UKC

Hi,

Relatively new to leading and looking to widen my logbook. Climbed a bit at Stanage, Birchen and Burbage. Someone recommended Froggatt but looking in the guide it looks like protection is not great on the slabs. How does it compare with other locations for beginners? Would people recommend or get some more routes at other crags under my belt first?

Thank you

Martyn 

There are plenty of easier routes that follow the cracks at Froggatt with lots of good protection. It's better than Burbage North because it's longer mostly, but also its a bit of a different style of climbing because it's quarried gritstone, so it's definitely worth going. Yarncliffe also has some easier routes of a similar style, but it's definitely not as good.

Windgather Rocks is the perfect beginners crag in the Peak. It's not too steep, the holds are all nice and positive, has a great choice of quality low grade routes and it has lots of cracks and breaks to take gear despite what it says in the intro here,

https://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/crags/windgather_rocks-109/

though you may have to look around a bit to find the belays at the top but they are there.

Thanks for the info. Hopefully I'll get there in the next couple of weeks. 

Thanks for the suggestion. I will try and get there later in the summer - it is a bit more of a drive but looks good. 

Harborough Rocks is worth a visit to get some miles in and may be closer. Different rock to anywhere else in the peak, loads of gear, and very short routes, good for getting lots of ticks in and building loads of anchors on good solid rock. 

You wont get more beginner-friendly than Birchen. 

Froggatt has some good Difs with as much gear as you can stuff in them. The bold slabs start at HVS. 

The only issue with Birchen is that many of the routes have starting moves that are hard for the grade which can be a little off putting for beginers, apart from that it is a nice chill little crag to get your grit bearings. However I see the OP has already been there.

I agree, unless you are short! My wife's repeated  phrase of 'I can't get off the ground' still echos from a day or two there many years ago!

If you go to Froggatt have a look at the far end of Curbar, right next door... more choice and quieter.

My views on the best beginner crags for lower grades:

Stanage (almost endless possibilities but midgy in summer and cold in winter)

Wingather (roadside, great holds and pro and the belays can help learning...a bad choice in strong prevailing winds and can be very busy)

Dovestones Edge, Chew (a fair way up, but a lower grade idyll)

Wharncliffe (the best crag in the colder months...in the Peak rainshadow, quick drying, good holds and pro and the rocky ground keeps mud off the shoes.... sweaty on hot summer days). 

I co-wrote the Birchen definitive script. There are a few good routes for beginners but I agree it's generally not an especially good beginner venue.  It's not just the many tricky starts: there is a lot of polish and some lower grade routes have scary moves. It's a great crag for bumblies who know all the tricks and the experienced gritstone soloist.

Stanage is very extensive - there is a lifetimes worth of climbing there alone for the average climber.

On the other hand- the ones with trickier starts can mostly be protected from above (allowing safe false-starts), the rock is soft so the gear placements are obvious as they're so worn-in, it's not very high, it's mostly off-vertical, the descents are easier and more available than any other grit crag I've been to (easy to quickly nip up and help a beginner set up an anchor), the anchors are usually just a big block to chuck a sling around, there's a big concentration of easy routes, and it all feels very friendly. 

We will have to agree to disagree. I've climbed every lower grade route there more times than I can even guess, (certainly of the order of a hundred times). I've used the crag quite a few times in a club with beginners and had problems and witnessed many problems from people I didn't know, including some who said they were fairly experienced (the start of Powder Monkey is an infamous blocker in common with a VD 4b and some of the chimneys are 'entertaining'). We have to grade for skills and Birchen is very unforgiving at times for beginners struggling to handle boulder problem starts, polished rock and bold slab work. Some cam placements are so worn in they really need to be avoided. There are about ten routes I'd recommend from about a hundred named lower grade lines of Severe and below. The descents are good but that's not so different from most good beginners lead crags (apart from the bigger routes on Stanage Popular End).

I see having to think a bit about belays is a good thing.

Ha ha, I did the VD 4b (Holly Bush gully) last week and lost a bit of skin on my elbows wrestling with the jammed boulder.

Thanks for the insights, very helpful. 

Thanks for all the replies. Some really useful advice. Going to try a trip to Froggatt next weekend and see how it goes. Hopefully I won't get freaked by a bold slab with no protection - just need to learn to trust my feet more... 

Trapeze (VD) is really good, and you could even have a look at the direct VS when you're there (you have gear above your head for the single 5a move). The VDif is great fun though, really exciting for the grade. 

Make sure you check for ticks after, as they are about the crag in numbers. 

The Froggatt slab lower grade routes all have gear, albeit care is required on Allen's Slab. On other hazzards: Swimmers Chimney is as slippery as an eel and Sickle Buttress is pretty beefy. Heather Wall is brilliant, with a crack boulder problem start and a delightful cracked slab corner and all well protected. Trapeze is the best on the slabs proper: good pro and pleasant for VD.

Pillar Slab VD 4a*, 100m right of Froggatt on Curbar, is a great place to test smearing (tricky off the ground then OK). Slack Crack, VD* is lovely there as well.

I would say that Windgather is "the perfect beginners crag" if the party is a group of beginners with one or two more experienced climbers. We regularly use it on our club beginners meets with parties like this. Everything you say above is true, and there are good safe opportunities for first leads, but it's good to have someone with a bit more experience around to advise on belay anchors at the top. 

Difficult to say which other gritstone crags are better for the OP's purpose though. Almost all the other main crags have some ideal routes, interspersed with with some that are less than ideal because of poor, or poorly placed, anchors at the top, sandbag grades (especially first moves) and poor protection. The guidebooks have not always been as helpful as they might have been in pointing these out, although things are definitely improving, with thanks to Offwidth and friends. 

Martin

Not 100% sure if you're after good crags for beginner seconds or leaders, which would be quite different, but assuming you mean the latter, a few thoughts as a relatively newer leader myself.

- Agree with Windgather for all the reasons others have said. It can get busy with groups though. 

- I quite like Castle Naze. A couple of nice VDs (Sheltered Crack, Zig-a-Zag-a) and harder stuff as well if you're going with a partner who wants to mix it up. Only problem is very little parking and not much else nearby other than Windgather.

- I share scepticism about Birchen. Both from routes that have horrible polished starts, and/or reachy - three times I've seconded Emma's Dilemma; never got it clean! I'm 5'3" - and false, sloping summits that you can't see from the bottom or in the book (Yoho Crack, backed off leading). It does have lower grade routes but they're not beginner leader amiable imo.

- I would also avoid things like the one row of very short, easy routes at Bamford that turn out to have no belays whatsoever, or the first routes at Burbage - I don't think Burbage cracks are that easy if you're a newer climber! Some of the Burbage Diffs are stiff too (Sentinel Crack big layback that's negligibly protected...). There are ofc a few low grade routes there though.

- I think the Roaches is overrated for beginners personally - too little at VD (mostly the odd Diff or HVD/S) and several listed as hard for the short so no good for me!

- Gamma at Froggatt is lovely and friendly; Trapeze is worlds harder for being the same grade. Heather Wall also nice. I've noticed there are always a lot of boulderers around Gamma, though, so it can be hard to get on.

- The odd route at all of these, ofc, plus Rivelin (tree belays), Wharncliffe.

- To be honest though, I would probably just pick a nice bit of Stanage, as much as that's an unimaginative choice; dependent on your grade, there are a few Mods at Away From It All, some lower grade stuff around Fate and Youth, and plenty of Diffs or VDs elsewhere - eg Anatomy is a friendly VD at Popular; Mississippi Chimney has a hard start then eases, so you get the feeling of having climbed some height.

Good luck. If you're after inspiration for extremely easy, boring, friendly, short routes to start out on, I can share my logbook...

Yeah sorry. I forgot to add the reach factor on some Birchen Routes. As another example the finish of Trafalgar Wall is probably equivalent to what I would experience on a slab HVS for a short climber without big cams. Lynn has made a big difference on how the latest definitive guidebooks treat reachy routes but she is taller than you (albeit with a negative ape index).

Really?

Experienced(-ish) sport climber in the West Midlands here; have been foraying into trad this year, so have been looking for the answers to this same question. My experience so far:

• Windgather: fantastic. Not once did I feel particularly 'at-risk' on any of the leads I tried up to HS. I intend to take some friends who have up until now only climbed indoors, up to Windgather as their first taste of rock. (It's that or Wyndcliff Quarry and I know where I'd rather spend a day...) We eyed up Castle Naze while we were there but ended up going to Harborough instead.
• Birchen: also good, I don't recall any particular reach issues but then I'm 6'1". Having said that, my wife is about 5'6" and I don't recall her struggling either. Probably because I told her they're all 'short person routes'. 😜 YMMV, of course.
• Harborough: is different because it's dolomitic limestone and not grit, and getting used to the comparatively polished nature is a good challenge to your headgame. Once you start to trust your hands and feet you'll be OK, and the gear didn't seem too bad to me. There's also much less 'polished' stuff on the buttresses further right (as you walk in). The big downer on Harborough is the racket the factory makes; it'd be glorious otherwise.
• We also went further up to Almscliffe last week and that was much harder than I thought it was going to be. Ended up bailing on an HS 4b chimney that felt sketchy as f**k to both of us.

My biggest problem with starting to lead in trad was around trusting gear placements; still yet to fall as a leader but I keep yanking my placements and they keep not coming out, so...🤷‍♂️ On that basis, I think if none of those crags mogged me out then you'll probably be OK too. 

Going to add my voice to Windgather as being a great place to start leading in a safe environment. The only problem with Windgather is that whilst its great for starting out, its not got that much in the mid-grades, so you'll hit a progression plateau.

However for a solid foundation and getting used to ropework, gear placement, etc, I've never visited a better crag.

Agreed......Windgather is a great for learning to lead. If you look closely and don't follow the noted routes directly you can also find some harder lines....

OP....parking can be tricky on some days and really problematic to locals (I'm a local) as people block the road and wider cars or farm vehicles cannot pass. Driving further up the road and walking back down is better if it's busy... It's also often very 'windy'.....which can be an issue! 

I rate Castle Naze in a similar way....some good lines but parking can be tricky.

The other place I'd mention as a good time for a low-grade leader like me is Cadshaw Castle Rocks; gorgeous setting, and a bunch of decent routes. Not really Peak, I know, but worth a trip to help build confidence in my opinion. Plus there is Wilton 2 and 3 not far away.

Cadshaw Rocks

Wilton 2

Wilton 3

Wow, loads of really helpful advice. Thanks everyone for your time. Pencilled in windgather for our next trip.