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Poor, stuck in Switzerland, learn to ski

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 tomaspkr 27 Oct 2020

I'm working remotely from Switzerland with a UK PhD stipend, half of which goes to the UK.

Want to learn how to ski (never skied), would be even willing to buy skis/boots. Checked a few websites and instructors here can charge around £500 for private lessons! That's half of my monthly stipend for one days lessons.

If you were a broke student wanting to learn skiing in Switzerland, how would go about it?

Should I just accept that lessons are too expensive, splurge on skis and just learn based on YouTube videos?

 Richard Horn 27 Oct 2020
In reply to tomaspkr:

Thats quite expensive, but probably in the same order as what I have paid a guide for a days guiding (though usually split between a group)

A group lesson should be much cheaper - not sure you need to be going with one-on-one when you first start?

I have been skiing for 30+ years, but am a complete novice at snowboarding, I have tried a few times to learn snowboarding on my own and got nowhere!

 MG 27 Oct 2020
In reply to tomaspkr:

You don't need a full day's lesson. In fact that's far too long. A couple of hours will be knackering to begin with. Then mix the odd hour or so with lots of practice without instruction. 

 summo 27 Oct 2020
In reply to tomaspkr:

I'd work on initially having a couple of hours to give you the basics, those will enable you to stop, steer and use the lifts. Then it's all about mileage, with lessons now and then. Combine the practical lessons with some online stuff, nothing beats real lessons but the videos will remind you of the tips and pointers, plus lots of good drills to do when training. 'Ski school by elate media' are one of the better ones. 

Don't feel under pressure or embarrassed when doing the drills, holding poles or arms certain ways, staying on the easiest slopes, going slow etc..  learning the basics properly will have you skiing like a native in a season and not like a brit on holiday. 

Watch others ski, their arms, posture etc... don't try to learn everything in one run, each run down try to focus on just one thing at a time so the brain isn't overwhelmed, engrain the good habits day by day, play the long game. 

Most importantly have fun, but get a helmet and back protector. 

Post edited at 08:33
OP tomaspkr 27 Oct 2020

Thanks everyone.

Regarding skis, I would like to ski tour/mountaineer eventually. Should I just buy a ski touring setup and learn downhill skiing with it? Or get something worn/second hand and trash it while I learn?

 David Riley 27 Oct 2020
In reply to tomaspkr:

You'd be better to start by hiring.

 OwenM 27 Oct 2020
In reply to tomaspkr:

Go second hand you'll trash it eventually. Once you've cracked it is the time to get good kit.

 jakkm77 27 Oct 2020
In reply to tomaspkr:

Wether you get lessons or not, have a look at the following instructional videos:

http://www.skischoolapp.com/

(you pay a bit for the app, but the same videos are free on youtube).

They are excellent, and even if you take a class you will likely get more out of it after watching these.

 Doug 27 Oct 2020
In reply to tomaspkr:

depending on where you are, it might be cheaper to have lessons in Italy or France. Do you have any contacts with a local university ? its possible there might be something available through a student ski club.

 summo 27 Oct 2020
In reply to tomaspkr:

Have a walk around places now and ask if they are selling off ex hire skis as new season stock arrives. 

 Groundhog 27 Oct 2020
In reply to tomaspkr:

I too was very poor when I started skiing. I bought second hand kit and taught myself along with pals in the same situation. We eventually got good enough to do black runs, off piste and touring. You will of course get there quicker with lessons but it can be done without. Don't think about touring until you can ski well on piste.

 bigbobbyking 27 Oct 2020
In reply to tomaspkr:

You might find a local ski sale to get some kit cheaply. Where are you in Switzerland? When I was in Geneva there was one in St. Genis just across the border in France, called a "Bourse au Ski" I think. If you're in a French speaking part that is probably the key word to search for to find a local "jumble sale". It had locals selling their old kit, and the local shops selling off their old kit. 

Also definitely consider going across a border to get some cheaper lessons.

 tomsan91 27 Oct 2020
In reply to tomaspkr:

You dont want to learn on a tech touring binding or with a grip walk boot in an alpine binding. Learning will involve lots of falling where you want the skis to release without any drama, hire or look for some cheap ex-hire skis. Its going to be a while before you will be in a position to enjoy skiing off-piste without falling over so a cheap alpine set-up will do you well.

 Eduardo2010 27 Oct 2020
In reply to tomaspkr:

Cheaper to learn in France, check out UCPA courses.

Lift passes can be super expensive, depending on where you live look at the magic pass: a whole winter of skiing for 549 chuffs:

https://www.magicpass.ch/en/pages/magic-pass-2

As others have said, buy a second hand set up for cheap, and spend as many days out as you can.

Post edited at 10:04
 Doug 27 Oct 2020
In reply to Will_Thomas_Harris:

Worth remembering that the cost of a lift pass varies greatly and as a beginner its not worth paying for somewhere like Verbier. Instead look for small, family orientated resorts which are likely to be half the price. The skiing will be limited but that doesn't matter much for a beginner.

 freeflyer 27 Oct 2020
In reply to tomaspkr:

If your local language skills are any good, ask around about local community ski sunday type schemes, which are common in France and are designed to get you transport and lift pass for relatively little money. If you're successful, they'll almost certainly have good advice about gear and tuition.

Only a bit jealous ...

 Dark-Cloud 27 Oct 2020
In reply to Doug:

Ha! I learned to ski in Verbier, it was somewhat of a baptism of fire when I started, been back there many times ever since though, it's a great area when you can make use of it fully, going to miss it this year..

 jdh90 27 Oct 2020
In reply to tomaspkr:

It's a bit like trad climbing in that theres an element of danger in the sport, and while it is possible to get some second hand gear and teach yourself, theres a risk that you waste money by not getting the right gear at the right time or expose yourself and others to more danger by not getting the basics dialled.

Beginners rental skis are often a little shorter and more flexible than higher performance ones. These make the first few manoeuvres easier to pick up but you'll outgrow them. If you bought a second hand performance ski it would likely trip you up a bit at first.

Well fitting boots are the most important piece of keeping your planks under control and the best first investment. As mentioned touring boots probably aren't what you want at first, so you might be looking at a second hand pair of alpine boots which get traded in down the line. Good fit will be crucial so avoid buying without trying on and reading up on what a good fit is. Avoid ones where the plastic lugs that engage the bindings are very worn or broken. These are unsafe.

I'd suggest some lessons on rental gear until you can navigate blue runs in control. Group lesson will bring the cost down and easy runs should be achievable within a couple of days. From there, try to get mileage and tips from experienced friends, occasionally checking back in with a pro for coaching.  People who aren't in control are a real danger to themselves and others on the slopes and a good instructor will keep you on terrain that's within your ability and good for progression.

You have a lot of hours practice ahead of you before you're ready to tour!

 ClimberEd 27 Oct 2020
In reply to jdh90:

Yes, a lot of what he said.

Mix lessons in with a lot of practice, ideally with friends who can ski and help with tips.

Depending on how much money you do have this might be morning lessons and afternoon practice for a couple of weeks. Then a couple of weeks of just skiing, then a few more lessons at a higher level etc.  Or you could do two mornings and then ski the rest of the week, and do that every week for a few weeks.

Kit wise just rent or buy second hand until you've been skiing at least 4-6 weeks imho. Make sure the boots fit.

mysterion 27 Oct 2020
In reply to tomaspkr:

Once past complete beginner what you want are a pair of 'all mountain' skis. Your own pair of comfy boots are a priority though, you can always tighten them up later with insoles.

Post edited at 13:34
 jdh90 27 Oct 2020
In reply to tomaspkr:

Bit of a curveball but another thought just crossed my mind.  The person I've seen pick it up fastest and need least lesson time was a figure skater.

The cheapest way to become a great skier might be to get used to sliding around on slippy stuff in a cheaper sport like ice skating or cross country.   Then your lift ticket is used for acquiring the downhill specific skills or strategies in variable snow, rather than building generic balance and coordination.

1
 Doug 27 Oct 2020
In reply to jdh90:

> The cheapest way to become a great skier might be to get used to sliding around on slippy stuff in a cheaper sport like ice skating or cross country.  

might be an option - I skied XC for a couple of years before I tried alpine skiing &, comparing my progress with others in my beginners class, I did seem to pick up the basics more quickly.  But if I'd spent the time XC skiing on alpine skis maybe I'd have progressed more quickly ?

In reply to tomaspkr:

I learnt on a very tight budget while living in France.

If you go for a week then it is probably easier to hire gear, but if you go for odd days and weekends it is cheaper and less faff to buy your own. In france there are ski markets (Bourses aux skis) at the start of winter run by clubs where you can buy cheap 2nd hand gear, maybe there is an equivalent in Switzerland? Otherwise I think Decathlon is good.

Clothes suitable for UK winter hillwalking work fine, I've never bothered with anything ski specific.

I wasn't planning on having any lessons, I watched a load of youtube videos on the basics and then hoped to teach myself. But when I got there I found even the green slopes intimidating and also had no idea how to use the lifts. So I paid for an hour with an instructor which was enough to get me onto lifts and down green runs.

Apart from a brief try with group lessons, which I found a waste of time and money, I haven't bothered with instruction again.

Try not to jump onto harder pistes too soon - I think skiing is among the few skills that are learnt fastest by staying inside the comfort zone. Although as climbers it is impossible to resist the temptation to take the lift up to the highest point possible, and getting into a bit of trouble is probably inevitable.

I always take a flask and sandwiches for a pisteside picnic, the restaurants accessible from the piste are expensive.

Skiing is great, make the most of your opportunity and don't let being broke put you off.

 girlymonkey 27 Oct 2020
In reply to tomaspkr:

I learnt by getting a job in a centre where british kids came for school ski camps. I worked mornings and evenings and in the afternoons I joined the kids lessons. It was great! You might not have time for that, but if you ask around there might be some sort of work which would allow something similar?

 freeflyer 27 Oct 2020

Since the OP has asked about ski-touring, this seems like a good place to ask if anyone on here has done any telemark skiing?

I've been interested in having a go for years as it looks megacool, although possibly quite difficult and embarrassing if it goes pear-shaped, which I'm thinking is quite likely!

However enquiries about hiring gear in the Alpine ski tourist places have always been met with a firm "désolé", and although you can buy gear online in some places, it seems a bit over the top for a quick try-out.

Now I notice there's a company offering tuition and holidays:

http://www.telemarkskico.com/

I'm thinking this might be an excuse for a trip to Scandinavia when I'm allowed.

 Toerag 27 Oct 2020
In reply to tomaspkr:

Make friends with a ski instructor and get them to teach you skiing in return for you taking them climbing (or whatever else you can offer).  As to a venue, I'd look to smaller 'locals' areas to get better value.  I'd suspect the whole industry will be desperate for money due to covid so there will be some deals to be had.  I learnt to snowboard on holiday (I've never skiied) by doing a lesson each morning and practising myself each afternoon.  It's best to master things properly before moving to more difficult runs as that will make things easier and less dangerous.

Don't even think about learning to snowboard if touring is your ultimate aim.

 Doug 27 Oct 2020
In reply to freeflyer:

Done nearly all my touring & piste skiing on telemark gear, there's a few others who post who do or have telemarked as well. When I started nordic gear had the advantage of being lighter but that's no longer the case but I still enjoy 'bending my knees' and the telemark turn is really fun in deep soft snow.

Post edited at 16:00
 jdh90 27 Oct 2020
In reply to Doug:

Yeah I have no doubt that the *best* practice for alpine skiing is alpine skiing.  But would it always be the most cost effective? How many days would have been poor learning conditions up the mountain but could have been good (and cheaper!) sliding time somewhere else? What's the comparative cost of gear and access to venues?

OP asked specifically about "cheapest".  If you are time rich but money poor then spending extra time doing the cheaper activity could make sense to maximise the value when you pay to hit the slopes.  The cost benefit will come down to specifics around OPs situation, but cross training can't hurt.

I know they dont scratch the same experience itch.  It's not a normal progression.  I know I've done the awful UKC thing of "you want X? No, what you really want is Y!".  I expect that's why it attracted a dislike from someone.  Just offering an opportunity to think outside the box a bit. 

I taught the beginner lesson to the figure skater.  I offered to move her out of my class into a higher group but she had made friends so I just had her doing slightly different and more advanced drills - was starting to experience carving turns on mellow angles on the third day!  XC skiers, surfers, dancers etc also generally progressed well.  So did rough and tumble types like climbers, rugby players and martial artists who could control fear or didn't mind falling over - but also more likely to overestimate themselves and be a bit of a hazard!

 Pina 27 Oct 2020
In reply to tomaspkr:

Where are you based?

OP tomaspkr 27 Oct 2020
In reply to Pina:

I'm based in Zurich.

Thanks for the tips everyone, will take an hour or two of group lessons with rental gear, check the boot sizing and then will probably try to get second hand gear. Will use google to look for it, but if anyone knows anything more specific would be glad to know.

Trading climbing skills for skiing sounds interesting as well. Would be happy to trade what I know for some ski lessons if I can find someone interested.

 rexybo 27 Oct 2020
In reply to tomaspkr:

It's common in Switzerland that you can rent skis from a shop for a whole season and the cost is a lot, lot cheaper than renting them on a daily basis at a resort. You can usually swop boots, skis etc throughout the winter so it's a good way to try a few different things out. I was in Basel when I was doing this so can't name a shop in Zurich but there will be one. I think it cost me about 300 CHF for the whole season.

Do you have a car? There is a german ski resort called Feldberg that's about 45 mins drive from Basel. Quarantine aside, it's half the price of a swiss resort and much cheaper for lessons. It's not really possible to get there without a car though.

One other option to check out is the ski bus. I dont know if it exists in Zurich but from Basel you can catch a bus from Bahnhof to whichever resort is on offer and the lift pass is included in the price. The cost is usually the same as the lift pass price so it's the cheapest way to go to the resorts as the travel is effectively free. If I were you, I would use my german googling skills to see if I can find a Zurich coach company running the same kind of scheme. Although, I guess corona might get in the way of that one. 

 smollett 27 Oct 2020
In reply to tomaspkr:

When I moved to Norway for a few years I just bought skis, put them on my feet and went from there. I fell over (a lot) but I found it a satisfying way to learn. Best just get the skis put them on and try it. I did a 50km day out within a couple of weeks (dawn til dusk but made it).

Did the same with a paraglider off ebay, but with hindsight that wasn't the best plan.

 S Ramsay 28 Oct 2020
In reply to tomaspkr:

Skiing is amazing but there is no getting around the fact that it is very expensive, even if you already live in a skiing country. The following suggestion is based on the assumption that you are sporty and confident, are treating skiing partly as training for touring/mountaineering and therefore it doesn’t need to be fun absolutely all of the time, are prepared to commit a lot of the cost up front and to spending a lot of your free time this winter to skiing.

Engelberg is 2 hours by train from Zurich HB, it has one of the longest seasons in the Alps due to its high altitude, aspect, and high snowfall levels, October to May, arguably has the best snow in the Alps and a season pass is 900 CHF if purchased before 31st of October (945 CHF after). The on piste skiing area is quite small but is very good quality. When learning good snow is really useful, the skis perform how they should almost naturally and then when you have got a good feel for it you can force the skis to perform in poorer conditions.

For your very first few days on snow you may be best going elsewhere as Engelberg isn’t great for absolute beginners as its nursery slopes are quite low and probably won’t open till mid-December.

If you can afford it a weekend at Gstaad 3000 with a couple of hours of tuition would be ideal as this opens on the 7th of November, has gentle slopes at high altitude, and conditions are currently reported to be good. Once you have got the basics it is realistic to improve through trial and error, youtube videos, copying others and the odd hint or tip but in my few opinion must people would hugely struggle without an initial few hours of tuition. People who are already competent ice skaters may be able to skip the initial tuition as there is some crossover between the two. If you did this first it may give you a good idea if you really want to commit to a season pass and skiing every weekend.

A return train from Zurich costs about £36 if bought a little in advance. Check this yourself. Therefore, if you spent 40 days at Engelberg (I’ve assumed that occasionally you will need to do something else with your weekends) between November and April the cost would be about £2200. It aint cheap but this is probably about as good value as it gets. On top of that you need some money for lessons, perhaps an initial weekend at Gstaad 3000, plus money for boots and skis. Spending 40 days at Engelberg would be very repetitive as there aren’t very many pistes and hence why it would need to be treated partly as training as opposed to pure fun but by mid-way through the season you should be able to play in some of the off-piste and aiming to be ready to tour by the end of the season would not be unrealistic. If you’re a PHD student can you go on some weekdays and then work at the weekends? This would make this plan much enjoyable as Engelberg can be pretty busy at the weekends and alternating ski days with work days would keep the skiing feeling interesting and give your body plenty of recovery time.

OP tomaspkr 28 Oct 2020
In reply to S Ramsay:

Thanks, this is an amazing advice. It was getting a bit daunting with all the resorts available, so this helps to narrow things down. And being a climber I am not that interested in downhill skiing for pleasure, just want to pick up the skills for ski touring so I am happy just getting the mileage in as quickly as possible. 

 summo 28 Oct 2020
In reply to tomaspkr:

>  And being a climber I am not that interested in downhill skiing for pleasure

All 'free the heel free the mind' mountaineer touring type skiers say this, they just buy full season resort passes to support the local economy.  

 CathS 28 Oct 2020
In reply to tomaspkr:

Depending on where you are based in Switzerland, the Magic Pass, which is a cheap season pass covering a large number of the smaller ski areas, could be the best value option for you.  You may be too late for the early (very good) deals on this now though.

In reply to tomaspkr:

Hi Tomas

Generally good idea to get some lessons if you can to start with.  Never used an app but could be OK once you have the basics.  

A few bits of info, hope helpful:  

UCPA

Not sure where you are based but definitely cheaper to get lessons and buy kit in France or Italy.  As others have said, UCPA offers cheap courses aimed at people in your position.  I don't know the exact details but believe it is at least partly subsidised by the French government.  There is a big UCPA centre in Argentiere in the Chamonix valley.  

If you are anywhere near Geneva let me know as I live in the city and regularly head up to Chamonix with space in my car.  Happy to give you a lift if timings work.  

https://www.ucpa.com/?gclid=Cj0KCQjwreT8BRDTARIsAJLI0KJ9Eyf3NKsc_Prs14vOqrP...

Buy Club

Also check out Buy Club:  https://www.buyclub.ch/

It's a Swiss website/app that has bulk buy offers, which often includes cheap ski passes and lessons during the winter.  Given the continuing COVID disruption, I expect quite a lot of resorts might offer discounted tickets this year just to get some revenue.  

Magic Pass

Cheap season ticket that covers a whole bunch of resorts mainly around the Valais region.  May be too late for this season but if you get an early bird ticket it's only CHF 300 for the season or something.  Includes some decent places like Saas Fee and Les Diablerets, plus a bunch of smaller resorts.  

https://www.magicpass.ch/en/

Eagle Ski Club

If you want to learn to tour then the Eagle ski club offers grants for under-35s to assist with getting started.  In previous years these grants have covered anything from ski lessons to kit to avalanche education. 

Worth checking out:  https://www.eagleskiclub.org.uk/skills/awards

Facebook

Lots of good groups around where you can get cheap kit.  Check out for example the Chamonix group/for sale in Chamonix etc.  

Feel free to drop me a PM if you want more info.  And enjoy the skiing - it's going to be a good winter with the El Nino cycle...

Cheers

AMB 

In reply to tomaspkr:

I used to live in Zurich and learnt to ski while there. My fave resorts were the nearer, quieter ones:

https://www.atzmaennig.ch/en/winter/winter-specials/skiing/

https://www.skiliftbrunni.ch/Default.aspx?language=en-GB

https://www.flumserberg.ch/en

https://www.hoch-ybrig.ch/en/winter/

There's also Wildhaus which friends recommended for skiing although I've only been there for walking:

https://www.wildhaus.ch/winter.html

You may find second hand skis etc on the English Forum:

https://www.englishforum.ch/market-place/

Have fun!

(Wish I was still there!)

 critter 29 Oct 2020
In reply to tomaspkr:

Some suggestions, buy a copy of the ' All Mountain Skier' (R Elling) you can usually find a copy on well known auction site for £6. Really useful book that every skier should buy.

' Stomp it Tutorials' on YouTube are good. Find the entry level ones first, not the freeestyle ones!

When you have some money and piste experience, the courses run by Alison Thacker ( Offpiste Performance) in Chamonix are excellent. Specifically the skiing for mountaineers course. 

This would be a good start, the first two won't cost you more than £6.

 Garethza 29 Oct 2020
In reply to tomaspkr:

Just buy some old second hand kit or the previous years hire kit which they are probably trying to offload anyway.. make sure the boots fit! 

Then if you have any previous experience on a board or something like that you should be able to pick it up fairly quickly! Watch some videos online for the basics that any instructor will tell you then just muck around until you can turn with some sort of control on some beginner slope then just get down some blues then perhaps get some tuition.

I bought a touring set up last winter for scotland, although i come from a snowboarding background i had never skiied before and headed to glenshee to 'nail the basics' and could do parallel-ish turns by the end of the day... but i guess i had some prior experience of sliding around so your mileage may vary! 


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