UKC

My son plays football. He is football mad. I have always played football myself until I wore my body (Knees) out. When I finished playing I moved onto coaching. I got FA Level 1 & 2 badges, 1st aid etc and coached for free for 7yrs until again my body couldn't cope. It costs me about £100 PER SEASON to cover (For my son)

1 x weekly match including pitch & referee costs
1 x training session either outside in summer and inside through the winter

So that's my son taken care of........

My daughter climbs and as I am not a climber I have to build in some coaching costs. This is where I feel that climbing is a middle class sport/activity.

Local climbing wall membership - £300
Local climbing wall team training £4 x 25 = £100
Local climbing wall training session £10 x 12 = £120
Local roped wall (Including dad having to pay to belay) £11 x 35 = £385
Total - £905

Thankfully the local bouldering wall don't charge me to 'watch' my daughter climb so that isnt exaggerated like the roped wall do. The above costs basically get my daughter 2 x sessions per week (1 boulder & 1 roped) on a regular basis plus a team training every other week. It doesn't even include the chance of me having some fun with her and climbing myself. I haven't included the other coaching opportunities she has taken with the BMC which add a bit more.

I cant imagine if both my kids were into climbing..........

I don't begrudge the cost (Much), its a great activity. But add this to the swimming costs, the gymnastics costs and anything else they want to try and suddenly parents are making decisions about their kids 'sporting' acitivities based on finances. We have a good income in our family and don't struggle but when you measure activities in the thousands it starts to become a burden.

If a single mum living on benefits had a 6yr old son who had the basic tools to become the next Adam Ondra, do you think he would achieve it in this country?

In reply to Thelittlesthobo:

As a parent you surely make all, or most, decisions about your kids' activities based on finances. The richer you are the more ballet/piano/gymnastics/skiing/archeology club/theatre trips/summer school/horse riding/etc etc etc you can do. Some things are cheap - evidently football. Some things are expensive - for example go-cart racing or horse riding. That's life.

In reply to ChrisBrooke:
And there are other cheaper options for climbing - for instance if you're in Buckinghamshire you could go along to the volunteer-run County Scout Climbing club, which is far cheaper than the above because it isn't run for a profit and the staff aren't paid.

(Actually, Scouting in general is a good cheap way of getting into quite a range of activities)

In reply to ChrisBrooke:

Fair enough Chris. So at what point do you question these costs? When you cant afford them. When the sport starts to die out because no one can afford it. When only old people do it because you never invested your time in bringing kids into the sport.

In reply to Neil Williams:

Hi Neil,

Do you know, that's the first time I have heard mention of anything 'volunteer run' with regards to kids and climbing. That's kinda my point to this thread. If I was a single mum with a kid interested in climbing I would be actively steering them away from the sport as I wouldn't know how to afford it.

With football I would have many many choices and hundreds of local volunteers helping get my kid involved.

In reply to ChrisBrooke:

Be handy if you guys also answered the main question. Do you guys think climbing to be a middle class sport?

In reply to Thelittlesthobo:

No, I know many climbers who are decidedly not "middle class". Climbing is for everyone.

In reply to ChrisBrooke:

I've liked your post and thanks for the reply. But do you honestly believe it is for everyone. Can you really see anyone who wants to do it being able to afford to do it

In reply to Thelittlesthobo:
I guess it probably is a middle class sport these days.

It once had quite a strong working class following as in the days before indoor walls were king it was just a matter of you and some mates going to the nearest bit of climbable rock and seeing what you can climb so there wasn't much cost, just some basic gear.

These days, most people seem to get into climbing either as kids with middle class parents who'll take them to the wall twice a week or students who get into it via their university clubs so it has gotten a little more middle class dominated.

That said though, for those luckily enough to live no more than a bus journey to some rock, it can still be a reasonably cheap sport.

The problem in your case in that you not being a climber yourself, you're going to encounter costs for coaching and instruction that most people wouldn't need to pay.

In reply to Thelittlesthobo:

The thing about climbing is that people from all backgrounds have historically got into it by joining a local (adult) club or by going out with a more experienced mate, often when they're in their late teens or early twenties. And a lot of people (myself included) give up a fair amount of time to getting beginners involved in the sport and teaching them the basics through those routes.

On the other hand, relatively few people who are climbing now will have got into the sport as kids through an organized group, and hence don't see volunteer-run organized groups for kids as being something that the sport needs. "Coaching" and "team training" in particular are things that quite a lot of experienced climbers would consider at best unnecessary and at worst actively counterproductive to the individualistic ethos that appeals to them in climbing.

In reply to Thelittlesthobo:


Depends where they live and who their friends are surely, as far as I know all of the UKs best climbers at the time when they were some of the best in the world just went climbing all the time and didn't have any formal coaching whatsoever.

In reply to Neil Williams:

And if you limited it to an annual bouldering wall membership, ditched the coaching etc, you'd save.....most of it.

To the OP. I know you're not complaining for yourself, and more observing the costs on behalf of more impecunious parents, but the differences are pretty obvious when comparing the infrastructural needs (both in facilities and staffing) of football and climbing. Good for you for stumping up. I know when my daughter is old enough I will sacrifice whatever it takes to give her all the piano lessons, climbing team memberships, chess club subscriptions etc etc that she wants. I just hope she's not into horses, like my wife

I shudder to think what my parents must have spent on music lessons for me, but it was what I was into. The fact that music became my career, is in a way, incidental. When considering as a parent how you invest in your child's interests and activities, if you're fortunate enough to be able to give them lots of opportunities to explore their interests and develop skills, friendships, 'character' etc, you're surely doing the best you can. And yes, for those that can't afford all of those things, we'll never know if we've missed out on the next Mozart/Ondra/Schumacher

In reply to Thelittlesthobo:

Climbing outdoors is free so even cheaper than the football

In reply to Thelittlesthobo:

Indoor sport climbing is middle class without a doubt.

Outdoor is mainly working class with a large proportion of middle class. Possibly an even split.

Just read the politics threads here to get a feeling of the anti-conservatism that abounds.

In reply to Lord_ash2000:

That's the post I was waiting for. That's exactly what I was thinking and its the part I feel effects it the most.

Unless a kid is born into a climbing family or the parent has access to a climbing community then they are fighting a losing battle. Eventually I presume (If she wants to) my daughter will make use of the lake district on our doorstep. Of course its free to use but it also requires learning and others to take part.

I see threads on here of climbers looking down their noses at indoor climbing as if its the junk food of climbing. Do these people appreciate that for some its the only way they can get into climbing.

In reply to Thelittlesthobo:

Anyway, to answer your actual question.....

To an extent, yes. But as someone observed above, kids getting into climbing as an alternative to football or other more common activities, is rather a recent thing and reflects the increasing affluence of not just the 'middle class' but people generally. Now instead of little Jimmy going down the park to play football his parents direct him to more expensive luxury pursuits such as climbing, and then bemoan the cost. This is tied in with the growth of climbing walls around the country. They didn't exist in the sorts of numbers they do now when I was a child, and were mostly pretty rubbish back then anyway. Now, they're everywhere, they're bright, fun places that provide children's parties! They're a business! Climbing is in no danger of dying out as an activity - it's an absolute boom industry.

In reply to Thelittlesthobo:

You seem to have quite an odd definition of middle class. You do know it's got very little to do with wages and disposable income right?

In reply to Thelittlesthobo:

Class isn't just about how much you earn.

Your daughter is engaged in a relatively new/ niche part of climbing (the organised, instructed, indoor type), whereas your son is engaged in a very traditional/ well-established team game. I imagine if your son was shipped of to football camps in Spain and your daughter just liked to doss around on some local boulders with mates, then the costs would swing the other way?

I don't disagree that regular indoor climbing is expensive, and that may mean you have to earn more money to facilitate it, which might mean the participants tend towards the middle class end of the spectrum, but climbing as a whole certainly isn't a middle class sport.

In reply to Thelittlesthobo:


To be fair, you have concentrated on it being a relatively expensive sport rather than middle class one.

When I go and pick my step-daughter up from the climbing wall, the car park is full of Ranger Rovers and Mercs, funnily enough I see the same cars at various local kids football clubs.

Is climbing middle class, historically it always was, the working class lads started to make waves after the war, but the question is would you consider a plumber possibly earning more than a GP working class or middle class.

In reply to Thelittlesthobo:


No. You get climbers of all incomes and origins. Plenty of stories of penniless climbers still making it to the very top of the sport. Climbing walls are actually pretty cheap compared to other indoor sporting facilities and I bet for most of us an evening at a climbing wall will be cheaper than an evening at a pub (not that they are mutually exclusive). And of course real climbing - outdoors - is free.

In reply to DancingOnRock:


What has that got to do with class?

In reply to Thelittlesthobo:

If your daughter sticks with it and maybe you learn more about climbing, or even get into it yourself (go on, you know you want to...) you may experience the climbing 'lifestyle'. There can be a lot more to it than pulling on plastic, which can lead to a snobbish view of climbing walls. I don't hold those views as I enjoy training indoors, but for me nothing beats the experience of climbing outdoors. Each to their own - try not to get put off or disheartened by negative attitudes to indoor climbing.


edit: to expand on the 'lifestyle' comment.

Going away to the mountains, getting up early, climbing a challenging route in difficult conditions, getting back to the car exhausted, dehydrated, scared out of your mind and elated, going to the pub for a couple of beers before cooking dinner on a portable stove before collapsing into a sleeping bag, to get up and do the same again the next day, to drive home and go to work on Monday morning exhausted but psyched out of your mind.

Or: abseiling in to a terrifying sea-cliff, climbing a route in the sun with your best mate, soaking up the exposure with waves crashing below you, walking out for tea and cake before fish and chips and home.

Or: spending years dreaming of a hard route, getting to the point where mentally and physically you feel ready to go for it. Seeing the perfect forecast coincide with a day you can get out. Getting to the crag, feeling the nerves, making sure your gear is perfect on your harness, making sure you've warmed up and have enough food in you, committing and giving it everything you have, scraping your way to the top, just making it, sitting on the edge as you bring up your second feeling like the king of the world.

Those are some reasons why climbing is great, is so much more than pulling on plastic down the wall, which can lead to a snobbish attitude about it. BUT not everyone wants to play those games, and in the case of young children, probably can't play those games just yet!

In reply to Ramblin dave:

So what you are saying in a roundabout way dave is that climbing likes to restrict the numbers involved by being a bit of a closed club. Ignoring the coaching and training (You called it going out with an experienced mate) then what you are saying is that unless you have a mate who is experienced or plenty of money its pretty much tough titty. I think that's a shame.

In reply to Thelittlesthobo:

To be honest, and I'm not being funny here or challenging you, I don't know what the term "middle class" means [maybe I'm just thick though]. What does it mean? I certainly don't see factory workers or minimum-wage workers or wealthy bankers as being in any "class", so I don't get it....

In reply to @ndyM@rsh@ll:

I think you missed the point. The ability to just go climbing relies on either having the money to pay for it or the friends with experience to allow you to. Coaching & Training are just the turn of phrase for a kid climbing with someone with experience.

In reply to Thelittlesthobo:

How is that even remotely what I'm saying?

In reply to Thelittlesthobo:


Really? 45 years ago, I hitched to the mountains every Saturday morning. So did hundreds of us. Most of us were dirt poor. I remember hitching from Yorkshire up to the Lakes with a mate. He had all of £1. The second day we did what we thought was the hardest route in the Lakes (it wasn't!) No supportive parents, no coaching, no wall membership - in fact, f*ck all.

Mick

In reply to ChrisBrooke:

Chris, a kid cant climb without someone to watch or help. As I have said in other posts, compare it in effect to climbing with a friend. If a kid doesn't have access to a friend who climbs then his parent pays for a lesson. So no, really just paying for membership for a kid doesn't allow you to get rid of the lessons because the kid can climb on their own.

I like your other comments. My daughter has tried the horse riding (Arrgh), the music, the ballet and just about everything else. I am one of 3 brothers and I am truly thankfull for my parents input into my football. I just find it a shame that a sport closes its doors a little when it comes to kids

In reply to Thelittlesthobo:

I would also add that it costs us about half what you pay for my stepdaughter to have a 90 minute lesson a week including leading, plus use of the bouldering facilities whenever she wants.

I am climber, but whilst I have taken her climbing outdoors a few times, I leave her to learn herself or be instructed by others indoors.

In reply to Thelittlesthobo:

Just like to say if people are getting hung up on the term middle class or expensive then substitute whatever phrase or word which does sit better for you. I am not really interested in determining anyones version of middle class.

In reply to The New NickB:


Because those threads are continually bashing the rich who are apparently looking down at the working classes.

In reply to Thelittlesthobo:

No it isn't, get climbers from all backgrounds.

In reply to Thelittlesthobo:
Yes. They can. Kids can go bouldering on their own out in the countryside. It's the parent who decides what is safe and what isn't.

Should kids be multi pitch climbing or even top roping regularly or should they just be practicing actual climbing.

Lots of us spent years never getting more than 2ft off the ground or soloing Mods.

In reply to Thelittlesthobo:


I might not have read the thread properly, but is there a reason that you can't learn to belay safely and then look after your daughter yourself? Indoor belaying isn't rocket science, you can probably find someone on here or through a local club to teach you enough to be safe over a couple of evenings.

In reply to Mick Ward:

Have you even read the context of the example I have given?

Would you really see a parent with zero experience of climbing, packing her kids coat and trainers in a bag, hitching it to the lakes and then having a climb. Its got no relevance to this discussion at all. If I was asking in context of a 17yr old lad trying to get into climbing I would wholeheartedly agree (To a point). However to give your own experience in that context has no relevance at all.

In reply to DancingOnRock:


Really! Starting threads about the injustices of unequal society is about as middle class as you can get!

In reply to Ramblin dave:

Hi Dave,

Yep that's exactly what I did. I learned how to belay and get her onto walls. I then have to pay for her to climb and me to belay. I included that cost at £11 x 35 which would be more if it wasn't for the fact I don't believe I should have to pay to belay and not climb

In reply to Thelittlesthobo:

You're comparing football with climbing again, two very different things. Friend of mine had a son at a big league club youth team, spent a fortune on petrol (and lost wages) driving round yorkshire five times a week for matches. He was gutted when his son gave it up at 14 as that was his pension plan out the window.

As for the cost, isn't that £4 team session run by (if not directly, under the guidance of) Dan Varian?

The guy instrumental in helping a youth become European Champion?

If so, £4 is stupid cheap for climbing's equivalent of Wayne Rooney (not suggesting he does grannies, just the level of expertise).

But you've only scratched the surface so far, the first time you buy her a pair of £100 shoes, there's no going back, even if she goes through a pair every 3 months.

Better yet, if she competes at national level you'll have an afternoon/day off work, so you can drive a 600 mile round trip to London, night in a hotel, so you can register at 0830 hours, then she'll get to climb just 2 routes, 5 minutes climbing or less because she slips off a greasy hold low down, then you drive 6 hours back up the crowded M6, with a bawling, inconsolable 11 year old in the back, whole thing's cost over £300, home by 10pm, only to find a note from your missus saying there is pizza in the freezer and she's gone to the pub with your recently divorced 'best mate' John because they've got talking and it turns out he 'really understands me'.

Then you tuck the little princess in, telling her she'll do better next time when you'll do it all again in 2 months time. Grab a beer and kickback in front of Match of the Day but you can't watch because you've got one eye on the front door wondering why your missus isn't back and it's gone midnight.

But chin up, when's she's 15, going out on the town with a 19 year old local football hero, wearing a skirt you can barely see, you'll long for those days.

In reply to DancingOnRock:

It is possible to not ne working class and not be a tw*t.

Edit: Realised that I spelt Tory wrong.

In reply to Thelittlesthobo:

When I was in school 30+ years ago, a group of us used to head off into the hills and climb with a small amount of kit. Climbing walls were about, but were very limited in what they could offer, the nearest one was 15 miles away, and you had to pay to use it. Sometimes we would disappear all weekend with borrowed tents and camp where we wanted to climb (it's now called wild camping).

Times have changed and I can't imagine any parent these days being happy with an unsupervised group of 12 year olds heading off to the Beacons or N Wales for days on end. (At 14, I organised a 2 week trip up to Glencoe - again unsupervised and before mobile phones were invented - none of us could be bothered to phone home anyway).

In order to satisfy the modern need of knowing exactly where a child is at any given moment, and knowing that they're safe - a climbing wall offers the best package. This costs money.

Is climbing a middle-class sport? If you climbed as I did as a kid, then no. If you want all the safety aspects that we didn't have - then possibly.

In reply to Thelittlesthobo:


Fair enough. But climbing is a potentially fatal sport - you'll have seen and signed off on the BMC participation statement no doubt - and requires a high level of supervision for children. That's just the nature of it. It's a bit like complaining about the prohibitive costs of owning a horse making dressage an exclusive sport.

In reply to Thelittlesthobo:

Please, the term middle class shouldn't have been used. I have absolutely no interest in what class people are. All I am interested in is people thoughts on kids access to climbing. Maybe my methods are too hamfisted

In reply to ianstevens:



Yes. But if you're middle class, it'd be somewhat strange to be moaning about rich middle class people.

In reply to ChrisBrooke:

Walking to the park and playing on the slide is potentially fatal. You don't have to sign up to the councils 'Slide policy'.

If climbing indoors is too expensive get outside and boulder.

In reply to The New NickB:


Ah sorry. Yes you're exactly right. I think ianstevens has just backed up your theory there.

In reply to DancingOnRock:

Would you describe Jeremy Corben or for that matter Tony Benn, the former 2nd Viscount Stansgate, as working class?

In reply to Mick Ward:



I was going to post similar Mick, as it's the perfect thread for old farts to reenact Pythons Yorkshireman sketch

But in reality I think most of us in those days had f*ck all.

Hitched everywhere, UK, Alps, Yosemite - anyone remember the Laker Airlines £50 return to NYC followed by a 3 day hitch to the valley? And when we got cars they were £200 unreliable heaps of junk that often had to be abandoned.

Regularly potless on weekends in the Peak, Wales, Lakes & Scotland etc. Dossing where you could. Doing a full season in the Alps on less than £150 - bolstered by the odd bit of pilfering in Cham.

EB's and other items of clothing held together with gaffa tape, gear often courtesy of a wee discount from Uncle Brian Cropper or crag swag.

I certainly can't remember anything middle class about any of it?

However, the rumours that a select few made a few extra quid bare knuckle fighting on a Thursday night in Salford are just urban myth...honest?

In reply to winhill:

winhill, please don't take this as an attack on the facilities my daughter gets. I am most appreciative of them. TBH I would rather not discuss specifics of her training as that's not fair. This thread could be about Glasgow, London or wherever. Its is a persons take on how youngsters are able/unable to get into a sport.

To address some of your points

Dan has zero input into my daughters climbing lesson so that has no bearing on the cost which is actually £10 if I hadn't paid for the annual membership

I am well aware of his input into Aidens climbing over the last couple of years. Imagine if he had gotten hold of him 7yrs earlier

My son buys £200 football boots. As per both my kids they get an allowance towards their shoes of £50 and if they want better they pay for it themselves. Whats your point?

In the past few mths I have driven to the leeds/Harrogate/sheffiled/Huddersfield/ratho walls to either take part in training or Competitions. She has came second in the Scottish champs, Leeds boulder cup and The Fall. In all of them she has matched the climb of the winner but either not done it quick enough or took more goes to get it. We are really enjoying the competition side of things. No bawling, no resentment of the cost just plain fun because the learning experience of competing is another factor we are both enjoying. Winning will come if she continues to enjoy her climbing.

In reply to Goucho:


If that was the case you knew the wrong people, there was always a bit of gear to be had in the Peak.

In reply to winhill:


PMSL

In reply to The New NickB:


I don't know who they are but I'd suspect they'd be part of the establishment. So in a class of their own.

In reply to Thelittlesthobo:
I think the issue is here you are thinking of climbing as something quite different to what many of us think of as climbing. I went indoor bouldering for the first time in months and months last night. It did cost 7 quid which seems quite a lot, but it's the first time I've paid to climb in maybe 6 months despite having done hundreds of routes and having spent dozens of hours climbing in that time.

I totally accept that you don't want young or youngish kids going off doing something potentially very dangerous on their own, so for kids to get into climbing if their parents don't take them, climbing walls are clearly the obvious route, but that of course comes with a cost as do all sports that need some sort of special infrastructure - and in this case commercially provided infrastructure. I think traditionally a lot of people didn't really start 'proper' climbing until mid to late teens when you get a chance through maybe scouts or school activity trips, that's how I did my first roped climbing. I picked a university as much as on it being close to the mountains as anything else because by that time I was desperate to be regularly climbing. For me climbing has always been a big in part about being in the outdoors and going to nice places, so until I was old enough to start organising to go climbing myself, I just made do with hiking and camping (I did my first trip away hiking with just mates when I was at the end of Year 9). That cost me (or my parents very little), whilst on the other hand I never got to go on a school ski trip due to cost despite that I knew I would love to ski (this turned out to be the case when I started being able to go skiing on my own).

None of this is very helpful in your case now, but not so long ago that was sort of the normal path for starting climbing and I think its the context for why there isn't a widespread cheap infrastructure available for getting kids climbing now on walls.

In reply to DancingOnRock:


Why? I thought petty jealousy and class envy was the hallmark of the British middle class, particularly amongst those like myself with high levels of cultural capital while at the same time earning not much!

In reply to TobyA:
Agree with all of that TobyA


Except the ramblings about class in the next post

In reply to TobyA:


Indeed. Nick has just made that point quite well.

In reply to Thelittlesthobo:


I was joking hence the winky! But I am a new teacher and I believe part of the identity of being a teacher is that we need to moan all the time about how hard done by we are - although it's all true!

In reply to Thelittlesthobo:



I think you're right though. These are the type of behaviours that we see as middle class. They're the "ferrying Johnny around in the 4x4" type activities that go to make up great long posts. Even football has now become middle class. Look at ticket prices for games. We even had a thread here about rugby being for posh people.

Class in the UK has changed. Hardly anyone 'works' in the sense of hard labour now. The new working class earn more than the average wage and the Middle class drive round in Porsches and Audis.

In reply to DancingOnRock:


That's a huge generalisation about the Middle Class, you know.

In reply to Thelittlesthobo:


A relative has often quoted a saying along the lines of 'To be a climber you either need to be well off or very single minded with your spending'

If you want to afford to climb and do a few other things as well, probably yes, but if climbing is the main thing you spend money on, hopefully not, or a lot of people won't be able to access it.

In reply to Timmd:


Of course it is.

In reply to Thelittlesthobo:
The 'climbing' that you describe is set up to generate money/jobs for the providers of the services that you are using - the walls, coaching, teams, etc.
If people are daft enough to pay the prices then that is what the 'going rate' is.
You don't have to pay it unless this is the climbing scene that you want your daughter to be part of ( or that she wants to belong to).
For many people climbing is the complete opposite of what you describe and climbing was around long before climbing walls, coaching and competitions -although these did exist in informal ways.
The indoor/ competition climbing scene might be a middle class activity but proper climbing isn't.

Pmc

In reply to DancingOnRock:

Ahh dancingonrock, you have hit on another little nugget I have a bee in my bonnet about......

Football has indeed become 'use whatever phrase you want'. I have commented this to other coaches, parents and FA members. Gone are the days of kicking the ball around open grass areas. Gone are jumpers for goal posts. Gone are hours and hours of playing footy with your mates.

Now we have
3G football pitches which are either funded by FA grants or school/council facilities which have to earn X amount to cover their costs so basically sell their souls to the 6 a side leagues for middle aged blokes wanting to get sweaty once per week

Parents who think little johnny wont be able to plays as well if he is not in a matching training kit, using the latest PL footballs, dribbling in and out of expensive cones, manakins, poles etc which are supplied by the football industry.

Parents who deem driving their kid 2mls in the car to a training facility and then watching them warm up for 10mins with the team. Let them play for an hour, then put them back in the car to drive 2mls home.

Parents who deem football training to be cheap childcare and bugger off and do their own thing when their kid is training.

Even worse parents who deem that its acceptable to stand around the indoor football pitch getting in the way whilst little johnny is trying to impress them.

There isn't enough chav in football these days but at least I am pretty confident that a kid has more chance of succeeding in football if they have a natural ability than a kid in climbing

In reply to baron:

Fair point baron. But what if you are young (As in too young to go off without guidance) and want to do 'proper climbing'. How is this accessable to people who don't have climbing friends or family?

In reply to TobyA:

Ha ha, a sis in law who has lived in Norway during her studies and travelled a fair bit, and works as a therapist in the NHS, was being critical of some very large houses in Germany being 'over the top' when she visited with my brother.

You might be (cynically) spot on.

In reply to Thelittlesthobo:

Pay 90 quid for a bouldering matt then you can take her climbing for free whenever you want.....



as long as you live near some rocks...

One person belaying the only climber potentially takes up as much wall use as two climbers alternating. Walls have to behave commercially.

In reply to Thelittlesthobo:

How do you define 'middle-class' in this day and age?

If you're saying that 'poor people can't afford to climb', which your list of costs tends to suggest, then I'd say the facts are against you. There are people on benefits and impoverished uni students amongst my own climbing partners and I've seen plenty of others like them at crags.

If you're talking about people who don't subscribe to middle-class morality or nice manners, then check out places like Cheltenham Race Course. You'll find plenty of people there spending money at a rate that most climbers I know would find eye-watering, who look as if they'd just been dragged out of some Birmingham inner-city boozer (as some of them undoubtedly will have been).

In reply to Thelittlesthobo:

For us old farts climbing has evolved beyond recognition to what it was once like and it is far less "middle classed" now than it used to be. In the context of your post the things that have had the biggest impact are:

1. The education "establishment got their hands on it.
2. Gear. More of it and it is much more expensive. It is now very commercial and competitive.
3. Kids didn't climb. Most people started in their mid to late teens and I would suspect the majority were introduced to it when they went to University.
4. Climbing walls or as I prefer to call them climbing gyms are not typical of the "climbing scene" so you are getting a biased, atypical view of what climbing is about.


Al

In reply to TobyA:


How true.

I've had middle class folk look down their nose at me even though I could buy and sell them 10 times over - and I read the Times and the Independant too

In reply to ralphio:

Thanks for the reply. So a single mother who has the next Ashima as her daughter. Cant stop her daughter climbing anything and everything. That parent is going to buy a bouldering mat, take her daughter to the lakes and get her on the rock?

Or is she going to just keep moaning about her daughter climbing everything and let her carry on with the schools gymnastic club?

In reply to Thelittlesthobo:



You'll have to ask her.

In reply to Thelittlesthobo:

It's certainly feels middle class that you feel you have to pay for coaching sessions. Sounds like pushy parent syndrome to me. Drop the coaching she doesn't need it.

In reply to Thelittlesthobo:

I think that maybe your daughter's experience of climbing is not typical of how most people take part in climbing. You mention that she came 2nd in some competitions and is no doubt capable of winning. That's fantastic for your daughter (and for you) but most people who enjoy climbing are not that serious and just want to have a mess about with their friends. You chose to spend money on regular wall visits, coaching, club memberships, travelling to comps, etc. And for your daughter that has clearly paid off in her comp results.

My point is that it is possible to take part in climbing without the expense you are going to and I don't think that climbing has a particular class. One thing I like about the atmosphere among climbers is that you could have a part time cleaner teaming up with a CEO and acting as equals, it really is a class-less sport.

In reply to Pedro50:

Yep I totally agree with your statement. Walls have to behave commercially.

The commercial view is to get as many kids on that wall as possible because a future generation of kids brought up on climbing walls will suddenly become a generation of parents introducing their kids into the sport.

Also, for the entire summer whilst the weather was good the 'real' climbers didn't spend much time on the indoor wall. They had all their outdoor climbing to enjoy. We had the wall pretty much to ourselves for hours and hours. Who has paid more into the commercial activity?

In reply to Thelittlesthobo:


It would be good to understand why you believe climbing should be accessible to all ? Where do we as a society draw the line in terms of making certain aspects of recreational activities accessible to all (I guess you mean government funding for climbing ?) Just because your daughter for example loves climbing, they are no more deserving than for example my daughter who loves ballet etc. etc.

At the end of the day, climbing has the potential to be a dangerous activity, climbing walls make significant investments and have significant costs, so if you want children to use the facilities safely you ultimately have to pay (you can't expect employees of walls to work for free - they probably only get paid little more than the minimum wage anyway).
Without trying to be too direct/rude if you made some effort and research you could get to know and make friends who are into climbing - its like anything in life, you get out of it what you put into it. As a parent, and you want your child to benefit, I'm afraid you have to sacrifice something whether it is time (learn/experience climbing, join a club, form a club for deprived children who want to experience 'proper' climbing) or money for your child to enjoy certain activities.

In reply to Thelittlesthobo:
I may have missed this information while reading this thread but how old is your daughter?
As in is she 18 and therefore actually a young adult and able to make her own mind up or 4 and definitely not an adult.

Pmc

In reply to Orgsm:

You would think so wouldn't you. I am pushy parent in that I want my kid and any kid to enjoy ANY SPORT. I am going to be paying for a lot more coaching in future but its not because I am being pushy.

TBH its the exact opposite. As I don't climb I end up watching everything so she doesn't enjoy the climbing as much with me. I try to help but I cant. Put her with a good coach (Of which I cant fault her coaching) and she lights up. She is happiest at the wall with someone who knows what they are doing.

She does need the coaching as it is both good for her development and good for her enjoyment. If we replace the word coaching for 'someone with a knowledge of climbing' it makes more sense.

Anyhow, this isn't about her. Its about kids in general getting into climbing

In reply to Thelittlesthobo:

Why not join in if you're going along anyway. It depends how young/independant your daughter is but climbing gets cheaper when you're sharing lifts to the crag with mates and not paying for tuition/coaching.

Gliding is significantly cheaper than that for a junior, just in case that's of interest.


It's far from impossible, plenty of people who achieve very highly start much later in life and do without coaching etc.

No, I don't think it's a 'middle class sport' in as much as it's not exclusive, there are clubs, the crags are free. Spending a lot of time in sport centers is expensive whether you're lifting weights, running on a machine or climbing but that isn't the only way into climbing.
jk

In reply to Thelittlesthobo:
Kids don't need coaching to get into climbing, they just need to climb and enjoy it.

In reply to Thelittlesthobo:

Whilst I say 'no' (because climbing does attract across class boundaries), I reckon it attracts a higher % of people from middle/upper classes. The equipment you need, travel costs etc. mean its way harder for children to get into to (especially compared to football or rugby, both of which are massive where I live).

Now then, I have a daughter that dances, which costs us well more than double your climbing costs !! (even the thought of it gets me frothing at the mouth..........worth it though).

In reply to winhill:

Brilliant!

In reply to Thelittlesthobo:



A single Mum in that situation,who did just that with her daughter,used to be a regular poster on here. I hope she sees this thread soon, and can help give you some answers or advice.

In reply to Thelittlesthobo:

Comparing the costs of climbing and football are misleading. Firstly, there's the cost of providing infrastructure. According to Sport England it would cost around £50,000 to create a youth size football pitch, including drainage. Entreprises budget guide says you can expect to pay up to £350 per sq metre to build a typical commercial climbing wall. That's without ropes, quickdraws and equipment. I don't have costs for maintenance but I suspect this too is significantly higher than the cost of maintaining a football pitch. Is it surprising that you have to pay a lot more to use a climbing wall? If your son uses a municipal or school pitch then there you have paid additional costs through your taxes, which don't appear in your comparison.

What is ratio between kids and trainers? I would guess that the climbing classes have a much lower pupil-instructor ratio, and again this has to be paid for.

It's annoying that you have to pay just to belay your daughter. However if you take her swimming and go in the pool to supervise her you would expect to pay - why not for this?

I take your point though, and I agree that the sport isn't very well set up for introducing children. Child-protection issues and the responsibility of looking after someone else's child in a high-risk environment put a lot of clubs off letting children in (although many will let them accompany their parents). If you don't come from a climbing family, and especially if you don't live close to any rock, then indoor walls may be the only option. However that is the high-cost route, and if other options are available the sport need not be expensive.

In reply to Jimbo C:


This. You could easily buy a pair of shoes, and take her climbing/bouldering and save a fortune. However your daughter sounds like she's climbing at a very high level - so unless your son is also competing in football at the same level (2nd best junior team?) you're not comparing like for like. Is the coaching he receives at the same level?

Not to say indoor climbing isn't more expensive than kicking a ball around a park, but again - that's not like-for-like. It's probably about the same cost as renting a 5-a-side pitch every match and having to supply the nets and balls..?

In reply to Goucho:

I'll know who to ask to lend me tenner to the end of the week then next time Mr Goucho sir. <tugging m'forelock squire>

In reply to Thelittlesthobo:

Not a new debate , I'm reminded of the alleged first conversation between Chris Bonington and Don Whillans underneath the Cromlech.

" We need your help, there's been an awful accident"

" Whats oop? 'As tha got plum stuck in thee gob?"

In reply to tcashmore:

That's a great question. I started writing that I believe 100% that all sports should be open to all kids. Then I thought about a kid who wanted to try his hand at F1......... There has to be limits and again it comes down to cost. I would hope that a kid who wants to try his hand at climbing could do so unrestricted from too much of a financial burden. Same with ballet (Which my daughter found hilarious). I would hate to think of a kid with natural ability not being able to get the correct instruction because the parent either couldn't afford it or was unable to get them involved.

Its probably the crux of the thread. I worded it a bit hamfisted but if I asked 'Should climbing be accessible to all ' I believe I would have got similar replies to the ones I already have. Some would say it is. Some would say it isn't. Some would say they don't want it to be.

In reply to jkarran:

I have mentioned a few times I had to give up football playing and then coaching because I wore my body out. It also means I cant climb, or if I do attempt it I pay for it in pain for many days after. I am about to have an operation next month (High tibial osteotomy) which may mean I can have a good chance of having a go and I definitely will be doing that.

In reply to dek:

I would be very interested in her views. I read an article (Here I think)about a lad (His first name is Kai) who's mum did exactly that and it was amazing. She was a strong woman who basically learnt how to belay and took the lad everywhere he wanted to go. Was inspiring.

In reply to Thelittlesthobo:

Slightly off topic, but a bit intrigued by one of your previous responses:-
"My son buys £200 football boots. As per both my kids they get an allowance towards their shoes of £50 and if they want better they pay for it themselves".

Forgive me for my ignorance, but why if you could afford the additional 150 would you get an allowance of 50 towards football boots ? Surely you could get football boots that are good enough for 100 and saved yourself and whoever gives you the allowance 50 pounds and had another 50 towards the climbing bills ?

In reply to Thelittlesthobo:

Why don't you post here and ask if anyone wants to show you and your daughter how to climb? On real rock.

Then you can do it again, and say you've got some experience but does anyone want to go climbing with me and my daughter.

Not expensive, not exclusive, and I think your problems are solved?

In reply to Durbs:

Durbs my son is a very good footballer but lacks my daughters level of effort. If he suddenly took on that effort level I would quite easily have him at a PL club for coaching as I have quite a few contacts in this regards. I also put this into the context of ANY KID I see with the ability to play at PL level. If I see one I will have them in front of a scout. As it stands he enjoys his football and that's all that matters to me. County and League cup champions isn't bad

In reply to Thelittlesthobo:


Join the club. Most people suffer for it in one way or another. Try asking on here who isn't nursing at least one climbing related chronic injury!


Good luck, I hope it goes well. The barrier to you getting involved and getting out into the mountains climbing with your daughter this summer probably isn't as big as you think. It might give you another perspective on the huge and varied thing we all rather ambiguously call climbing.

jk (knackered fingers, heels and toes in case you're wondering and it was well worth it)

In reply to tcashmore:

Son gets £50 allowance for boots off me.
Son asks for a pair of £200 boots
Son goes to piggy bank which he has saved up birthday money and pocket money and puts other £150 towards boots and is happy as pig in muck.

He is a bit like me in that regards. If he wants something he will wait and save for it. I dont begrudge him anything but I will teach him the value of something

In reply to Thelittlesthobo:

So who do you think should be doing what to make climbing more accessible?

In reply to climbwhenready:

You would think I would have done so wouldn't you.

Well I have in one form. I have posted on threads talking about getting kids into climbing etc and I have had people email me direct and offer to get her involved in things which was fantastic. I have asked for advice in how to go about it.

Trouble is its mostly indoor which we already do. As soon as you talk about outdoors you start (Understandably) discussing responsibility and other issues. Imagine most people would be a little uncomfortable spending the day with essentially a strangers 8yr old daughter with all the responsibility and other things involved.

In reply to Thelittlesthobo:

That's a shame. I'd do it - as long as you were there too. Unfortunately I live in London (*).

(*) 9 months and counting

In reply to jkarran:

Thanks for that.

In reply to Thelittlesthobo:

The prince's trust did free climbing.

In reply to climbwhenready:

And I would snap your hands off if it were possible.

I am thinking that the local climbing club are now going to be climbing at the roped wall through the winter. If I can get her to the wall when they are climbing as much as possible and I can try to get in convo with them then it may be possible for them to allow us to come with them next summer (I am willing to make the effort to learn if I can). Again it comes down to their willingness to allow us into the fold, so to speak.

There were a few positive comments last night about her climbing so I dont think they would have issues with her ability but I totally understand the complications they would have

I haven't read all the replies but noticed in your first post you said you have to pay to belay. I would argue that with the climbing wall or go to a different climbing wall if you can. You shouldn't have to pay to belay.

In reply to Ramblin dave:

Hi dave,

I have just read that back and tbh I think I got a couple of posts mixed up. You are correct that isn't remotely what you were saying.

Apologies.

In reply to jwa:

Haha, we did and it got a bit messy.

That will be £11 sir
Only the daughter is climbing
Still £11 sir
I haven't paid for myself previously here
Well you should have done
But she is 3st wet through, I cant climb with her belaying me
Ohhh well then sir if you aren't a competent climber then she cant climb either
I didn't mean I dont know how to tie in or belay or even climb. I am a crap climber but competent on the wall
Are you sure (Looks at me suspiciously)
I quickly pay the money and scamper away.

In reply to Thelittlesthobo:

Scrap the wall and use real rock, £1000 saved instantly.

In reply to Andy Morley:

Andy, sorry I missed this.

I haven't used the words poor in any posts as I dont want some of the peeps here getting their teeth into what defines poor.....

Anyhow, have you got any kids that climb with you (5-12yrs old) who probably need some parental supervision but their parents cant afford climbing wall costs amongst your climbing partners?

Have you seen many of these kids who dont have climbing parents climbing with others at the crags?

Basically can a kid who doesn't have a parent who can afford it or a family who climbs be able to get the same oppertunities

In reply to Al Evans:
I know its now a long thread but you really need to read threads before stating what seems to be the obvious

In reply to Ramblin dave:

I am not sure Dave. That's one of the reasons I started the thread.

I do believe some climbers, like I did as a football coach, could give something back to the sport and help youngsters experience all these examples people give of 'real' climbing.

In reply to Thelittlesthobo:




I started climbing in a volunteer run climbing club, and then went on to volunteer in the club when I was a bit older. The risks involved in climbing does make it a more expensive past time even in a volunteer run club due to insurance costs and then there are also wall entry costs, equipment hire / purchase costs etc.

In reply to Thelittlesthobo:






I understand what you're getting at but what you're describing above is not a standard climbers experience. This is what you have deemed necessary for your child to become and progress as a competition climber. If my child wanted to go climbing (and I wasn't able to take them) I could send them to a kids club at my local wall for £10 for a two hour session.

Climbing however is a mixed bag. When we climb outside, a friend comes with us who lives off very little money doing odd jobs for food. He very rarely comes indoor climbing due to the cost, but in real terms climbs more than most and all for free.

There's huge variety in all sports, if I buy my child a £100 bike from decathlon it's unlikely he's going to ride it to a win the tour de France, that doesn't mean he can't use it to become a cyclist.

In reply to Thelittlesthobo:
The great difficulty is quite possibly insurance - Scouting manages it but it's made easier by owning an insurance broker and a substantial self-insurance deposit in Guernsey! (yes, really) coupled with the reasonable number of climbing facilities on volunteer-run Scout camp sites (or at least if there are paid staff they are usually few).

If anyone here is in Bucks and interested:
http://bucksscoutsclimbing.co.uk/

They are based at Green Park outdoor centre in Aston Clinton, Aylesbury but also do several trips to the Peak each year. It's mainly aimed at 14+ (Explorer Scouts) though you do get the odd slightly younger one I think. They run their own training/award scheme but it is very heavily influenced by NICAS.

In reply to Thelittlesthobo:
Just for peoples interest, thought I'd post this link to Wigan Youth Zone - initiated by some rich local businessmen (including Dave Wheelan of Wigan Athletic/DW Sports fame and Martin Anscough from plant hire fame). This offers mega cheap climbing to all young people living locally. Wished it was here when I got into climbing! (although it may have stopped me cycling umpteen miles to Wilton, which on reflection I wouldn't have missed for anything)

http://www.wiganyouthzone.org/young-people/whats-on/

edit............50 pence a session !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

In reply to girlymonkey:

Hi girlmonkey.

How old were you when you started? I think some of these replies are because I just said youngster. By that I mean someone who really needs parental supervision or at least adult supervision

In reply to Caroline_Schofield:

Hi Caroline,

£10 for 2hrs kids club is great. That's pretty darned cheap and I bet your wall has busy kids clubs. I bet it also has parents watching or even climbing and spending money on coffee and cake I was at the Huddersfield wall recently and was really impressed with the throughflow of kids getting beginners lessons. It seemed like over the 5hrs+ we were there class upon class went through. There was also a steady stream of parents either watching or eating at the café.

You have said the friend who is a little less well off doesn't go indoors much due to the cost. What about if he had a kid who wanted to climb? I suppose the kid would get all the experience of climbing outdoors (Lucky kid). What if the parent wasn't a climber. A kid who wants to climb, maybe has ability to climb but parent cant afford it....that's the shame I see

In reply to Thelittlesthobo:


I think it's the same for a lot of activities for children. The other week, one of my climbing partners who is a single mum arranged to come to a local wall with us. She got called in to work a shift at short notice, so her Dad brought the kids who would have been disappointed otherwise and their mum asked me and a couple of our other regular climbing partners to keep an eye on them. Her Dad's elderly and has dodgy hips and the boys are 6, 8 and 9 so we had a lively time that evening.

I don't know if that answers your question, but having kids involves a sacrifice of leisure for many people regardless of class and even income (people can be money rich but time poor). Not all children get opportunities to engage in as wide a range of activities as others do. C'est la vie!

In reply to Neil Williams:

Great info neil.

In reply to Thelittlesthobo:

There's quite a few comparisons in this thread between climbing and football. But I think one point has been missed. 50 year old footballers by and large aren't playing football any more. So they coach or referee, often voluntarily, often youth teams, and get their satisfaction out of seeing those they coach do well.

50 year old climbers go climbing, and hope to do so for many more years. Some will introduce their own children, but only an exceptionally dedicated few, or those that are paid to do it, are motivated to introduce climbing to children other than their own.

Martin

In reply to mick taylor:

Seriously 50p a session. Wow that's fantastic.

In reply to Martin Hore:

That's an excellent point, although our local team Upperby Zimmers would disagree with you regarding stopping at 50

You are right of course.

only an exceptionally dedicated few, or those that are paid to do it, are motivated to introduce climbing to children other than their own.

That's bang on for me.

In reply to Thelittlesthobo:

Yep...............think I subsidised it a bit buying all them pies watching Wigan Athletic.

In reply to Martin Hore:

I think climbers of my generation (67 years old and climbing for 50 years) are also reluctant to encourage anyone to take up what they see as a dangerous activity. Many of us have lost friends to this "sport".

Al

In reply to mick taylor:

In that case Mcdonalds & KFC should be paying for me to have ratho as my own private climbing wall

In reply to GridNorth:

Seriously? That wasn't one of the responses I expected. Do you still climb?

I wouldn't expect someone to hold fatalities against the sport they love.

In reply to Thelittlesthobo:

Football is a huge, well-established sport (8.5 million adult participants, compared with a couple of hundred thousand climbers) with a strong network of clubs and coaching facilities. Being a team sport, it needs to attract new players at all levels, and the professional clubs have an interest in bringing on talented young players. None of this really applies to climbing.

Should climbing be open to all? Of course, and for adults on the whole it is. Should it be accessible to children? That's a far more difficult question - climbing for children raises a great many issues. Until the advent of indoor walls to provide a relatively safe, warm environment a great many parents would have said "No" (mine did). The difficulty is that far more than other sports climbing relies on self-reliance and judgement of risk, which children cannot be expected to take on for themselves. They way they participate has to be different from the way adults do, which perhaps isn't the same, or at least not to the same degree, as other sports.

There are obstacles, financial and otherwise, to getting involved in any activity. When I was a climbing-mad teenager the obstacles preventing me from climbing were geography (I lived in Essex) and parental opposition (they thought it was too dangerous). No indoor walls in those days. Football perhaps has fewer obstacles than most, but climbing isn't really that bad, some activities are far worse. Some neighbours' children both became invovled in water-skiing at a fairly high level - now that was expensive. And as others have pointed out, by getting into competitive indoor climbing your daughter is at the costly end of the spectrum where climbing is concerned.

In reply to Al Evans:


So you save £300 on a wall membership. Great. But it costs £70 to fill the tank on your car and for most city dwellers the nearest crag with climbs they are interested in doing is a hell of a lot further away than the nearest climbing wall.

If you do the maths taking into account all costs the cost per hour of climbing time is almost certainly much lower at the indoor wall. Not only that but the ratio of travel time to climbing time is far better and it doesn't matter if it is raining or dark.

The whole 'it's free to climb outside thing' is a legend unless you happen to live in one or two favoured places.

In reply to Thelittlesthobo:

I, personally, was 16. However, the club took anyone of secondary school age, I only moved there though when I was 16. There may be fewer for primary aged kids. I know of one near us that takes kids from about 10, but not sure about others.

In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:

Quite a few more places to live and work and be close to rock than that Tom.

In reply to Thelittlesthobo:

ok, fair enough.

In reply to Thelittlesthobo:

Yes I still climb to a reasonable standard on rock but I no longer climb either Alpine or ice, these are far more serious activities. More than 20 climbers I have known personally, some of whom were friends, have been killed climbing. None of them were with me at the time I might add. A few were in the greater ranges, some were alpine and some were climbing solo but ALL of them were very competent and respected climbers at the top of their game. I have also witnessed many accidents and been involved in several rescues. I have personally endured a fractured skull, a broken arm, broken ribs and frost bite over the years. I hasten to add that modern equipment has made climbing much safer these days, if it wasn't I would have given up some years ago.

Climbing gyms are very safe, which has led to the somewhat sanitised view of climbing that is currently prevalent, but it's always worth bearing in mind that they can lead to more demanding aspects of the activity.

Al

In reply to Thelittlesthobo:



I think the trouble is that taking kids climbing outdoors is a pretty big commitment for someone to take on. You're taking responsibility for someone else's children in a situation where they could easily be killed, which is a fairly serious and scary thing to do - I've done it once with a relative's kids, and it was pretty nervewracking. And on top of that, for most people, taking some kids out to a crag means giving up a whole day or possibly a whole weekend (compared to a couple of hours after work for football coaching), which is a lot to ask for on a regular basis.

All this adds up to a lot to ask from someone, particularly when it isn't something that's ever been part of the culture of climbing . Not many experienced climbers are going to say "well, someone did the same for me when I was a kid", because generally they didn't - experienced climbers normally started by joining a club or figuring it out for themselves when they were old enough to take responsibility for themselves.

In reply to Thelittlesthobo:


I've got news for you. You can read examples but you can't read contexts (though you can certainly appreciate them). And I assure you I have read your example.


Your opening contention is thus:



And you then go on to make a ridiculous generalisation drawn from one person's [your!] experience.


As tons of folk have already told you, you're pouring money away. I don't know what age your daughter is but, when I first met Shauna Coxey, she was about 11 or so. Her dad, Mike, coached her pretty well given that he wasn't really a climber.



I was 13, not 17, when I started.



Why don't you read what you've written and reflect upon it - because I'm afraid your logic is flawed. You can't wholeheartedly agree (To a point).


And, if fact, if this thread is telling you anything, it's that your logic is flawed. Lots of people have made highly valid points. For instance, Baron has put things far better than I ever could. Please heed what they're saying. I'm sure you'll stand to gain by it!

Mick

In reply to Thelittlesthobo:


Climbing isn't a sport. It's sport. You don't hold fatalities against it but those fatalities are never taken lightly. Like Al (GridNorth), I've lost loads of mates to climbing. It hurts. It will always hurt. If I had kids, I'd have very mixed emotions about them climbing.

Recently my climbing partner's son went to the Alps for the first time. I don't give a toss that he's climbed 8b. I was still shitting bricks. Thanfully he came back sobered by the experience. The first deadly illusion, 'I can piss up this!' was well and truly battered.

None of us knows where climbing will take us. Best if you read the 'Climb if you will...' passage at the end of 'Scrambles in the Alps'. Consummate wisdom from circa 1872. Arguably the wisest words ever written about climbing - from deep, terrible, personal experience.

Mick

In reply to Thelittlesthobo:

So basically, you think that experienced climbers should give up their (valuable climbing) time for free, deal with the insurance issues for teaching something that can, if you screw up or get unlucky, give rise to serious injury or death, not to mention the child protection hassles, whilst acting as a free childminder for children that might not be particularly bothered about climbing?

No thanks - though you seem to have a problem with this. Introducing mates, younger siblings, etc to climbing, and teaching them - fine. But that's because doing that is a good way to spend time with people I like, whilst doing something I like. Knowing a number of climbing instructors, I know that for the most part, teaching children how to climb is thankless.

As others have said, there are ways to get into climbing much more cheaply than you are doing with your daughter - particularly if you join the scouts, or only go to one wall instead of two, or join a club in order to learn how to climb so that you can teach your children. In fact, I'd say that climbing can be one of the cheaper sports out there. Sure, that's not possible for everyone, but that's life - and as you said, tough titty.

In reply to Mick Ward:
Mick, I am not here to argue. I am trying to read and digest whats said and if I have missed something then my sincere apologies.

I wholeheartedly agree (To a point) - Yep I laughed at that about 5 times while trying to keep up with the thread. TBH I couldn't be bothered to edit it when I noticed and I hoped people wouldn't get hung up on it.

I will reread your post and try to take in your valued input. I will also reread barons post, although I think I actually agreed with his post (I will have another look).

Just had another look. Yep I didn't state her age.

Mick I am big and ugly enough to take whats coming for a lack of thought in my posts. Again there was no intention. However most on here dont seem to have your aggressive tone in their posts and the need to shove them back. I think if you read some of the posts when someone has pointed out this lack of judgement, ihave tried to show I do listen.

In reply to whenry:
Thanks for your well natured response too.

It was a really helpful thread for me to get my thoughts in check. Thank you for everyones input and I will consider it.

There has been an offline benefit to this thread which may well help next year so it was worthwhile.

In reply to Thelittlesthobo:

Hey gridnorth, you especially I hope the comment wasn't taken the wrong way. I know Mick has commented above but when you mentioned the fact that you would consider not introducing people to the sport because of this I obviously had little comprehension (It doesn't happen very often in football).

In reply to Thelittlesthobo:

There are 8.5m adult participants in football, according to the FA. I would guess that only a tiny percentage of this go on to coach when they get too old to play, but with these numbers it is still plenty. Only a few hundred thousand participate in rock climbing and hill walking combined. Even if a similar percentage were to get involved in voluntary activities for kids, the actual numbers would be tiny and your chances of having access to them would be remote.

There is actually a strong tradition in climbing of taking novices under your wing and most climbing clubs do this all the time. However as has been repeatedly pointed out, there is a world of difference between taking a novice adult climbing and taking a child, let alone several. The risks and responsibitlies involved simply cannot be compared with football coaching.

I would say it is easier than ever before to get into climbing, and the costs need not be much. If you can't afford much you might have to cut back on some things, but just to go climbing, even indoors, need not cost the earth.

In reply to Thelittlesthobo:

Clearly you are confused, as has been said already (Mick Ward particularly has made some v good replies)
What you should have asked was: 'if I want my daughter to become a contending indoor competition climber, will it cost me a lot more than if she just goes to the indoor wall and has fun?' Obviously, YES! You could ask: 'does climbing cost much if you just go to the indoor wall?', Obviously, NO. Or.. 'does climbing cost anything if you go bouldering?' answer: very little at all.
Then again your question actually was: do the middle classes (whatever they are) earn more than the 'working' (?) classes? In some cases, yes, in some, no. (even if you can define these terms).
Your final question re single mums and Ondra: does talent need money? Well yes, at some point, but only after a lot of hard work and dedication, which come free but can't be bought.
Middle class, working class? No-one at the wall/crag gives a damn.

In reply to Mick Ward:





I've got an old photo taken of a group of eight of us at Gogarth from 1979, all boyish smiles, wild eyed with appalling dress sense and hairstyles.

At the last count, there are only two of us still alive. Apart from one who died of Parkinsons recently, the rest were all killed climbing.

Climbing is a wonderful adventure, but it can also be a very harsh mistress.

In reply to Jim Nevill:

Yeah. ok

In reply to Howard J:
Howard, that's probably the most I have taken out of the thread. If and when I get myself active next year I get my arse on the walls climbing, get myself involved with the local club and THEN I can take some of the responsibility to get her involved outside

I am trying to take it in. I promise

In reply to Thelittlesthobo:

My apologies if I've been aggressive. Let's put it firmly behind us.

There's a lot of stuff on this thread. My feeling is that generally people are trying to help. Climbing is potentially different to other activities. You get kids living at their local walls and, not so many years later, they're doing free ascents of big, gnarly routes on El Cap. Then they're maybe taking their prowess to the Karakorum or Patagonia or Alaska. This isn't a bad thing but... these are very dangerous places indeed (far too serious for punters like me!) To survive, judgement is going to need to be deeply ingrained. In addition to the technical prowess, people need to know when to go for it and when to back off. Even on British trad crags, you've got to know when to go for it and when to back off.

We simply don't know where your daughter will go with climbing. She might get bored with it; she might be a future star. We just don't know. I guess we both hope that, whatever she does, she's safe and she enjoys herself.

Re judgement:

“Still, the last sad memory hovers round, and sometimes drifts across like floating mist, cutting off sunshine and chilling the remembrance of happier times. There have been joys too great to be described in words, and there have been griefs upon which I have not dared to dwell; and with these in mind I say: Climb if you will, but remember that courage and strength are nought without prudence, and that a momentary negligence may destroy the happiness of a lifetime. Do nothing in haste; look well to each step; and from the beginning think what may be the end.”

Good luck!

Mick

In reply to Mick Ward:

Mick, I will reread the thread again and try to make more of it than you think I have. I understand your experience gives you knowledge I cant fathom. That's why your input is probably harder for me to understand but no less relevant.

When I start a thread I usually start it with the precursor that I am a complete novice. This isn't so much to say be kind to me. Its more so that posters can understand that sometimes I wont understand their POV because I simply haven't the experience. What I do offer is the POV of what is a big number of people who are coming into the sport from a complete novices perspective. I am not assuming we are all the same but some are. Like it or not if we ask a question, there are probably hundreds of others in pretty much exactly the same position (I have had messages from others saying they have similar feelings)

Definitely behind us.

Would you like me to discuss with you the intricate failings of how football is setup, why the FA will never succeed in discovering the next messi (Other than by pure luck) or even the offside rule.

In reply to Goucho:

I'm sorry.

Recently my climbing partner showed me a photo of him and two mates in the Alps in 1976. Though they were Southerners (and thereby less wild!) even so, one of them had died climbing. I think he knew about five fatalities to my more than 50.

In a way, I bitterly regret not having photos. In another way, I'd glad. I just couldn't bear it. It's the wild eyed look, frozen in time forever. When Noddy died, it broke me. When Will died, it pretty much finished me off.

Sorry. Think I'll bugger off and go bouldering now.

Mick

In reply to Thelittlesthobo:


Except you're talking about a very specific area of a sport and the costs associated with it. Some parents pay £40 an hour for coaching for their kids (even working class parents) and even at that level are able to report back good value, so part of the issue is how to evaluate value in that sense.


I have no idea how it works at Eden but that's why I said guidance, I'd be surprised if it was zero as the staff share knowledge etc. Quite a few of the best coaches don't attend every single regular session, or even most of them, the point is that they are directing it.


Like I said, you've only just scratched the surface of the effort involved.

As for non-climbing parents, there are 2 examples regularly used, Sasha DiGuillan (first women to climb 9a) and brilliant youth climber used to live a 5 hour drive away from her coaching but her non-climbing mom drove her anyway. Also in the States, a review of top youth athletes found one factor that was the most common quality - they mostly came from 2 car families. I'm not suggesting that buying a wreck and leaving on the drive will boost your daughter's climbing 3 grades but rather that 2 car families had the mobility and finance to fully support their kids.

To support a kid through ages 8-18 in competitions a parent has to do a 4 hour lead belaying course costing £80, that makes climbing totally accessible and trivially easy. If a parent won't do that (or pay someone else) then their kid ain't going to be the next Adam Ondra.

I seem to remember Wayne Rooney's extended family had to support him to the tune of tens of thousands of pounds, they had a big party when he signed for Everton as a Pro because it meant they'd get their investment back. Much less accessible.

As for climbers themselves putting something back in, my kids have had free coaching sessions off a who's who in British climbing - Shauna Coxsey, Nathan Philips, Dave Barrans, Katy and Pete Whittacker, previous BBCs, TeamGB members , I bet 10 or a dozen in all and not as formal hothousing but mostly random right place right time stuff. You'd never get that accessibility like that to the top stars in football.

I was at the Bowderstone this year, walking passed it and my kids got up on it but couldn't do much in their walking boots, so I said we'd got the shoes in the car I go get them. There was a bunch of guys trying the roof round the back but I tend not to get into conversations with people in those circs, what you gonna say?

Anyway we looked at The Crack, not hard (6a?) but a bit of a highball for the kids at 6 metres, so the kids weren't happy about having no mats. The guys round the back heard this, came over and lent us a couple of mats (they had about 8, looked like a factory sale at Silentnight).

I don't tend to read the comics or keep up with celebrity climbers but one of the guys was called Jordan and I thought the only guy I knew who was good enough to repeatedly fall off an 8b roof was Jordan Buys, didn't ask him but I was indisposed when the kids wanted spotting so he jumped up to volunteer and helped take them through the problem.

I had to google an image later just to confirm it was Buys but there aren't many sports where you can go for a random walk, do a random boulder and get helped out by people operating at the very highest level. (I did once bump into Steve Chettle in the car park at B+Q but he didn't give me any football tips).

The obvious point is that there is a whole other world out there, it's just you haven't experienced it yet.

In reply to Thelittlesthobo:
Your thread title and OP don't seem very related.

People choose to spend their money on their kids in whatever way they want. For every family you think of as a middle class parent with children who climb there is a family who probably don't fit the definition of what you think middle class is, who wouldn't think of themselves as middle class, and some may be on benefits (your words, not mine), who nevertheless spoog hundreds on an Xbox or whatever for the children. Don't make people think it is middleclass when it is there for all.

In reply to Thelittlesthobo:
Ditch the coaching and by her a copy of 'self Coached Climber'. Then sit her down to view all the Karate Kid films, tell her to find herself some zen odd bloke to coach for free - after she's washed your car (wash with the right, wax with the left). If she asks for more tell her that privilege will rob her of a deep sense of achievement.

My daughter climbs and it costs about 30 a month. I'm not sure I'm up for her competing but that's for different reasons. If she really wants to we'll find a way I should think.

I'm a single mum on a less than average wage with a scary mortgage. The best thing I've done to support my daughter in sport is to get fit, give her a decent example and instill in her a deep sense of sarcastic wit. Essential for sport....

In reply to Thelittlesthobo:

Flipn heck, your costs seem to be rather large! My local wall is a £20 lifetime membership and £5, £9.50 or £11 to climb depending on the time. Also anyone who isn't climbing doesn't have to pay (so that would eliminate the paying to belay).
My suggestion is maybe to see if there are any other walls around that are still local so there aren't huge costs but you may find a better deal there.
Being 20 I certainly don't have these issues, but I know what both me and my parents would suggest and that would be to see what she enjoys the most and maybe drop one of the activities that she finds less important or fun.

In reply to Howard J:

1 other point - a football coach can train a whole team a climbing coach can only hold 1 rope at a time.

In reply to Mick Ward:


My thoughs as well Mick.
But really this is a very different generation. Back in the 50/60's my father would take me to football and cricket, but thanks to Sky that option is now excessively expensive. My father never ever took me climbing as it was not part of his background. Today kids are bussed around everywhere to this and that activity.
I was with my brother-in-law this summer in Glen Coe when his phone rang. It was his 21 year old son who had just written off his car. He immediately demanded that his father replace it as he just couldn't manage without one! And we were in the middle of a climb!!! I know what I would have said! Needless to say he spent over an hour on the phone and eventually sorted him out with a replacement car. It totally ruined my day, but perhaps I am being unduly selfish.
As a 12 year old I cycled to Brecon from Birmingham (with my brother) and we climbed Pen y Fan. No adults, no specialist clothing or boots, and not the foggiest idea what we were about, except that the hill was just in front of us, and we should eventually make it to the top. I camped in winter snow with sleeping bag directly on snow, or used barns or chicken shacks. There were no gear shops like today, so I got hold of an entrenching tool and made it into a winter axe in the school's metal workshop, and headed for the Trinity Face on Snowdon (I was 14 now, so much wiser, or so I thought!). and so life's adventure carried on with no help or even interest displayed by my parents.
My first week in Scotland ( inspired by boy at school that had cycled through the Highlands for his holidays and his slides of the trip opened my eyes to somewhere totally different and unknown.) cost just £5 and included rock climbing in Glen Coe and Ben Nevis in very average weather, but did also include my first 2 Munros. I was only 18. Next summer we biked over to the Alps, and as we were new to the game, chose the Matterhorn for our first peak! Fortunately for us the weather turned bad just above the hut and we baled out. My total holiday cost £30 for a month, and we sold the bike when we got back!
And so life's learning curve had begun. We had no instructors to check that our Tarbuck was correctly tied, that we were suitably attired for the mountains, that we could navigate, and as for insurance, rescue via mobile phone, advance weather warnings, climbing walls & specialised training, etc etc. well it just didn't apply. In reality life was much simpler, you just got on with it if that was what you wanted to do.
And that would be my advice to any kids today, just get on with it, and if you need some money to pay for it, well get a Saturday job like I did!

In reply to Sean Kelly:


At a similar age, there was a rare outing from my, ahem boarding school in Newry (full-on brutality!) to Newcastle for, bloody hell, I don't know what for and I couldn't give a hoot back then.

But, with a few hours between the bus arriving and departing, I reckoned I could get up Slieve Donard. Almost 3,000 feet. Highest peak in the Mournes. Huge, huge tick. (Well, it was to me!)

Miss the bus and automatic expulsion. Serious shit. Could I do it? It seemed a pretty tight time budget. (And it was!)

Bottom line. I went for it and, hopelessly extended time-wise, ended up facing the Mourne wall where it crosses the summit. I dragged myself up it and stared over. It was my first summit. I had absolutely no idea what I would see over that wall. What I did see was ridge after ridge after ridge of mountains, interspersed with bright gleams of lake and lough. It was magical, beyond anything I had ever imagined. It would be more than 45 years before I realised that what I was seeing was... Narnia. But at that moment, unbeknown to me, my fate was sealed. I would live - and die - a climber.

You can't buy such experience. You have to earn it. As Goucho says, climbing is a harsh mistress. She exacts payment.

And therein seems the tragedy for kids today. You can't just swipe a credit card and give them such experience. It has to be earned - in fear, in sweat, in effort. And sometimes, sadly, in death.

mick

In reply to Thelittlesthobo:

Our local council gym has a wall and bouldering room. They have clubs and tuition. Kit hire is free. Membership is subsidised or free if you're on a low income.
So, no. It's accessible to all.

And I used to climb the Edges in a pair of old trainers.

Maybe you're just approaching climbing in an expensive way?

In reply to Thelittlesthobo:

Just tried to approach this from another PoV. Basically as though I were in the same position as I am with regards to climbing but if I approached football or pretty much any other sport.

It's opened my eyes to my rather narrow viewpoint that climbing is in any way different to pretty much any other sport. My comparison with football is completely biased, in much the same way as if I had compared it with any other sport I may have had a history with.

For example. If I registered my kid with a Little Kickers franchise I would be paying £6 per session. As pointed out the numbers involved in footy coaching are a lot more than climbing. The cost involved in the facilities less.

I also had a comparison with trampolining, swimming and gymnastics. It's not surprising that the costs are all very similar.

is climbing expensive? It's not cheap but it's in line with pretty much everything else you care to mention.

In reply to Mick Ward:

(... various stories of epics, and deaths ...)

Except that 'climbing' - in the sense of the OP - might be nothing to do with any of that. It might be reduced to simply another indoors gymnastic discipline, and indeed a completely safe one.

That's what's confused me about this thread.

In reply to SiGregory:
No si, I don't think I am approaching climbing in a particularly expensive way from a beginners perspective. Just because your local facility is free or subsidised doesn't mean that is the norm. It's brilliant but unfortunately not available in any form I have witnessed locally.

The costs involved in climbing are what they are. I have learnt that today.

In reply to Rob Parsons:

Sorry rob, I know some deem it gymnastics on plastics but for others like me and my daughter it's our pathway into climbing and maybe one day becoming a proper climber like you

In reply to Thelittlesthobo:

That's great; it's a hugely rewarding activity, so good luck with it.

(I prefer to think of myself as an 'improper' climber, mind ...)

In reply to Rob Parsons:


No such thing. The minute you tie into a rope and head up, you're entering a combat zone. Not wishing to be rude but anyone who doesn't realise this is deluding themselves. I mentioned on another thread seeing a guy at a wall recently, failing to tie his knot properly. If he'd left the ground, he'd have been stuffed. (He didn't.)

There are combat zones and... combat zones. Yes, you might start down at the wall but, what then...? Maybe you venture outside. Maybe you think that cos you've ticked V8 at the wall, a wander up Snowdon in shit conditions with crap gear is a piece of piss. Maybe you die.

Mick

In reply to Mick Ward:

Well - you can die on a cricket pitch if you're unlucky. And you can easily die - or get very badly hurt - doing 'normal' gymnastics: try screwing up a dismount on the high bar.

So I don't see any real difference in that respect between indoor wall climbing, and any other conventional sport.

Of course - as I was implying - I don't see any philosophical connection between indoor climbing, and 'climbing' as I (and you, I imagine) pursue it - or at least have pursued it. That's the (laboured) point I was trying to make.

In reply to Thelittlesthobo:
I'm encouraged by this thread. Often read the blogs of some of the young competitors Emily climbing, Toby Roberts, and another one that hasn't been updated since April, to get an idea of the costs of parenting a competive climber which are generally left out of the blogs. For now we arent spending as much as you but by the time my climber is 10 I'm sure we will

I am also lucky enough to know a single mum who is able to support her daughters climbing to team standards despite the costs and her low income and having more children, like everything where there's a will there's a way

In reply to Mick Ward:



When I look back now at some of the risks taken during my formative years, through both the naivety and arrogance of youth, I do shudder a bit.

Yes, we certainly learned a lot - and pretty quickly too - from these experiences, but I also think that on more than one occasion, there was a certain amount of good fortune involved.

In reply to Howardw1968:

What's wolf mountain?

BTW you can compete in cat e at 7-8 yrs old.

In reply to Goucho:

Good fortune alone is why I am still alive. And, without the slightest disrespect, it's probably why you are still alive also.

A while ago, you had a thread about epics/times one could have died. And I was going to reply. But it would have been Part 1, then Part 2, then Part 3, then... There was no point.

We could have been two out of dozens and dozens and dozens of young, wild-eyed guys in the 70s. And then you go forward five years, and... some are gone. Another five years - more are gone. Another five years...

And you end up with us two. (You may end up with one, cos feeding my greedy little rat will probably prove too expensive one day not so far away.)

Were we the best? The bravest? Not in my case! Ah, but were we the luckiest? Yes we probably were.

And, though I'm labouring the point dreadfully, this is the 'dirty little secret' about climbing that people are understandably loath to get. They think the wall is safe. Well it is... and it isn't. (The biggest danger on walls is the clientele.) And who knows where the wall leads? Who knows?

My biggest regret in life is that I didn't bin writing and just climb. Yes, I almost certainly wouldn't be around now. But at least I'd have been fulfilled.

Mick

In reply to Thelittlesthobo:


Most kids take after their parents to some extent. It's hard not to be influenced by them - impossible in most cases. So whether you collect stamps, rob cars or sing in your local choir, somewhere along the line your parents will have had something to do with that. But often, kids do the opposite of what their parents tell them - that happens a lot too. Parents have choice and their children have choice. It's not all pre-ordained.

In reply to Thelittlesthobo:

Was trying to work out who your daughter was as at age 8 and had two possibles but deleted the other bit when I worked out you were lakes region wolf mountain is a Midlands wall has a comp in a couple of weeks.

In reply to Thelittlesthobo:

Climbing, in its self, may well not be a middle class activity.
However, engaging on UKC forums, certainly is!

In reply to Taylor's Landlord:

Climbing, in its self, may well not be a middle class activity.
However, engaging on UKC forums, certainly is!

Are you trying to say that working class oiks are incapable of using modern media as a means of discussion?

In reply to Mick Ward:



There are combat zones and combat zones... Driving to work is a combat zone, crossing the road is a combat zone and so is cutting up onions for that omlette. Don't slip teary eyed with that sharp knife or your finger will be right off! Just varying degrees of combat!

I think you are going overboard. Have you been in combat Mick?

In reply to FactorXXX:

Go and read the stuff that's posted on DIYnot.com if you want to see the working classes using a web forum. Go to the General Discussion forum for Britain's undercurrent of ignorant racism, bigotry and prejudice.

In reply to Rigid Raider:

A very snobbish and odd comment.

In reply to Thelittlesthobo:

You're comparing a sport where you're qualified to coach with one where you can't.
How much would a pony + tack + feed + stabling + lessons cost?

I pay £16pcm for my son's membership. 3x tutored climbing club sessions per week. Unlimited access. Free kit hire.
I can belay him for free as often as we like. Plus free gym and pool.

Someone has seen you coming if it's costing a grand a year.

Alternatively Climbing Works run daily kids clubs at £90 per quarter. It's not £100 per year, but a building costs more to maintain than a field.

I think you're making sweeping generalisations based upon your locale, and you're not comparing to the other activities your daughter likes.

Why not qualify in climbing tuition yourself, and start something up?
I've seen a number of parents do this down the wall, some were making 50 mile round trips 4 times per week to use the facilities, so switched to climbing outside in summer and made a home wall.

In reply to SiGregory:

Si, I totally agree. If you look I spent a bit of time last night having a look at what I would be paying if I was introducing a kid to football as a complete beginner with no knowledge.

Guess what? It was pretty similar.

I then checked out a few other sports. Guess what? Similar?

I have absolutely no notion that climbing is any more or less expensive than other sports now. In fact the training budget went up because of it

I still believe enticing kids into sport is a COMMERCIAL decision climbing walls should make. I spend as much on coffee & food as I do on climbing when taking my daughter anywhere to climb.

Please, the point of the thread was to get my thoughts straight on costs and value. Its worked so please stop beating me up about it.

In reply to Thelittlesthobo:

Sorry mate I get fed up with the cost of stuff, too.

When I went to bed, Somebody Was Wrong On The Internet...

In reply to Thelittlesthobo:

There's a picture in the newspaper this morning of the Duchess of Cambridge abseiling.

In reply to Rigid Raider:


Prejudice? I can find that in your posts here.
Better to be working class than a tw*t though, eh?

In reply to Thelittlesthobo:

Only if you treat climbing like other competitive sports, you do not need coaching for climbing.

Climbing is a natural activity which can also be enjoyable, experience does not have to be fast-trak and can be gained slowly. All you need is one other person with a similar interest. Apart from some initial practical training on safety and the basics etc, coaching is not vital. In fact many older climbers never even did that at the outset.

It appears to me that you consider that climbing is just about indoor climbing and you assume that it is established in a competitive sense for children like other sports. If so, then some people may well consider this fledgling and niche activity to be middle class.

In reply to Thelittlesthobo:

Climbing in the UK, or at least, platforms where climbers get together to express their views on life, are dogged by what used to be called 'middle-class morality' (aka being up oneself). I'd say that's the real problem.

In reply to Andy Morley:


As mentioned above. The internet is full of pockets where like minded people go to agree with each other. It's not limited to here and middle classes.

As pointed out above someone said my post was a massive generalisation.

And dividing 62m people into 4 class bands isn't?

In reply to Andy Morley:

Climbing in the UK, or at least, platforms where climbers get together to express their views on life, are dogged by what used to be called 'middle-class morality' (aka being up oneself). I'd say that's the real problem.

Worse than other sectors in society?
In my experience, they're exactly the same.

In reply to Andy Morley:


Speak for yourself.


The 'real problem' - in respect of what?

In reply to Turdus torquatus:

Was that off William's chopper?

In reply to Thelittlesthobo:

Guess what? It was pretty similar.


Although you can always throw more money at training you have to be sure you are getting value for money and get a better understanding yourself so you can tell if she is improving and its not just by results in competitions.


Always a hazard! the cake at my local wall is amazing so I then have to climb off the calories!


Unfortunately you did not include the costs of the competitions which despite low entry fees say£12 a time cost fuel or other transport, sometimes overnight stays which can quickly add up to over £100 and then the competition can sometimes be just a warm up, 3 boulder problems and 3 Rope problems as well as needing to by the food and drink!

On the plus side Climbing is so diverse that it is not the preserve of the middle class although the competitive side tends to suit the aspirations of this segment of society, with ice climbing in my opinion being the preserve of the lunatic fringe

At some point Karting was mentioned which reminded me of Lewis Hamilton's back story his dad sometimes worked three jobs to fund his career leading ultimately to driving a silver arrow. They weren't rich when he started now it's bit different.

In reply to Mick Ward:

To some extent Mick, I think that adventure today is manufactured, thanks to H&s and parents hot housing their kids. There's a pedo lurking behind every corner...! And as for all these sponsored events , apart from things like the 3 Peaks I recently had a climbing day ruined at sheeps Tor because some group decided to have a sponsored abseil, there were hundreds! I know a lot of good comes of these events but leave us the solitude of the mountains please.

In reply to Sean Kelly:

Two particular things have happened that have ruined sport and adventure.

Sport became professional.

Lyme Bay tragedy.

Quite a lot of good has come from those two events, but they have changed the nature of sport considerably.

For me I enjoy sport for pleasure but I take part, I do not spectate.

In reply to Sean Kelly:

Sheeps Tor's tiny (but lovely). It's no place to have a sponsored abseil. Nor is it a suitable place to fill with hundreds of people. To my mind, this is highly inconsiderate. Anybody else visiting is automatically going to have their day spoiled. What good has come of this event? Money to charity, I suppose. Well just give the money anyway; I do. Apart from that, it seems a junk experience.

My guess is that your childhood trip up Pen y Fan (a place not to be underestimated) has remained with you longer than the Sheeps Tor abseil will for most, if not all of the participants.

You can't buy experience. It can't be given to you. Yes, you can be helped. But ultimately you have to earn it - with honest effort and no bullshit.

Mick

In reply to DancingOnRock:


I seem to spend my whole life going through bouts of believing that the old-style class-system is a historical curiosity and then being faced with behaviour that says it isn't. I think class still does exist in some people's heads so it's true in a kind of self-defining, self-selecting way. Those who want to play do play. There's probably a lot more than 4 class-based sub-cultures though, all of them inhabited by people hell-bent on proving that it's possible to live in the past.

In reply to FactorXXX:


I'd be very surprised if that were true. If you wanted to artificially create several organisations or groups of people with cultures that were 'exactly the same' as one another, you'd be hugely challenged to achieve that. I don't think you'd stand a hope in Hell of succeeding. I've never come across a town, business, public sector organisation or bunch of hobbyists that wasn't unique in some way.

In reply to Rob Parsons:


I'm speaking for how I experience the culture of formal climbing organisations and platforms.


In respect of various forms of arsiness that get commented on in this forum very often. The comments can be about behaviour at climbing walls or at crags, or they can be about what goes on in this very place. In the first two cases, from what I've read the problem is often more with the person perceiving the problem and complaining about it than with the people they're complaining about. In the third case, it often seems to be some kind of competition, usually described by others as being 'sanctimonious' or 'self-righteous'. Back in the day when 'middle-class morality' was the fashionable term for it, it was called being 'holier than thou'.

In reply to Andy Morley:


There is remarkably little 'formal' organization of climbing in the UK - indeed, that's one of the nice things about the activity, to my mind. If your own experience is "dogged by what used to be called 'middle-class morality'", then that perhaps says more about you than it does about climbing.


Wow. I have no idea why any of that is relevant to the thread.

Just as a control: can you point me to *any* of your postings on this forum which make a contribution in terms of useful information actually related to climbing?

In reply to Rob Parsons:


Why?

In reply to Andy Morley:

I'll that that as a 'no.' Ok, thanks: I will leave it at that.

In reply to Rob Parsons:


If you say so.

But I really must thank you too because that display of pomposity that you have just given is _exactly_ the kind of thing that I was talking about! A fantastic example, thanks very much

In reply to MikeYouCanClimb:

Hi mike. I see this thread has moved on now and it's debating things I have no interest or knowledge of.

Just to point out something lots have picked up on.

COACHING

I use the phrase very lightly. My daughter receives a fraction of coaching in reality. 2sessions per month shared with 5 or 6 other kids. She doesn't climb well with others as she has very low attention span and basically has fun time with her pals (and that's a good thing). She therefore climbs by herself 99% of the time with zero instruction as I am not a climber. As others have said, at this age climbing is the best thing for her without getting hung up. I think the coaches might disagree to a point as they sometimes comment that bad habits can be hard to get out of.

HOWEVER she lights up when I treat her to a 1-1 session. The coaches know how to play games with her. They know how to make it interesting and they know what she is capable of. Only last week she runs upto me and is glowing about a particular climb in the cave I wouldn't have gone near.

I won't be on my feet for about 2mths soon so I have a choice to make. Pay for coaching or tell her she can't climb. I have, through the help here decided to stop being a skinflint and pay for these lessons. Not to improve her climbing but to increase the fun and to let her climb.

I hope this gets rid of this s pushy dad thing and I just want her climbing. I have a YouTube channel if anyone is interested or wants to pass comment

In reply to Thelittlesthobo:

Sounds like you have the right idea to me.

Your daughter clearly enjoys climbing and it would seem shes quite good at it for her age too. It's best to leave her to have fun and keep on enjoying it, if you / others try to push the performance side to hard, to early all that happens is she will cease enjoying it and eventually quit. Leave her to progress naturally and she'll improve simply through experience and skill she builds up through climbing.

Having seen from this thread the wall she trains at, I'm pretty sure it's the same place I go and I'm fairly sure I've actually seen you following her around as she climbs, she does seem to have a natural talent which will develop quite well if she continues into teenage years.

In reply to Lord_ash2000:

Yep that's me. always following her around the wall in my work gear

In reply to Thelittlesthobo:


Why not try climbing with her? I climb with one of mine twice a week - once you get over the dent to your pride when you find they're better than you, the benefits in terms of what it does for their confidence become really clear. I see it as part of a father's job - to play the fall guy

In reply to Andy Morley:

I do sometimes when I feel we need some fun together. Trouble is I have to balance that against being unable to walk properly for the rest of the week and sometimes I can't drive without serious pain. It's not through choice I don't climb.

Hoping it's resolved by early next year

In reply to Thelittlesthobo:


Hard to comment on something as individual as injury. I do sometimes climb with someone who's amputated above the knee - it is possible to adapt to a surprising array of impediments, but I guess if it's long-term thing that can almost be an advantage because you gear up for it, whereas temporary incapacity by its nature gives less incentive. Of my own kids, the one I climb with by far and away the most often, is registered disabled. Paradoxically, because he gets shed loads of support and encouragement for that reason, he's now way better at it than I am.

Why don't you invite one of your daughter's friends to come along with you? That way you'd kill two birds with one stone. If your daughter's like some of the people I know, teaching a friend would probably enhance her own skills. Plus you'd be introducing someone else to climbing, which I noticed was one of your concerns in starting this thread.

In reply to Thelittlesthobo:

Didn't know you were in pain. Sorry. Good luck with whatever it is.

Mick

In reply to Thelittlesthobo:

Going back to your original post I think you are both unlucky and lucky

Unlucky that you need to go to two different walls to get bouldering and roped climbing

Lucky that you can afford to do it.

We compromise on the bouldering a bit where we climb (my daughter is 7 3/4) and can occasionally go elsewhere for a better bouldering experience having chosen to start to put the extra money into attending some competitions.

I would be interested if you did put up a link to the you tube

H

In reply to DancingOnRock:


Seems to me there are only really two classes online; a small class who repeatedly raise the subject, and then the great majority who don't.

In reply to Howardw1968:
It's difficult to question costs without coming across as a dick. I can happily afford it but that's not the point. If you read the theme of my messages it's more discussing making activities accessible to those not as well off.

Anyhow, nearly ready for team training. Had achat with my daughter and she is bouncing that she will get more lessons. Means she gets to climb with someone who knows what they are doing and much more fun.

It's all good.

Here is a recent vid Howard but there are plenty others

youtube.com/watch?v=vMf8r7T3QDY&

In reply to Thelittlesthobo:

Thanks for the link

In reply to Dave Garnett:


Definitely. Although that's still 4.

1. Who repeatedly raise it.
2. Who ignore it.
3. Who say it doesn't exist.
4. Who tell those in group 1 to give it a rest.

In reply to Thelittlesthobo:

Pay to belay £11 sounds unreasonable, it's free to belay at our local wall!

However, when you start buying trad gear it's really not cheap either.

In reply to Thelittlesthobo:

So an interesting debate with the answer come out - no it isn't

In reply to Thelittlesthobo:

Hi. I liked your article. I think you're confusing having money with being middle class, and as a consequence, thinking that being poor is working class. Not so. I'm working class in origin and outlook but have plenty enough cash for climbing myself and having my son climbing as well. I know of middle class folk who are really struggling financially. And concerning Adam Ondra: I have another son at university and I'm hoping he's going to be the next Newton. He's got the opportunity. If he's got the ability it's not because he's middle class. Both middle and working class folk have their difficulties - financial, personal and social. But we all have ability, intellect and determination. Don't allow yourself or your children to underestimate one another just because of silly English class/social preconceptions. It's not fair on you, them or anyone of us.

In reply to demdyke:

Hi demdyke.

As I have said previously the reference to class was incorrect, out of context and plain wrong. Again I apologise for it. I take your point about abilities to pay, both your own and that of others. However I think I had a bee in my bonnet about something I needed to discuss and went about it in the wrong fashion.

I now do not believe climbing to be any more or less expensive than other sports. I did some research and discovered the costs are no more than anyother. It is what it is. My ability to cover the costs if I so wish are more than adequate, however it doesn't mean I have to agree with it. I actually went straight out and booked more coaching for my daughter. Not because it suddenly became cheaper but because I think she will enjoy it. Strangely just having a laugh at the wall has also reaped its own rewards recently too. I also think I have had a few off here give a hello at the wall so if you have thanks.

Thanks for your reply

In reply to Orgsm:

Oh and yes I had to pay £11 to belay again last night

Funnily enough a pal had a similar situation at the same wall so I am not the only tightarse who thinks this is a bit off. Thankfully the bouldering wall don't charge for me 'spotting' my daughter whilst she boulders. They make it up in the coffee I drink to keep warm

In reply to Thelittlesthobo:
I'm not sure what your issue with having to pay to belay is? If you're only belaying then presumably your daughter is climbing twice as much as if she were rotating climbing and belaying with another climber therefore, from the wall's point of veiw, the equipment etc is being as used equally as much?

In reply to Doghouse:

However if that charge prevents the OP (or anyone else) from climbing, the wall don't get any entrance fee. Awesome Walls don't charge if you're only belaying and they seem to be doing OK

In reply to Thelittlesthobo:

Simple answer, what you are describing is indoor climbing. There is lots of climbing outside and it is free.

In reply to Doghouse:


The wear and tear of a little kiddie is nothing compared to the wear and tear of an adult who weighs three times as much.

In reply to Thelittlesthobo:


£11 for both entries though, not just belaying.

Which wall is this? I 've climbed at all the walls in the Lakes, North of Kendal (and Kendal) and don't pay to belay.

Penrith, I haven't been to for a while, have they changed their policy? It looks a bit more professional than when it was run by the local club and all they did was give you a door code because the leisure centre staff wouldn't have been able to ask you to tie a knot because they wouldn't know what one was supposed to look like). Although TBF if I paid for 2 kids then paying for me wouldn't make it hugely expensive, so I might not remember.

Why not go to King Kong instead?

As for the cost, if you join one wall a kids season ticket is usually £250-275 per year. Train 2-3 times a week and it's a bargain. Cheaper than most sports.

In reply to winhill:

My take on it is even simpler tbh.

A child is not a machine. They need to rest (Even my daughter). If the kid takes a rest then NO ONE uses the wall. If 2 adults are climbing then one takes a rest whilst they belay so they are constantly using the wall.

In reply to winhill:

Yeah you are correct, £11 for both of us.
Again, yep its penrith wall which we really enjoy and is 20mins up the m/way (Last night was hellish). They still only give you a code and the lady who mans the front desk is rather adamant its centre policy.

Would love to use the kingkong wall more regular. We have been a couple of times and we go to Kendal when we can (They are fantastic - We love it there) but its difficult when trying to fit it in between me finishing work and my daughters 8.30 bedtime. They are better for weekends and you will never see me complaining about Kendal, we get to rope, boulder, rope, boulder, climb millions of steps, eat our lunch, climb some more and go home. We spend hours and hours there when we go.

In reply to Thelittlesthobo:

Mike - Pretty middle class that rock climbing, innit?
Dave - How d'yer work that one out?
Mike - My mate Justin does climbin and he's middle class...
Dave - What makes yer say Justin's middle class?
Mike - Becos he does rock climbing of course!

In reply to Thelittlesthobo:



I started out using second-hand gear, learning from more experienced mates. That way it was cheaper than competing at F1.

In reply to Turdus torquatus:


Lewis Hamilton started by racing go carts made of wood down a steep slope over the park.

In reply to Thelittlesthobo:

Sorry if this has been said before, but with 200+ posts I haven't ploughed my way through them, but is the OP making the assumption that wealth and class are the same thing? Correlated, yes; equivalent no. Isn't this subtle difference the whole point of the British class system? UK climbing walls are often full of not overly rich middle class students, but often devoid of those living in the streets adjacent to the walls many of whom have higher incomes.

In reply to Thelittlesthobo:


No. If you learn some climbing history and join some clubs and you will find that class and climbing have f*ck-all to do with other.

In reply to Removed User:


That's not really true. Climbing seems to be dominated by people in the ABC1 demographic categories, at least in the area I climb around Bristol. If I go climbing indoors at TCA or Redpoint in Bristol I don't very often here a Bristolian accent. And a Bristolian accent is what most people from the lower demographic categories who were raised in the city would have. Instead it's usually home-counties English or often a continental european accent from somewhere like Spain, Italy or eastern europe indicative of students (who statistically are most likely to be from middle class families) studying in the city as indicated by David Coley above. Furthermore, of the many people i've climbed with from UKC a disproportionate number have been educated to doctorate level, and I would take a guess from their occupations that most (although not all) others were educated to degree level. Of course, I'm not saying climbing is closed to anyone who's not middle class, it's just that for whatever reason middle class people are more likely to get into it. I'll add that I've climbed with quite a few builders, but most of those I think run their own businesses so that would still place them in the ABC1 category.

I was thinking that fishing provides an interesting pastime to compare climbing with. The people participating in climbing are more typical of those you find salmon fishing in Scotland than those you find wreck fishing in the English channel.

Finally, I'll say that the above is just a casual observation and in view of the whole class thing being a touchy subject I should note that it would be wrong to read into it any sense of snobbery or that I've implied any sense of relative worth between the groups categorised.

In reply to Thelittlesthobo:
If your daughter wants to make it to the top as a competition climber, your backing will be crucial. The costs will continue to multiply particularly as the competitions get further afield. And the costs apply no matter what standard you get to. GB team members pay all the costs associated with their travel, food, accommodation and entry to competitions in Europe.
Spending time having fun at lots of different walls is key. The best thing you can do is encourage her climbing friendships. Two kids climbing together not only have fun but through discussion and watching each other can improve each other's climbing. If your local wall is like ours as well, climbers are a friendly bunch and always willing to offer tips even as they are burned off the wall by the small girl!
We've been lucky. Our local wall is £4.50 for kids and free to belay. No wall within an hour of us charges to belay. Ones that have charged us to belay are ones we don't go back to- mostly southern walls when we venture down there.
Over the years, we have been through various coaching set ups. Saturday morning kids clubs, mid-week bouldering for advanced kids, monthly sessions for elite climbers, 1:1 sessions with some of the best coaches out there, a training plan. None of them are cheap. Some are more worthwhile than others. Consider if your daughter has the mental toughness to win and lose at that elite level. Coaching can help but won't create that. In the meantime, enjoy the competitions. One reason we kept going back was the friendships made and the supportive atmosphere at local and national competitions. How many other sports can you discuss the best way to solve a problem with your competitors or chill out with them while awaiting your turn? Similarly, in what other sport would you find yourself climbing alongside national stars who take the time to offer advice and tips?
To answer your original question, compare climbing to ice-skating or horse riding or skiing or any other sport that demands equipment and a commitment to travel and climbing will compare favourably. Compare it to football or cricket or other team sports with massive national infrastructure and the comparison is less favourable.
For us, the opportunities and experiences, our daughter has had have made the financial sacrifice worthwhile. And before you ask, yes we are non-climbing parents too!

In reply to Kettledrum:
And how did you work out these climbers are ABC then, or did you just make it up to match your prejudice ?

In reply to Orgsm:


I have no idea whether climbers in general are ABC / middle class but was referring to the costs associated with competing in climbing compared to other sports mentioned as I believe the original poster was implying.
The ones I meet seem to come from all walks of life but the financial sacrifices hold true for all those supporting their kids in competition climbing of whatever level.

In reply to Kettledrum:


I'm not that much interested whether there are more Cavaliers than Roundheads in the climbing world, or whether there are more Roundheads than there are Cavaliers. I'm slightly more interested in how far other climbers even care about antiquated tribal distinctions of whatever kind. I'd like to think that most climbers don't really give much of a **** about all that, but I suspect that I would probably be disappointed if anyone did conduct a survey of some kind. There's still a lot of snobbery in this world and probably also an equal amount of people with chips on their shoulders of various kinds.

In reply to Andy Morley:


Noticing something exists and commenting on it do not necessarily mean someone cares much about it. However, with respect, it's obvious you do. And it's not really an antiquated distinction, although the boundaries are these days more blurred. You can't help but notice general differences between the types of people who prefer certain activities, and it's human nature to form some kind of categorisation for that, and actually useful too for some businesses, civil servants or politicians. Perhaps if the labelling of the categories was more PC, or didn't imply a hierarchy (such as ABC1) then there'd be fewer complaints.

In reply to wurzelinzummerset:


I was talking to a psychologist friend about this - she says that there's new research out by a.n.other British university about the modern version of the class system, which mentions a lot of different variables that didn't figure back in the days of flat caps and whippets.

Part of this research apparently includes an online questionnaire a bit like a personality test that she and an old friend of hers both completed. Although my friend is a highly qualified professional, she only came in on a similar level as her friend who works in a shop. She thinks that's because her friend owns her own house whereas my psychologist friend doesn't - she lives with her girlfriend who owns the house.

Listening to all this, I couldn't help thinking "who really cares and why should any of this matter?"

In reply to Kettledrum:

Thanks for that reply kettledrum. Made sense to me. The other posts seems to be peeps getting hung up on what is or isn't the class system. Tbh I have said a few times on this thread, my use of it in the title was stupid and ill informed. I can't keep saying it guys.

In reply to Thelittlesthobo:



Yes, I think I paid to belay there as well, still cheaper than Kendal for me though.

Penrith is an oddball, you're not technically paying to belay, like some commercial walls, you're paying to establish your bona fides in an unsupervised wall, that's why it's lead climbing only, so you don't get people claiming they know what they're doing when they don't. It's a muppet filter, negotiated by the local club when they persuaded the LA to put the wall in. Unfortunately you fall the wrong side of it, but the idea of younger kids lead climbing wasn't popular back then, my local wall had a rule against under 12s leading til a few years ago and their kids clubs started at 8YO, now it's 5YO.

Kendal, I think, is a poor value proposition. I was there last year and it was £7.50 (already expensive) and they had a 12 and under bouldering room that my 9YO flashed the 2 hardest circuits of in 20 minutes as a warm up, not then allowed in the main bouldering area! No way was it adequate and it wouldn't have lasted him for another 3 years. Totally amateurish. That's 'Can I have my money back please' territory.

This year and it's £8.50 but they didn't mention not using the new bouldering (just as well because we visit during the day when there is about 2 other people in). But the increased cost isn't justified, it brought the wall up to standard but it was still expensive at £7.50. They actually charge more for kids to climb in Kendal than adults in London at Vaux Wall, it's probably the most expensive wall for kids in the UK (I don't know much about the South England walls, only been to a few.) Definitely a nice wall for leading and the staff are v pleasant and knowledgable.

So I think you're unfortunate to live in a less than child friendly part of the country, coincidentally also by far the smallest in terms of attendance at the BMC YCS Comps, in fact so small that the southern areas want those Ratho places re-allocated to them, where they have a lot more climbing kids (this year they already doubled the London allocation, they have 8 times, IIRC, the turnout of the NE).

Eden Rock though was a cut above when it opened and may change things. I suspect the problem is two-fold, the local climbers are still outdoor obsessed and the businesses chase the holiday pound not the local money (again Eden Rock managing to be sufficiently far North to escape some of that) plus the local money they're chasing is at the unexperienced end of the scale.

Kong is too small and cramped and low to be a good wall, and the bouldering tiny and full of 3 year olds, when I've been there, so if I were you I'd stick to Eden and huff every time I paid £8.50 at Kendal for leading.

In reply to winhill:
Hey, great info winhill

Yeah I see what you mean about Penrith. It basically feels like its someones private wall. A mate suggested that maybe they could charge a nominal fee to cover the belayer and any legal issues without having to charge the full up cost. Surely that's more reasonable than expecting full up payment to belay.

See now Kendal I have the other experience and this is what puzzles me sometimes with walls. I would say Kendal is the best value for money of all the walls. They have never had any issue with my daughter climbing in ANY of the areas. They saw her competing, saw her and her team mate climbing all the walls and basically let us have free reign. I get every penny worth out of Kendal and when we go it tends to be for 4-5hrs plus which makes it very worthwhile. Yes I maybe pay £15 (for both) or whatever (See how you don't pay attention so much to money when you think you get value) but we both get Bouldering, Lead climbing for her, auto belay for me, back to bouldering etc etc etc. I pay £11 for the 2 of us to get into Penrith and only she climbs.

You are right about the N & NE figures. We couldn't get enough for our regional acadamies for the BMC in our area so we ended up joining the Huddersfield, Harrogate, York region. Its been really good fun going to the new walls, seeing the classes of kids on steady production lines through the centres. Really is an eye opener. We have friends in Southampton and they have told us about the numbers down there. Seems to be an absolute booming industry and in time can only get bigger (Probably some climbers worst nightmare). They seem to be much more open to having a bit of a community based around the walls that helps each other out. Meets away from the walls etc to learn roped climbing (We have been invited too).

Eden rock is amazing. As I mentioned above, we have been touring a lot of centres over the last 12mths. There isn't ANY centre that comes even close to Eden Rock (Including Ratho) for bouldering. Stands to reason with the guys involved there being so good at it. We are extremely lucky to have it. They do seem to have a pretty good kids clubs, however the numbers just don't seem to be as big as the other centres we visited.

Yep, Eden rock for bouldering but we enjoy penrith/kendal too. Just need to swallow the costs unfortunately until I can learn to climb and then get us both outdoors.

Oh I forgot to mention that we haven't used the rock solid team as much as we probably should have. The guys seem to have a lot of things going on which we struggle to make but are probably the closest we have in our region to compete with the southerners.

In reply to Thelittlesthobo:


If the title of the thread does not reflect the thing that you want to discuss, them perhaps you should consider starting a new thread?

After all if you have a thread that's called "Is climbing a middle class sport/ activity?", guess what question people will keep on responding to, over and over...?

In reply to Andy Morley:

Thankfully Andy most people have managed to read the thread and taken from it that the jist was that I found climbing to be an expensive sport/past time. From that point I have been on a journey of discovery and found that climbing is not really any more expensive than other comparative sports that youngsters get involved in (I have given examples previously if you look back). I have then stayed out of any 'class' discussions and repeatedly apologised for even using the term in the title and other subsequent posts.

I really cant do anything other than suggest if you want to discuss 'class' then you start a thread of your own and invite the other hostile people who seem to get really agitated about the term to go and discuss it.

You will see on this thread the majority of input regarding costs etc seem to get reasonable and agreeable discussion.

In reply to Thelittlesthobo:

I really don't think climbing is expensive. Rock boots, £60, bouldering mat £70-80, put some petrol in a mate's car and away you go!

Compared with horse riding or sailing it's a snip, as several people have mentioned above! Compared with football which is the traditional sport of [insert euphemism of your choice] people, and which is your chosen alternative example, I'd say it's no more expensive from the figures you've supplied (which don't include kit). Leaving the more arcane and antiquated stuff aside, it's a fairly short and simple conversation if cost is your only preoccupation here.

In reply to Andy Morley:

That's fair comment Andy. Even comparing it with football surprised me. Take the 'Little Kickers' franchise for example. Costs per child are very similar and the actual value is way less than a climbing wall has to give considering the coach - climbers numbers will be much less and they have equipment and facilities to pay for. Its an argument I am in total agreement with you.

Went to the wall last night (3rd night on the bounce) and guess what. Full of kids Never seen so many there. Fantastic to see.