UKC

Hi all,

New here so be go easy

So I started climbing indoors about 6 months ago after doing a course at my local climbing centre.

I could do 5.10b pretty much strait away. Correctly working on 5.11a, got one or two, couple of other routes should give in to me soon.

How realistic would it be for me to reach 5.11d, or maybe even 5.12a this year?

I climb indoors usually once a week, occasionally more. I’m 32 so not exactly young anymore, reasonably fit though not very athletic. I find my biggest problem seems to be stamina, I simply run out of steam 2/3 of the way up!

Should I try to put in some training between climbing days? I’ve been told at 6 months in it it best to avoid hang boards for a while still. Or should I simply just try to climb more? 

Cheers all

You should go to a proper gym and pick up heavy objects and put them down again for no readily apparent reason.  You aren't a climber.

Could probably climb a 5.11d/5.12a (or 7a in old money) in a year. Although I think you would have to aim for specific route and redpoint it (try it repeatedly) 

I would say, that while a meteoric rise through the grades is awesome, it comes with a high chance of injury. So I would include lots of prehab and antagonist training alongside your climbing. 

This is helpful how exactly?!

Well, first off, I wasn't trying to be helpful.  I'm not really in that kind of mood.  I was once.  It was back in the eighties when climbers used to have personalities and did what they did without the ludicrous obsession with grades that is so commonplace these days now that the hideous, insidious and poisonous social force of capital has distorted everything that climbing used to be about.

In your posting you mention nothing of beauty.  No mention of the Zen state of mind that comes from moving fluidly through and over difficult terrain.  Your talk about the numbers.  5.11d is a meaningless abstraction.  The reductive commodification of something that cannot be commodified. 

Also, and furthermore, what have you ever done on slate?

Ye gods and little fishes.  I sound like the bastard offspring of a threesome between Ron Jedhead, Donny Jawes and Wen Kilson.

Last time I climbed 'indoors' I felt quite sick.

Tatty, i know you're looking for advice and the Doc isn't providing it but i am rather enjoying his wry humour.

Eh? 5.10 Trad? you where climbing the equivalent of E2 from the off?

Yes, shame on TattyJJ for trying to better himself and using a convenient linear grading system to measure that improvement, shame!

You are, of course, welcome to your opinion, but try not to use your own personal bitterness to discourage newcomers who (I hope) almost certainly don't share it.

TattyJJ, if you are managing all the moves on routes but running out of steam 2/3rds of the way up then you need to look at your aerobic fitness. That doesn't mean going for a run, in climbing terms aerobic fitness is specifically talking about your forearms, their capillarisation and their ability to deal with lactic acid.
Try these two sessions, (you can do both in the same visit to the wall if you have enough skin):

1 on 1 off: Using a route that you could onsight (climb clean first time), climb it for 1 minute, then lower off and rest for 1 minute. Repeat 10 times, you should be pumped and peeling off the wall on the last reps.

8 on 8 off: Using a route that is very easy for you, climb up and down constantly for 8 minutes without getting very pumped. Rest for 8 minutes. Do this 3 times in total. This one shouldn't leave you feeling exhausted.

Also, and more importantly, you need to be climbing twice a week, minimum. Volume is key when starting out.

I do have to say, in defence of @DoctorYoghourt that the OP's post smacks of either viewing climbing as just another gym function, or it's a wind up! For someone who on their own admission only started climbing 6 months ago, to be SO obsessive about grade numbers does strike me as either err, obsessive, or plain odd. The OP should get outside and enjoy the rock, whether it's a classic mountain VDiff or a short VS on grit.

I've always been obsessed with grade numbers and still am, I certainly was when I had been climbing for 6 months so I guess I can relate to this chap. 
Different people take different things from climbing, for some it's about the beauty of the outdoors, for others it's about training for 6 months to reach the 'plus' on that next grade. Both are valid and it's always disappointing when one type of person derides the other for no good reason. 
It always seems to be a one way flow of traffic too...

Mr Yoghourt has been pretty active on the forum in the last day or so and I've yet to read anything positive from him, so i'll not be saying anything in his defence.

Firstly, awesome stuff. I'm glad you are enjoying it and it sounds as if you are climbing really well. Bit concerned about 32 not being young any more!

    Yes, to climbing more often, two or three times a week would be great if you can fit it in. There are plenty of on line resources that will help you with stamina, including videos on this site.

    Whether your target is realistic or not I cannot say as I don't know how you climb, your strengths and weaknesses. I suggest that if you really want to invest in improving then use the services of a great climbing coach or hang out with other climbers better than you.

For those that offers help, thank you.

For the rest, seriously, get a life!
Did it ever occur to you that just because someone doesn't do things your way doesn't mean they are doing it the wrong way...
If i choose to chase grads then that is my choice, if you don't like that it's really your own problem.

Christ, i've been on some clique forums in my time, but this is up there with the best of them! 

So you're not even countenancing getting out onto real rock?

I never said that, come summer I hope to get on real rock for the first time.

But even if I wasn’t, so what?

That’s not very nice

 yeah....because Redhead and Dawes wern’t interested in grades? The 70’s and 80’s was a pissing contest with the consequences of Russian roulette. Redhead taking ground falls in the persuit of new hard first ascents. I’m pretty sure a massive part of their motivation was to strut into llanberis as the big dawg not an aesthetic beauty of moving of rock  

to the OP, I would say don’t judge the whole forum by someone doing a jolly good attempt at humour. UKC is a great community and resource. 

If you’re serious about climbing, 9 out of 10 climbers by Dave MacLeod is pretty mandatory reading (very good for analysing your own approach)

and eric Horst has a book called “training for climbing” which has some good specific advice around actual drills 

My advice would be to forget about grades for now and plot to get out as much as possible in 2017 and achieve maximum mileage on UK rock. This will achieve more progress than focusing on (indoor?) grades.

Sounds cool, can I borrow your time machine?

Yeah great point. Best thing to do is get out and climb lots of different areas and styles, will do wonders for your technique. 

I thought a cool goal for 2018, rather than a specfic climb “x” grade would be to climb a route in every major area/rock type in the U.K. 

cornish sea cliff granite

culm on north Devon coast

Inland lime stone around West Country and the Wye 

portland/swanage

pembroke

southerb sandstone

slate

NW mountain routes

gritstone

lake district

various Scottish mountain rock types 

(I’ve probably missed loads but that’s all I can think off the top of my head) 

would make for a very cool summer/road trip. If you wanted to attach a grade could keep it straightforward like on-sight a classic 3 star VS in each area. Would give you a great insight for the climbing available as well as making you a better climber 

I'm slightly confused by the use of the US grading system - I guess from that that you only climb at one specific wall that uses that system (it certainly isn't usual in the UK - most walls use the French system).  From that I would suggest that its actually very difficult to know how you are progressing because it will be totally dependent on how one particular wall grades their routes.  It varies enormously.

You might want to take stock of where you are and try some other walls or even try climbing outside.  Portland is close to you.

Loving your work.  Bad Monday morning ?

You climb about once a week? Forget training, you need to climb more.

Your progress sounds pretty normal for a reasonably athletic male in his 30s.

I would try to go climbing twice a week and see how far that will take you. Maybe one session a week focusing on difficulty and the other on volume.

You will plateau at some grade level eventually anyway. Then start thinking about changing up your training.

Do agree that indoor grades don't mean much and vary wildly between gyms. Thought that Dr. Yoghourt s reply was pretty funny by the way.

Enjoy your climbing!

As nice an idea that is, between work, kids, cash flow, blah blah blah, at best I could probably achieve 2 or maybe 3.

Off topic, but this is the first time I can remember seeing US grades quoted in the context of UK indoor climbing. Is this something that people do now?

Don't listen to these grumpy old relics. Though most of it is tongue in cheek, and it is undoubtedly a useful and interesting resource, UKC is also full of your average troll.

As other have mentioned, I would seriously just recommend climbing more while being aware of correct technique. 2 sessions minimum, 3 sessions good, 4+ if your body/time can manage it. You will see rapid improvement in your climbing in your first year. Forget training until at least a year or two in as you will see far more benefit spending your time just climbing. Good luck!

Eh, I think that if you've only climbed indoors, then number grades are the only obvious barometer you have of how you're progressing. And if you've just fallen in love with climbing, it's not odd at all to want to feel that you're progressing and getting better at it.

Though of course climbing is full of us odd and obsessive people, and there's nothing wrong with that ...

12a is 7a/+ in UK/French grades. It'd be good going to hit that in a year from starting but some folk can and with the right approach you can stack the odds in your favour.

Get fit: Build stamina on the wall with lots and lots and lots of pretty easy traversing/bouldering without rests. It's low stress on your joints, a good warm up and it helps improve the time to burnout on route. Also improving CV fitness and reducing weight if that's an issue is generally is no bad thing, it plays into the next points.

Get efficient: Climb frequently. Learn to climb efficiently exploiting resting opportunities beyond the obvious, moving quickly and confidently through harder bits, taking the little shakes or favouring the more tired limbs on the easier bits, clip from low stress positions which typically requires some developed climbing hard above bolts.

Redpoint: Climbing anything and everything you're faced with efficiently first go requires a *lot* of experience which can't really be rushed unless you're a very fast learner with an innate excellent sense for it. Learning to climb a particular route efficiently is much easier though it is a skill in itself to be honed working your way up the grades from where you're at now to your target (and beyond).

Know when to quit: Go home before you get hurt and stay home when you're sore. You won't hit your goal with chronic injuries. Skip the hangboards, campussing etc, you don't need to be strong, you do need to be injury free.

Get help: Climb with someone/people who can help guide and motivate you toward your goal. It's achievable and lots of folk routinely climb at that level but if the only people you know are stuck on easier stuff there's a real mental *and* a physical hurdle to overcome.

Have fun: If it's not fun anymore do something else.

jk

Climb more to improve your technique.

Endurance is significantly easier to gain than strength, however at this stage in starting out, simply climbing more should be sufficient for the next 6 months as your body adapts to the pressures and strains.  The only exception to the above is to work your core like an absolute beast.

Watch those fingers.

Then zen like state mentioned by Yoghurt is simply another way of describing the method of staying relaxed, and keeping your heart rate down through breathing and mindfulness techniques.

Go pick up weights or do pullups, building muscle on the lower and upper arms, shoulders and upper back will help your climbing.

Honestly, if 5.12a is around 7a/7a+ then some climbers never get to this level. If you are talented and determined you might do, but it seems an unrealistic goal for a year.

Is this leading a decent length route or bouldering?

I suggest  that much depends on whether you are, to an onlooker's eye, climbing the routes or dragging them down towards you.  The latter would certainly explain why you are running out of steam, and the ability to climb cleanly and efficiently would normally be considered a necessary skill for  rapid progression through the grades.

You clearly have some incredible natural ability, if you could climb 5.10b as a novice. I've been climbing for about 10 years before I just about managed to climb 5.10b (still failing on 5.9's and 5.8's occasionally). I have no doubt that we'll be reading about you in climbing mags couple of years down the line. Keep at it, and ignore the negativists on here.

He's talking about indoor climbs I believe. I would also guess top rope as well? So looking at the rockfax grade conversion chart this is around 6a sport grade. So nothing exceptional I would think. I was climbing this shortly after starting as well but moving up grades is proving hard and time consuming.

7a in a year would be good!

I feel like i'm peeing on both yours and the OP's bonfire here a bit but starting out at 6a (5.10b) is not unusual, it's certainly not a guaranteed ticket to future climbing stardom!

In fact I would be willing to bet that a person's starting grade has almost no correlation to their potential ability.

Yes you are. Proud of yourself?

I'd be more proud (prouder?) if you were reading about me in climbing mags...

You're not far off (looking at your logbook)

If only that were true, but i'll not turn down a compliment, so thanks.

‘I thought a cool goal for 2018, rather than a specfic climb “x” grade would be to climb a route in every major area/rock type in the U.K. ‘

I love this goal! It’s so much more than aiming for a specific grade. This is about getting out there and enjoying it.

I’m going to steal this and it to my own goal of aiming for 365 logged routes for 2018 and mix up the rock types!

Happy Climbing

I can't remember a time when goals were ever about anything else but specific routes (that were at or near my upper limit, or even a bit harder ... but primarily about the route.)

Although my main reason for climbing is to be able to do long routes in the mountains, I can understand the competitiveness of grade chasing. 

I remember being the same when I started climbing. I was very proud of my quick progress through the grades in the first few months of climbing and the first 6c on top rope felt amazing. 

So, now to my advice... I started climbing when I was 26 and I am a rather short female (just to give you an idea of me).

Over the past years I realised how important it is to prevent injury, because this is the main this that is holding me back most of the time. Every time I get to the 7s I injure myself as I try too much too soon and my tendons don't like it. 

So, be nice to your body. Those fingers are not meant to be tortured like that. 

I agree with the others, try to climb at least twice a week and the best thing for stamina is climbing lots and lots of routes. If you're into bouldering, 4x4s are good, but again, watch the fingers. 

In the end it is up to each individual. Some people like to climb plastic, some like to clip bolts, some like the mountains. But most importantly: have fun

My experience is that grades get very hard, very fast, if you are pulling up a 6a but getting tired before the top, I would suspect you need to stop pulling your way up, and start getting into your technique,

For comparison I climb on average twice a week, climbed 6a in my first 6 months like yourself, but found every grade(6a+, 6b, 6b+) takes one year each, I strongly suspect if you tried to beat that curve by much at 32 you'd be injured very quickly,

It feels rewarding to feed our ego by ticking a hard (very subjective) grade, but is it worth the hours of monotonous training every week? I think it's better to enjoy the activity, adventures & friendships... but maybe that's why I'm such an average climber!

So much criticism and judgement without any actual knowkage of me and why I climb!

To those that offer something constructive and useful I thank you

Let’s clear a few things up...

I climb because I love it, my partner bought me a taster session for my birthday and was instantly hooked and booked a beginner course. Whenever new routes are set I almost always do them all, regardless of the grade, because I want to. But at the same time I love to challenge myself, and thus chase grades.

I used the USA grading system because when reading about climbing online i come across it MUCH more often than anything so just figured it was a more commonly used system. Where I climb does indeed use the French system and is what I normally follow. My bad if you don’t like it.

I climb top rope and lead about 50:50. In terms of where I am, can climb 6b/6b+ top rope, 6a+/6b lead. I love anything overhung, always go to those routes first. Slabs less so, but I like how it’s more technical and faviours skill over brute strength.

Anything else anyone wants to pick a hole in?

You seem to have brought out a lot of ‘grumpy old men’ - well done!

Just to annoy them more one could say they’d been ‘triggered’ and should now seek a safe space.

Some people seem to can't help but be 'triggered' as you so eloquently put it. Oddly enough it does seem to be the old men more often than not that get offended when people don't do things 'their way'...

Sorry, i'm just stirring the pot now

I've climbed with at least one person over the last few years who has got to around 7a fairly quickly on just one session a week (it took me years). The problem with some individuals here is that they give answers based purely on their own personal experience, thinking that because it took them, say, a year per grade to progress that it's applicable to everyone. Obviously it's not. Anyway, if you can top rope 6b+ you can almost certainly lead it, and from there it's not a huge jump to 7a.

Since you asked...

Don't even bother trying to justify yourself to the "climb a beautiful line in the outdoors for the joy of it" brigade. You'll only encourage them and don't need any more of that twaddle, it just clogs up a good discussion about grade chasing.

Yep you missed the bit where after your training montage your chiselled pecs cast a long shadow over the naysayers projects and Spiritual and Zen are the names of your recent 5.14a climbs.

I know what you're saying, and attempting the climbs i feel like i should be on the same level with lead and top rope. But it's the fear of falling that holds me back, almost always clip high, get nervous when i can't, take a rest when i don't really need to because the next move looks a bit tricky etc etc.

I have a feeling the next suggestion is going to be to practice falling...

I wouldn't worry too much about that for now, just lead as much as you can and after a while it will feel natural, then you can think about falling.

This isn't my personal experience, you might just get away with brute strength on an overhung 6b+ but there's no way you could do this on a 7a, it requires good technique as well.

The average punter I run into at my local wall (which includes me) can give a 6b+ a good shot but will never get up a 7a cleanly.

Stir away; this thread is pure gold.

Everyone has chased grades at one point, I did in the first flush of enthusiasm that I think you are experiencing now and it was bloody brilliant. I then had a long lay off and shied away from grade chasing because I didn’t want to be reminded of my former ability. Now I Boulder in a ‘gym’ and get a massive buzz every Tuesday.

And I get pissed off if I don’t progress.

Climbing is movement.

If you're scared of falling and keen to progress, get over it asap by whatever means. Redpointing worked best for me. If you can lead and be relaxed you'll not only get up harder routes, you'll also learn better technique more quickly. Why wait?

But for someone who's just started and has all those early relatively-easily-won gains to make, then 6b+ to 7a isn't a huge jump. 

I will, I know I need to. Part of it is I am yet to own my own rope and feel bad for putting someone else’s threw such torture.

Consenting adults will accept a bit of wear and tear.

*snigger*

Not thinking like that they won't. Most could though by making relatively small changes to what they do.

jk

Apologies if my comment about US grades came across as criticism. It certainly wasn't intended that way. Purely curiosity about a system I know little about.

...

...

Now, I'm going to get pedantic, more than half the Culm (and argueably some of the best bits, Vicarage, Lower Sharpnose...) is in Cornwall. This is a bit like suggesting Wilton is in Yorkshire or Stanage in Lancashire.

Practice falling didn't help me, the "Fake it til you make it" approach didn't change my mentality,

Reading the Rock Warriors way helped, then working moves on routes I couldn't climb helped further - falling off the same move multiple times above the clip, each time more attention was on the move and less was on falling;

That's Dr. Yoghourt, thank you.  My response to your posting was positively amusing.  For me, at least.  Being so new to climbing, you've missed out on all the good bits, and I feel sorry for that.  But look, nothing I can say will change anyone's mind.  It's just a blinking internet forum, after all.  D'you know, that back in the dark ages - even before the internet - there will still some climbers and no climbing walls?  We used to start climbing outdoors.  How strange does that seem?

And why would you say anything in my defence?

Whaat?  Never ever had one of those.

Quite so.  I'm simply not qualified to offer advice on climbing indoors, since I've done so little of it.  But I have seen what it does to climbing in general and to climbers in particular.  And I don't like it.

To be frank, it seems to me that comparing climbing indoors to getting out into nature and climbing on rock, from the ground up, with little knowledge of what lies ahead and placing your own gear and assessing the risks as you go is not entirely unlike comparing the viewing of group sex on the internet whilst exerting yourself slightly to an orgiastic night at the swinger's club that needs a mop and bucket to clean down.

But don't mind me.  I resent this 'grumpy old man' slur, however.  I'm neither grumpy nor old.  But I've witnessed the social force of capital grasping something which used to be an anarchic, meaningless game played by misfits and oddballs - and was richer for that - and watched it get turned into a commodity.  Safe, sanitised and something that you can measure on your fitbit.  Whatever that is.

Maybe the OP is really good, or maybe they go up a soft 6b+ on top rope with some dangling around.

I'm just saying, at our local wall not many people can climb 7a (cleanly) and most have many years of experience.

How he climbed it makes no difference as we're just assuming a like for like comparison. For example a three grade step onsight, or three grade step worked, or three grade step with the same degree of dogging is still the three grade step and for someone early on that's not a big jump. To expand on that, think of it this way, in 12 months, for someone newish to climbing, you can get a one grade (one + increment) by improvement in technique. You can get another grade by improving strength and endurance, and another by losing some weight (on the basis that most of the population is overweight). So three grades, that's 6b+ to 7a. No big deal. 

As for what you see at the local wall, that doesn't mean much anyway, as most people just go for a few hours fun and aren't too bothered about improving -- and there's nothing wrong with that.

My point wasn't to say it's impossible, but it maybe not realistic for most people.

Going from 4 to 5c, which by that measure you would count as 5 grades would be quite realistic for any new climber. The grades aren't linear in this way.

I'd be happy to be proven wrong, but the point was the OP shouldn't feel bad if they can't climb 7a after 1.5 years as a lot of people never hit 7a.

Look, the context is that this chap has just started climbing and can get up 6b+ and wants to know if 7a is realistic within a year (although I think this was originally expressed as US grades). My posts are made within that context, that's to say the grade increments I'm talking about are in the high sixes not fours and fives. The fact it's not realistic for most people is neither here nor there because we're talking specifically about this individual who appears to have some natural disposition as a climber (as some people do). Furthermore, I don't believe I stated, or implied, it was a foregone conclusion he would get to 7a within a year, I was just indicating it may be possible. 

I started climbing in May 2017 and my brother not long after in August. He was immediately better than me leading 6a on his second time at the wall, the week after he lead a 6b, he now leads 6b-6c+ on a weekly basis, and is very close to cleaning a 7a.

We climb at least 3 times a week, encompassing trad, sport and bouldering,this helps, but his number one attribute is that he is not scared of falling, whereas i am (a bit)

The one thing i have noticed that is improving my lead climbing, is bouldering, concentrating on doing moves i would never attempt on lead. My bouldering grades suggest should be able to lead around 7a.

If you are relatively fit, then the running out of steam issue is most probably technique, i find bouldering great for this.

Come on guys, i thought this had been put to bed ages ago...

Ah, the real proof that you're new to this. *g* Welcome to the British climbing community, where threads NEVER DIE, and debates that began in the 1970s are still going on ...

....and I think its definitely E1

No, definitive E0!

It seems like you're going strong. Enjoy it! Climbing's great - and part of that is its variety and how much there is to learn.

Most people find they progress very quickly at the start, then hit a plateau. With strong, young men, they usually find they progress quickly on routes with big holds, whilst other "technical" routes throw them off.

Finger strength develops quite slowly, so you might struggle on crimpy routes for a while. Tip: be patient, and don't overdo it or you'll probably learn the hard way about finger injuries.

Footwork takes experience, and you'll find this is crucial to slabby climbs (few of these in the gym). When you go outside, you'll really have to get to work on this.

Balance and body position is also hard to develop a deep understanding of quickly, but is vital as the holds get smaller, routes get steeper, and as you work up the grades to routes that involve managing moving through moments of imbalance.

To climb 7a/5.11d or <V5 boulder problems, you'll have to master these three things, which do involve time and experience, as well as a bit of help from others. How much time, I can't guess. For me, it's taken 4 years to begin really getting somewhere with these things inside - and I'm still lagging far behind that outside. For friends, it's been quicker. I know someone who was a keen skateboarder and began climbing E1 trad within 3 months of starting to lead, quickly progressing up to E4. For you, it might take a year or a lifetime.

Apart from enjoying yourself and avoiding injury, my top tip for fast progression would be to climb with people are better than you ...and perhaps also to realise that expensive climbing shoes can't replace skill (something it took me awhile to understand).