UKC

Hi all,

I'm getting back into outdoor climbing, after a brief foray as a Second on some classic Snowdonia outings (such as Flying Butress) about 10 years ago. I have a few questions that I can't seem to find the answers to in the Mountain Training Rock Climbing handbook, so was wondering if anyone would be able to help me out.

The questions concern climbing multi-pitch as a group of three with two half ropes:

1) When the leader climbs a pitch, and the two Seconds are at the stance below him, is it possible for both Seconds to belay the leader by each taking a half rope and belaying him at the same time? 

2) The handbook always talks about  the leader re-clipping the ropes through runners to protect the Seconds as they come up after him. I'm confused as to why this is necessary at all...how do the runners/gear protect the seconds in the event of a fall? Is it to stop them from swinging out a lot? The final second just removes all the gear as they ascend up anyway..?

Thanks for your help...I'm sure I'm being silly but just can't get my head around these, and would appreciate some insight.

1. Yes

2. Yes

Sounds like you are on the right track, have fun!

1) I guess that's possible. But the normally done thing is for one second to belay leaving the other with hands free to relax/eat/drink/take photos/untangle ropes and so on. 

2) Might be just referring to situations where the route line wanders around rather than going more or less straight up. Some judicious reclipping to reduce risks of a second taking a swinging fall. Mostly each second cleans the gear on their rope. 

Hi

right so point 1), i guess you could in theory do this but it sounds like a right faff. most people would just have one belayer whilst the 3rd person just chills out.

2) not sure what you mean by this. for the vast majority of straight up routes where you are climbing with half ropes the leader would protect the route normally and then bring each second up on a rope each. ether one at a time or both climbing with one slightly ahead of the other (depending on the route) each cleaning the gear on their respective rope.

with a group of 3 things get a bit weird on routes with significant traverses. but with some care it normally works fine. 

1) No. One person will belay you using both the ropes. Make sure your halves are triple rated / rated as singles 

2) The seconds will be protected by the fact you have made / tied into a belay suitable for holding the weight of all three climbers. If there are large traverses in the climb careful gear placement is necessary. If bringing up two people on two ropes it's worth being familiar with using guide mode on your belay device (like the Petzl Reverso or Black Diamond ATC guide. Other brands do exist!) The final second removes all the gear. 

It may be my misunderstanding but to be clear if you are using half ropes be aware that if both ropes are clipped into the same runner and your seconds fall at different rates the ropes can cut each other.

Without wishing to be some naysayer on the Internet it would be worth a bit of time with a guide, club leader or friend if you are unsure of any of these points. 

1. Yes it’s possible but messy. Much simpler if just one second belays the leader.

2. I think the handbook might mean that the first “second” to climb makes sure that runners that protect the second “second”  on traverses should be re-clipped (assuming the drag is acceptable to the second “ second”) When using this technique with novices I tell the first “second” which runners to re-clip.

Wow thanks for all the speedy replies. 

For point 1, yes I see what you all mean now. That does make a lot more sense. I was wondering if it was ever really done with both Seconds belaying at the same time as maybe an extra precaution (in case the lone belayer was hit by rock/passed out etc). 

For point 2, yes that now also makes sense. I think I was picturing the scenario in 'straight-up' situations, not traverses.

And yes Smythson I totally agree with you - I shall be getting a refresher course with a guide before venturing out again.

Many thanks everyone.

Why? Neither rope is going to take a leader fall on its own.

I totally agree.  However, insurance companies might not if the worst should happen.  

The key to having a good day out multi pitching with novices, especially when you don't have very deep experience, is to pick your routes very carefully. Avoid traverses and small belays - you want nice big ledges! Also, don't underestimate how hard those you're climbing with will find being out on real rock, facing exposure. Start as easy as possible and work slowly upward - e.g. start on a single pitch of diff with no bizarre moves, then do the same but two pitches, and only gradually work up. It's very easy for novices to get off route or struggle with new things, e.g. slabs with small holds, cracks or chimneys (especially if they don't have much brute strength). Everything gets a LOT more complex if you have to retreat, so brief your novices carefully and stay within everyone's comfort zone.

Hope you have a good time!

You have your answers; I'd just emphasize two things.

1. You absolutely do not need triple-rated ropes for the technique, and indeed folks have done it for years before there were triple-rated ropes.
2. Here in the US where not many climbers use half ropes, having each second belay the leader on one rope will provide a more reliable belay then having a single belayer struggling with the niceties of paying out one strand while taking the other one in.  The leader gets short-roped less often, and avoids having more slack in one strand than there should be because the belayer pumped out both strands when they should only have pumped out one.  This might apply in the UK as well if the seconds are novices, sport, or gym climbers and aren't used to half-rope technique

1. Given you are returning to the climbing, I'm guessing the seconds might not be highly experienced in handling double ropes and holding them if you fall. So your idea sounds excellent. I do it a lot 

Other points. Most people just use normal half ropes. Build the belay to hold a factor 2 fall, not to hold the weight of 3 climbers 

Yet insurance companies would be fine with the leader taking a FF1.5+ lead fall on an 8mm half, having just left a belay?

Presumably, that's absolutely standard practice and exactly what the rope is designed for? I can't imagine a second slipping off and imposing 20% (or less) of the load would be much of a concern to anyone. 

First apologies to the OP as this is a Starting Out thread, I don't want to detract from the many advantages of using double ropes when there is a single belayer (as is the normal). 

There is also a another potential safety advantage for the leader in having a different belayer for each rope. Unless the force of a fall is shared (ideally equally) between both ropes the braking force is apparently  substantially decreased by having a second "unused" rope in the hand. Thus in theory it would often be best to belay with one rope until the second rope is clipped, and indeed it is probably an advantage if the second rope is handled separately, as for a time it is likely to be that rope which takes the entire force of a leader fall. Indeed if all the protection was widely spaced the load would be unlikely to be equally shared between the two ropes at any stage, even after rope stretch.

Another question arising here. If the weakest member goes in the middle so doesn't have to wrestle with taking runners out but just reclips are there circumstances on a traverse where last man would belay from back (with slack) as well as leader taking main belay-to control a swing?

Maybe in an incredibly niche situation if the stars aligned. Mostly the person on the ground would be at too bad of an angle to help and with complicated communication would likely just get in the way.  

What insurance companies are we even talking about here?  In the UK we have the NHS if we get broken and mountain rescue is a voluntary service provided for free.  And I'm not sure what the relevance of e.g. BMC third party cover would be.

Life insurance at a push maybe?  Doubt they would care, bringing up a second on a single half rope is perfectly safe.

Book a day or two with a full member of the BMG (British Mountain Guides) or AMI (Association of Mountaineering Instructors) - you can't go wrong and will learn loads:

BMG - https://www.bmg.org.uk

AMI - https://www.mountain-training.org/membership/ami

Not sure if this question relates to my reply. How one protects a weaker middleman depends on the climb. For instance I have thrown slack across and down to give a backrope to a second when using a single rope (taking in one rope and simultaneously paying out the rope passed through a runner at the start of the traverse (in that instance that would involve leaving gear, but in a party of three the stronger last man could collect it with the middleman having clipped runners on the traverse to his trailing rope..... or perhaps not doing so if the leader had a suitably positioned stance above the traverse). As kylos8048 implies things are very situation dependent and everyone must know exactly what to do.

I suppose one way which might often work would be for the leader to untie from the most appropriate  rope which could be pulled back to the other two climbers. Last man can then give a backrope to the weaker middleman who clips runners appropriate to stopping himself swinging and to protecting the last man when its his turn. I've never done this myself.

Of course it would be better and simpler if, say, the leader led on a double rope and the last man gave a backrope and followed on a third rope (clipped to appropriate protection by the middleman). If the middleman is very weak then the climb should probably be avoided.

I've actually done this once. Middle climber was a lot weaker and we were on a fairly easy but exposed rising traverse with limited gear after the crux. They were already tied in to the trailing rope (climbing on singles) so it was easy to put them on belay from below as well, for extra confidence.

Be careful if you have 2 belayers as they will both need good directional anchors which could get really messy on a multi pitch. Best just have 1 person to belay.

Regardless of how many belayers, you should be placing runners to protect against seconds being cheesewired on the belay. In a teaching context, two belay is good practice.

A couple of folks are dismissing out of hand a few things I actually do quite often for work (I'm qualified as per the aforementioned links to AMI), so thought I would give my perspective.

Having two people belay is relatively normal and is suggested as a good technique when working with inexperienced/unknown belayers. Double the chance of someone catching a fall, belayers deal with one rope each so they having something to do/practice/keep them occupied/easier to deal with one rope not two.

One or both ropes clipped into pieces of gear will keep seconds in line with the climb and can stop a pendulum on a traverse. Sometimes I clip one runner to both ropes using two quickdraws, one for each second, to keep them in line, for their benefit not my protection. 

Back-belaying the middle climber on a traverse is easy to do. For the 3rd person it is exactly the same as belaying a leader except for the fact the middle person is unclipping the first rope and clipping the second rather than placing gear and clipping. This would stop anyone taking a massive pendulum if that was a consideration. It's also often used as a teaching technique and called climbing in series. 

Half ropes will work fine with a climber on each one, but I choose to use two full weight single ropes. It's easier to catch a fall on a chunky rope, plus they are going to be more abrasion resistant than a skinny half rope, should someone fall off repeatedly. 

Insurance

To put the insurance thing to bed. Insurance is a risk-analysis industry at the end of the day. No insurance company has specialists fighting against claims with specific activity experience. As such, it's crazy talk to suggest that any insurance company would question the use of equipment further than, "was the equipment used rated for the applied use at the time of the incident?". The answer for a half-rope, for a second climber, is "yes".

Belaying

Two people belaying is a great idea. We regularly climb in a group of 3 (sometimes 4 - trailing an additional single behind me. This is a right muddle on the ledges) and use the two climbers on half ropes as belays together so they both gain lead belaying experience. I then tend to just whip up whoever is on the single first as it tidies up the picture on the route for everyone quickly. It's a right laugh getting out with a group and allows myself a friend to drag along the girlfriends for some easy multi-pitch adventures where everyone goes home feeling like a climber.

Other Considerations

Points to note as you'd likely be the "lead" of the outing.

Briefing potential escapes

Try to find routes with walk-in/out and escape routes.

IF not simple routes then...

Check everyone can abseil, if it goes wrong they may need to. Also, it's fun to learn! Carry enough bits of cord to back up everyone's abseils (Slings for extensions too)

Further, if you're abseiling into a climbing area (common on sea cliffs) then ensure you have either covered how to climb out and leave a static in place if you're concerned

Not everyone can ascend a rope. It's well worth knowing how to set up some basic hauling systems if you're climbing with multiple weak members in a relatively committed area. 

Lengthy reply (Sorry!) but I found myself in your exact situation a couple of years ago, and if someone had told me all the above I would have prepared better and not learned it bit by bit and on some occasions in a more suitable location (i.e. not YouTube-ing something at the base of a route)

Yes but it would be unusual. It requires both seconds be fixed in a position to belay safely. Often it's easier to stash one away (still safely) off to the side, on a lower ledge, on a branch etc or with a bit of freedom of movement.

Not sure what you mean by the leader re-clipping. If the seconds climb one at a time the first one up can sometimes re-arrange how the last climber's rope is clipped so they get maximum protection where the route traverses or passes a roof.

Best go with someone who has some experience, climbing as a three is easy and fun, you'll figure it out pretty quickly but hands on learning with someone who knows the ropes is best.

edit: I see the thread wandered onto the topic of ropes. It's perfectly reasonable to use half ropes as described, or a couple of full ropes, or one full rope (or half) folded in half. Most British pitches are short and the 60m ropes we habitually carry far too long.

jk

There’s no particular reason you shouldn’t climb as a three on multi pitch routes. You’ll have to make up your mind how you’re going to do it.

Practice whatever you have in mind on a single pitch first. 
That way if anything doesn’t quite work out you won’t have complicated rescue scenarios to go through.