UKC

Hoping for a bit of advice.

I've done a fair bit of resort skiing and recently got to do a few days of touring which I absolutely loved.

I used frame bindings which were great but looking to get something a bit lighter weight for my own set up. I've been thinking of getting a pair of Diamir Vipec Bindings which seem to get pretty good reviews but just wondering if anyone can share their experience of using them in resort. A few reviews mentioned unexpected releases and don't want this to hold back my confidence for speedy skiing on moguls and icy pistes - will I notice much difference compared to the frame bindings (or even the Alpine bindings that I am more used to)? 
I've also been wondering about the Dynafit Beast which seem great with the extra 'heel clamp', but I like the idea of the releasable toe on the Vipecs.

To clarify I do want to get a set of light-ish AT bindings, hoping to do more touring and less resort skiing now that I know a few people. Though I will still be spending some days in resort!

Any pointers? Thanks!

Jon

In reply to JonLongshanks:

Hi

I’ve used Beasts in resorts (my heavy freeride rig) and don’t see any real performance problems. For skiing, that is. But I would not hit the park with them or do drops into hardback. 
 

Also, they are more fiddly to get into, than alpine bindings.

My wife used to only have one set, so she had Dynafit Radicals (IIRC) on her set. Again, no problems, but she isn’t into jumping or super agressive skiing.

In reply to JonLongshanks:

Have you looked at Salomon shift or Fritischi tecton - both freeride focused so great for all round skiing. I use tecton and found them very reliable for everything including   3 or 4 hour skins. A lot of people I’ve skied with use shift with similar feedback. 

In reply to JonLongshanks:

Agreed they are far more fiddly to get into than, say my dynafits. 

In reply to JonLongshanks:

This question comes up fairly often on here, and I think the biggest factor is how hard you ski 'in resort'. Backflips and dropping cliffs then a heavy pin/hybrid binding sounds like they're worth thinking about. 

On the other hand if you are a 'normal' skier a standard pin binding may well be suitable for everything. I ski entirely on pin bindings either off the lifts or when touring, as I see it all as just skiing. I see lots and lots of other people here in the Alps doing the same. Even when going to a resort I'll take skins to add options, and in case I need to get back up to someone quickly if they hurt themselves/ as part of avalanche safety equipment. 

Maybe a hard charging skier will come along and say that pin bindings aren't enough, but I think for most people they're fine. 

In reply to OP:

Hi - I had a similar conundrum late last year, and posted on this very topic:

https://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/skiing/atk_vs_salomon_shift_at_bindings-7...

I opted for the Shifts on the following basis:

Someone made the point there is a difference between multi-day touring and *long* touring - in reality you may daily schlepp up 1000m and cruse back down to the next hut - and in this scenario I wasn't convinced that shaving 600g off my bindings (cf. ATK pins) be really that big a deal.

The ability to hard-charge in an alpine style binding with DIN release far outweighed any perceived weight saving in pins.

I was looking at fitting bindings to hybrid, heavier skis (BC orb freebirds) - if I wanted to mainly tour I would go for a dedicated lightweight plank & pins setup

I've toured in frame bindings, so frankly anything would be better.

Many people I asked just said "go for the shifts, you'll not regret it"

So I bought the Shifts. The caveat is, I've yet to try out the rig, given the thaw up here in Scotland, so there is still the opportunity to regret it.

In reply to JonLongshanks:

I can't speak too much about performance on piste as not skied them that much on piste but never had an unexpected release on or off piste with Vipecs.

This may have been resolved now but a few years ago there was an issue with some brands of boots where, when in locked-out walk mode, if you took a knee fall straight over the front end of your skis the toe of the boot would be deformed by the "bumper" release lever (google to see photos of resultant damage).  At the time I understand that Fritschi did list some boots that they recommended not be used with the Vipecs.  To reiterate though, I may be doing them a disservice here and this has been resolved.

With regard to the release lever, I have broken this off on two toe pieces.  The first time I was not sure why it happened but could only think that I had maybe kicked it when, with one boot clipped in, I had knocked my other boot against the clipped in boot to clear snow off the sole.  Fritschi kindly replaced the toe-piece under warranty.  I was then very careful around the lever when stepping in but it happened again last winter.   I have not heard or read about this happening with anyone else so it may just be me!

In reply to JonLongshanks:

I use pin bindings; Dynafit ST(predecessor of Dynafit Rotation) for all my skiing, piste, off piste and touring. They’re fine for me, they stay on when they should and release when they should. I set my DIN to 6.5. 

In reply to Will_Thomas_Harris:

2nd this. 

In reply to tcashmore:

I've been using the Tecton for a couple of years now (mounted on a BD Helio 105) and I've been very impressed by them for hard charging. One day last week I spent a morning on them skiing fresh powder and the afternoon charging on the pistes through a mix of crud, chop and hardpack. If they weren't mounted on a lightweight carbon ski it would have been difficult to tell I was using a touring setup - the limiting factor was the ski, not the binding. Skiing them they day after using my Slalom skis with a Look SPX12 binding, I dind't notice a significant drop-off in power transfer. I'd also rate the Tecton higher than the Beast 14, which I have mounted on a set of Armada Norwalks that barely see any use now. 

The only downside I can see to using a touring binding as a dedicated resort ski is long-term durability as they're not designed to cope with the huge amount mileage you do inbounds as opposed to days in the backcountry. 

In reply to JonLongshanks:

Thanks for all the replies. Yep I'd definitely say I'm a 'normal' skier - nothing wild, maybe the odd mellow jump. 
Maybe I have the false expectation of these lightweight bindings popping at every bump or jump turn. 

Those hybrid bindings look really interesting. I like the idea of something feeling like an alpine binding and probably wouldn't mind the extra weight. I did use frame bindings for a week and managed to keep up.
It would be a matter of finding a second hand set though to keep the cost down.

Although sounds like pin bindings could be enough for me, in which case I'd need to determine whether the Beast or the Vipec is more suitable (I have found both second hand!)

In reply to JonLongshanks:

Remember, Beast 14 is the Radical toe and Beast heel (no flat touring mode, also note that with the heel insert, you shouldn’t use normal tech binders). Where as the Beast 16 has the ”Beast” toe. 
 

also, the Beast can be had reasonably cheaply. First of all, it is no longer made. And secondly, a lot of the older users are now getting either Shifts or Duke PTs.

In reply to JonLongshanks:as above dynafit st 2 s for everything over than sone times in Scotland with the kids when I use an old pair of movement skis with frame bindings , for those times I’d be better off with a normal pair of skis with normal bindings , I just don’t have any . A quick google suggests the st 2 s can be had for less than £200 which I think is a bargain . I m fairly sure that fristschi has all sorts of problems the vipecs so make sure you do plenty of research , they probably sorted it out but best check .  

In reply to JonLongshanks:

Personally, I wouldn’t generally recommend the vipecs for what you want.  I have some on my old ‘spare’ touring set up.  Ended up having to get them fixed with fritschi as the internal thread (or something) wore out and the binding kept adjusting itself and coming off.   Definitely don't get second hand as they probably well onto their way of wearing out.  I think this may be a fault with them as someone else I talked too on a recent ski trip also said they experienced this problem. Tectons seem considerably more robust and don’t weigh much more in addition to having full toe and heel release. Shifts look good also.  Unless you want real light weight specifically for long multi day tours.  Even then I’m not convinced …

In reply to JonLongshanks:

There were lots of problems with the earlier versions of the Vipecs (issues around ease of stepping into the toes and durability from what I remember).  I don't know about the model you are referring to.   As far as I'm aware they had all been superseded by the much improved Fritschi Tecton bindings, which also has a new 2022 model now out.  

I have the original Fritschi Tectons and I can't really fault them.  Easy to get in and out of, light enough for 2-3 hours skinning (I haven't tried them for any longer than this) and they release when I need them to.   I can't notice the difference between them and my downhill bindings when skiing on the pistes.  Moguls, fast short turns etc all fine.

I've skied and skinned with quite a few people with Shift bindings and my observation is that they can be quite temperamental (or perhaps less easy to get used to).  Various issues of difficulty getting into the bindings, the toe levers being hard to pull up to put them into skinning mode, and unwanted releases while skinning or skiing (resulting in 3 incidents of runaway skis on a trip I was on last week).   Conversely everyone I know who has Tectons has been happy with them right from the start.

  

In reply to JonLongshanks:

I've got a pair of Black Crows Camox Freebirds with Vipec bindings primarily with touring in mind. I'm happy to use them for the odd warm up day on piste and a bit of lift served off-piste (although I don't do a huge amount of this) but for a week of charging around on piste I'd worry (perhaps unduly) it would be putting too much stress on the bindings, I also wonder how good the release really is. More than that though, the skis aren't really I want for a week of piste skiing - sure, they'll do the job - in the same way a Landrover is perfectly capable of going round Silverstone, but it'll be much more fun in a Ferrari. There are normally pretty good end of season deals on all mountain/carve skis including bindings so you might want to think about getting a second pair.

In reply to Will_Thomas_Harris:

i wouldnt be doing backflips (not intentionally anyway!) on any kind of pin binding, hybrid or not! your point is largely valid however.

In reply to JonLongshanks:

I use Vipec bindings (the old style) on Scott Flyair skis for all my skiing which is mainly touring but includes some piste skiing as well. Been using them for about 7 or 8 years without any problems. While a heavier ski would make tracking on piste a bit easier I don't think the bindings come into it. How much longer they'll last I'm not sure, they have had a hard life so they don't owe me anything. 

In reply to Webster:

IMHo, there is no problems doing that... provided the landing is good (steep enough), you do the flip well enough and that the landing is on the soft side...

Now, if it on a frozen park kicker... maybe not .


Note, that I also don't do (intentional) flips.

In reply to JonLongshanks:

Honestly the biggest thing I found riding speed turns in resort is just that it was exhausting and the odd ramp angle really cocked up my piste skiing. That wasn't the case with kingpins. 

In reply to CathS:

As I understand, Tecton and Vipex are different models - Fritschi still make both I think ?  My Vipecs (which wore out) were 2nd or third generation with the improved step-in at the toe piece.  But like you, I've been really pleased with the Tecton both for all round skiing and skinning.

Cheers

In reply to tcashmore:

The latest version (Tecton 12 Carbon) look even better: lighter and even stronger with the use of carbon fibre. 

I was initially concerned that my Tecton 12s looked a bit 'plasticky', but they have taken quite a hammering since I got them and have proved very robust.   

In reply to JonLongshanks:

Thanks folks. Think I will try to get a pair of Fritschi Tectons! Sounds like they are just what I'm after, though I might have to squeeze the budget...

In reply to JonLongshanks: read all of this with interest. Skied hundreds of days in the resort/using lifts with a variety of tech bindings.

Now I don't. I have Alpine bindings on skis just using the lifts. Only use tech for touring. Lots of people think they know a lot. Cody Townsend is a Salomon athlete and no doubt has certain commercial pressures. 

However, when he unequivocally states "tech bindings are f***ing dangerous " I think he is worth listening to. He has more relevant knowledge than most on here. Then make your own mind up.

https://blisterreview.com/podcasts/cody-townsend-on-coffee-makers-bindings-...

In reply to HammondR:

Thanks for that link.  It's a very interesting interview.

Cody does seem to make a clear distinction in that statement (and also earlier in the discussion) between tech bindings and hybrid bindings such as the Shift and Tectons, which have a lateral toe release.    The basic objective of the development of the Shift as he describes was to develop a binding with the safety equivalence of an Alpine binding that can also be used for touring.  That is certainly how they (and the Tectons) are marketed (to us gullible punters!).

In reply to HammondR:

He talks a lot about locking the toe piece which gives the equivalent of a DIN 30. Not something your average tourer is likely to use or need. He's obviously a very talented extreme skier who puts his equipment under a huge amount of strain. Most of us don't. 

In reply to OwenM:

I think he was also thinking of the dangers of locked out toes when skinning, eg falling from or being avalanched off a steep traverse. I’ve no idea how Shifts behave in that situation? Most off piste skiers now use boots with vibram type soles, I’ve heard a counter argument of toes failing to release from an alpine binding because of too much friction with the binding foot plate compared to a smooth alpine sole; not sure how significant this is?

In reply to JonLongshanks:

My wife has those Vipec bindings and she struggles, endlessly, to get them on and off. Even getting the front binding to open and stay open, when properly iced up, seems to be an issue and, if her ski is on soft snow or a concave surface such that it bends too much, they just pop open straight away after seeming to accept the boot and close. Once clipped, however, they do actually seem to stay on during turns and even bumpy descents. (EDIT: She bought them at the beginning of this season so they can't be very old. Unlike my own Dynafits which are four years old, already, and seem to play nicer every time I step into them.)

She never had any issues with her old pin bindings (Dynafit, I think) so my anecdotal evidence is that those Vipec things are no good.

In reply to JonLongshanks:

Let us know how you get on.. I am interested in them as well potentially..

In reply to CathS:

Actually Tectons are not hybrid tech bindings. They are tech bindings with adjutable toe release. 
 

the only current hybrids (AFAIK) are Shift and Duke PT. Both are an actual alpine toepiece in downhill mode. The Pins are only used on the way up. 
 

Tectons and other ”pure” tech bindings rely on the pins both on the uphill and downhill portion.

but to an extent I agree with Cody. Alpine bindings make sense for lift served skiing. Alpine binders are more robust (you can use them for years and wear out multiple skis), less fiddly to use and, strictly speaking offer more elasticity (Look Pivots/Rossi FKS). Plus often offer more reliable release. Even with touring boot soles or GripWalk soles (check the exact model, What Sole is supported and vertified differs from binder to binder Look P15 GW is not for tourin soles, but GripWalk is OK, Marker models (some) also support Touring soles).Tech bindings for touring (on different skis). ’Cause they are light and nice. 
 

and here lies the dilemma, If you are only getting one pair of skis for everything. 

In reply to kevin stephens:

 I’ve heard a counter argument of toes failing to release from an alpine binding because of too much friction with the binding foot plate compared to a smooth alpine sole; not sure how significant this is?

That's quite an old issue, basically you shouldn't force a touring boot into a downhill binding as it won't release. Touring boots in pin bindings are fine.   

In reply to OwenM: yes but how about touring frame bindings, eg Marker Tour?

In reply to kevin stephens:

Touring frame bindings have adjustable toe heights to accommodate most rockered touring soles.

There are alpine bindings that have this feature as well but not all of them.

Not all boots and bindings are compatible and it's in the users interest to research what their boots will and will not work with. 

In reply to kevin stephens:

You need to look at the binding specs…

some models were rated for all boots (alpine, gripwalk, the gripwalk alternative I always forget, and touring), others less… thus might come as a surprice, but IIRC original Duke and Baron were not actually certified for touring soles. Tour F10/12 might have been (or not, newer bothered with such as I had tech bindings).

nowadays some alpine binders cater for all soles, some to only alpine, and something in between. So again, check what the binder is rated for…

or be like me, and just use old beat to sh!t Solly S914, that you  an easily cram a touring boot… actually I have Now gotten rid of those, but I use such a rig for many years (s914 were over 10 years at that time).

In reply to JonLongshanks:

Very interesting discussion. Have gone with a set of Fritschi Tecton bindings. Hopefully give them a go on Saturday if weather allows!

In reply to JonLongshanks: do yourself a big favour and bench test the lateral release with your boots after every week of skiing to ensure the toe fully releases.

In reply to JonLongshanks:

Not sure about the Tectons but the step in trigger on the earlier Vipecs doesnt work with boots which have a central notch/cutout at the front of the sole. There are various alternative methods of getting in to the bindings, none of which work well in awkward locations!

Anyone know why this notch is there?