UKC

Why is the uk so far behind Europe when it comes to rock climbing!! Specifically When it comes to multi pitch climbing! Ok we don't have the alps but we do still have some spectacular mountains and cliffs. Our trad ethics mentality is just so backwards! And slow! It really takes the enjoyment out of some routes! Don't get me wrong there is a place for trad and I do use trad gear when doing some big mountain routes etc, but there is also a lot of potential for big multi pitch sport climbing. There are so many places that could be bolted, and it would make it world class! It's such a shame that there's this mentality of trad is the the true way and to do it any other way is cheating! It's really holding the uk climbing back! We need the next generation of climbers who are going out to places like chamonix and experiencing how enjoyable it is to climb multi pitch without all the unnecessary aggravation of trad gear, to stand up and push for more bolted routes in the uk! It really annoys me when I read a route disruption that says something along the lines of "HVS excellent climbing with plenty of exposure but very poorly protected" that is a prime example of something that should be bolted!!  There Is definitely space for both, if you want to climb it trad don't clip the bolt! Simples! 

Getting quick and efficient at protecting routes and building belays will serve you well when you head into the Mont Blanc Massif on the other side of Chamonix, or most of the other 'big' mountain terrain in the Alps. Trad doesn't have to be slow.

With regards to not clipping the bolts, don't be moronic. Have a good think and see if you can identify the flaw with that idea.

2/10.

2/10 is probably being generous.

It got 1 point starting credit, 2 points for spelling, then lost one for the unword at the end.

A self-describing word. I love it.

Courtesy of George Orwell.

yeah I agree with that, as I said there is a place for trad and I do practice the  discipline. I have done a  lot of climbs in the alps and the U.K. Where it's needed. But my point is that there is a lot more space for bolted routes in the uk ,  specially multipage. It's being held back,  it seems to be down to ethics. 

I'm not anti bolt, indeed these days I probably climb more sport than trad but the day we start bolting our mountain crags will be a very sad day indeed for UK climbing.  We are not behind Europe as far as trad climbing is concerned we have led the way for decades and for a while even showed the continent how to climb alpine. Many of our outstanding mountain routes would make mediocre, if not very poor sports routes.  Leave them alone.

Al

https://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/set.php?id=644

You've not finished this list and yet you want more?

The UK is not being held back by trad, I suspect you feel you are!

Which leads me to conclude: man up princess.

As a side argument,  where are these big multipitch cliffs you could bolt? I can do most routes in a oner with my 60s, sometimes need my 70s in the pass or at high tor for example.

1 pitch is not multipitch, unless you're soft and need to rest more often?

Cheddar is only 100m or so, wye is similar on the tallest bits. Some of the peak limestone is tall, and so is malham. Slate quarries are tall enough for multipitch.  Oh, hold on.......... They are all already bolted......

So where else is tall enough for a proper multipitch sport climb?

Sea cliffs erode and the bolts rot, so that's them out. Mountain crags, are erm up a mountain, hardly the convenient sport crag. If you're in for a nice walk in, you'll be up for trad too I'd suggest. Especially as most pitches are not actually hard either. Would you walk in for a limited grade range crag with sections of loose rock? 

Shame it's not April 1st, or youre that other dude who did just endlessly troll...... 

 I'm not saying we're behind when it comes to trad. there is lot of space for improvement when it comes to bolted routes in the uk. It doesn't have to be everywhere, but there is definitely a lot of routes that would be a lot better bolted. And if someone still wanted to climb it trad they can. 

I'm not knocking trad climbers or anyone who wants climb Just trad. It's each to their own. I do all disciplines, alpine, sport, trad, ice climb. I just feel the ethics mentality in the uk is holding us back when it comes to sport climbing, There's space for both. And yes up our mountains, There's plenty of good routes that could be bolted. And if they rot replace them? 

Please come clean about why you would want to do this?  The reason that we do not have as many bolted routes as in Europe is because most of our climbs were established long before bolts were even considered.  Most of the climbing in Europe tended to be Alpine and more trad like than sport like, this left millions of meters of untouched rock.  We should all respect the history of the game and that cuts across all disciplines.  Ice climbing became easier because of advances in technology but none of this effected the essence and fabric of the climb.  Indeed improvements in trad gear had a similar effect.

Your comment about still being able to climb a bolted route in trad style just displays your ignorance, lack of respect and self centered, goal oriented approach to climbing and is not worthy of a response.  It's a stupid remark.

Al

Sorry bud you’ve got it wrong, the rest of Europe are so far behind us when it comes to Trad climbing.  I speak to loads of people whenever I’m out and especially if there not British, when I ask them why they come to UK, the reply as always for the Trad which we all know is purest way.   Now I’m one for placing bolts where there is no protection but our mountains in general have gear placements available and the odd run out doesn’t mean sticking a bolt in, it means grow a pair. Now if our mountains were limestone like most of Europe with hardly any options for gear then I would agree with you but they’re not.   If you want speed climbing on bolts then I suggest you keep travelling to Europe for your multi-pitch climbing and leave our way well alone.

Please give specific examples of the good trad routes which require bolting, or would be improved by being bolted.

I suspect behind that no profile is either a troll, or Zimpara. 

Bolting sea cliffs and replacing the rotting bolts as an annual event? Surely even a troll has more respect for the stone bridge they sit under than this? Lets not forget that with bolting a route comes a level of responsibility to those who will follow on your gear... 

Im not saying their ahead with trad. A lot of Europe is also granite, with plenty of places to put gear but still bolted. "grow a pair" drop the ego, if you want to run it out with no gear that's your choice don't clip the bolt hard man. 

I disagree with you, there's definitely space for both. It's one track minded and backwards to not move forward, bolts are around now and they work well. It's this  mentality that's holding us back in the uk. I respect trad and all the people who  pioneered the way and I still use it, but we're stuck in that time and need to move on! To not track minded! 

I know cloven hooves are pretty good for soloing but I would have thought they're a handicap to either trad or bolts.

Fixed it for you.

Then it's a good job that you are in a very,very tiny minority.  As someone has already said name some routes that you think would be "improved" by bolting.  You might also explain what you mean by improved.

Al

I don't know why I'm bothering, but whilst he/she is at it, list the world class multipitch sport venues we have on our doorstep and who is going to pay for their 'development' and their maintainence ?

If you don't understand the difference between trad and trad with bolts ( just don't clip them) then you have too little knowledge to have a reasoned discussion. Listen, learn, gain experience and think about it. Or get back under the bridge!

The bmc? I'd pay a bit more towards it! And I'd personally put in a few bolts in myself. You can pass me the drill if you like? 

I've paid you the courtesy of not assuming that you are trolling could you please extend me the same and answer mine and GrahamD's  question.  Which routes would be improved and how?

Al

Adapt, overcome, and get bolting! Let's move forward and not get stuck in the mud! 

Feeling the need to bolt? Adapt, overcome, and get better! Lets move forward and not get stuck repeating the same "mud"!

Why don't we start by bolting routes that have a description like "poorly protected". Routes that have no gear placements or very few, and then if people still want to solo it they just don't clip the bolts?? That would be a good start and then move onto the multi pitch climbs in wales and Scotland. Maybe start by putting in bolted belays? 

Here is a better idea.  Get better, get bolder and if you don't want the danger don't climb the routes but leave them in their original state so that those with more skill and bottle can do them as originally intended.  What gives you the right to deprive them of that?  It's arrogance of the highest order. This "just ignore the bolts" usually comes from novices with limited experience of trad and no respect  for either the history or better climbers.  It simply does not cut it with experienced trad climbers whatever their ability.  Even the bolts being within sight is offensive.

Al

I'm just going for a stroll up to the Cromlech to bolt Left Wall, to give me a 6b warm up so I can finally tick Resurrection 6c+, heck I might even do Nightmayer so I stand a fighting chance at 8a!

Ps. I think UK climbing's doing just fine

And that's the mentality I'm talking about! It's holding things back!  I started out in trad and have done a fair amount of it, I then started doing alpine climbing, ice climbing and then I tried a bit of sport climbing. I still do all of the above and I have realised that there is a lot more space for sport climbing in the uk! Just because it started that way doesn't mean it has to stay that way! That sort of mentality stops progress! 

How would bolting a poorly protected HVS like you mention in your first post help progress anything.

We are still waiting for you to nominate even one multipitch route which, if bolted, would be an improvement and which would progress climbing in the UK. 

Let me get this right, cos I'm a bit thick,  as well as being a lardy punter with a predeliction for pies, and having very tiny balls so I'm often scared on climbs and might be comforted by bolts...

You want routes graded HVS and described as 'poorly protected' bolted. Yes?

These will be technically at the low end of the grade spectrum, agreed?

So you want the <relatively> easy routes at the bottom of each grade bolted then?

Sounds like you might also want your arse wiping and milk in your soup in case it's too hot.

Completely agree.

However I suppose at one time experienced climbers might have made much the same arguments about using excessive protection as they saw it: ie get better and bolder and leave the routes for those with the requisite skill and bottle. A well known climber wrote in the 50s or 60s that runners should not be used below severe. Usually routes have been made much safer by modern trad protection and thus are probably not climbed as originally intended and are attempted by those with less “skill and bottle”.  If transported back in time I‘d probably be laughed at for lacing up a V Diff.

Obviously the overriding point you mention is leaving the climb/rock in its original state.

If they’re not trolling I have a degree of sympathy with the OP being frustrated by staggering around with huge amounts of expensive trad gear, and possibly spending as much time placing protection as actually climbing. Hopefully they may eventually agree that a small country with relatively limited climbing opportunities needs appropriate ethics to maintain challenge and enjoyment.

This reply pretty much confirms 100% that you are just trolling, go bother somebody else.

again you have missed the point!! compared to France/Spain/Italy/Austria/Switzerland, well just about every European country bar Belgium and The Netherlands we have very little rock to climb on and we have to preserve that. 

Not forgetting Ireland, which funnily enough preserves even more strict trad ethics than we do in the UK

I'm trying to think of poorly protected HVS mountain routes I've climbed... One that springs to mind first is Grey Arete up above Cwm Idwal. Fantastic, but if it were bolted wouldn't be worth the walk in

Damn tooting! Walk-in? Carrying rope and draws? WTF? If I can't park at the bottom and there isn't a gondola back down from the top, it can stay unbolted as far as I'm concerned.

Frankly I kind of agree that the protection is always the thing that holds me back. I climb low E's but could definitely climb harder. I'm only stopped from getting a ground up of Indian Face by the fact that there's no autobelay in place. 

Come on people - make it happen! 

I counted 13 exclamation marks in this diatribe. Didn't your English teacher tell you they are to be avoided if you want to be taken seriously?

There's a few in my area:

Space Tourist (6b+) is most likely the best I've climbed.

Most of them if not all! 

Exactly! Let's move forward and not get stuck! Things have moved on! 

Uk climbing is way behind no matter how much you try to convince yourself! All The top climbers in the game now are all young and  European!  

You know I'm not trolling! Just except it! things need to move on with uk climbing. I'm just the one who's saying it as it is! 

What boy with any self respect listened to their pompous English teacher! This is coming from a working class English plumber who semi retired at 28!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 

Many Thanks, I'll give it a go. 

Wow! you have more time on your hands than Me!! 

Apart from your daft misunderstanding of trad climbing, most of your posts sound semi-hysterical, with almost every sentence - even when it's not an exclamation - having an exclamation mark. Calm down.

Not agreed! if you knew your history you would know that trad climbing originally only went up to HVS And originally intended for training climbing mountains. and why not bolt the lower grades for people who are just getting into the sport. 

Not agreed! if you knew your history you would know that trad climbing originally only went up to HVS And originally intended for training climbing mountains. and why not bolt the lower grades for people who are just getting into the sport. 

We have plenty that would benefit from being bolted. 

And their even more backwards that we are! And that stretches beyond the climbing world! 

Are you on drugs?

More likely on goats...

Trolling notwithstanding...

Somewhere in this confused, ego-soaked mess of a thread was mention of bolting unsafe belays. Whike it seems like most, if not all, of our reasonably accessible unquarried multipitch rock is better off staying as trad, a lot of trad belays take a lot of stick and/or just naturally deteriorate over time. Often this results in an experience out of line with that of the first ascensionists’ intention and of the route’s climbing in general. Pegs are often just a sticking plaster and can make the situation worse. Plus, I just don’t think that in these situations the whole “grow a pair” re-trolling is helpful. I can see knowing that a dodgy/notorious belay is bolted can help trad climbers improve by encouraging them to try harder routes they otherwise wouldn’t, or perhaps feel better taking a less experienced second up. I’d personally back (with cash) any wider scheme to improve our trad belays with bolts where appropriate. Even on sea cliffs - titanium glueins are a (pricier) thing. Many bolt types aren’t even shiny and blend in well, especially on a multipitch.

Yes this is threadjacking but it needed a change. And yes, I’m from Bristol...

Here's a selection for you from the UKC News section since June. 

3 Golds for GB in the Para Climbing:

https://www.ukclimbing.com/news/2018/09/three_golds_in_paraclimbing_world_c...

Hannah Slaney - World Youth Bouldering Champion 

https://www.ukclimbing.com/news/2018/08/hannah_slaney_-_world_youth_boulder...

Latok 1 North Ridge by British-Slovenian team

https://www.ukclimbing.com/news/2018/08/latok_i_north_ridge_line_by_livings...

5 British ascents recognised in the 2017 Piolet D'Or list

https://www.pioletsdor.net/index.php/en/home/2017-significant-ascents?utm_c...

8th Ascent since 1986 of The Indian Face by Angus Kille - Incidentally, all previous ascents have been from Brits. 

https://www.ukclimbing.com/news/2018/07/indian_face_e9_6c_by_angus_kille-71...

I tried to resist replying to this thread, but I find your ignorance towards British climbing pretty frightening.

Lets get this straight, in your considered opinion, every single multipitch route in the country would be improved by the presence of bolts ?  wow.  Ambitious, even for a troll.

This is a disgraceful thread to read. Ripping into this person for having an opinion, not reading his responses properly, and glossing over his points without any detailed responses, and shockingly hypocritical. It all boils down to "Nuh uh!"

Hitler had an opinion.  It just wasn't a universally popular one.

He doesn't have any serious points. He's suggested that the standards of British climbing would somehow be advanced and we would no longer be 'left behind' or the poor relations of our continental cousins, if we added bolts to low grade mountain trad routes to make them less scary and more accessible to the next generation of bimbly punters who don't have the stomach for building belays or the occasional runout. 

He is of course entitled to have and express that opinion, but he is historically myopic and ethically bereft. Some might think this is a bold, visionary suggestion, catapulting the dusty, crusty old UK trad scene into the 21st century.....but they'd be wrong. There's nothing futuristic about sanitising routes that have been climbed for DECADES by those up for the challenge and adventure of low-grade mountain routes. Words (almost) fail me.

Opinion noted! Personally, I don't find it disgraceful, and not particularly surprising. What it all boils down to is; if you (proverbially) paint such an obvious, large target on yourself, don't be surprised if you get (verbally) shot at. Not that it really matters, of course, it's just words on a forum ...... unless he actually goes ahead and starts placing bolts on trad routes without proper consultation, in which case he shouldn't be surprised if some people feel like shooting him for real.

So, is there anything wrong with the multipitch sport routes at Cheddar? A historically trad-oriented crag. Indeed, any successfully adopted and appreciated retrobolted line in the UK...?

Don't know. I'm not at all familiar with that part of the country, the local ethics, or how the consensus was reached to retrobolt those lines. If the stakeholders felt that was the way to go I can respect that. 

I'm not 'anti bolt': I clip them both in the UK and abroad, on sport crags and in the Alps. If there's a consensus in particular areas, for particular routes or crags, then fair enough. Some crags are sport, some are trad, and some have a sometimes awkward, sometimes successful combination of both. The OP however, as far as I can tell, has made no suggestions about particular routes or crags he'd like to see bolted, beyond saying there are 'plenty', so I can only respond to his general principal: wanting bolts in mountain routes to make them more accessible, under the pretext of pushing the standards of UK rock climbing for the next generation. An entirely retrograde idea in principal. 

edit: this argument has been had a million times. I suppose it'll always have to be had when someone pops up like the OP and says: why can't we bolt x, y or z. Dull, but I suppose necessary. "Why not put a bolt in Sunset Slab, 3PS, Elegy, Scoop Connection, The Swan, Smear Test.....etc etc. So many more people would be able to enjoy the delightful climbing...."  In fact didn't someone recently suggest putting bolts in the top of Stanage to save time setting up belays......FFS  Can't remember if it was a troll or serious.

Brilliant idea!

I think the best solution for the peak is to get rid of all the sheep, replace them with cattle and let the climbers all use belay steaks.

Once upon a time all the Peak was filled with Bison. If you needed a belay it was a simple matter to fire an arrow into one of the beasts. Instantly you had a half ton anchor. Then the white man came.  

No need for cattle these days neither, there's plenty of vegetarian / vegan steak options for belays. I get really pissed off with the makers of Quorn, they do this amazing peppered steak pasty, but it's so popular the shelf is cleared out of them almost every time I look, especially in Bristol. Luckily I have found an outlying Waitrose that's always got plenty. If ever your partners can't supply quality cruelty free + environmentally friendly belay steaks anymore, come climb with me.

Glad this thread is at last being treated with the seriousness it clearly deserves.

I'd suggest Highland cattle, they look pretty stable and seem to enjoy standing in one place for a long time doing nothing.

Hence the classic route name "A dream of broon coos".

You could lasso them with your sport rope? maybe if they had nose rings, then you could just clip in and thread like on any other sport route.

Clipping the nose rings of Highland cattle - now there's a challenging use for a clipstick. (Mountain Spirit, take note! )