UKC

I'm looking to get into doing some ski in, climb up, ski down trips this winter. Some amazing stuff out there in the Cairngorms (and the NW, given appropriate conditions...) where I can see skis making all the difference in good conditions, not to mention the descent possibilities. With that in mind, any tips, tricks and tweaks in terms of optimally stashing skis on the rucksack whilst climbing? Presumably A-frame, but I'm looking for the nitty gritty. I wouldn't imagine doing anything too technical in the way of climbing on such trips - max probably IV mixed or V ice. I have a Patagonia Ascentionist 35 which has two compression straps on each side and, handily, a very lightweight but robust removable frame.

Edit: have just got some TLT 5s, so it'll be skis with tech bindings.

And what are your experiences of downhill in the dark (which, let's face it, is the way many of the best winter days end!) I've got a Black Diamond Icon Polar headtorch. Bright enough? Or not really?

And a last question: how often have you managed to ski not just the Red Burn but from the Halfway Lochan down to the upper car park fence on the North Face approach? Don't think I've descended on foot in suitable conditions.

In reply to Tricadam:

Its frustrating how infrequently good skiing & good winter climbing come together in Scotland, at least in my experience. And although easy routes with skis (see https://ukc2.com/i/41278.jpg ) are OK it helps if the skis are short. On harder climbing they just get in the way.

Skiing in the dark is fine with clear skies & a full moon, & appalling in thick cloud. Its not just the skiing, its also the navigation.

But have fun

In reply to Tricadam:

You'll be surprised by how rarely this is actually the case. Whilst good days can be had I find it's usually more enjoyable to separate the two disciplines. Good climbing and good skiing conditions don't often occur at the same time in Scotland.


Slide them into the compression straps, pull the tips together and pop a bungee over them. I got some shock cord and knotted it into a loop for this. Make sure the straps are done up tight as moving edges can wreck a bag very quickly. Also, an empty bag flops around a lot making the carry less stable.

I think grade V ice with skis on my bag would be an utter ball ache. Avoid narrow gullies and chimneys!


A regular climbing head torch will be fine to get you home, for extended night skiing get one of those cheap Chinese MTB lights although mounting on a climbing helmet might be difficult


That would be pretty rare. Burn lines filled with wind blown snow are your friends here.

In reply to DaveHK:

Thanks for the replies, guys. I know what you mean about the two disciplines tending, in Scotland, to require rather different conditions: powder = ski, consolidated = climb. This is, I think, also due to the fact that most of our winter crags face north to east and therefore get loaded whenever there's significant snowfall. There are though some crags that sneakily face the other way which could be good in those conditions, while still providing good powder for the descent. Lurcher's springs to mind. Or the south-facing crags in the Loch Avon basin.

Yes, it's sad that a ski all the way back to the upper car park on the Ben doesn't tend to happen! Aonach Mor would be a different proposition though

Thanks for advice on on the practicalities of attaching to the sack, Dave. I'm hoping that mixture of cunning compression straps and the back frame will keep them reasonably stable, even with the bag half empty, but will have to see. And yes, can think of plenty of narrower routes where the skis could be a distinct disadvantage - or might provide some sort of novel form of aid!

In reply to Tricadam:

I ve got a small BD sack that has releasable buckles on all four compression straps , these make getting the skis on and off a breeze . Problem is , its a fraction too small for most lakes / Scotland days . So , on the advice of the veritable mr O Donovan , I converted my pod crag sac with four of these ( well very similar ):
https://www.amazon.co.uk/d/Sports-Outdoors/Highlander-Quick-Release-Buckle-...
(Sorry for amazon link , I think I got them from Cotswold or needless but could find them on their sites . The advantage of using a bomb proof sack like the pod is that it has stood up to the abuse such temerity heaps on it with ease. I imagine that many a modern racing snake of a pack would be very quickly shredded .
However, as above , all but an easy Scottish winter route with skis straps to the sides , sounds about as much fun as golf.

In reply to Tricadam:

For covering distance quickly, compacted snow such as good névé is much better than powder, although the later can be more fun for the descent. And as said, Scottish skiing often entails following long sinuous bands along burns or next to cornices (with easily imagined dangers) rather than the open slopes of the Alps.

In reply to Tricadam:

The Black Diamond orange elasticated ski straps are good for attaching skis together at the pint of the 'A': http://blackdiamondequipment.com/en_GB/skis/ski-strap-BD1021360000ALL1.html

As someone has already said, you need pretty light skis for steep ice (e.g. grade V) to not feel nails. Also, skiing in a white-out is pretty tricky... That said, ski-mountaineering on a sunny day is awesome, although my experience of this is limited to the alps.

Enjoy!

In reply to Tricadam:

Here's a blog post (not mine!) from someone in Alaska showing how they attach skis to the Patagonia pack you mention.

http://www.skimolife.com/journal/2016/1/25/stuff-i-like-patagonia-ascention...

In reply to Jayhigh:

Thanks Jay, good to see how the diagonal option can be done

In reply to Tricadam:

Diagonal often works better as the top of the skis may be lower and they're less likely to bash off your helmet (oooh matron).

In reply to Tricadam:





It's a pipe dream, go to the Alps if you want to do both together....

In reply to Will_Thomas_Harris:

Second for the BD ski straps (g3 and voile also make them). Essential bit of kit in my touring sack. Firstly for tying skis in A frame, but also useful for all kinds of repairs, making a rescue sled, attaching skis to a bike etc.

I wouldn't want to be climbing anything hard with skis on my back and as mentioned above Scottish conditions are rarely good for both, except instead of powder-ski/neve-climb I'd say now until feb - climb. Snow is almost always wind scoured icy crud or wind loaded avi deathtrap. March until June - ski! Ice has starterd melting, maybe some stable powder around but mainly its corn season. All my best Scottish descents have been on spring snow.

However touring into a climb, leaving skis at base of route and touring back out is a great way to get around!

In reply to Tricadam:

Another point about attaching skis to a pack in an A frame is to do with the way the compression straps are sewn on the pack. If they are quite wide eg they go from the edge seam round onto the front part of the pack, then even with a decent attachment at the top, the whole 'A' can wave & wobble around which is not what you want while climbing. 'A's work when the pack is fairly full but if it isn't then the diagonal is probably better. You can easily rig a diagonal on a sack that doesn't have it built in with a couple of extra straps.
Some sacks work better with the skis just upright - then at least you don't clonk your head on them as you look up.

In reply to Tricadam:

Just climbing with a rucksack is rubbish let alone a rucksack with skis attached!

In reply to Jim 1003:


I'll post photos if it happens

In reply to Tricadam:

Thanks for all the advice folks. I'm going to enjoy experimenting.

In reply to Tricadam:

I've found skis together, and slightly diagonal is best, so as to allow you to look up. Whereas you don't want the weight to move around too much when climbing, you do want to be able to move it around a bit should you get into a bit of a squeeze. I've found the A-frame approach less flexible in that respect. However you carry your skis when climbing, be prepared to untangle an axe from your skis at some point, whilst swinging the axe.

Contrary to some comments, it is possible to do in Scotland. If you set out hoping for the perfect ski and the perfect climb, you're more than likely to be disappointed. If you set out with the attitude of giving it a go, you can have a bit of fun, particularly in the lower grades. Aonach Mor is an obvious choice, but there are other possibilities. One of my best outings was from the Glenshee road onto Carn an Tuirc, descended Y Gully, then climbed back up one of the icefalls and skied back to the car. Yes, could have walked as have done several times, but by including the skiing as well, it added something to the afternoon (i'd bought the ski boots in Braemar over lunchtime before setting out). You just need to pick your day!

In reply to Scomuir:

I don't think we were saying its nots possible (I linked to a photo of such a day on Lochnagar), just that its rare. That said, some of my best memories are of a long weekend when we skied from the Linn of Dee into the Garbh Choire bothy, climbed a couple of routes on Braeriach & then skied out over MacDhui & down Glen Lui to Luibeg (with a long snow ribbon along the edge of the burn low down). Had to walk a bit on the way out as much of the snow at low altitude had melted.

In reply to Doug:

Not you, but my understanding of this phrase " It's a pipe dream, go to the Alps if you want to do both together...." suggests that the poster thinks it's not possible, which is clearly not the case.

In reply to Doug:

Sounds like an amazing trip, Doug. And that you were lucky the Garbh Coire "bothy" wasn't buried! It's definitely somewhere I've thought about skiing into for climbing. Approach from the south would almost guarantee a tail-wind on the way up

In reply to Will_Thomas_Harris:
https://www.freezeproshop.com/search/ski%20strap/filter[type]:ski-straps

Here is a link to ski straps from a uk shop.