UKC

Hi, 

Took my daughter to her 3rd NICAS session today. Kids are aged 7-10. Just the 1 instructor to 6 kids. I'm relatively new to climbing myself, but noticed that she'd tied her fig. 8 knot incorrectly but the instructor didn't pick up on it. I pointed it out before she started to climb. The instructors response was 'i don't know what happened, it looked OK'  and re-tied. Just wanted some advice on whether to raise this with the wall, or should this be viewed as a one off occurence and matter dealt with. Thanks all. 

As a dad, I'd have been struggling not to thump him. You caught it, so your daughter was safe. But what if his lack of concentration extends to other parts of the lesson..?

Bring it up with the centre management - they need to know if their staff aren't top notch.

j

I'd raise the matter with the wall but more importantly with your daughter, she tied it wrongly. For the rest of her life there will not always be others there to correct her failings.

Thanks to you both for the quick reply. I shall raise it with the wall. 

Or punch her?! Gender of the instructor wasn’t specified.

How incorrect was it - was it just badly dressed, or was it fundamentally wrong? If it was just badly dressed and therefore looked a little wrong but was structurally sound, that's not really an issue.

There is a huge amount of redundancy in a figure of eight anyway, especially if you count a stopper knot as part of it. Not that it is a good idea to only partly tie it.

Three dislikes for pointing out obvious chauvinism?  Well done you three.

The knot itself was threaded wrong. I was about 8-10ft away and although it looked similar to a fig. 8,  the return was blatantly incorrect even from that distance. I've emailed the wall and explained the incident, and asked them to review their staff/student ratios. 

Yes, you should raise it, because will you trust them next time without checking yourself? Obviously your daughter needs to learn how to tie it, but double checking knots is a skill I'd expect a wall instructor to have. What else is there for them to do apart from teaching a bit of technique etc?

Probably is worth raising it to ensure no repeat as it really shouldn't happen, but even a really badly rethreaded fig 8 with stopper will still hold - that's one reason it's a great knot.

A rethreaded fig 8 with a stopper is like belt, braces and a gallon of superglue.  So while there is clearly a procedural issue in it not being noticed (so staff perhaps need reminding to check more actively and teach methods of checking*) she was almost certainly in no danger whatsoever.  By contrast a bowline only has to be slightly wrong before being useless.

* I quite like "counting pairs of ropes" in the knot - 2, 4, 6, 8, 10 and it's right.

I worked at a wall (not as an instructor) for 16 years and one reason I much prefered users to use fig-of-8 knots is that they are really easy to visually check. With experience you don't need to count the loops, badly tied ones just look 'wrong' and can often be picked up (as the op did) from a fair distance away.

Other reason as you say is that unlike a bowline even if tied badly, providing they have a good trail length and stopper knot the chances of it actually failing are incredibly slim. That doesn't in any way excuse mistakes, but certainly helps to prevent them from leading to accidents.

(That said my knot of choice for myself is a bowline.)

Completely agreed - but if you teach the young people systems for checking them, they are more likely to notice an error before the instructor even gets to checking.  Two pairs of eyes better than one, as it were.

I've done this as a demo on the ground at our Scout wall to reassure young people concerned that the knot might untie - taken the fig 8 and rethreaded only one "turn" i.e. in and back down and sat back on it, and it held fine - this shows just how redundant the knot is.  Add a stopper too and it's even more so.

That sounds like an inexperienced instructor, both in terms of the situation that occurred and their response to the issue.

Even at that early stage on NICAS the instructor should have put buddy checks in place, to allow self recognition of that issue, followed by a final check by the instructor. 

I like it when kids make those errors and get to the stage of me checking as it can highlight the importance of buddy checks. (for everyone!)

With 6 kids at that age and stage they should have 3 kid teams (with 3rd kid tailing), so the instructor only needs to supervise 2 ropes. 

I am sure the instructor will learn a lot from the situation and the feedback.

I once got distracted tying my figure of 8 and only poked the end through - just straight, not bent back at all. I top roped a sport route near my limit and lowered off without realising (fortunately!). Testing it afterwards it seems pretty bombproof like that.

I think that would give  me nightmares for the rest of my life.

No, it was kind of interesting, a bit like when a rock whizzes past your head without warning. Nothing really changes and you just get on with it, lesson learned if neecessary.

Just one of the problems with this absurdly complicated and bulky knot. 

I once had a long discussion with a visitor to the wall I worked at about this. Someone alerted me to a climber top roping on an incomplete figure of 8. All he'd done was pass the end through the first bight and cinch the knot tight around it. Under load it slipped until the plastic sealing on the end caught in the knot which held. He was absolutely adamant that this was correct as that's how he'd been taught in the army. Nothing I could do or say would convince him otherwise and he was unable to demonstrate a complete figure of 8. I had no option but to ask him to leave. No doubt he still tells a tale about the jobsworth instructor who kicked him out the wall! 

Yawn.

Yawn as you will, but thanks for confirming my point

Eh? It's a good thing I wasn't using a simpler knot with less redundancy. I'd be dead.

That story doesn't confirm your point unless you believe that someone who couldn't grasp how a figure of 8 works would have been able to do so with a bowline. If as an experienced climber you prefer a bowline then I've got no argument with that, it's personal choice with pros and cons of both it and the other options. However there are really strong, widely accepted reasons why it's not used as the first knot to teach beginners.

It's stronger than a bowline and more versatile. Fig 9's are better but probably are a bit overkill. What do you use out of interest?

That's interesting. Was it a shiny new rope? My old furry one seemed fine! 

I also once tied a figure 8 and just poked the end through without re-threading.

The rope fell off my harness when I was near the top of leading a route. You must have pulled yours pretty tight for it to have held your weight!

Don't encourage him!

If you tie a proper stopper knot there is no chance of failure as it will hold without a F8

Unless you clip into the stopper loop directly, then it definitely will fail...

I presume you're talking about when using it to tow your car, as the strength difference is irrelevant in mountaineering. 

Bowlines in general are far more versatile, especially when it comes to variants like on the bight, can be undone easier after loading too. 

The only advantage a figure 8 has is it's the perfect beginner knot, easier to learn, easier to spot it's wrong, a bad fig8 will likely still hold too.  

No, I'm genuinely interested to know the knot Andy recommends over a fig 8. The relative merits (or otherwise) of various knots seemed to be big source of fascination for cavers in the eighties when SRT was becoming the norm for rigging drops. Fig 8 definitely seemed to be the one that came out on top for most situations in rigging. Tying into a lifeline for ladders though, bowline all the way for convenience and ease since any reduction in weakness wasn't much of a factor in that situation where a shock load is unlikely.

So, except that it's easier to learn, easier to tie, easier to spot when wrongly tied, and still massively strong when incorrectly tied, what has the figure 8 ever done for us? 

It'll be a bowline.  I was thinking it would be nice if this thread didn't morph into yet another figure-8 vs bowline debate, they really have been done to death on here, but not recently come to think of it so perhaps it's just inevitable.

Staff to student ratio of 1 to 6 is pretty standard across a lot of walls. The fault lies with the instructor for not picking up on this.

A NICAS session should actually not be the situation where the instructor is most taxed, kids parties with 1-off participants who are hopped up on sugar and paying zero attention to anything that is said are far more challenging. If the instructor is failing to spot dangerous things in a NICAS session, I would seriously question their ability to supervise a kids party.

Someone said you needed to bring it up with your daughter but I don't really agree with that. If it's the 3rd wall session and the child is 7 to 10 years old, it isn't realistic to expect that they will tie the knot correct every time, check it every time and properly appreciate the consequences of getting it wrong with that combination of inexperience and young age. Although it varies a lot from child to child, I would suggest that 6 or 10 sessions it a more reasonable minimum timespan to expect young children to reach the point of being safe enough to climb without constant, close quarters supervision.

By session 3, I absolutely expect all children to be doing buddy checks. However, I don't expect them to always get them right so before anyone leaves the ground they have to show me, and talk me through, their buddy check. Every time. So should he teach his daughter the importance of buddy checks? Absolutely! (Though I would say the instructor should be teaching it really). Should the instructor ensure participants are safe before leaving the ground? Absolutely!

For beginners. For the experienced a bowline should be quicker, and is certainly more versatile. 

If you tie your stopper knot correctly that's impossible, or at least extremely difficult to do

Splitter!

Slightly more seriously: it's an interesting question as which is easier.  I still have to think and watch myself as I tie a bowline, whereas I can quite literally tie an 8 in gloves whilst blindfolded.  But is this just because I tie a fig-8 around 95% of the time? 

Incidentally I agree with others who are saying that this is a should never occur class of incident - whilst it's excellent practice to start teaching children buddy checks, they could never be regarded as enough by themself.  The instructor has made a massive mistake in not checking each knot every time (or checking but not spotting the error).  It's nothing to do with the ratio, just a mistake that should not ever happen.  The instructor needs a very sharp reminder of this.

Agreed but mistakes can and do happen.  The instructor is a human being just like the rest of us. and we all make mistakes.  Yes we do all we can to minimise them, like buddy checks and using a knot with shedloads of redundancy, but mistakes will always happen.

If Lyn Hill can make a mistake tying her own knot after all...

Most likely, I definitely used to be able to tie a bowline behind my back in a matter of seconds back when I was doing a lot of sailing... 

Allegedly.  The problem with forums is that we often come to quite damming conclusions based on one side of a story.

I use this in my own teaching all the time: if Lynn Hill can screw this up, then so can I and so can you!

Graham, - yes, we're taking the OP at face value, but if the instructor has indeed agreed that it was wrong, re-tied it, and said that they 'thought it looked OK' then that's fairly clear cut, no?

I am not advocating sacking them (!) but it's a fairly significant worry.  I guess my reaction, had I been the OP, would have depended on their response.  If they'd been mortified and made lots of 'that will never happen again' noises I'd have agreed that we're all human and left it there.  If they seemed at all cavalier about it then a word with their manager would be in order.

Guy in my club did that at a (thankfully short) local wall.

He did the first half of the knot, but didn't go back through - got distracted by someone talking to him.

Got to the top, let go to be lowered, and .... crash.

He was damn lucky to hobble away, badly bruised and severely chastened and shook up, but otherwise OK.

I always start a knot again from scratch if interrupted - safest way I can think of to not have that happen.

I disagree with this approach. "mistakes do happen" is a way of excusing something that is inexcusable. If a car battery short circuits, catches fire and burns the person inside the car alive, the engineer who designed it isn't going to be able to "mistakes happen" their way out of it (or aught not to). In a professional situation there are certain minimum requirements which MUST be met and checking children's knots is one of them.

Lyn Hill was not, at that time, being employed as a professional instructor. She was climbing for herself. The situation is completely different and not worth drawing parallels with.

Didn’t say mistakes are ok. Just that they are going to happen and we must mitigate against them using things like buddy checks and redundant knots.

If pilots, ships captains, surgeons and police make mistakes, I’m not sure that your assertion that climbing instructors will not is realistic.

Yes, I remember having a good look at it to work out what had happened and it was pretty new. I'd actually caught him about 3m off the deck and asked him to climb down rather than lower off but he disregarded that and sat back in his harness so I actually saw it slip through and catch on the plastic.

 I also wonder if the direction you thread it through the harness might make a difference? i.e. leg loops first or waistbelt first. Intuitively I'd say the former might be more likely to cinch up and grip but I'm not really sure. Something of an academic point anyway!

I agree with pretty much everything here. My point wasn't that a child should not be taught to do buddy checks, I would assume that they were taught and were doing them.

I took the original implication to be that a more serious chat with the daughter was called for for what had happened, which is what I was disagreeing with because although the daughter made a mistake, it is perfectly normal for a child in her position to make that mistake and the fault lies with the instructor, not the child.

Hmm, fair point. I might amend my point to take into account how basic a mistake is. Some things are so basic that mistakes should not be made with them, the checking of childrens knots being one for a climbing instructor and maybe the checking of which leg is to be amputated for a surgeon and maybe checking there is enough fuel to make the flight for a pilot. Getting it wrong with things this basic is nigh-on inexcusable in my book (though perhaps I'm just intolerant).

How much time do you think you've saved by using a bowline rather than a fig8? Preferably your answer should be in extra number of pitches climbed.

They are pretty weighty advantages.

Another advantage is that in needs checked less often (not really at all in my experience although one still tends to keep an eye on things) over the course of a long multi-pitch day. A friend who always uses a bowline has to check and re-tie the stopper at least quite regularly over a long day. Not necessarily a problem but something else think about.

A further advantage is that fig 8s work better on stiff, slick ropes. The same friend decided to use a fig 8 on my new iceline during our recent trip as the bowline came undone very quickly.

I'd politely suggest their stopper knot isn't neat or butting against the bowline, a tidy knot is a happy knot!

Only if you're a beginner.

So it doesn't need checked, but you do anyway.  Bit like a bowline then.

So a bit like a figure of eight then (by your own admission). 

Sounds like your friend isn't very good with knots.  Never experienced any of these problems myself.  

Anyway - bored with the topic now.  As you yourself so succinctly put it - yawn.

I think the 'it looked OK' is the thing that bothers me most here.

Will a child make a mistake? Yes - if you had 100 kids tying in, then you'd expect a few errors for beginners of that age.

So this is certain to happen. The consequences would be dire when they lowered off.

To mitigate the risk, you have an experienced checker. They should check every knot every time as the likelihood of an error is very high. Should once experienced adult be enough? - yes - if they do their job and know what the knot should look like.

So either they didn't check properly - or did check and doesn't know what a correctly tied figure of 8 is. This means they didn't do their job properly and they should have been pretty shocked. I'm sure they do know what a figure of 8 looks like, so brushing this off compounds the error. They made a mistake and then a second to cover up their first. That would make me very unhappy as it shows an unprofessional attitude. We all make mistakes - but the way to avoid them is to first admit them

​​​​​​I could present credentials but that usually comes across as willy waving and whilst I'm happy to wave my own I'm not so keen on waving my friend's.  

Yes, I too will quit, not so much due to boredom but because I simply can't match your patriotic fervour for the bowline. Both knots work, both have advantages and disadvantages and once a climber is knowledgeable enough to judge it's simply a matter of personal preference.

So bowline just for experts then?

I think the issue is not about the staffing ratios, but about how the wall management assure themselves that their staff are doing the job they are engaged to do - in other words, how do they induct, supervise, monitor, re-train and support their staff?  I'd be looking to see what their "safety culture" is like rather than hanging an individual out to dry....   The wall management rather than a customer should be spotting this sort of thing.....