UKC

I'm a moderately competent, VS/HVS-ish level snowboarder - comfortable on most pistes, do some easy powder & off-piste, been touring a few times - and in the long run I want to get more into touring. 

I've been debating between splitboard and learning to ski, but given the expense, faff and still limited capability of splitboards I'm inclining towards skis.

So: given that my long term goal is touring, is it worth buying touring gear form the word go so that I'm learning on what I eventually intend to be using? Or should I rent piste gear for the first couple of winters until I'm at least somewhat steady on my feet?

In reply to AlanLittle:

Just buy touring gear, get some lessons then as soon as you can stay upright on the things go touring. Just make sure you choose suitable objectives to start with.

I think too much emphasis is placed on being a great skier before you go touring. If your goal is to just to travel in the mountains by touring then just get out and do it.

In reply to AlanLittle:

Snowboarding is totally uncool now as well. Gets some skis.

More seriously, boots you can climb in too, are another advantage.

In reply to AlanLittle:

Skis are way better in the higher mountains, the only time I've been on a glacier with a snowboarder they "found" a crevasse in minutes. 

You probably want to learn on a nice robust set of bindings and stiff boots (i.e. downhill).  This is partly because you'll also want to do a lot of downhill skiing in order to build enough competence for touring.  

The heavier alpine touring bindings are basically like a downhill binding and take downhill boots but you can tour in them so this is about the most versatile option.  The flip side is that they are heavy and the boots and not especially ideal for touring.  But this is exactly how I learnt and I can't say I had major problems.  I'd probably do the same thing again and then bite the bullet in a year or two to buy a "proper" touring set-up if I specialised into that.   

If you enjoy it then the kit will either not matter, or matter so much you will just find the money to fix the problem.     

In reply to AlanLittle:

It also depends a bit on which bindings you'll want to ski tour on. Whilst Dynafit-type bindings are lighter, they don't release from the toe piece; so this increases the risks of injury if you fall a lot such as when learning.

In reply to AlanLittle:

There is nothing special about touring skis - apart from the fact that most tourers prefer lighter skis you could use anything really - although slalom skis would probably be frustrating!

Regarding bindings, you obviously need bindings with a skinning mode for touring, but there is nothing different about how you ride these bindings when the heel is locked down. So purely from the learning perspective there is nothing wrong with learning on a touring setup - but learning on a piste setup won't put you at a disadvantage either.

Given that you probably want something either relatively robust or cheap to learn on, I would suggest either buying a second-hand touring set-up or renting piste skis to learn on.  If you go with the touring set-up I would go with something with a lateral toe-release if you haven't skied before.

In terms of boots, be aware that most downhill bindings are not recommended for use with touring boots because they don't always release properly (apparently).  Buying your own boots is worth it, so if you want to buy touring boots from the outset you will struggle to rent compatible skis, especially in European alpine resorts where touring kit can be difficult to find.  You can get some boots with interchangeable sole units but they tend to be a bit heavy for more than day tours. 

I learnt on rented downhill kit.  Then I bought touring boots on a whim, which forced me into buying skis shortly after because I was getting frustrated with wanting to use my boots and struggling to rent kit.

In reply to kathrync:

Thanks (all) for the advice.

I had picked up on that issue, yes. And as a snowboarder I tend to regard falling over a lot as a normal part of the game.

What I have read in a few places, and was a bit worried about, is touring boots being too light & soft for on-piste use. Or is that more of a concern on world cup downhill runs than blue pistes?

In reply to DaveHK:

Skiing is a skill you can only teach yourself to a certain level. Being a climber I thought I could teach myself and spent years scratching around including the haute route etc. Real enjoyment came when I bit the bullet and had one on one lessons. Turned up on touring gear and the instructor made me change to downhill skis and boots.

Since then with additional skill and technique I can usually ski safely anywhere and in most conditions with more confidence and enjoyment. Managed to ski couloir capucin (55deg) in Cham., whereas before I would have been killed trying stuff like that as a missed turn near the top would be fatal.

My advice to anyone would be fast track and learn to ski before you develop shit technique that will take an age to rectify and hinder your enjoyment and development

Any guide will tell you on a big tour they,d rather have a good skier rather than a good climber!

In reply to AlanLittle:

I  have skied on piste in la sportiva sideral 2.0 and some cheap decathlon downhill boots on consecutive days, I didn't notice a great difference.

In reply to AlanLittle:

I second the warning about learning on (most) Dynafit-style tech bindings with no sensible toe release. I can supposedly ski, and I broke my leg at the start of the week falling with Dynafit bindings. While there's nothing wrong with them in the correct environment, you don't want to do too much flailing on them while you're learning.

Other than that, have at it, there's no reason not to. Just be sensible and conservative with your choice of objective. I also agree that skiing isn't something you get truly competent at by teaching yourself, but I'm sure you could make reasonable inroads, perhaps with some strategic lessons along the way.

In reply to AlanLittle:

I learnt to ski on light touring skis and boots, one week of group beginner lessons (with some initial scepticism by the instructor), parallel on day 2, first red on day 3. It doesn't hold you back, you know no better.

Yes, lighter does mean more flexible so the boot/ski needs to be skied better but isn't that the point, better balance and control. In comparison downhill boots/skis just seem to carry you along wherever they are going. The drills you get on downhill skis later on, like skiing with buckles open, well that's just like skiing in light and flexible touring boots isn't it.

An analogy: touring skis are like walking in nimble approach shoes, downhill skis are like walking in clumpy big boots.

 

In reply to AlanLittle:

There's a lot more cheap downhill gear around than touring kit. I'd get some comfortable second hand boots and really almost any ski will do. By the time you can ski with confidence they will be well warn out so you'll be ready to move up to a decent touring setup. 

In reply to Wry Spudding:

Not true.  The latest Dynafit radical 2 bindings have DIN certified toe release

In reply to kevin stephens:

Partially true. Many current and most previous tech bindings don't, it's a very valid thing to point out to someone who's new to touring!

In reply to AlanLittle:

I ski on touring skis the whole time. For downhill it makes no difference at all. For touring, the difference it makes is that I can tour without needing two pairs of skis. 

Can't really see why everyone doesn't do this. Sure, there's the set-up expense, which was about £400. But for that I get touring and downhill out of the same skis, plus I never have to hire another pair for any purpose. 

In reply to tehmarks:

that is so, but the default choice for pin bindings are now Radical 2 or Diamir alternative.  I made the change to pin bindings recently but wouldn't have without the DIN toe release

In reply to AlanLittle:

Better to spend money on lessons rather than gear at your stage, most self taught skiiers are rubbish.  The first gear you should buy is boots from a good boot fitter once reach a reasonable level; Properly fitted boots will help you improve your skiing further and respond to more advanced levels.  Many boots have a good walk mode for touring and standard alpine soles for hire skis, and can be used with frame type touring bindings 

In reply to kevin stephens:

 

Really? Myself, I only started getting anywhere with skiing when I packed in the lessons and started teaching myself. It was the lessons that were rubbish. (Not in Scotland--they were lessons in Austria, a long time ago now. And they were useless.)

One key moment in learning to ski (downhill) is when you go poleless. I never had a ski instructor who showed me how much I could improve my technique by putting the poles away and trying to do everything with my knees, my heels, and my sense of balance. Downhill, I still don't use poles. Eccentric perhaps, but it works for me.

 

In reply to Sophie G.:

well I did say Most! and there are a lot of rubbish instructors out there, especially old school Euro "bend zee knees" ski schools

In reply to kevin stephens:

Yes - but you're not the OP, and I don't think it's fair to assume the OP knows anything about bindings, or to assume the OP isn't going to eye up skis on eBay...

In reply to Sophie G.:

Agreed. Most people don't use poles effectively - or at all really, beyond flailing lazily with them. I stopped skiing with poles when someone nicked mine, and as a park bum I figured they weren't particularly important. Good lesson learnt - I found it much easier to stop being lazy without poles.

 

In reply to kevin stephens:

Sorry but the Dynafits don't have a toe release. DIN certified or otherwise. They have a rotating toe which, in conjunction with the strong springs in the heel unit provides for greater elasticity in the bindings preventing prerelease, and a feel when skiing like an alpine binding.

They have vertical release and lateral heel release. I have 2 sets of the same toe units with Beast bindings.

The only tech binding with toe release is the Vipec/Tecton. Not that that makes them any better or worse, just different.

 

In reply to HammondR: yes you are absolutely right , and explained it better than I could have. We are off on a bit of a tangent here; I recommended frame type touring bindings for the original poster as above

 

In reply to AlanLittle:

Seriously as a died in the wool skier all jokes aside just get a Jones split board. Some of the best snowboarders on the planet are now split board fanatics. Unless you're seriously considering touring for accessing winter routes the only real advantage nowadays between ski touring and split boarding is the a ability to schuss on the flat without skins on skis. Modern split boards can do pretty much anything ski touring equipment will do. It will be a steep initial investment but you'll save yourself buying 2 different sets of gear never mind the the years of effort and additional expense it will take you to get a to a reasonable standard of skiing, doubly so for off piste/powder. Save your money buy a split board and maybe get a really good high end instructor for some one on one lessons if you want to improve.

In reply to HammondR:

Trab seem to be advertising a fully-releasable lightweight tech binding on their website, though I don't know anything about it beyond the blurb.

But yes, enough of the thread diversion...

In reply to Frank4short:

After yet another walk of shame along a track today that mrs w skated along and had to keep waiting i yet again wished 10 years ago I invested in learning to ski rather than buying a splitboard.

In reply to AlanLittle:

Get touring gear and frame bindings when you're learning, pin bindings are a pain.....as Teh Mark has unfortunately found out.....

Hagan bindings are good and cheap, but lots of second hand stuff about. I would avoid a touring ski as they are generally rubbish on the piste/ice, with a few exceptions,  and that will be where you will be skiing mostly for a while. Don't pay for lessons, it's time on snow that counts. Cost of lessons pays for more time on snow.

In reply to Jim 1003:

I use Black Apple touring skis for all my downhill skiing, for the simple reason that I can't afford multiple pairs. They're not rubbish, they're absolutely fine for downhill. 

True, I'm not a novice skier, but I can't see why they'd be a problem to a novice. 

In reply to Sophie G.:

A good instructor would never have had you even close to poles until you were at least an intermediate skier in the first place. I can't believe or am saddened to think there must be instructors out there allowing so much use of poles at novice level. 

 

In reply to AlanLittle:

Wrong time of year, but I'd buy a pair of ex hire skis for UK use. £100-150 will get you something decent and by the time you've out grown them you will know what you want yourself. Some new boots need not be killer expensive, but a nice fit will make the world of difference to both your enjoyment and improvement. They aren't meant to be instruments of torture. 

In reply to Sophie G.:

We will just have to disagree on that...I tried those on a Movement test day and thought they were poor on hard pack, and terrible on ice...but I would expect that from such a ski...

 

In reply to summo:

Bollocks...

In reply to DaveHK:

Really. Travelling in the mountains invariably includes going downhill in all snow conditions. Being able to stand upright and do some snow plough turns doesn't make skiing in crud or breakable crust with a rucksack particularly easy.

If the original poster ends up going the ski route I would advise getting proper lessons on hired alpine gear until they are proficient on piste. Then venture in to some side country with a pack on to get a flavour of off piste skiing, before getting geared up for touring. If that touring takes place in the UK you'll encounter all types of snow conditions, tussocks and grass. If its in Europe you'll also need avi gear and know how to use it.

Oh and don't ski in a climbing hemet - a) it looks bloody ridiculous and b) isn't safe.

As mentioned above you may be just as well getting a good split board and touring on that.

In reply to Henry Iddon:

Can't be that difficult to change disciplines..

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/winter-olympics/43095089

In reply to Jim 1003:

Each to their own. Many people with poles should really spend more time focussing on their posture, feet etc  than poles. The amount of money people spend on expensive new carving skis, twin tips etc..  then spend their day skid turning, such a waste. As an instructor once said to me we've come to ski, but your stopping or heavy braking on ever turn. 

Our kids will be in on reds with ski school tomorrow and there won't be a pole in sight. They'll learn to manoeuvre on their edges onto the lifts and skate any flat bits as they get around the mountain. 

In reply to Henry Iddon:

Unless, oddly, you're in a ISMF accredited skimo race, where everyone will be wearing one!

In reply to AlanLittle:

Getting yourself to a vs . /hvs standard in skiing is best done on straightforward downhill gear probably cheaper bought second hand than hired for 2 weeks. 

You can then buy out and out touring gear further down the line. 

Enjoy the learning it may take a while!

In reply to TobyA:

Not anymore, the rules changed last year, helmets need to be climbing AND ski certified now.

In reply to Dark-Cloud:

OK, although my mate was talking to the Scottish series organisers recently because he wanted to check before buying a new Sirocco - and they OKed it, so perhaps some of the national series haven't changed the rules yet? He was going to go to the Lecht around New Year to do the race there although didn't in the end as the weather was so poor - I guess if that was the very end of December the rules could have changed since Jan 1st anyway...?

In reply to Jim 1003:

As someone who learnt to ski without lessons I'd say that was very bad advice - its taken me years to get out of bad habitats picked up at the start.

In reply to TobyA:

Pretty much as you describe, it was introduced 2016/17 season when the international federation made the change, its then up to the individual members what they do but with ISMF sanctioned events you will need a helmet that’s dual certified, the good guys and gals who organise the Scottish series announced they won’t be imposing it and I have raced their events in a BD Vector, good write up here:

http://www.skintrack.com/skimo-racing/skimo-helmet-ismf-rule-changes/

 

In reply to Doug:

 

spot  on advice. 

Falling over in difficult to ski snow, wearing a rucsac gets very tiring and is not much fun. Pretty much sums up off piste when you can't ski well. 

Have lessons. I don't understand the (British) antipathy towards them. 

 

In reply to Tim Davies:

I guess there are some weird and wonderful paths that end up at the same point which is why some people end up ski touring having had no, or virtually no, lessons. I had a couple of hours of group lessons when I first tried skiing as 18 year old in New Zealand. I skied a couple more times on rented alpine gear at Scottish resorts when I started uni, but bought my own tele gear and went into 25 years of tele skiing, at first with a friend teaching me, and later trying to use a book for instruction. I've done a lot of ski mountaineering on tele gear and having to chase to keep up with my friends and enough falling in difficult snow conditions, plus new AT gear being lighter now than tele, got me to eventually buy AT gear.

I'm certain I would benefit from lessons, but am at a point in life where I don't have either huge amounts of time or money to spend on just me - so any time I get to ski now, I know I will get the most satisfaction from it if I just get out and tour. So I strongly agree with Dave Kerr's "just get out and tour" comment earlier - true for me currently, but I guess Alan needs to think what he wants to do with his skiing time this and next winter and whether touring, albeit skiing down all too imperfectly like me!, is what he most wants, or whether get some lessons or coaching at getting smooth is what he wants.

In reply to TobyA:

I had a week of half day lessons with Snoworks this year and learned a great deal on skiing crust and breakable crust a lot better and more elegantly - gives me a lot of confidence for dealing with similar conditions in the future.  Never stop learning.

In reply to TobyA:

I came to touring on mountains from XC skiing in Scottish forests so toured from day one. Although I didn't have formal lessons for many years I did occasionally ski with  friends who were ski instructors who gave some tips/advice, both on piste & elsewhere. At the time I was a student & didn't want to pay for lessons but I'm sure I would be a better skier today if I had and would have improved more rapidly.

If I didn't have the money I'd probably do the same again - & maybe regret it several years later

In reply to Henry Iddon:

As ever much pontificating from many folks. Dave has successfully done what you and him has just described. Multiple snow types...

It is true that if you have the time and money, lessons will help no end. It is however entirely possible to do without. It just takes longer and you're progression to more technically demanding terrain will only happen if you re truly dedicated and have the right mindset.

skiing with a climbing helmet is better than skiing without helmet. Skiing without helmet is not recommended but does not necessarily mean instant death. Indeed most folks skied without until they became cheaper, lighter and more comfortable...between 10-15 years ago. Before that no-one did and most of us survived.

To OP. I started skiing as a kid. Some lessons but mostly on my tod with pals (albeit huge amount of practice and access), then started boarding almost solely for 6 years in my teens,  then self taught myself telemarking with no one doing so locally. 

Self-taught is less efficient and as someone pointed out you will develop more bad habits- lessons limit the amount but you will still develop your "style" regardless! If what you are after is the freedom of the hills in winter than go for whatever. I have never used a splitboard, they seem pricey but I believe that in recent years they have become very reliable. I would posit that Scotland backcountry isn't that great for boarders...too much flatness about. Have fun and tailor your intro according to your means- if minted, lessons and kit (with a ski specific helmet), if not self taught with climbing helmet (don't skimp on the boots though).

In reply to Henry Iddon:

How is skiing in a climbing helmet unsafe? Do you mean compared with a skiing helmet? It's surely safer than skiing with nothing on your head.

I used to ski with no helmet. Since what happened to poor old Michael Schumacher, that's changed. But the helmet I wear is a climbing helmet. In certain possible accidents it might be less use than a skiing helmet, but hey, we all accept *some* risks. 

In reply to kevin stephens:

worth a thread of its own...truly outstanding!

In reply to Sophie G.:

Schumacher was wearing a helmet. I think the outcome was the head injury was caused by the GoPro he had mounted on it punching through the shell.

In reply to French Erick:

I'm guessing this is re my post of 03:03 rather than 18:17?

In reply to Dark-Cloud:

really! I'd never heard that - does make me think about my helmet mounted lights.

In reply to Dr.S at work:

Yep, plenty of stuff online around the time of the injury, don’t think it was ever conclusively proved but was based on helmet damage.

In reply to AlanLittle:

I am/was in exactly the same position as you. A pretty competent snowboarder for 8 years but fancied getting in to touring for the uphill fitness. Didn’t fancy the split board as it just seems too much of a faff.

I did a “learn to ski in a day” course at the snowdome in Glasgow. By the end of which I could get down the hill using pretty rough parallel turns. 

I decided the bite the bullet and get touring skis and binding from the start. I can’t afford 2 setups and if I’m doing a lot of piste days I’ll probably use the board anyway. 

Did my first tour on Saturday, a nice gentle ascent of A’chailleach. The downhill was obviously a lot harder than a piste and I was far from graceful but was safe and I enjoyed the uphill so I got what I wanted out of it. 

Did a full day at Cairngorm ski centre yesterday just getting used to the longer and wider skis. Struggled a bit for a few hours but by the end of the day it was going a lot better. 

My skiing needs a lot of work and I’ll probably get a lesson again in the future but it didn’t stop me going out and enjoying an easy tour which I can hopefully now build on. 

In reply to Dark-Cloud:

Thanks for the heads up on that. Here in Norway a climbing helmet is still acceptable. Note that the reason us skimo types like the climbing-style helmets is that they're light and airy. We wear them on the up, and we're pushing hard, so overheating is likely! I have the camp speed 2.0, which weighs 268g. The latest version which meets all the new requirements, Camp Speed Comp, weighs 356g and has much less ventilation. Camp are the best at minimalism for skimo, so that's about as light as it'll get. In Norway they have however decided that Camp's little plastic shovel is no longer acceptable. You have to have metal shovels for races. I did find the arva ultra shovel at 290g, which is pretty sweet!

As for the original post, in my experience with touring, it depends what sort of touring whether split boarding works. If you're all about the down you can try to target routes without much flat. But if you're looking to tour, there will likely be a lot of gentle downhills and short ups, also negotiating trees and small streams and stuff. Skis are just way more flexible.

As for lessons, it really depends on your athleticism and body awareness. As you can already snowboard, that will help. And if you are careful about what you ski, you can enjoy many great tours on terrain < 30deg, and only ski in decent conditions and nice weather and you'll be fine with medium ski skills, but to really open up the possibilities you need to be able to ski all types of snow at angles up to 35deg or more, and in all conditions. Yesterday I was skiing down a 40deg slope in flat light and the terrain varied between ice, wind blown dense powder and sastrugi - I couldn't tell which until my skis touched it. Good balance and good technique become essential if you don't want to fall and slide down in to the rocks.

Lessons with a good instructor are always better. Common errors I see are poor upper body position leaving people off-balance, I see a lot of A-framing, where the body position is poor and the inside ski is used as a balance support. I also see many people leaning back too much. All of these failures get worse as conditions get more difficult, and result in less control of the skis and a higher risk of falling. A good instructor can teach you drills to improve on these and other poor technique.

Of course, if you want to become really competent in all sorts of terrain, then you'll need to have started as a kid and have grown up in a ski resort!

Edited because < 3 without the space becomes a heart!

In reply to AlanLittle:

Thanks to all & sundry for an interesting & informative discussion. Conclusions I've reached:

• I intend to take lessons. There are a couple of schools near me who teach parallel from the word go, starting on really short skis & going progressively longer over the course of several weekends. These are what I'm thinking of doing.
• I'm now thinking after the lessons I'll decide whether to hire - or buy cheap/used - non-touring gear for a season or two
• ... then I should know enough about what I can do, or want to do, & accordingly whether I should go for a more piste/in-bounds oriented setup with some touring capability, or a full-on lightweight touring rig. (Or a splitboard after all!)

I've already done some snowboard touring on snowshoes & borrowed/hired splitboards & have basic avy training - although admittedly only very limited experience - and I have every intention of continuing to be *extremely* careful in that regard.