combination of hard paved paths, deep bogs, man-eating tussocks and shin-shredding vegetation (all often within one mile) is hard to beat!

Perhaps I'm lucky - I'm not to prone to blisters (with the right choice of socks & shoes) and I rarely suffer from cold feet when running (standing around or cycling is another story altogether). Yes, there's a cold sensation when you go up to your ankles in meltwater, but 100 yards on, it's all drained away and the feet are OK again. Another mile and they feel dry (for all intents and purposes - or until the next dunking).

1.

I wear sealskinz in running shoes that drain well for winter running.  They don't keep my feet dry but they do keep them warmer than other socks.  I don't wear any other socks with them and I have also found that the sealskinz will get holes in reasonably easily.  But they still keep my feet warm even when they have small holes (normally near my big toe nail).

If it's reasonably warm, I just tolerate wet feet.

a half serious suggestion to your comment about running in wellies….

https://www.nokianfootwear.com/product/finntrim/?color=olive

Disappointingly their "Rock" wellies are for excavating.

Another vote here for neoprene socks when it’s especially cold and wet. A lot more reliable and hardwearing than any waterproof shoe or sock. 

I’ve never bothered with waterproof socks or running shoes. I tried Horizon atomic 29 socks which have never rubbed so I’ve stuck with them. Done a couple of half marathons in them with no problems. My speedcross drain and dry really quick if I go through water and I’ve never suffered with cold feet.

I've been given a pair of sealskinz for Christmas. Haven't tried them yet - they are too thick for my current pair of trail shoes. I was waiting for the socks to arrive before replacing the shoes (Speedcross; I got fed up of their behaviour on wet stone), and I reckon they will make half a size difference.

I haven't used Speedcross for a few years, but they used to come with quite a thick insole. You might find using a thinner insole from another pair of shoes lets you use the Sealskinz in the Speedcross

Good point, thank you.

May have been mentioned already but here goes.

Sealskinz and other brands retain their waterproofness for a handful of runs before the membrane breaks down and you end up with really heavy wet socks that still somehow hold ALL the water once its got inside. Only upside is they do keep my toes warm.

I've been recommended the Inov8 Neoprene / Extreme thermo sock as an alternative. 

They are atrocious in that regard. Oddly, other Salomons I've used have been far better.

I can say that I have had the complete opposite experience to you with regards to sealskinz. Warm and waterproof although after a year of use one has developed a pin prick hole in the toe letting in a little water but it’s hardly a torrent. 
 

maybe I've been unlucky with all mine so far! once you're wet through and warmed it up its quite warm at least so its better than being frozen solid.

Same as the neoprene socks basically, and like a wetsuit.  Water gets in but not too much, and because it's prevented from 'flushing' through it warms up eventually so that you're warm in spite of being wet.

(That's a fallacy in the explanation you often see about how wetsuits work, that they trap a thin layer of water next to the skin which warms up.  They work in spite of that, not because of it.  You're warmer in a wetsuit while your skin remains dry, it's just that when water does get in the tight fit of the wetsuit limits the amount and prevents it from moving around too much.)

I get chilblains and raynauds and it really makes me miserable in the winter. I have tried waterproof shoes, neoprene, merino and seal skin socks and I would say neoprene with or without another sock inside would be my go to for dry feet. However that said I would usually just put up with wet feet because the neoprene would only be ok for a short time before getting too sweaty and the other options will get wet eventually. Seal skins ok for MTB where they are not fully submerged etc.

I've used seal skinz in very cold weather when I knew I would be on boggy ground. Done 15-20 mile runs in them and they were fine. If your shoes are tight/narrow you'll struggle to get them on.

Longevity is not great there was signs of wear after three or four uses but I use them so infrequently it doesn't really matter.

For less cold conditions some decent socks (merino blend etc.) and wet feet is far more comfortable.

Think I got mine cheap off SportPursuit