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I can't recall this being discussed recently, except in relation to F&M. It seems that the Snowdonia Parks Authority has put out a strategy document which will declare every road in the park a "clearway" and close all linear parking (ie the laybys in the Ogwen and Llanberis valleys). The idea is to funnel all car parking into the "gateway towns" and then to force the use of public transport to drop off points "at the most popular" locations in the valleys.
A consulative letter has been out since, I think, August. Other letters dated November have promised that the full text of the Strategy Document will be available on various Park and Council web sites. So far they're not. The cut-off date for comments is 8th Feb 2002, so it looks as if this is pretty much a stitch-up to limit the amount of comment which can be made in the time left.
There is a critique of the strategy document at:
http://www.snowdonia2002.fsnet.co.uk/English/group_freedom_to_choose.htm
plus copies of one of the covering letters and a (very large) pdf of a scanned hard copy of the SD put there by the site operator to counter the fact that none of the official bodies have yet uploaded this document.
There's been a bit of desultory comment on uk.rec.walking about this, and, unless I've missed it, nothing here. Are we about to sleep-walk into having access to some parts of Snowdonia severely curtailed in the local authorities' drive to force people to spend money in the gateway towns, and to bus them into a few selected "honey pot" areas, probably at inconvenient times?
A consulative letter has been out since, I think, August. Other letters dated November have promised that the full text of the Strategy Document will be available on various Park and Council web sites. So far they're not. The cut-off date for comments is 8th Feb 2002, so it looks as if this is pretty much a stitch-up to limit the amount of comment which can be made in the time left.
There is a critique of the strategy document at:
http://www.snowdonia2002.fsnet.co.uk/English/group_freedom_to_choose.htm
plus copies of one of the covering letters and a (very large) pdf of a scanned hard copy of the SD put there by the site operator to counter the fact that none of the official bodies have yet uploaded this document.
There's been a bit of desultory comment on uk.rec.walking about this, and, unless I've missed it, nothing here. Are we about to sleep-walk into having access to some parts of Snowdonia severely curtailed in the local authorities' drive to force people to spend money in the gateway towns, and to bus them into a few selected "honey pot" areas, probably at inconvenient times?
In reply to Rob Naylor:
I thought this was first aired about two or three years ago, and then shelved?
G
I thought this was first aired about two or three years ago, and then shelved?
G
In reply to Rob Naylor: Sounds like a nightmare...last time I was on Snowdon in November the car park at Pen-y-pass was full early in the morning so people were parking all along the roadsat the bottom of the pass (not Llanberis side).
So is this the thing that they want to curtail?
If so then they'd better pull their finger out wrt parking and public transport.
So is this the thing that they want to curtail?
If so then they'd better pull their finger out wrt parking and public transport.
In reply to Rob Naylor:
it would certainly put the kybosch on it for unaffluent families like us as the combined cost of car travel, parking and bus would be the end. There are already no go areas in the Lakes for those of us who live locally, have the water taken out of us by the likes of NorthWest Water and then get charged excessive parking fees for hill access and are not on incomes to afford tourist parking fees
(Thirlmere NE end Helvellyn carpark being one! - I notice the carparks near the lake are not charged so it is a tax for hill use, also after 4 hours the fee is an all day fee so it's not feasible for families to use the shorter stay options)
BTW we do pay for National Trust membership and use their carparks (as it is a fairly cheap up front option) but this new phenomenon is looking too pricey
it would certainly put the kybosch on it for unaffluent families like us as the combined cost of car travel, parking and bus would be the end. There are already no go areas in the Lakes for those of us who live locally, have the water taken out of us by the likes of NorthWest Water and then get charged excessive parking fees for hill access and are not on incomes to afford tourist parking fees
(Thirlmere NE end Helvellyn carpark being one! - I notice the carparks near the lake are not charged so it is a tax for hill use, also after 4 hours the fee is an all day fee so it's not feasible for families to use the shorter stay options)
BTW we do pay for National Trust membership and use their carparks (as it is a fairly cheap up front option) but this new phenomenon is looking too pricey
In reply to MJH:
Just looked at the BMC site. All the bloody meetings to discuss this are being held in Snowdonia.
I hope to f**k all the local businesses realise just what a downturn in visitor numbers will do for their turnovers, and tell the council to stick it up their a**e.
Christ, I can't remember the number of times I've come off the hill much later than planned. To find out I'd missed the last bus really would p**s me off.
G
Just looked at the BMC site. All the bloody meetings to discuss this are being held in Snowdonia.
I hope to f**k all the local businesses realise just what a downturn in visitor numbers will do for their turnovers, and tell the council to stick it up their a**e.
Christ, I can't remember the number of times I've come off the hill much later than planned. To find out I'd missed the last bus really would p**s me off.
G
In reply to Rob Naylor:
If this is true then it has serious implications, not only for us climbers and walkers, but I would imagine for the whole outdoor tourist trade in Wales. A) A lot of people will not want to drive past their chosen venue, find a parking space in, the now, over crowded town car park, wait for a bus to take them back out and then hope that they don't miss the last one back. B)Places like Capel Curig are going to miss out on a lot of passing trade as it will be easier to simply drive to the nearest bus venue. Also campsites further from the chosen area will be ignored infavour of sites that are either near the town or where one proposes climbing/walking.
Is there anyone we should be voicing our protests to?
If this is true then it has serious implications, not only for us climbers and walkers, but I would imagine for the whole outdoor tourist trade in Wales. A) A lot of people will not want to drive past their chosen venue, find a parking space in, the now, over crowded town car park, wait for a bus to take them back out and then hope that they don't miss the last one back. B)Places like Capel Curig are going to miss out on a lot of passing trade as it will be easier to simply drive to the nearest bus venue. Also campsites further from the chosen area will be ignored infavour of sites that are either near the town or where one proposes climbing/walking.
Is there anyone we should be voicing our protests to?
In reply to Duncan Bourne:
just vote with your feet. - let's have lots of cheap trips organised to European places instead, or Scotland
just vote with your feet. - let's have lots of cheap trips organised to European places instead, or Scotland
In reply to MJH:
Not just that, but parking in the actual laybays, such as that at the bottom of Dinas Cromlech, will, AFAICS, be banned.
I can't see it doing anything other than lowering visitor numbers. I've come off the hill several times later than planned, at least a couple of which would have been after any likely "last bus" time. I also like starting early sometimes, likely before first bus. If this happens, my 8 or so visite per year to Snowdonia'll likely be diverted to the Lakes and Cornwall.
> (In reply to Rob Naylor) Sounds like a nightmare...last time I was on Snowdon in November the car park at Pen-y-pass was full early in the morning so people were parking all along the roadsat the bottom of the pass (not Llanberis side).
>
> So is this the thing that they want to curtail?
>
> So is this the thing that they want to curtail?
Not just that, but parking in the actual laybays, such as that at the bottom of Dinas Cromlech, will, AFAICS, be banned.
I can't see it doing anything other than lowering visitor numbers. I've come off the hill several times later than planned, at least a couple of which would have been after any likely "last bus" time. I also like starting early sometimes, likely before first bus. If this happens, my 8 or so visite per year to Snowdonia'll likely be diverted to the Lakes and Cornwall.
In reply to Rob Naylor and Graham: Exactly right about buses....inevitably the first bus won't be early enough and the last one won't be late enough...can't have the poor bus drivers working excessive hours!
Sounds like a recipe for disaster and as Rob says I just hope that the locals realise this and voice their objections.
Sounds like a recipe for disaster and as Rob says I just hope that the locals realise this and voice their objections.
In reply to Rob Naylor :
Sooner we tackle unrestricted car use - particularly in national parks - the better. I am definitely in favour of these proposals as a start. The road down to Langdale is also in desperate need of serious traffic restrictions.
Last time I was in Zermatt the car restrictions had not caused an economic meltdown, but that could have changed of course.
Sooner we tackle unrestricted car use - particularly in national parks - the better. I am definitely in favour of these proposals as a start. The road down to Langdale is also in desperate need of serious traffic restrictions.
Last time I was in Zermatt the car restrictions had not caused an economic meltdown, but that could have changed of course.
In reply to Ian Smith: No one objects to schemes like this if there is a reasonable alternative ie a decent public transport system that is not too expensive, reliable and runs at times suitable for climbers/walkers etc.
Unfortunately in most schemes this isn't the case...they are often ill-thought through, perhaps this is just specific to this country.
Unfortunately in most schemes this isn't the case...they are often ill-thought through, perhaps this is just specific to this country.
In reply to Rob Naylor:
Actually, from what I can tell, it looks like they're planning to close all the parking along the A5 in the Ogwen Valley, too? (I'm sure that'll benefit the farmer who runs one of the campsites there..... he already does quite a nice trade in day parking when the road's full!).
It's the lack of buses that annoys me...... I can't remember the times exactly, but when they closed off the PyP car park in foot and mouth, the first bus was something like 9am, and the last at 5 or 6. Not terribly useful (and apparently they were pretty unreliable, too). I don't expect to be able to park at the top of PyP at lunchtime on a Bank Holiday, but it'd annoy be a lot if I couldn't abandon the car there at 5am......
Actually, from what I can tell, it looks like they're planning to close all the parking along the A5 in the Ogwen Valley, too? (I'm sure that'll benefit the farmer who runs one of the campsites there..... he already does quite a nice trade in day parking when the road's full!).
It's the lack of buses that annoys me...... I can't remember the times exactly, but when they closed off the PyP car park in foot and mouth, the first bus was something like 9am, and the last at 5 or 6. Not terribly useful (and apparently they were pretty unreliable, too). I don't expect to be able to park at the top of PyP at lunchtime on a Bank Holiday, but it'd annoy be a lot if I couldn't abandon the car there at 5am......
In reply to Carolyn:
I think we'll soon be in a situation where families with kids ability to reach the mountains will depend on their ability to pay
In cumbria the fells are a local amenity too.
I think we'll soon be in a situation where families with kids ability to reach the mountains will depend on their ability to pay
In cumbria the fells are a local amenity too.
In reply to Carolyn: I went up Snowdon from Pen-y-Pass when F+M restrictions were first lifted. Drove from Manchester, parked at Betws-Y-Coed train station (free) and got the first bus (0815) from outside the Glen Aber Hotel. The bus was spacious and there was easily enough room for kit. Took about 25 minutes to get to Pen-Y-Pass.
Did the horseshoe walk and then jumped back on the bus (running every half hour) at 3pm. Back it Betws for 3.30.
Cost = £1.00 return each.
If you ask me, more power to their elbow.
Did the horseshoe walk and then jumped back on the bus (running every half hour) at 3pm. Back it Betws for 3.30.
Cost = £1.00 return each.
If you ask me, more power to their elbow.
In reply to michaelw:
I do think it's a rather mis-guided assumption that forcing us to park in ByC or Llanberis will encourage us to spend more money in the area...... once I've paid for parking and the bus, I don't think I'm more likely to go to the tea shop rather than get out my flask......
Of course, what'd do most for me spending money in the area is a pub within walking distance of the campsites in the Ogwen Valley!
Are they still talking of trying to stop the parking in Borrowdale and stick a bus along there, too?
I do think it's a rather mis-guided assumption that forcing us to park in ByC or Llanberis will encourage us to spend more money in the area...... once I've paid for parking and the bus, I don't think I'm more likely to go to the tea shop rather than get out my flask......
Of course, what'd do most for me spending money in the area is a pub within walking distance of the campsites in the Ogwen Valley!
Are they still talking of trying to stop the parking in Borrowdale and stick a bus along there, too?
In reply to michaelw: The eastern Lakes is just a mess...I mean talk about miserable experience at the weekend and its not just Langdale that's the problem its the sheer volume of traffic through Windermere and Ambleside.
Personally I'm not sure what the answer is...I dislike the idea of restricting people, but without serious money into roads/public transport I'm not sure what can be done.
Having said that public transport isn't too bad in that area...just slow.
Personally I'm not sure what the answer is...I dislike the idea of restricting people, but without serious money into roads/public transport I'm not sure what can be done.
Having said that public transport isn't too bad in that area...just slow.
In reply to Ian Smith:
But surely this needs to be a bit better thought-out then this. You don't seriously think that banning parking on the A5 in Ogwen is going to make the slightest difference to the amount of traffic thundering past Tryfan? I'm all for concentrating all but the most determined in honeypot areas, but surely that's exactly what Ogwen is?
Given that the laybys already exist, it just seems potty to me to close them. As it happens, I'll just be able to park at Glan Dena, but it's nice to be able to drive down the road to the Milestone for a bit of bouldering if the evening turns out nice.
But surely this needs to be a bit better thought-out then this. You don't seriously think that banning parking on the A5 in Ogwen is going to make the slightest difference to the amount of traffic thundering past Tryfan? I'm all for concentrating all but the most determined in honeypot areas, but surely that's exactly what Ogwen is?
Given that the laybys already exist, it just seems potty to me to close them. As it happens, I'll just be able to park at Glan Dena, but it's nice to be able to drive down the road to the Milestone for a bit of bouldering if the evening turns out nice.
In reply to Dave Garnett: By extension of course this will also prevent the use of the best almost free camping area in the Pass, next to the laybys.
In reply to Carolyn: I agree that banning parking in the Ogwen valley (or the Pass) is a very bad idea and will inevitably discourage visitors and threaten the stability of the local economy. However, your passing swipe at the farmer is uncalled for. There is a lot of pressure for farmers to reduce sheep numbers (quite rightly too)/ take early retirement/ diversify into other profit making ventures. Surely we should praise any farmers who are forward thinking enough to find a way of fending for themselves without the much critiicised subsidies they recieve? If they can find another way of making a living (be it a carpark/ campsite/ accommodation facility...whatever), then fair play to them.
I went to the 'Green Key' (Park and Ride)consultancy meeting at Plas Y Brenin on Monday night. Along with many local climbers and outdoor enthusiasts, the Capel Curig Community Council turned out in force and the scheme representatives (Peter Ogden, Dafydd Iwan) were told in no uncertain terms that there was no local support for this ridiculous project. I think they were quite surprised at the strength of the opposition. Dates of the other 6 meetings can be found in the news section of Climber magazine. Alternatively check out the website that Rob Naylor mentions for dates and all the relevant documents and critiques. I will be going to the Llanberis meeting at the Vic next Wednesday.
Dave Turnball from the BMC was present at the Capel meeting; I suggest you contact him or Clare Bond with your views.
My feeling is that the drive for high profile objective 1 funded schemes is blinding the common sense of our political representatives. The Capel Curig Community Council made many sensible suggestions for change and improvements to local facilities. Unfortunately they don't cost millions of pounds, they won't attract much media attention, and thus ultimately they will be ignored in favour of this disastrous scheme.
All of this rustling of paper is costing money. So far about £100,000 and at the meeting it was revealed that a further £75,000 contract had just been given to a firm of consultants from Cardiff to produce yet another spurious discussion document.
Words fail me,
Cheers, Simon.
I went to the 'Green Key' (Park and Ride)consultancy meeting at Plas Y Brenin on Monday night. Along with many local climbers and outdoor enthusiasts, the Capel Curig Community Council turned out in force and the scheme representatives (Peter Ogden, Dafydd Iwan) were told in no uncertain terms that there was no local support for this ridiculous project. I think they were quite surprised at the strength of the opposition. Dates of the other 6 meetings can be found in the news section of Climber magazine. Alternatively check out the website that Rob Naylor mentions for dates and all the relevant documents and critiques. I will be going to the Llanberis meeting at the Vic next Wednesday.
Dave Turnball from the BMC was present at the Capel meeting; I suggest you contact him or Clare Bond with your views.
My feeling is that the drive for high profile objective 1 funded schemes is blinding the common sense of our political representatives. The Capel Curig Community Council made many sensible suggestions for change and improvements to local facilities. Unfortunately they don't cost millions of pounds, they won't attract much media attention, and thus ultimately they will be ignored in favour of this disastrous scheme.
All of this rustling of paper is costing money. So far about £100,000 and at the meeting it was revealed that a further £75,000 contract had just been given to a firm of consultants from Cardiff to produce yet another spurious discussion document.
Words fail me,
Cheers, Simon.
In reply to Rob Naylor:
Presumably there is an address for letters of objection (or, of course support). Anyone care to post that?
In fact, it wouldn't be a bad idea for the site to have a piece carrying this address and the link above - Al, Charles?
Presumably there is an address for letters of objection (or, of course support). Anyone care to post that?
In fact, it wouldn't be a bad idea for the site to have a piece carrying this address and the link above - Al, Charles?
In reply to Ian Smith:
Have you actually looked at the Strategy Doc, then? And at the response to it by the "Freedom to Choose" group?
As far as I can see, "reducing car use" is a convenient cloak in *these* proposals for forcibly funnelling visitors into places where they can be more easily stripped of cash.
The building of large car parks at the "gateway" towns hardly seems likely to discourage car use...in fact the strategy document almost spells out that the main "strategy" here is to encourage more shopping in these towns while people are waiting for what promises to be infrequent and expensive public transport to the "more popular location" of their choice.
How do I get to the "less popular" locations?...ie, ones where the bus *doesn't* stop? Sounds as if I catch the 0900 (first)bus, arriving at the main "honey pot" stop at, say. 0945, followed by a 45 min walk-in to the point I'd previously have parked. It's now 1030 in winter, with a 2 hour walk in to the climb of my choice. Start at 1230. Finish the climb at 14.30, but no time to finish off with a ridge walk...fast descent of the climb to reverse the 2 hour walk in, arriving at previous car parking spot 1700. Another 45 min walk to the bus pick up, to find that the last bus in winter left at 1730.
Yeah, great.
As the "Freedom" response points out, the actual car use in the main Snowdonia valleys is *rarely* so huge as to cause a public nuisance or danger. The buses I see there tend to be polluting horrors...how many cars would it take to output the same pollution as one of these buses?
I might be persuaded if I thought there was any chance that the car parks would be reasonably proced, and the buses would be frequent, cheap and flexible as to where they stopped. But this is Britain! Any scheme will be as half-arsed as almost every single public endeavour in this country.
I say again...the strategy here *isn't* really to reduce cars, but to maximise tourist income in the gateway towns. It'll backfire on them in spades if they run with it. Our club probably spends 400 person-nights a year in Snowdonia. Knowing the players as I do, if you take away their freedom to decide when/where they're climbing or walking, and the possibility to make short-notice changes to plans, that figure'll likely drop below 100.
> (In reply to Rob Naylor )
> Sooner we tackle unrestricted car use - particularly in national parks - the better. I am definitely in favour of these proposals as a start.
> Sooner we tackle unrestricted car use - particularly in national parks - the better. I am definitely in favour of these proposals as a start.
Have you actually looked at the Strategy Doc, then? And at the response to it by the "Freedom to Choose" group?
As far as I can see, "reducing car use" is a convenient cloak in *these* proposals for forcibly funnelling visitors into places where they can be more easily stripped of cash.
The building of large car parks at the "gateway" towns hardly seems likely to discourage car use...in fact the strategy document almost spells out that the main "strategy" here is to encourage more shopping in these towns while people are waiting for what promises to be infrequent and expensive public transport to the "more popular location" of their choice.
How do I get to the "less popular" locations?...ie, ones where the bus *doesn't* stop? Sounds as if I catch the 0900 (first)bus, arriving at the main "honey pot" stop at, say. 0945, followed by a 45 min walk-in to the point I'd previously have parked. It's now 1030 in winter, with a 2 hour walk in to the climb of my choice. Start at 1230. Finish the climb at 14.30, but no time to finish off with a ridge walk...fast descent of the climb to reverse the 2 hour walk in, arriving at previous car parking spot 1700. Another 45 min walk to the bus pick up, to find that the last bus in winter left at 1730.
Yeah, great.
As the "Freedom" response points out, the actual car use in the main Snowdonia valleys is *rarely* so huge as to cause a public nuisance or danger. The buses I see there tend to be polluting horrors...how many cars would it take to output the same pollution as one of these buses?
I might be persuaded if I thought there was any chance that the car parks would be reasonably proced, and the buses would be frequent, cheap and flexible as to where they stopped. But this is Britain! Any scheme will be as half-arsed as almost every single public endeavour in this country.
I say again...the strategy here *isn't* really to reduce cars, but to maximise tourist income in the gateway towns. It'll backfire on them in spades if they run with it. Our club probably spends 400 person-nights a year in Snowdonia. Knowing the players as I do, if you take away their freedom to decide when/where they're climbing or walking, and the possibility to make short-notice changes to plans, that figure'll likely drop below 100.
In reply to Rob Naylor: Rob you are absolutely right. On 5 or 6 weekends a year there is a parking/ crowding problem. This could be solved by establishing better, subtley positioned parking areas.
Yes I think we should have a better bus service, but I absolutely believe you should offer people choice with regards to access. If you don't, then they will just go elsewhere.
Cheers, Simon.
Yes I think we should have a better bus service, but I absolutely believe you should offer people choice with regards to access. If you don't, then they will just go elsewhere.
Cheers, Simon.
In reply to Rob Naylor:
. . . unless it's Sunday, in which case there won't be a bus until lunchtime anyway.
. . . unless it's Sunday, in which case there won't be a bus until lunchtime anyway.
In reply to Simon Panton:
Sorry, Simon, it wasn't intended as a swipe at the farmer - I've got no objection to him charging a pound a day to park when you're not camping. Just an observation that banning all roadside parking in the Ogwen valley was unlikely to lead to climbers parking in Llanberis and waiting for the first bus. Surely more likely to lead to more fields turned over to parking?
Sorry, Simon, it wasn't intended as a swipe at the farmer - I've got no objection to him charging a pound a day to park when you're not camping. Just an observation that banning all roadside parking in the Ogwen valley was unlikely to lead to climbers parking in Llanberis and waiting for the first bus. Surely more likely to lead to more fields turned over to parking?
In reply to Simon Panton: Not so sure about it only being a problem 5/6 times per year.
As I said I was there mid-late November not particularly late in the day and Pen-y-pass was already full as were most of the lay-bys back down the pass.
As I said I was there mid-late November not particularly late in the day and Pen-y-pass was already full as were most of the lay-bys back down the pass.
In reply to Rob Naylor: Lets all get on the bus wearing crampons and flailing axes with wild abandon
In reply to Carolyn:
Oh, I think the "powers that be" will have something to say to that. One of the sections in the SD, if I recall it correctly, says something to the effect that in high season the parking charges at the gateway towns will be via a "token" system which will be redeemable in local shops.
ie...you want free/cheap parking, you must spend money in our town. My cynicism says that the money grubbers won't let people circumvent an opportunity like that by paying a quid to park 15 miles away, in farmer Evans' field!
As someone above says, this whole thing smacks of a "sexy" scheme to obtain Cat 1 funding, and to provide employment for the armies of consultants it'll doubtless "need" to plan and run it.
Oh, I think the "powers that be" will have something to say to that. One of the sections in the SD, if I recall it correctly, says something to the effect that in high season the parking charges at the gateway towns will be via a "token" system which will be redeemable in local shops.
ie...you want free/cheap parking, you must spend money in our town. My cynicism says that the money grubbers won't let people circumvent an opportunity like that by paying a quid to park 15 miles away, in farmer Evans' field!
As someone above says, this whole thing smacks of a "sexy" scheme to obtain Cat 1 funding, and to provide employment for the armies of consultants it'll doubtless "need" to plan and run it.
In reply to Rob Naylor:
I've not read the details of this scheme, other than whats been said about it on this thread I won't comment on the details. What I can say that in principle I am in favour of a scheme to cut down traffic and even visitors in certain areas of Snowdonia, spreading the impact of the visitors throughout the region is, I think, a good thing.
What angered me about a lot of the postings on this thread is the way that the concern for most was not the implication's of the scheme for Snowdonia's environment or the people who live there but the implication for the climbers pocket. Many seem unconcerend about the environment once it starts effecting them financially. We've had people here complaining about being funneled to towns to be stripped of their money (the implication being the money grabbing bastards of Snowdonia are out to rip you off). No one is being forced to spend money in the shops and cafes of 'Beris and Betws, if you're to weak willed to walk past a shop without popping in and buying somthing then tough.
It may well be that this scheme is unworkable and have a detremental affect on the area but instead of discussing alternatives people are whinging about paying up, if you go to a car park in any town you are expected to pay, so whats the difference when you come to a National park where the parking pressures are essentially the same. Oh the difference is now its a bunch of thieving Welsh farmers doing it, "Don't they realise we're English, they owe us".
I appreciate Michealw's position that it might make things more expensive, but isn't that true of anything, how much was it to go to the Dome, or Alton Towers. The only person on this thread who had experience of the park and ride was very positive about it.
I've not read the details of this scheme, other than whats been said about it on this thread I won't comment on the details. What I can say that in principle I am in favour of a scheme to cut down traffic and even visitors in certain areas of Snowdonia, spreading the impact of the visitors throughout the region is, I think, a good thing.
What angered me about a lot of the postings on this thread is the way that the concern for most was not the implication's of the scheme for Snowdonia's environment or the people who live there but the implication for the climbers pocket. Many seem unconcerend about the environment once it starts effecting them financially. We've had people here complaining about being funneled to towns to be stripped of their money (the implication being the money grabbing bastards of Snowdonia are out to rip you off). No one is being forced to spend money in the shops and cafes of 'Beris and Betws, if you're to weak willed to walk past a shop without popping in and buying somthing then tough.
It may well be that this scheme is unworkable and have a detremental affect on the area but instead of discussing alternatives people are whinging about paying up, if you go to a car park in any town you are expected to pay, so whats the difference when you come to a National park where the parking pressures are essentially the same. Oh the difference is now its a bunch of thieving Welsh farmers doing it, "Don't they realise we're English, they owe us".
I appreciate Michealw's position that it might make things more expensive, but isn't that true of anything, how much was it to go to the Dome, or Alton Towers. The only person on this thread who had experience of the park and ride was very positive about it.
In reply to MJH:
I've never had a problem parking anywhere I wanted in the main valleys...I just make sure I arrive reasonably early.
If the mid-Nov period you're talking about is the one including the good weather weekend, that was particularly full for November. We had trouble booking a hut. Reason seemed to be that it was the first "Weekend Away" trip for most uni climbing/mountaineering club. They have their Freshers Meets in Cotober, and then their first "real" away meets in mid-late November. Almost every hut we tried had been pre-booked by a uni club!
I've never had a problem parking anywhere I wanted in the main valleys...I just make sure I arrive reasonably early.
If the mid-Nov period you're talking about is the one including the good weather weekend, that was particularly full for November. We had trouble booking a hut. Reason seemed to be that it was the first "Weekend Away" trip for most uni climbing/mountaineering club. They have their Freshers Meets in Cotober, and then their first "real" away meets in mid-late November. Almost every hut we tried had been pre-booked by a uni club!
In reply to Tyler:
I've had experience of the Park and Ride over the years, too. Sometimes it's been great; other times buses just don't appear. I've waited over an hour for a bus on at least a couple of occassions, when they were timetabled to be every 20 min or so.
It'd be fantastic if the bus was reliable and frequent enough to be useful. I've no desire to fight for a parking space at PyP if I can pick up a bus from the campsite. But the prospect of closing the car parks off completely just seems to limit when you can get on the hill......
I've had experience of the Park and Ride over the years, too. Sometimes it's been great; other times buses just don't appear. I've waited over an hour for a bus on at least a couple of occassions, when they were timetabled to be every 20 min or so.
It'd be fantastic if the bus was reliable and frequent enough to be useful. I've no desire to fight for a parking space at PyP if I can pick up a bus from the campsite. But the prospect of closing the car parks off completely just seems to limit when you can get on the hill......
In reply to Tyler:
I also only read this thread, however the impression that I gained was that the vast majority of people (all?) were against the proposal. I agree that the environment was not mentioned, however I think that most of the vitriol was against the probable reason for the scheme which seems to be mainly about ensuring people visit the honey-pots. Hence all the financial comments - reasonable, as this seems to be the underlying cause of the proposal. I suspect that the primary justifications will be safety and the environment, however I also would think that the primary driver would be financial.
Most of the respondents to this thread also seemed to be concerned about the convenience factor as well as the financial impact on climbers / walkers.
As such I would think that your posting is a little unfair to RT people as the scheme would not seem to be about the environment but money.
Small lunch time rant!
I also only read this thread, however the impression that I gained was that the vast majority of people (all?) were against the proposal. I agree that the environment was not mentioned, however I think that most of the vitriol was against the probable reason for the scheme which seems to be mainly about ensuring people visit the honey-pots. Hence all the financial comments - reasonable, as this seems to be the underlying cause of the proposal. I suspect that the primary justifications will be safety and the environment, however I also would think that the primary driver would be financial.
Most of the respondents to this thread also seemed to be concerned about the convenience factor as well as the financial impact on climbers / walkers.
As such I would think that your posting is a little unfair to RT people as the scheme would not seem to be about the environment but money.
Small lunch time rant!
In reply to Tyler:
I suggest that if you do, you'll see where the objections lie.
Not true...this scheme doesn't seem to do much for the environment. They want visitor numbers *up* and to that end are planning massive expansion of car parking in the Gateway towns...ie, bringing more cars *into the environment*.
>We've had people here complaining about being funneled to towns to be stripped of their money (the implication being the money grabbing bastards of Snowdonia are out to rip you off).
Yes, I've complained about that. The document specifically mentions that the average visitor spends less than a visitor to the Lakes, and specifically states that part of the strategy will include elements to ensure that people will spend money in the towns. This includes, as I've said above, a redeemable toekn system so that you get a rebate on your parking fee once you spend a certain amount of money in the town where you're parked.
Not for a minute suggesting that the general populace of Snowdonia is wanting to rip people off. From what I've gleaned from friends living there the *ordinary* people think this is a crackpot scheme. It's the politicians going for the "Objective 1" funding and the managemnt consultants from Cardiff who seem to me to be the "money grabbing bastards".
No one is being forced to spend money in the shops and cafes of 'Beris and Betws, if you're to weak willed to walk past a shop without popping in and buying somthing then tough.
Depends where they set the level for redeeming parking fees.
Bollocks, Tyler. I'd quite happily pay up to park in a field near the crag, or even in the laybys in the valleys, should they become pay and display...as long as the money was used for outdoor-related services. I *always* put my quid in the box at Harrison's, which is more than most do, and I go there a lot. However, if I had to park in Tunbridge Wells at £6 per time, with a rebate if I spent more than £20 in "Country Trails", wait an hour for a bus to Harrison's and then have to keep an eye on the clock for a bus back, I think I'd just go to Swanage instead!
But this is a whole new ball game. Fine...set up an enhanced park and ride scheme. Make the laybys pay and display, but still let people park there. If the P & R turns out to be great, then fine, use of laybys will naturally wither away and the P & R scheme'll come to dominate. Snowdonia *isn't* a theme park.
It's the compulsion, the funnelling into specified areas and the cynical use of the "green" label in the SD as cover for what is in reality a car-use/visitor number *expanding* strategy which get up *my* nose, not the actual cost of a bit of parking.
> (In reply to Rob Naylor)
> I've not read the details of this scheme, other than whats been said about it on this thread I won't comment on the details.
> I've not read the details of this scheme, other than whats been said about it on this thread I won't comment on the details.
I suggest that if you do, you'll see where the objections lie.
> What angered me about a lot of the postings on this thread is the way that the concern for most was not the implication's of the scheme for Snowdonia's environment or the people who live there but the implication for the climbers pocket.
Not true...this scheme doesn't seem to do much for the environment. They want visitor numbers *up* and to that end are planning massive expansion of car parking in the Gateway towns...ie, bringing more cars *into the environment*.
>We've had people here complaining about being funneled to towns to be stripped of their money (the implication being the money grabbing bastards of Snowdonia are out to rip you off).
Yes, I've complained about that. The document specifically mentions that the average visitor spends less than a visitor to the Lakes, and specifically states that part of the strategy will include elements to ensure that people will spend money in the towns. This includes, as I've said above, a redeemable toekn system so that you get a rebate on your parking fee once you spend a certain amount of money in the town where you're parked.
Not for a minute suggesting that the general populace of Snowdonia is wanting to rip people off. From what I've gleaned from friends living there the *ordinary* people think this is a crackpot scheme. It's the politicians going for the "Objective 1" funding and the managemnt consultants from Cardiff who seem to me to be the "money grabbing bastards".
No one is being forced to spend money in the shops and cafes of 'Beris and Betws, if you're to weak willed to walk past a shop without popping in and buying somthing then tough.
Depends where they set the level for redeeming parking fees.
> It may well be that this scheme is unworkable and have a detremental affect on the area but instead of discussing alternatives people are whinging about paying up, if you go to a car park in any town you are expected to pay, so whats the difference when you come to a National park where the parking pressures are essentially the same. Oh the difference is now its a bunch of thieving Welsh farmers doing it, "Don't they realise we're English, they owe us".
Bollocks, Tyler. I'd quite happily pay up to park in a field near the crag, or even in the laybys in the valleys, should they become pay and display...as long as the money was used for outdoor-related services. I *always* put my quid in the box at Harrison's, which is more than most do, and I go there a lot. However, if I had to park in Tunbridge Wells at £6 per time, with a rebate if I spent more than £20 in "Country Trails", wait an hour for a bus to Harrison's and then have to keep an eye on the clock for a bus back, I think I'd just go to Swanage instead!
> I appreciate Michealw's position that it might make things more expensive, but isn't that true of anything, how much was it to go to the Dome, or Alton Towers. The only person on this thread who had experience of the park and ride was very positive about it.
But this is a whole new ball game. Fine...set up an enhanced park and ride scheme. Make the laybys pay and display, but still let people park there. If the P & R turns out to be great, then fine, use of laybys will naturally wither away and the P & R scheme'll come to dominate. Snowdonia *isn't* a theme park.
It's the compulsion, the funnelling into specified areas and the cynical use of the "green" label in the SD as cover for what is in reality a car-use/visitor number *expanding* strategy which get up *my* nose, not the actual cost of a bit of parking.
In reply to Rob Naylor:
God that's worrying - some people around here think that I'm paid by the word. If I go and get succinct they'll get worried!
God that's worrying - some people around here think that I'm paid by the word. If I go and get succinct they'll get worried!
In reply to Miles:
BTW...for those who've been asking who to contact with input, it's:
Gwenllian.Owens@gwynedd.gov.uk
You can order copies of the Strategy Doc there, too. Prolly best to actually *read* the SD before commenting on the proposals .
BTW...for those who've been asking who to contact with input, it's:
Gwenllian.Owens@gwynedd.gov.uk
You can order copies of the Strategy Doc there, too. Prolly best to actually *read* the SD before commenting on the proposals .
In reply to Rob Naylor:
Just so things don't turn personal, I was replying to the thread as a whole not you personaly (or anyone else for that matter). In fact I was addressing "climbers" as a whole, and obviously when you make generalisations there will be exceptions. I dare say everyone would consider themselves an exception to the attitudes that I was critising in my post, however, I don't think that is true.
As I admitted, I haven't read the proposal, which is why I made no comment on it specificaly, I said that in principle I was in favour of any scheme that eased traffic congestion and visual pollution in the Snowdonia. Most of the other critics of the scheme haven't read the proposals either so didn't know what they were objecting to, like I said the critisism was that they might be hit in the pocket or inconvenienced. I stand by that, we had exactly the same thing in the Peak when pay and display was introduced there. For years there had been much hand wringing of the congestion problems in the park. As soon as some effort was made to spread people out (by "taxing" them at the Plantation) or reduce visual polution (the car park at the plantation is much less of an eye sore than cars parked on verges) people were up in arms, purely on the basis of cost.
The details of this plan don't seem workable, and the motives for doing them are not the best but if a few more people get to enjoy Cwm Cylin or Cnicht as a result it is not all bad. The money grabbing goes on everywhere, they've built a shopping center into the car park for the Lowry center in Manchester, thats not saying its right just pointing out that climbers are not being picked on specifically, nor are we a special case that deserves to be treated differently.
To conclude, I am not in a position to comment on this plan specifically, its just that I get sick of the hypocracy that I find prevalent amongst many climbers. On the one hand they make cynical use of the green "label" when it suits, but as soon as sacrifices have to be made there is a complete volte face. I don't want to have to catch a bus to go to the pass either but I don't think that because I have to make more of an effort to get there it will lessen the experience, anymore than having to walk for 2 hrs to get to the Ben lessens that.
Just so things don't turn personal, I was replying to the thread as a whole not you personaly (or anyone else for that matter). In fact I was addressing "climbers" as a whole, and obviously when you make generalisations there will be exceptions. I dare say everyone would consider themselves an exception to the attitudes that I was critising in my post, however, I don't think that is true.
As I admitted, I haven't read the proposal, which is why I made no comment on it specificaly, I said that in principle I was in favour of any scheme that eased traffic congestion and visual pollution in the Snowdonia. Most of the other critics of the scheme haven't read the proposals either so didn't know what they were objecting to, like I said the critisism was that they might be hit in the pocket or inconvenienced. I stand by that, we had exactly the same thing in the Peak when pay and display was introduced there. For years there had been much hand wringing of the congestion problems in the park. As soon as some effort was made to spread people out (by "taxing" them at the Plantation) or reduce visual polution (the car park at the plantation is much less of an eye sore than cars parked on verges) people were up in arms, purely on the basis of cost.
The details of this plan don't seem workable, and the motives for doing them are not the best but if a few more people get to enjoy Cwm Cylin or Cnicht as a result it is not all bad. The money grabbing goes on everywhere, they've built a shopping center into the car park for the Lowry center in Manchester, thats not saying its right just pointing out that climbers are not being picked on specifically, nor are we a special case that deserves to be treated differently.
To conclude, I am not in a position to comment on this plan specifically, its just that I get sick of the hypocracy that I find prevalent amongst many climbers. On the one hand they make cynical use of the green "label" when it suits, but as soon as sacrifices have to be made there is a complete volte face. I don't want to have to catch a bus to go to the pass either but I don't think that because I have to make more of an effort to get there it will lessen the experience, anymore than having to walk for 2 hrs to get to the Ben lessens that.
In reply to Tyler:
>>anymore than having to walk for 2 hrs to get to the Ben lessens that
Yep.
It has to be convenient so we can *achieve*. We *must* do lots of numbers without having to get up early, fumble home in the dark, organise our kit the night before or walk one step further than strictly necessary. And if something goes wrong, it isn't an adventure - it's a disaster! So you missed the bus? So what? The stars are out.
What it needs, to work, is a major re-definition of attitudes. And that's going to happen?
>>anymore than having to walk for 2 hrs to get to the Ben lessens that
Yep.
It has to be convenient so we can *achieve*. We *must* do lots of numbers without having to get up early, fumble home in the dark, organise our kit the night before or walk one step further than strictly necessary. And if something goes wrong, it isn't an adventure - it's a disaster! So you missed the bus? So what? The stars are out.
What it needs, to work, is a major re-definition of attitudes. And that's going to happen?
In reply to Tyler: The next thing will be, you cant climb without a bus ticket and BMC card!
They should go ahead with the bus service for tourists and allow partial parking (long stay) for walkers/climbers etc
In the case of an accident in the hills, it would be nice to know that your car is not miles away!
Stu
They should go ahead with the bus service for tourists and allow partial parking (long stay) for walkers/climbers etc
In the case of an accident in the hills, it would be nice to know that your car is not miles away!
Stu
In reply to Wingnut:
You are making an awful lot of assumptions about other peoples' motivations and desires aren't you?
G
You are making an awful lot of assumptions about other peoples' motivations and desires aren't you?
G
In reply to Rob Naylor et al:
Tyler, while I sympathise with what you say, I don't see that this is going to restrict car use in general. I and many others like me will still drive from London to North Wales to go climbing. Making me do the last few miles by bus isn't going to help, and for that matter nor is making me climb on Tremadog, the Lleyn, Gogarth, Crafnant or whatever.
As it happens these plans aren't going to affect me at all, unless they actually close the Pass to non-local traffic and watch Llanberis turn into a ghost town, because I can just park at Ynys Ettws or Helyg. And isn't that always the trouble with taxing access, or one kind of access? It just penalises the poor, and thus diminishes the whole idea of having national parks in the first place.
And I just don't see what these plans are designed to achieve. Solve a dangerous parking problem? Or what? If it's just trying to get us to spend more money, I rather sympathise. If I was a local and I watched people drive to their huts and eat breakfast instead of going to Pete's, or bringing packed lunches from Birmingham rather than buying locally, I think I'd be pissed off. But if that's the plan it would make more sense to just cordon off the area and sell you a £10 voucher exchangable locally.
Wingnut, go, girl! It's 6.30 on a winter's evening, you've missed the last bus, your car's in Betws, no chance of a lift because there's no traffic any more, an 8 hour walk in front of you and then a 4 hour drive back to London, supposing you can stay awake. But, hey, the stars are out. That is most definitely the spirit in which to confront such a misfortune, but as a justification of this plan, I'm not so sure.
Tyler, while I sympathise with what you say, I don't see that this is going to restrict car use in general. I and many others like me will still drive from London to North Wales to go climbing. Making me do the last few miles by bus isn't going to help, and for that matter nor is making me climb on Tremadog, the Lleyn, Gogarth, Crafnant or whatever.
As it happens these plans aren't going to affect me at all, unless they actually close the Pass to non-local traffic and watch Llanberis turn into a ghost town, because I can just park at Ynys Ettws or Helyg. And isn't that always the trouble with taxing access, or one kind of access? It just penalises the poor, and thus diminishes the whole idea of having national parks in the first place.
And I just don't see what these plans are designed to achieve. Solve a dangerous parking problem? Or what? If it's just trying to get us to spend more money, I rather sympathise. If I was a local and I watched people drive to their huts and eat breakfast instead of going to Pete's, or bringing packed lunches from Birmingham rather than buying locally, I think I'd be pissed off. But if that's the plan it would make more sense to just cordon off the area and sell you a £10 voucher exchangable locally.
Wingnut, go, girl! It's 6.30 on a winter's evening, you've missed the last bus, your car's in Betws, no chance of a lift because there's no traffic any more, an 8 hour walk in front of you and then a 4 hour drive back to London, supposing you can stay awake. But, hey, the stars are out. That is most definitely the spirit in which to confront such a misfortune, but as a justification of this plan, I'm not so sure.
In reply to StuT:
Thats the thing, no one is being prevented from going climbing so raising fatuous points about BMC cards is nonsense. I think you highlight the attitudes I was getting at when you say "They should go ahead with the bus service for tourists and allow partial parking (long stay) for walkers/climbers". Why do we as climbers deserve special treatment from others wanting to enjoy Snowdonia, who else should be excempt, hare courses, mountain bikers, 4 wheel drivers? How far would you have to walk from the road to qualify as a walker rather than a tourist? I bet when you go abroad you're not a tourist but a traveller aren't you, I bet you really "relate" to the locals?
As for wanting to be close to the car incase of an accident, what rot! Just accept where you are and take some resbonsibility. What happens when you go to Torridon or the Ben? Do you think we should take cars into these incase you have an accident?
Before everyone leaps on me, I'm am not making a defence for this particular scheme, just saying that if a well run park and ride scheme was introduced I wouldn't have a problem with that.
Thats the thing, no one is being prevented from going climbing so raising fatuous points about BMC cards is nonsense. I think you highlight the attitudes I was getting at when you say "They should go ahead with the bus service for tourists and allow partial parking (long stay) for walkers/climbers". Why do we as climbers deserve special treatment from others wanting to enjoy Snowdonia, who else should be excempt, hare courses, mountain bikers, 4 wheel drivers? How far would you have to walk from the road to qualify as a walker rather than a tourist? I bet when you go abroad you're not a tourist but a traveller aren't you, I bet you really "relate" to the locals?
As for wanting to be close to the car incase of an accident, what rot! Just accept where you are and take some resbonsibility. What happens when you go to Torridon or the Ben? Do you think we should take cars into these incase you have an accident?
Before everyone leaps on me, I'm am not making a defence for this particular scheme, just saying that if a well run park and ride scheme was introduced I wouldn't have a problem with that.
In reply to Wingnut:
Wrong analogy. I'm fine doing a few hours walk in to get in a high route, or just to have a walk. I think maybe you and Tyler would have a better analogy if, as well as the 2 hour walk in from the road to the Ben, you were faced with a road walk all the way to Ballachulish on a shitty, cold, rainy night (when the stars are *not* out)if you'd missed the last bus after having a minor epic (Let's pretent Ft William isn't there). No chance of hitching, since the road's a clearway.
Do all that. I'm usually up at 0630 latest when in Snowdonia, whether in a hut or camping. Sure, it *can* be an adventure when things go wrong...but a massive road walk (or a shell out for ataxi) is rarely an adventure in my book. But why should we put up with a change in the status quo, which works well at present, and will continue to work reasonably well for the next 15-20 years?
Who's attitudes? I think the attitudes expressed here are quite reasonable. If I'm going to spend 6 hours getting to Snowdonia from Kent and 6 hours getting back out of a 48 hour weekend, I naturally want to maximise my time on the hill.
Adding an hour or so at the beginning and end of each day getting from the hut to the public transport point, then to the "popular" drop-off point and back, assuming there'll be a bus at 0700 when I'm ready to hit the crag, is just so much unneccesary time wasted when its main justification is to pen me in a town where I don't want to be, in order that I can be induced to spend more money locally.
No, the attitude change needed is that of the planners who are comparing the "per visitor spend" in Snowdonia with that of the Lakes. The visitor profiles are very different. The LD has *many* more large (by Snowdonia standards) "pretty" towns which attract day trippers and longer term visitors who aren't that "outdoorsy". Consequently the proportion of "outdoorsy" people in Snowdonia is much higher.
By definition, we're spending more of our time away from spending opportunitues than the non-outdoorsy types. Therefore, the SNPA and its cronies are flogging a dead horse if they think they can get their "per visitor spend" to equal that of the LD. there just aren't enough "pretty" towns of sufficient size for the proportion of "non-outdoors" visitors to approach that of the Lakes. Unless they build theme parks around the area, it won't happen, full stop.
The attitude that *most* needs to change, IMO, is that which jumps enthusiastically and uncritically onto the bandwagon that any mad scheme which has "this'll reduce car use" tagged onto it must, be definition, be good!
> (In reply to Tyler)
> >>anymore than having to walk for 2 hrs to get to the Ben lessens that
> Yep.
> Yep.
Wrong analogy. I'm fine doing a few hours walk in to get in a high route, or just to have a walk. I think maybe you and Tyler would have a better analogy if, as well as the 2 hour walk in from the road to the Ben, you were faced with a road walk all the way to Ballachulish on a shitty, cold, rainy night (when the stars are *not* out)if you'd missed the last bus after having a minor epic (Let's pretent Ft William isn't there). No chance of hitching, since the road's a clearway.
> It has to be convenient so we can *achieve*. We *must* do lots of numbers without having to get up early, fumble home in the dark, organise our kit the night before...
Do all that. I'm usually up at 0630 latest when in Snowdonia, whether in a hut or camping. Sure, it *can* be an adventure when things go wrong...but a massive road walk (or a shell out for ataxi) is rarely an adventure in my book. But why should we put up with a change in the status quo, which works well at present, and will continue to work reasonably well for the next 15-20 years?
>
> What it needs, to work, is a major re-definition of attitudes. And that's going to happen?
> What it needs, to work, is a major re-definition of attitudes. And that's going to happen?
Who's attitudes? I think the attitudes expressed here are quite reasonable. If I'm going to spend 6 hours getting to Snowdonia from Kent and 6 hours getting back out of a 48 hour weekend, I naturally want to maximise my time on the hill.
Adding an hour or so at the beginning and end of each day getting from the hut to the public transport point, then to the "popular" drop-off point and back, assuming there'll be a bus at 0700 when I'm ready to hit the crag, is just so much unneccesary time wasted when its main justification is to pen me in a town where I don't want to be, in order that I can be induced to spend more money locally.
No, the attitude change needed is that of the planners who are comparing the "per visitor spend" in Snowdonia with that of the Lakes. The visitor profiles are very different. The LD has *many* more large (by Snowdonia standards) "pretty" towns which attract day trippers and longer term visitors who aren't that "outdoorsy". Consequently the proportion of "outdoorsy" people in Snowdonia is much higher.
By definition, we're spending more of our time away from spending opportunitues than the non-outdoorsy types. Therefore, the SNPA and its cronies are flogging a dead horse if they think they can get their "per visitor spend" to equal that of the LD. there just aren't enough "pretty" towns of sufficient size for the proportion of "non-outdoors" visitors to approach that of the Lakes. Unless they build theme parks around the area, it won't happen, full stop.
The attitude that *most* needs to change, IMO, is that which jumps enthusiastically and uncritically onto the bandwagon that any mad scheme which has "this'll reduce car use" tagged onto it must, be definition, be good!
In reply to Rob Naylor:
>>Adding an hour or so at the beginning and end of each day getting from the hut to the public transport point, then to the "popular" drop-off point and back, assuming there'll be a bus at 0700 when I'm ready to hit the crag . . .
That's part of the problem. It needs to be *good* public transport. Not adequate, but *good* before it can compete successfully. And to be good takes money.
>>Adding an hour or so at the beginning and end of each day getting from the hut to the public transport point, then to the "popular" drop-off point and back, assuming there'll be a bus at 0700 when I'm ready to hit the crag . . .
That's part of the problem. It needs to be *good* public transport. Not adequate, but *good* before it can compete successfully. And to be good takes money.
In reply to Wingnut:
Looks like you ditched your "are those with a relatively chilled attitude to inconvenience those who are complaining" just as I hit the tit to answer it.
In my case, the answer is "yes". I feel that I have a reasonably chilled attitude to most types of inconvenience, especially when its an inconvenience I've brought on myself.
I've been forced to sleep out nights, got myself into dumb situations, been held up as an example of "good humour and philosophical acceptance" after a ground fall. I even managed to sink a 4WD up to the axles in "subka" in Mauretania and did nothing more than load 3 bottles of water into a bag then walk several miles across the desert to a nomad camp with my mate, having a laugh about my crap driving the whole way.
Inconvenience and extra cost I can put up with *if it has a point*. IMO, this scheme doesn't.
Looks like you ditched your "are those with a relatively chilled attitude to inconvenience those who are complaining" just as I hit the tit to answer it.
In my case, the answer is "yes". I feel that I have a reasonably chilled attitude to most types of inconvenience, especially when its an inconvenience I've brought on myself.
I've been forced to sleep out nights, got myself into dumb situations, been held up as an example of "good humour and philosophical acceptance" after a ground fall. I even managed to sink a 4WD up to the axles in "subka" in Mauretania and did nothing more than load 3 bottles of water into a bag then walk several miles across the desert to a nomad camp with my mate, having a laugh about my crap driving the whole way.
Inconvenience and extra cost I can put up with *if it has a point*. IMO, this scheme doesn't.
In reply to Wingnut: What is actually needed is some improved parking facilities and an improved bus service.
If you go up the Pass at a quiet time (i.e. 90% of the time)you will be able to park easily and enjoy your chosen pursuit without any hassle. If you arrive late on a busy day (i.e. on a weekend) then there should be a park and ride facility to give you access to the mountains.
Not very complicated really, is it?
Do you realise they are suggesting that all parking in the National Park should be 'curtailed'? Don't you think this a bit extreme? What about early morning starts and late night (unplanned) finishes? What about people standing by the roadside, soaking wet and slowly developing exposure while they wait for the bus? How are you going to fit a canoe on a bus? What about the many locals who go up the Pass after work to grab a quick route or an hour on the Cromlech Boulders just before it gets dark? What about the fact that there will still be loads of cars driving around on the roads, only this time with the additional pollution of a troupe of diesel glugging buses? (there are no plans to use LPG)I could go on...
The consultation process is a joke. Letters and responses to previous discussion documents have been consistently ignored. In fact this document is no more than a vague re-hash of it's predecessor. The Strategy document is dated Aug 2001, yet was only released in mid December. Promotion of the consultation meetings has been very low key.
The truth is, they are only going through the motions, because Objective 1 funding requires that they do.
As for the notion that visitors don't spend enough in the local economy: I am of the view that we (the local business community) should take a good deal of the responsibility for this. If we don't provide attractive services or products that people want then we don't deserve to survive. I also think that a figure of 1 in 10 visitors being a non-spender is pretty good actually. If visitors to the National Park really didn't contribute to the local economy, then why did all hell break loose round here during the F&M period. The bottom line is that outdoor enthusiasts are the life blood of this area.
I guess I've ranted enough, Cheers, Simon.
If you go up the Pass at a quiet time (i.e. 90% of the time)you will be able to park easily and enjoy your chosen pursuit without any hassle. If you arrive late on a busy day (i.e. on a weekend) then there should be a park and ride facility to give you access to the mountains.
Not very complicated really, is it?
Do you realise they are suggesting that all parking in the National Park should be 'curtailed'? Don't you think this a bit extreme? What about early morning starts and late night (unplanned) finishes? What about people standing by the roadside, soaking wet and slowly developing exposure while they wait for the bus? How are you going to fit a canoe on a bus? What about the many locals who go up the Pass after work to grab a quick route or an hour on the Cromlech Boulders just before it gets dark? What about the fact that there will still be loads of cars driving around on the roads, only this time with the additional pollution of a troupe of diesel glugging buses? (there are no plans to use LPG)I could go on...
The consultation process is a joke. Letters and responses to previous discussion documents have been consistently ignored. In fact this document is no more than a vague re-hash of it's predecessor. The Strategy document is dated Aug 2001, yet was only released in mid December. Promotion of the consultation meetings has been very low key.
The truth is, they are only going through the motions, because Objective 1 funding requires that they do.
As for the notion that visitors don't spend enough in the local economy: I am of the view that we (the local business community) should take a good deal of the responsibility for this. If we don't provide attractive services or products that people want then we don't deserve to survive. I also think that a figure of 1 in 10 visitors being a non-spender is pretty good actually. If visitors to the National Park really didn't contribute to the local economy, then why did all hell break loose round here during the F&M period. The bottom line is that outdoor enthusiasts are the life blood of this area.
I guess I've ranted enough, Cheers, Simon.
In reply to John Cox:
ooohh...come out as a CC member, have you? Didn't think you were old enough to join
I have to plead a bit guilty to bringing stuff in. Can't always afford the pub for a meal once I've divvied up for petrol and a hut. However, I did *try* and buy things locally. That ended when I was cooking for 28 and tried to buy some lamb at the Spar in Betws. No fresh or even frozen lamb in a store in Wales. Not "not enough for 28", but "none at all"! That was the last time I *relied* on being able to buy *anything* locally
> (In reply to Rob Naylor et al)
> As it happens these plans aren't going to affect me at all, unless they actually close the Pass to non-local traffic and watch Llanberis turn into a ghost town, because I can just park at Ynys Ettws or Helyg.
> As it happens these plans aren't going to affect me at all, unless they actually close the Pass to non-local traffic and watch Llanberis turn into a ghost town, because I can just park at Ynys Ettws or Helyg.
ooohh...come out as a CC member, have you? Didn't think you were old enough to join
> And I just don't see what these plans are designed to achieve. Solve a dangerous parking problem? Or what? If it's just trying to get us to spend more money, I rather sympathise. If I was a local and I watched people drive to their huts and eat breakfast instead of going to Pete's, or bringing packed lunches from Birmingham rather than buying locally, I think I'd be pissed off.
I have to plead a bit guilty to bringing stuff in. Can't always afford the pub for a meal once I've divvied up for petrol and a hut. However, I did *try* and buy things locally. That ended when I was cooking for 28 and tried to buy some lamb at the Spar in Betws. No fresh or even frozen lamb in a store in Wales. Not "not enough for 28", but "none at all"! That was the last time I *relied* on being able to buy *anything* locally
In reply to everyone:
I might be being thick but I'm still not sure how I can make an 'official' response to the green key draft strategy.
Who do we write to with our objections?
I can't make any of the public meetings.
Thanks,
Chimpy
I might be being thick but I'm still not sure how I can make an 'official' response to the green key draft strategy.
Who do we write to with our objections?
I can't make any of the public meetings.
Thanks,
Chimpy
In reply to Rob Naylor:
I replied to the wrong person, killed it and re-posted it with the right replied-to - and it disappeared? Strange techy thing I guess?
And yes, the scheme will, if it gets off the ground, probably be fairly pointless. And badging it as a green scheme probably doesn't help. But there are (and I realise some may feel differently) better counter-arguments than just "inconvenient".
I replied to the wrong person, killed it and re-posted it with the right replied-to - and it disappeared? Strange techy thing I guess?
And yes, the scheme will, if it gets off the ground, probably be fairly pointless. And badging it as a green scheme probably doesn't help. But there are (and I realise some may feel differently) better counter-arguments than just "inconvenient".
In reply to chimp chops: Write to Gwenllian Owens, Planning and Economic Development Department, Council Offices, Caernarfon, Gwynedd, LL55 1SH, or e-mail her at GwenllianOwens@Gwynedd.gov.uk
Cheers, Simon.
Cheers, Simon.
In reply to Tyler:As for wanting to be close to the car incase of an accident, what rot! Just accept where you are and take some resbonsibility. What happens when you go to Torridon or the Ben? Do you think we should take cars into these incase you have an accident?
For the Ben Fort William is close to the road and the start to the walk in. Torridon I have not visited?
The car park would have to be in a town, can you say that if you got held up in a storm/injury(limp) and missed the last bus, how would you get back?
Phone a Taxi?
Stu
For the Ben Fort William is close to the road and the start to the walk in. Torridon I have not visited?
The car park would have to be in a town, can you say that if you got held up in a storm/injury(limp) and missed the last bus, how would you get back?
Phone a Taxi?
Stu
In reply to StuT: Sorry started that ages ago and had to do some work, Rob thanks for putting it better than me.
Stu
Stu
In reply to Wingnut:
My main viewpoint is "if it ain't broke, don't fix it". The parking in the Pass, Ogwen valley and elsewhere is not causing huge problems at present, except for a very few days.
I'd be happy to see a P & R scheme "compete" with the car, even to the level of seeing pay and display in the laybys. With a choice of good, frequent P & R vs pay and display, people could choose what's best for them *at the time*. If I know that I'm just going to be doing routes on the Cromlech, I may take the bus. It's the element of compulsion that pisses me off.
> (In reply to Rob Naylor)
> And yes, the scheme will, if it gets off the ground, probably be fairly pointless. And badging it as a green scheme probably doesn't help. But there are (and I realise some may feel differently) better counter-arguments than just "inconvenient".
My main viewpoint is "if it ain't broke, don't fix it". The parking in the Pass, Ogwen valley and elsewhere is not causing huge problems at present, except for a very few days.
I'd be happy to see a P & R scheme "compete" with the car, even to the level of seeing pay and display in the laybys. With a choice of good, frequent P & R vs pay and display, people could choose what's best for them *at the time*. If I know that I'm just going to be doing routes on the Cromlech, I may take the bus. It's the element of compulsion that pisses me off.
In reply to Simon Panton: Thanks, I'm going to write to her, Is anybody else?
Just ranting on rocktalk isn't going to change anything, Let your voices be heard in the outside world.
Don't rely on others to speak for you.
Cheers,
Chimpy
Just ranting on rocktalk isn't going to change anything, Let your voices be heard in the outside world.
Don't rely on others to speak for you.
Cheers,
Chimpy
In reply to chimp chops: Yes indeed. If you click on Rob's link and then click on the 'Snowdonia Green Key Partnership' box you go to a screen where you can download the document. It's 35 pages long when you print it out.
In reply to chimp chops: I would just like to reiterate the point of this: This is your chance to have a say in the future make up of the Snowdonia National Park. Go to the website listed in Rob's original posting, fill out the alternative response form (including any of your feelings about, for example, parking in the Pass: if this is likely to discourage you from coming and spending your money in this area, then tell them!). Tell all your friends and get them to send in response forms as well. The deadline for returned responses is Feb 8th.
If you don't fight for your rights, then you don't have any.
Come on, make your voices heard.
Last night saw the second meeting in Beddgelert. I couldn't make it, but Merle Gartside reported to me that the 100 or so crowd were, aside from one or two dissenters, equally condemning of the scheme as the people of Capel Curig on Monday (although, probably not quite as incendiary!). Interestingly several farmers turned up and voiced their objections to the scheme and questioned the lack of consultation of their community.
Cheers, Simon.
If you don't fight for your rights, then you don't have any.
Come on, make your voices heard.
Last night saw the second meeting in Beddgelert. I couldn't make it, but Merle Gartside reported to me that the 100 or so crowd were, aside from one or two dissenters, equally condemning of the scheme as the people of Capel Curig on Monday (although, probably not quite as incendiary!). Interestingly several farmers turned up and voiced their objections to the scheme and questioned the lack of consultation of their community.
Cheers, Simon.
In reply to Rob Naylor:
Rob gave the URL of the protest group in his initial message. Although they have a scanned copy of the consultation document (big download) you can - belatedly - get the official version on the Gwynedd Council website:
http://www.gwynedd.gov.uk/adrannau/economaidd/green_key/index.english.htm (all on one line)
The Acrobat PDF version is 485kb, a lot smaller than the unofficial version.
Pete B
Rob gave the URL of the protest group in his initial message. Although they have a scanned copy of the consultation document (big download) you can - belatedly - get the official version on the Gwynedd Council website:
http://www.gwynedd.gov.uk/adrannau/economaidd/green_key/index.english.htm (all on one line)
The Acrobat PDF version is 485kb, a lot smaller than the unofficial version.
Pete B
In reply to Pete Bland:
Thanks for that, Pete...wonder if the moans they've had from various people finally spurred them into uploading it?
Thanks for that, Pete...wonder if the moans they've had from various people finally spurred them into uploading it?
In reply to Graham:
So thats it then. If a more environmentally friendly transport system is going to possibly inconveneience you and p*ss you off lets scrap it eh?
Grow up.
So thats it then. If a more environmentally friendly transport system is going to possibly inconveneience you and p*ss you off lets scrap it eh?
Grow up.
In reply to Dave Garnett:
Not too far from Glan Dena to the Milestone I seem to remember! Hardly needs a car you could hop it in 2 minutes.
We all incur an environmental cost travelling to and parking in the mountains and we shouldn't complain about paying. Strategically placed car parks could benefit local shops and the more we as 'off comers' use the local facilities the better.
Why not go the whole hog and close the Pass road?
Not too far from Glan Dena to the Milestone I seem to remember! Hardly needs a car you could hop it in 2 minutes.
We all incur an environmental cost travelling to and parking in the mountains and we shouldn't complain about paying. Strategically placed car parks could benefit local shops and the more we as 'off comers' use the local facilities the better.
Why not go the whole hog and close the Pass road?
In reply to AndyM:
"So thats it then. If a more environmentally friendly transport system is going to possibly inconveneience you and p*ss you off lets scrap it eh? "
No, there is a trade off, and this seems to me to be going too far to the detriment of a large proportion of users of the park. Others have stated hopw there is only a problem on a few weekend sof the year, and that this scheme is a sledgehammer cracking a nut. Plainly the locals are against it, judging from reports coming from the open meetings.
"Grow up."
Poo.
G
"So thats it then. If a more environmentally friendly transport system is going to possibly inconveneience you and p*ss you off lets scrap it eh? "
No, there is a trade off, and this seems to me to be going too far to the detriment of a large proportion of users of the park. Others have stated hopw there is only a problem on a few weekend sof the year, and that this scheme is a sledgehammer cracking a nut. Plainly the locals are against it, judging from reports coming from the open meetings.
"Grow up."
Poo.
G
In reply to Andy Mackintosh: "Why not go the whole hog and close the Pass road?"
Why don't you go and share your very grown up idea with the people of LLanberis.
G
Why don't you go and share your very grown up idea with the people of LLanberis.
G
In reply to AndyM:
Have you actually read the document, or any of the points noted in this thread? Sounds to me as if you're just coming out with exactly the Pavlovian knee-jerk response the authors of this document were hoping for when they included the word "environment" in the text.
To re-iterate:
How is this more environmentally friendly? The authors are *not* looking to reduce car useage in the general area *at all*...as evidenced by their plans to construct massive new car parks in the Gateway towns. In fact, the document implies that they want to see *more* cars in the region as a whole, but just keep them out of the central area.
How will it be environmentally friendly if I'm staying at, say, the Bryn Twrch, near Capel Curig? To get to a crag in the Pass at present, I drive there. Under the planned scheme, I'd have to drive back to Betwys-y-Coed and pick up a bus, covering the distance CC-ByC 4 times, unneccesarily, plus the distance I already drive, CC-Pass and back. Alternatively I could drive CC-Llanberis and pick up a bus *there*, covering the distance Pass-LlB 4 times unneccesarily in addition to my existing CC-Pass mileage.
If you can tell me how this is more environmentally friendly, please do so. If not, then I suggest you refrain from "dissing" people with comments like "grow up" until you yourself have grown up enough to read documents, think logically and formulate a coherent argument.
> (In reply to Graham)
>
> So thats it then. If a more environmentally friendly transport system is going to possibly inconveneience you and p*ss you off lets scrap it eh?
>
> Grow up.
>
> So thats it then. If a more environmentally friendly transport system is going to possibly inconveneience you and p*ss you off lets scrap it eh?
>
> Grow up.
Have you actually read the document, or any of the points noted in this thread? Sounds to me as if you're just coming out with exactly the Pavlovian knee-jerk response the authors of this document were hoping for when they included the word "environment" in the text.
To re-iterate:
How is this more environmentally friendly? The authors are *not* looking to reduce car useage in the general area *at all*...as evidenced by their plans to construct massive new car parks in the Gateway towns. In fact, the document implies that they want to see *more* cars in the region as a whole, but just keep them out of the central area.
How will it be environmentally friendly if I'm staying at, say, the Bryn Twrch, near Capel Curig? To get to a crag in the Pass at present, I drive there. Under the planned scheme, I'd have to drive back to Betwys-y-Coed and pick up a bus, covering the distance CC-ByC 4 times, unneccesarily, plus the distance I already drive, CC-Pass and back. Alternatively I could drive CC-Llanberis and pick up a bus *there*, covering the distance Pass-LlB 4 times unneccesarily in addition to my existing CC-Pass mileage.
If you can tell me how this is more environmentally friendly, please do so. If not, then I suggest you refrain from "dissing" people with comments like "grow up" until you yourself have grown up enough to read documents, think logically and formulate a coherent argument.
In reply to Rob Naylor:
Wow, I tried to download it but it has failed twice so I gave up.
My response to grow up was much shorter, a four letter word but I refrained as there was steam coming out of my ears.
We are rapidly coming to the point where when you are driving you are taxed on the petrol and when you are stationary you are taxed on parking. it is possible that with an economical car it could work out cheaper to have someone driving it continuously rather than stopping.
Wow, I tried to download it but it has failed twice so I gave up.
My response to grow up was much shorter, a four letter word but I refrained as there was steam coming out of my ears.
We are rapidly coming to the point where when you are driving you are taxed on the petrol and when you are stationary you are taxed on parking. it is possible that with an economical car it could work out cheaper to have someone driving it continuously rather than stopping.
In reply to sutty:
LOL.
G
> We are rapidly coming to the point where when you are driving you are taxed on the petrol and when you are stationary you are taxed on parking. it is possible that with an economical car it could work out cheaper to have someone driving it continuously rather than stopping.
LOL.
G
In reply to Rob Naylor:
just an exuse to extract more money from those who pay to support the local economy - go to Scotland - climb those Munroes!
just an exuse to extract more money from those who pay to support the local economy - go to Scotland - climb those Munroes!
In reply to Rob Sanders: Rob, I hope you have filled in an alternative response form on the Freedom to choose website and told them what you think. Remember, expressing your opinion on this thread does not actually matter: tell them what you think, tell them why you're pissed off.
Cheers Simon.
Cheers Simon.
In reply to AndyM: What makes you think this is a more environmentally friendly scenario? Have you read any of the documents associated with this scheme? Have you read all of this thread?
Just because something appears on the surface to be 'anti-car/pro-environment' does not mean you should agree without thinking the specifics of the isssue through. Unfortunately the truth is far more complicated than you are implying.
I urge you to send in a response; tell them what you think. If you believe we should close down all the parking facilities in the National Park, devastate the local economy and unleash yet more dreadful diesel puffing, road blocking buses (Oh what a joy to meet a big awkward vehicle on that windy narrow hill down from the Pen Y Gwyryd to Nant Gwynant!) then fair play, tell them that: after all your opinion is just as valid as mine. All I would say is just bear in mind who you might be hurting.
Cheers, Simon.
Just because something appears on the surface to be 'anti-car/pro-environment' does not mean you should agree without thinking the specifics of the isssue through. Unfortunately the truth is far more complicated than you are implying.
I urge you to send in a response; tell them what you think. If you believe we should close down all the parking facilities in the National Park, devastate the local economy and unleash yet more dreadful diesel puffing, road blocking buses (Oh what a joy to meet a big awkward vehicle on that windy narrow hill down from the Pen Y Gwyryd to Nant Gwynant!) then fair play, tell them that: after all your opinion is just as valid as mine. All I would say is just bear in mind who you might be hurting.
Cheers, Simon.
In reply to Graham: Graham there is a growing sense of antagonism and desperation amongst local people. The Foot and Mouth access limitations (and the associated knock on effects...) has in effect politicised a lot of people (myself included). There was a time when I just assumed that the powers that be would sort everything out, that I didn't have to get too involved; that they had my interests at heart.
That's all changed: I'm now a political activist, and I absolutely refuse to allow these slippery f***ers to trample over over common sense for the sake of their careerist CVs or some Cardiff Assembly agenda.
I have been surprised by the unitity of opposition to this scheme. Local papers like the Daily Post like to present a 'controversial' divided image of the local communities (I guess it sells newspapers), but in reality, most people are just trying to get by. Yes, the language and culture issue is important, but sympathies for the Welsh heartland lie on both sides of the fence ( I have been a Welsh learner for 2 1/2 years; and I know many other incomers who also have made the effort to integrate). In reality this issue has bonded people from all sorts of backgrounds, and ultimately I think that the arrogance of this bloated consortium (Gwynedd CC, Conwy CC, WDA, CCW, Snowdonia National Park authority, Wales Tourist Board...with additional help from 'partner members' : Forestry Commision, Institute of Welsh Affairs, National Trust, N Wales Police and National Assembly Highways) deserves to fall flat on it's face.
We have to stop them. It's as simple as that.
Cheers, Simon.
That's all changed: I'm now a political activist, and I absolutely refuse to allow these slippery f***ers to trample over over common sense for the sake of their careerist CVs or some Cardiff Assembly agenda.
I have been surprised by the unitity of opposition to this scheme. Local papers like the Daily Post like to present a 'controversial' divided image of the local communities (I guess it sells newspapers), but in reality, most people are just trying to get by. Yes, the language and culture issue is important, but sympathies for the Welsh heartland lie on both sides of the fence ( I have been a Welsh learner for 2 1/2 years; and I know many other incomers who also have made the effort to integrate). In reality this issue has bonded people from all sorts of backgrounds, and ultimately I think that the arrogance of this bloated consortium (Gwynedd CC, Conwy CC, WDA, CCW, Snowdonia National Park authority, Wales Tourist Board...with additional help from 'partner members' : Forestry Commision, Institute of Welsh Affairs, National Trust, N Wales Police and National Assembly Highways) deserves to fall flat on it's face.
We have to stop them. It's as simple as that.
Cheers, Simon.
In reply to Simon Panton:
I sincerely hope you do. FWIW I have just banged off my opinions for Mr Whatisface's attention.
G
> We have to stop them. It's as simple as that.
> Cheers, Simon.
> Cheers, Simon.
I sincerely hope you do. FWIW I have just banged off my opinions for Mr Whatisface's attention.
G
In reply to Rob Naylor:
I certainly rang their office about 10 days ago querying the absence of the document from the Gwynedd website. The project officer (Gwenllian) was apologetic but obviously waiting for someone else to do this job. As the document has been around since last August - though publicly available on paper only around Xmas - one wonders what sort of admin system operates.
They do manage to do some things well - the online public transport timetables are very useful.
Pete B
>
> wonder if the moans they've had from various people
> finally spurred them into uploading it?
> wonder if the moans they've had from various people
> finally spurred them into uploading it?
I certainly rang their office about 10 days ago querying the absence of the document from the Gwynedd website. The project officer (Gwenllian) was apologetic but obviously waiting for someone else to do this job. As the document has been around since last August - though publicly available on paper only around Xmas - one wonders what sort of admin system operates.
They do manage to do some things well - the online public transport timetables are very useful.
Pete B
In reply to Graham:
Sent mine in, too. The number of people posting here has dropped right off after the first flurry, though. Is this'cos everyone's sent their views in already, or are most people just apathetic about the issue?
I'm a bit of a latecomer to the joys of Snowdonia...the Lakes and Scotland were my bag until about 3 years ago, but since starting to get into its ambience, I've grown to love the place. I hope that this thing won't just slip through due to apathy...I can't recall seeing anything in the climbing or walking press about it (but then I don't see that many mags any more).
Sent mine in, too. The number of people posting here has dropped right off after the first flurry, though. Is this'cos everyone's sent their views in already, or are most people just apathetic about the issue?
I'm a bit of a latecomer to the joys of Snowdonia...the Lakes and Scotland were my bag until about 3 years ago, but since starting to get into its ambience, I've grown to love the place. I hope that this thing won't just slip through due to apathy...I can't recall seeing anything in the climbing or walking press about it (but then I don't see that many mags any more).
In reply to Rob Naylor:
No apathy here I've posted my protest to the Snowdonia Green Key council wallas. I just don't want to keep repeating myself
No apathy here I've posted my protest to the Snowdonia Green Key council wallas. I just don't want to keep repeating myself
In reply to Rob Naylor:
>How will it be environmentally friendly if I'm staying at, say, the Bryn Twrch, near Capel Curig? To get to a crag in the Pass at present, I drive there. Under the planned scheme, I'd have to drive back to Betwys-y-Coed and pick up a bus, covering the distance CC-ByC 4 times, unneccesarily, plus the distance I already drive, CC-Pass and back. Alternatively I could drive CC-Llanberis and pick up a bus *there*, covering the distance Pass-LlB 4 times unneccesarily in addition to my existing CC-Pass mileage.
If you can tell me how this is more environmentally friendly, please do so.<
Rob, I'm in principle with you, and I'm not sure of the distances involved. But surely this isn't your best point. Is it not the one merit of this scheme that fewer vehicle miles in the Park will be clocked up? Even if you have to drive from CC to Betws and back, there will be a lot of journeys saved as the bus goes from Betws to the Pass, assuming it's fairly full.
Are surely the bus could pick you up at Capel Curig, couldn't it? If there aren't any stops along its proposed route, then I REALLY despair.
>How will it be environmentally friendly if I'm staying at, say, the Bryn Twrch, near Capel Curig? To get to a crag in the Pass at present, I drive there. Under the planned scheme, I'd have to drive back to Betwys-y-Coed and pick up a bus, covering the distance CC-ByC 4 times, unneccesarily, plus the distance I already drive, CC-Pass and back. Alternatively I could drive CC-Llanberis and pick up a bus *there*, covering the distance Pass-LlB 4 times unneccesarily in addition to my existing CC-Pass mileage.
If you can tell me how this is more environmentally friendly, please do so.<
Rob, I'm in principle with you, and I'm not sure of the distances involved. But surely this isn't your best point. Is it not the one merit of this scheme that fewer vehicle miles in the Park will be clocked up? Even if you have to drive from CC to Betws and back, there will be a lot of journeys saved as the bus goes from Betws to the Pass, assuming it's fairly full.
Are surely the bus could pick you up at Capel Curig, couldn't it? If there aren't any stops along its proposed route, then I REALLY despair.
In reply to John Cox:
I suspect you're right, John. Certainly in F&M, it stopped quite a few places on the route from Betws to Pen y Pass, including, for example, right outside the campsite on the A5. Presumably they've got the sense to cope with people who're staying within their central area (but, then again, it's always possible they haven't.....)?
I suspect you're right, John. Certainly in F&M, it stopped quite a few places on the route from Betws to Pen y Pass, including, for example, right outside the campsite on the A5. Presumably they've got the sense to cope with people who're staying within their central area (but, then again, it's always possible they haven't.....)?
In reply to John Cox:
There's nothing in the document about intermediate stops outside the gateway towns. If they do put stops in, near enough to walk from hotels, huts and camp sites, who'd risk it on a busy weekend? First 3 buses straight past the stop, full...don't get on the crag 'til midday? Nah...I'd drive to a Gateway to be sure of catching a bus. If everyone does that, the overall vehicle mileage in the park *won't* decrease.
It may or may not be the *best* point, but it's one of many. I've been trying to pick as many holes as possible in the thing rather than just concentrate on one or two points.
There's nothing in the document about intermediate stops outside the gateway towns. If they do put stops in, near enough to walk from hotels, huts and camp sites, who'd risk it on a busy weekend? First 3 buses straight past the stop, full...don't get on the crag 'til midday? Nah...I'd drive to a Gateway to be sure of catching a bus. If everyone does that, the overall vehicle mileage in the park *won't* decrease.
It may or may not be the *best* point, but it's one of many. I've been trying to pick as many holes as possible in the thing rather than just concentrate on one or two points.
In reply to Rob Naylor: This was my point before I was insulted by Tyler, have a bus service and long stay car parks (pay)as well.
If you want to use a bus then do, if you stay or camp near the pick up point great.
We should have a choice.
And Tyler how do you get to Wales and Scotland - WALK!
Stu
If you want to use a bus then do, if you stay or camp near the pick up point great.
We should have a choice.
And Tyler how do you get to Wales and Scotland - WALK!
Stu
In reply to Ricardo:
Not everyone wants to RUN round the Snowdon Horseshoe. Some of us might also have family commitments that restrict 8.00 starts. When I've walked the Glyders from the Llanberis side, to catch the bus back becomes a logistical nightmare. Three different bus journeys (which must start at around 5.00 pm in order to catch the last connection to Llanberis) £3.20 poorer and nearly two hours later you get back to Llanberis. Not to mention the odd occasion in winter when we've had to wait for 50 minutes in the p****** rain in Capel Curig because they can't integrate a simple bus timetable!
Anyway, does Llanberis and the other proposed "GATEWAY" areas want all the traffic and pollution generated by this major concentration of visitors. Isn't it better to share it out a bit? We also need to STOP comparing Snowdonia with the Lake District - we just haven't got their visitor number problems.
Not everyone wants to RUN round the Snowdon Horseshoe. Some of us might also have family commitments that restrict 8.00 starts. When I've walked the Glyders from the Llanberis side, to catch the bus back becomes a logistical nightmare. Three different bus journeys (which must start at around 5.00 pm in order to catch the last connection to Llanberis) £3.20 poorer and nearly two hours later you get back to Llanberis. Not to mention the odd occasion in winter when we've had to wait for 50 minutes in the p****** rain in Capel Curig because they can't integrate a simple bus timetable!
Anyway, does Llanberis and the other proposed "GATEWAY" areas want all the traffic and pollution generated by this major concentration of visitors. Isn't it better to share it out a bit? We also need to STOP comparing Snowdonia with the Lake District - we just haven't got their visitor number problems.
In reply to Rob Naylor:
OK OK, point taken but if it were to be carefully thought out (unlikeley I know) an improved public transport system coupled with closing parking could work well. Its about time we strated treating our National Parks with more respect. As for closing the Pass, with access for locals only say, why not? All you can hear at the weekend is traffic noise and see rows of glinting windscreens.
To gain significant environmnetal benefits needs good planning and self sacrifice so if you're staying in Capel Curig go and climb in the Nant Ffrancon..if you want to climb in the pass stay in Llandberis.
But anyway its all academic... as this initiative, as is the case in most environmental planning, is not joined up to complmentary measures.
OK OK, point taken but if it were to be carefully thought out (unlikeley I know) an improved public transport system coupled with closing parking could work well. Its about time we strated treating our National Parks with more respect. As for closing the Pass, with access for locals only say, why not? All you can hear at the weekend is traffic noise and see rows of glinting windscreens.
To gain significant environmnetal benefits needs good planning and self sacrifice so if you're staying in Capel Curig go and climb in the Nant Ffrancon..if you want to climb in the pass stay in Llandberis.
But anyway its all academic... as this initiative, as is the case in most environmental planning, is not joined up to complmentary measures.
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