UKC

Hi first time on any forum,

Please forgive me if I’ve posted this in the wrong place. So I have been climbing for quite a few years now and am taking some friends down to Dorset next bank holiday. Now I have always lowered off as I was shown from the appropriate point. I have been reading some post on You Tube from our American bretheren and they are all ranting and raving that you must ab off rather than being lowered. I can’t see that any significant extra wear is going to take place to rings for one lower off per climb. Are these yanks just being well err over cautious. 

Any thoughts on this 

In reply to MattSW68:

They're called lower-offs. You lower off. 

In reply to MattSW68:

The ethic depends on the area, in the UK it's almost all lower off (I don't know of any sport crags in the UK where it is abseil off, however there is probably some weird crag  somewhere in the UK). Some crags in the US are abseil only.

If you are climbing in a group and people are going to be either top roping or multiple people leading I would suggest that you should place a couple of opposing quickdraws on the anchor bolts to limit the wear on the lower off.

In reply to MattSW68:

The American's voted in Trump, and you still believe what they say? 

Just lower off, but top rope on your gear.

In reply to MattSW68:

Do whatever you feel comfy with....there's always opinions on this forum as you'll see....some informed and some not! Enjoy your day!

In reply to scott titt:

always Top on my own gear, but yes they voted for a Trump, sorry typo trump. Should have realised.

 

In reply to Pedro50:

thats what I have always done, just wondered why the Elmers get so worked up about it.

 

In reply to MattSW68:

Possibly someone is thinking about the fact that there is less strain on the anchor when abseiling. Not really applicable to sports climbs with bomber bolts..

In reply to oldie:

The idea is to minimise wear.

A nice idea but an extra bit of faff. 

Lower off

In reply to MattSW68:

The only situation I can think of where this could be good is if climbing soft sandstone where the rope line is not clean and the rope is likely to saw into the rock if people repeatedly lower from the anchors.

In reply to MattSW68:

Many years ago I had a French guide book to the Annecy area and that recommended abbing rather than lowering.  This appeared to be the standard French procedure at the time, as it reduces the load, and hence the wear on the top fixed gear. We actually followed that advice for a while, but with the advent of modern climbing walls where lowering off is the norm we adopted that routine.

That guide book was interesting as it also split climbs into three distinct groups.

Sports climbs: Fully bolted

Adventurous climbs: Bolted belays, but sparcely bolted between belays.

Alpine climbs: Take them as you find them, probably just only old pegs.

John

In reply to MattSW68:

In sport climbing, generally get lowered by the belayer; abseil as an alternative when you don't want your rope running through the anchors under load - there are a number of possible reasons for this (none of which crop up particularly often). Or you might anticipate taking a while to descend for one reason or another, and let the belayer have a rest; or you might need the ropes slack under you to sort out a tangle or other problem; or maybe you want to remove a piece of loose rock which you spotted on the way up, and want the belayer well out of the way. Etc, etc .....

In reply to MattSW68:

Just remember when thinking of taking American climbing advice seriously that they call their trousers their pants.

In reply to MattSW68:

If multiple people are climbing, stick a quickdraw on each bolt (or a krab in the chain) and use those for the first ones, then the last person cleans and lowers off.  Keeps wear to a minimum while not overcomplicating the situation.

In reply to GrahamD:

And, more relevantly, climb on single rope but sometimes drag the dead weight of another rope up behind them so that they can abseil off.

In reply to MattSW68:

Its more faff and more dangerous to abseil rather than lower-off. In lowering off you are always tied on to the rope and being belayed. Remember to weight your rope when lowering prior to unclipping to check that you are properly tied on and being belayed. Always top rope through your own quick draws to save wear on the lower-offs - last person threads.

In reply to MattSW68:

Based on the Americans that I have climbed with I'd say that not many of them "get so worked up about it."

Have you climbed with many Americans or are you making a sweeping judgement based on something you saw on the internet?

In reply to timjones:

I’ve climbed with a few Americans in the states and we lowered off, this is why I posed the question. All of the people I’ve climbed with over the years have all used the same technique, climb up, set a top rope and the last man is lowered. A nice safe easy way to climb. I am guessing that that’s its a case of those who shout loudest are not always correct. I can see there point a little but feel it is almost mute. 

In reply to MattSW68:

Some years ago it was standard practice in the US to lower off sport routes rather than ab off. Abbing seems to have become the norm for some people due to concerns about wearing the anchors unnecessarily by abrasion. While I'm sympathetic to this goal, and would always seek to top-rope on our own gear whenever we can, or lower from our own gear when leaving the gear in place, I'm not convinced the reduced wear from not lowering while cleaning the clips merits the additional faff of abseiling. Also, the steeper the route, the harder it is to clean on ab, and when it gets to super-steep cave-type routes I can imagine it could be effectively impossible.

In reply to MattSW68:

A shouting mute? Hmm, tricky one, that.

In reply to scott titt:

I'm pretty sure that the proportion of US climbers who voted for Trump is even smaller than the proportion of British climbers who voted for Brexit.

 

In reply to MattSW68:

Abseiling rather than lowering used to be a bigger theme in the USA than it is nowadays, a few high-profile deaths and accidents from the confusion that is possible with two differing systems led to the realisation that only ever using one system would eliminate the problem. Since abseiling is slow, open to more failures and it is impossible to strip severely overhanging routes lowering from the fixed gear AND CONTRIBUTING TO IT´S REPLACEMENT has become the norm.

There is naturally still an old-guard vehemently preaching abseiling but they just get ignored nowadays.

In reply to scott titt:

Yeah, this says it all, except those of us who mourn for lost believability (and a lot more) want the record to continue to show that Trump lost the popular vote. 

But while you're all busy not believing, all the American ranting I've encountered (eg Mountain Project) seemed to me to be massively in favor of lowering off.  If there is a bunch of contrary US opinions, then it is more evidence that polarization in the US has spread well beyond the political and cultural spheres.

Like a whole lot of things folks get hot under the collar over, which way you choose to get back down really doesn't make much difference.  In areas that aren't well-maintained, the wear to quicklinks could be a consideration in favor of abbing.  The different loads to the anchors resulting from the two methods are surely not a realistic concern.  The main arguments I've heard against abbing are that the transition is a potential source of failures, and the possible misunderstanding between climber and belayer can, and has quite often, led to a climber being dropped.  So the anti-abbing voices are raised not so much about physics or engineering, but rather about minimizing human fallibility.

 

In reply to MattSW68:

It all depends on the local practice.  

I default to lowering off every single time unless the situation suggests that I should be abseiling off.  

If local norm is to abseil off then I'll respect the local custom and abseil off.