UKC

I've just read something that suggests it has nothing to do with the area being hilly. Anyone know for sure how the Peak District got its name?

In reply to Tiggs:

Something to do with the 'Peac' people who inhabited the area many moons ago, I think.

In reply to Tiggs: maybe the author of this book might be able to help . . . .

http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0094754209/qid=1098178537/ref=sr_8...

In reply to rich:

Yes, perhaps... funny that there are no reviews.

Looks like both buyers have put their copies back on the market though!

Sorry, just a joke.

In reply to rich:

We've discussed this here several times, eg;

http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=68086&v=1#912411

A common fallacy is that the area was named after some people called the Peac, when the reverse is the case.

In reply to Bruce Hooker:

My Peak book is now out of print. The only book of mine that is still in print is my Cuillin book - you will find several reviews of it on Amazon.

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

natch!

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

What I've just read is that the district got its name from the millstones that were quarried there. The millstones were known as 'peaks'. Is that correct?

In reply to Tiggs: Theres a pub in Castleton called the Peaks Inn, Im suprised no ones been up and pulled of the "s"

In reply to Tiggs: Can't believe you don't know this one. Gordon tells us the answer at least a week. Something to do with the werdiellawi tribe of pigmies taking a 'peak' over the long grass by standing on each others shoulders. Dates back to when the peak was savana prior to the last ice age.

In reply to Iain Ridgway: Probable stuck on there by FH.

In reply to Tiggs:

No, utterly and very amusingly wrong!

In reply to Gordon Stainforth: go on, tell us again, i couldn't get to the thread you posted 'cos it was a rockfax one and it didn't realise i was registered

In reply to Gordon Stainforth: Thanks. I did wonder - couldn't quite see why a millstone would be called a 'peak' save that it came from 'The Peak'.

In reply to Iain Ridgway:

The pub is clearly named after genuine peaks. The names of a pub needn't represent the surroundings though. When was the last time you saw any red lions near a pub called the red lion?

In reply to rich:

This was the answer I gave in that thread:

'Pecsaetan' means the (Anglo-Saxon) 'Settlers of the Pec', the Celtic name for the area we now call the Peak. And, contrary to what some pundits claim, Peak does mean 'pointy/peaked' and has exactly the same derivation as the word Pic in Europe (eg. the Pyrennees and France). Also a whole lot of other anglo-saxon and norse words have a similar origin eg. pick, peck, pike, spike, prick, beak.

In reply to Gordon Stainforth: ta

In reply to Gordon Stainforth: We so nearly had the Prick District then?

In reply to Richard Bradley:

Yes, very nearly.

We still don't have an answer to the original question. Gordon just says that the people were named after the area (Pec in Celtic). So why did the area get this name?

In reply to Philip:

The best guess is that, to the Celts, who came out of lowland north/central Europe, is was very 'Peaky' country.

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

So not named after the women's Cotswold Morris dancers then?

http://www.pecsaetan.co.uk/

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
Why do you think it was the Celts who named it, and not the Saxons? It seems likely enough that angles or saxons whose forbears came from Denmark and Friesia and northern Germany via East Anglia and Lincolnshire might be impressed by the hilliness, but the Celts had been in Britain long enough to know about more spectacular landscapes.

In reply to Tiggs: Bleaklow is the best name ever... It's both Bleak and Low!

In reply to Richard J:

The Celts were there long before the Saxons. Almost all the names of the main geographical features, particularly the rivers, have Celtic origins.

In reply to Tiggs: simon will know we always get bored with Peak tourist info when going to the crag from him

In reply to Andrew Emery:

There's a High Low too. Low actually means a prominent hill that was also a sacred burial ground.

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
But why would the Celts think it was particularly hilly? I'm sure you know that the old ideas that the Celts swept across Europe and invaded Britain from the east in the way the Saxons did have long since been abandoned.

In reply to Andrew Emery:

where Low means Hill in whatever language it was originally named in.

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
And all the examples of Peak/Bec/Pike placename elements you gave are from germanic or romance languages. Is there anything like it in a celtic language?

In reply to Richard J:

They didn't invade, they settled over hundreds of years. The fact remains that they called the area peaky, perhaps in comparison with eastern england. Who knows?

In reply to Tiggs:
Look at the Welsh as this is supposed to be one of the oldest european Languages .

In reply to Gordon Stainforth: Like arbor low? cloud means high place too.

In reply to Richard J:

Yes, it is believed by many experts to have a Celtic origin. That is what I said earlier.

In reply to Andrew Emery:

I think Clud has a Norse origin.

In reply to Flibble:

I haven't got a Welsh dictionary, but I've got an Irish one. They have the word pice, meaning peak.

In reply to Adders:

I am the font of alot of usless knowledge that has to be said!

Tiggs:

The villiage Grindleford comes from the word Grindstone (and a ford)

Whancliffe & Yarncliffe also come from the name Querns which were grindstones.

seen some piccys of Yarncliffe while it was being worked with the stones - apparently it was the best stone in the Area.

Gordon - check out my dads exhibition in Grindleford church about the past in Gford - its excellent!

Si

In reply to Tiggs:
The actual reason why the peak district is called the peak district is lost in the annuls of time it is certainly a derivative of other words probably Norse, Angle, Saxon, Celtic or all of them as times change. Look at the Bowderstone in the Lake District. Called the bowder by the locals a derivative of boulder and the tourist add the stone.!!!

In reply to Simon: did u see bill oddy in that family tree prog in grindleford?

In reply to Flibble: where may I visit this Annuls of Time of which you speak? For I have lost many things in my lifetime, and it occurs to me that this is the obvious place to start looking for them. Does it have a Lost Property Office, or should I just pin a notice by the entrance?

In reply to Simon:

OK, will do, next time I'm that way.

In reply to Adders:

I saw the Bill Oddy thang - but not in Gford - where was he / what was he doin?

s

In reply to Vertically challenged :
It's the same place they keep the meaning of life the world and everything. Turn left as Uranus.

In reply to Simon: vivsiting bill in the local pub a distant relative he just found out and seeing where his anscestors used to live and farm....

In reply to Iain Ridgway:

The pub USED to be called The Peak Hotel (as is painted on the roof!) and was fairly recently renamed to 'The Peaks'...

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

So why are the Downs called the Downs and not the Ups?

In reply to Alison Stockwell :
Could be to do with Ducks during the last Ice Age. But that is too simple for this forum.

In reply to Adders:

That wasn't Grindleford!

In reply to Alison Stockwell:

According to a book of placenames I have, it comes from Dun, another OE word for a hill.

In reply to Simon: u sure? im sure they said it was. maybe i heard it wrong????

In reply to Tiggs:

So to be clear, if I have understood this erudite discussion, it's called the "Peak" district because there are "Peaks" there.

Isn't that what we all thought in the first place?

In reply to Flibble:
Welsh is far from being one of the oldest European languages. You have to go to the Basque country for that. Gaelic is older than Welsh.

As for the Peak if you have spent days trundling over the flat lands of South East England then the Peak is bound to look pretty hilly.

In reply to Duncan Bourne:

Exactly, they were almost certainly calling it peaked compared with othre parts of England further south and east.

Re Basque country: many of the peaks in the Pyrennees are called Pic or Pico.

In reply to Andrew Emery:

Sorry "Cloud" does not mean high place it means "border" as in Hen Cloud meaning "High Border" and which marked the old Staffordshire/ Derbyshire border. Like wise Bosley Cloud

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
I have been lead to believe that the Basque language goes back to the stone age and is one of the earliest languages around. Could be a root language for quite a few more recent ones

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

and a good deal more besides (with thanks to Google):

alcor: hill
alcarria: high-flat plateau with little vegetation.
aguja: jagged peak
altiplanicie: extensive high plateau
altiplano: synonym of altiplanicie
altozano: small hill
arista: ridge; arête
cerrajón: steep, high cerro.
cerrejón: small cerro.
cerro: isolated hill
cima: summit
colina: hill
collado: highland; hill; mountain pass
cornisa: ridge; clifftop; crag.
cordillera: mountain range
cresta: ridge; arête; crest
crestón: crag; small crest.
cuerda: ridge of peaks
cuesta: slope
cueto: isolated, craggy, cone-shaped hill
declive: slope
derrumbe: cliff (off which it is easy to fall)
desgalgadero: steep scree slope; cliff
despeñadero: cliff; precipice.
escarpa: escarpment; scarp; slope
estribaciones: foothills; spurs
estribo: spur
farallón: cliff, headland, outcrop
flanco: flank
galayo: jagged rock sticking out from a mountainous area
hacho: large prominent hill; beacon hill.
loma: hill; low ridge.
macizo: massif.
meseta: extensive, flat or gently-undulating land higher than surrounding areas.
moheda: high hill with scrub vegetation
monte: hills; mountains; hill
muela: mound; steep hill
otero: hill, viewpoint
pena (Gal.): crag
penya (Cat.): crag
peña: cliff; crag
peñalar: peñascal
peñascal: rocky place; rocky hill.
peñón: mass of rock. El Peñón – the Rock (of Gibraltar)
picacho: jagged peak
pico: peak
pitón: horn
pueyo: isolated hill rising above a plain
risco: cliff; crag
sierra: hill range; hills; sierra
teso: low flat-topped hill
tolmo: large rock; crag
tozal: summit of a hill from which there is a view of the surrounding area

In reply to tb:

What a fabulously rich list of mountain words! Interesting to see 'piton' in there as a horn. I never knew that was its origin.

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

PS. I don't think in English we have many more than these, do we? -

peak, mountain, mount, hill, down, cloud, low, pinnacle, needle, rock, beacon, top, tor, height, heights.

Any more? Stack I think is Celtic or maybe Norse??

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

Welsh is a form of Gaelic the brittage language is very similar. Apparently Gaelic was once the European language.

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
It is amazing isn't it. Like inuit and different words for snow:

Aluiqqaniq : Snowdrift on a steep hill, overhanging on top.
Aniuk : Snow for drinking water.
Aniuvak : Snow remaining in holes.
Aput : Snow on the ground (close to the generic Snow)
Aqilluqqaaq : Fresh and soggy snow
Auviq : snow brick, to build igloo
Ijaruvak : Melted snow, turned in ice crystals.
Isiriartaq : Falling snow, yellow or red.
Kanangniut : Snowdrift made by North-East wind.
Katakartanaq : Crusty snow, broken by steps.
Kavisilaq : snow hardened by rain or frost
Kinirtaq : wet and compact snow.
Masak : wet snow, saturated.
Matsaaq : snow in water
Maujaq : deep and soft snow, where it's difficult to walk.
Mingullaut : thin powder snow, enters by cracks and covers objects.
Mituk : small snow layer on the water of a fishing hole.
Munnguqtuq : compressed snow which began to soften in spring.
Natiruviaqtuq: snow blasts on the ground.
Niggiut : snowdrift with South-east wind
Niummak : hard waving snow staying on ice fields
Pingangnuit : snowdrift made by south-west wind
Piqsiq : snow lift by wind. Blizzard.
Pukak : dry snow crystals, like sugar powder
Qannialaaq : light falling snow
Qanniq : falling snow
Quiasuqaq : re-frozen snow surface, making crust.
Qiqiqralijarnatuq: snow when walked on.
Uangniut : snowdrift made by north-west wind.
Uluarnaq : round snowdrift
Uqaluraq : taper snowdrift

Although there is much discussion about how many of these are real and how many are invented/hoaxes/derivative terms see Qanniq (falling snow) and Quannialaaq (light falling snow) by way of example

In reply to Flibble:

Yes, that's more or less right, as I understand as well.

In reply to tb:

Not so amazing when you think how large a part snow plays in their lives!

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
more mountain words:

Mount, mountain; hill alto, butte, monticle, fell, knap; cape; headland, foreland; promontory; ridge, hog's back, dune; rising ground, vantage ground; down; moor, moorland; Alp; uplands, highlands; heights; (summit); knob, loma, pena, picacho, tump; knoll, hummock, hillock, barrow, mound, mole; steeps, bluff, cliff, craig, tor, peak, pike, clough; escarpment, edge, ledge, brae; dizzy height

In reply to Flibble:

The British Isles were connected by tribal ties to what is now France. The continental Druids, in particular, looked to these islands as a sort of spiritual source-land. And the sourciest part of all was Anglesey. The Romans had a bit of trouble with hoards of religious fanatics who defied them on the island until a group of soldiers swam across the Menai Straights and took them from behind. This was most painful as the warriors were naked, apart from the woad!

In reply to Tiggs:
It’s amazing how such a simple question can become so diverse.

In reply to Bruce Hooker:

You memory of 1066 and All That is pretty good

In reply to tb:

OK, so we can add: ridge, pike, hog's back, uplands, highlands, summit, knob, knoll, barrow and edge.

alto, butte, monticle, Alp, loma, pena, picacho, and tump are foreign.

craig and brae are Celtic/Gaelic

fell and knap are Norse.

And, since when was a cape, headland, foreland, promontory, moor, moorland, hummock, mound, bluff, a cliff, escarpment, clough, or a ledge, a mountain or a hill?

Rising ground, vantage ground, hillock, mole, dizzy height are just descriptions. I've never seen them in names. And I've never heard of 'steeps'.

In reply to Flibble:
I know, its one of the things that I like best about this forum, it can be a real learning experience. There is so much knowledge sitting behind those computer screens.

In reply to Duncan Bourne:


"Hen Cloud to the south rises to 1,350 ft. (410 m.). Its name means a steep rock (henge clud) in Old English." English Place-Names Elements vol i

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

I have, since, read it in more original sources!

In reply to Tiggs:

We had a similar quite interesting discussion about the word 'rock' the other day. I don't know if you saw it.

http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=102817&v=1#1406055

In reply to Kipper:

Yes, I see I was wrong about Cloud. Confused in my mind I think from Thorpe Cloud (the thorpe part definitely being Norse).

Incidentally, Hen Cloud is often taken to have been derived from Hern Cloud (from Herne the Hunter/God). The Roaches area is absolutely full of old pagan god/goddesses' names.

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
You can add "Pen" to your list of hill words - found it very amusing that Pendle Hill is really a corruption of Hill Hill Hill

In reply to Adders:

Is Simon related to Bill Oddie ?

I can see the resemblence and it might explain a few things !

In reply to Chris the Tall:

Well, Pen is pre-English i.e Celtic again. Same route a Ben, Beinn (and Pin in Ireland - as in The 12 Pins)

In reply to Chris the Tall: did you know that simon went to a ladies school? he can walk with a book on his head perfectly now.

In reply to Adders:
I'm now getting an image of him in a Little Britain sketch

In reply to Chris the Tall: what the im the only gay in the villiage or im a lady doncha know one both apt.

In reply to Kipper:

I think they may be wrong in that but I can't find my sources at the moment

In reply to Duncan Bourne:

They are right about clud; but possibly wrong about Henge (see above). Henge is only one of several possible explanations. There was a small stone circle at the Bawdstone between Hen Cloud and the Roaches, but never a Henge on Hen Cloud itself.

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
Gordon, we've found loads of great names for mountains but I still don't see anything that confirms your view that Peak comes from a celtic name. The pre-saxon locals certainly spoke the language that turned into welsh, not the q-celtic that turned into gaelic, and I can't think of any welsh word for a hill that has anything in common with peak:
Moel
Mynydd
Carn
Pen
Craig
...
have I missed any?

Also, I believe the current consensus is that the people who lived in the peak district when the romans invaded were basically the same people who were here in the Bronze and neolithic ages, who had simply adopted their culture to new innovations and new challenges (like climate change). Whether there were any celtic invasions at all is now pretty debatable, but the only plausible candidates with real evidence of continental influence are the Yorkshire Wolds and the South-East.

In reply to Richard J:

The similarity with the Celtic word pic suggests that the Anglo-Saxon word Peac is derived from it. It is true that the Welsh don't seem to have the word, the nearest equivalent to Pec and Bec being Pen (cf Gaelic Ben) and I suppose Crib (which you missed from your list! Also Glyder.)

Quite why there should be such scepticism re. the possible Celtic origin of the word Peak, I don't know, when, as I say, most of the names of the geographical features (pre widescale settlement) are Celtic.

Other Celtic hill names in or near the Peak: Chevin, Crich, Mam, and Kinder (it is thought); and as I said above, all the rivers (I think without exception)

In reply to Richard J:


No, as I said earlier, also, there was no Celtic 'invasion' as such, just gradual settlement. It had a lot to do with climate change starting about 500 BC when the weather became much colder driving people out from Central Europe towards gentler, more maritime climates.

Many of the Celts who settled on the western shores of the British Isles came by sea eg. via Brittany and Spain.

Of course the theory is that the Celts themselves came to Europe from India originally ...

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
Yes, Crib is a good one (literally a comb, as in cock-comb). And, as you say, Chevin from Cefn. But still you've told us nothing that's plausibly derived from peak!

You might want to look at "The Atlantic Celts" by Simon James for the case against there having been any Celtic migrations at all, at least in the first millenium BC.

In reply to Duncan Bourne:

EPNS seems to be the definitive source until the wasters at Notts Uni get past the letter B.

In reply to Richard J:

I think you mean, what it's derived from. I have said from a pre-anglo-saxon word 'pic' or 'pec'. It is indeed only one theory, and there is no conclusive proof (except the pre-existence of very similar pre anglo-saxon words in Europe and Ireland.)

Yes, I would like to look at this. I'm not quite sure how if affects the argument, if the Britons did not, after all, migrate from Europe. All the evidence is that they were racially the same as the people that were later called the Welsh, and very similar to the Cornish Bretons, and Scottish and Irish Gaels, and spoke a very similar "celtic" language.

In reply to Richard J:

This is from Websters Dictionary, 1913:

Peak, n. [OE. pek, AS. peac, perh of Celtic origin; cf.
Ir. peac a sharp-pointed thing. Cf. {Pike}.]
1. A point; the sharp end or top of anything that terminates
in a point; as, the peak, or front, of a cap. ``Run your
beard into a peak.'' --Beau. & Fl.

Source: http://www.hyperdictionary.com/dictionary/peak

And this from:http://21.1911encyclopedia.org/P/PI/PIKE.htm

PIKE, a word which, with its collateral forms pick and peak, has as its basic meaning that of anything pointed or tapering to a point. The ultimate etymology is much disputed, and the interrelation of the collaterals is very confused. In Old English there are two forms (pie), one with a long and the other with a short vowel, which give pike and pick respectively. The first form gave in the 15th century the variant peak, first with reference to the peaked shoes then fashionable, pekyd schone. In Romanic languages are found Fr. pie., Span. pico, Ital. piccare, to pierce, &c. There are also similar words in Welsh, Cornish and Breton. The Scandinavian forms, e.g. Swed. and Nor. p1k, are probably taken from English. While some authorities take the Celtic as the original, others look to Latin for the source. Here the woodpecker, picus, is referred to, or more probably the root seen in spice, ear of corn, and spine, prickle (English spike, spine). The current differentiation in meanings attached to pike, pick and peak are more or less clearly marked, though in dialects they may vary. (I) Pike:


And this from: http://www.benoticed.co.uk/01/01-THE%20FOREST%20OF%20HIGH%20PEAK.htm

The names of the two early parishes, Hope and Glossop, suggest a Celtic (British) origin as does Kinder, probably from the British Cyndery, a chief or head ruler, and the Peak itself from pig or pic, meaning a top or peak.

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

The Anglo-Saxon chronical says the original inhabitants of the British Isles were Armenians! Gave me quite a turn when I read it - the wife's family are Armenian.

In reply to Bruce Hooker:

Well, at least it supports the central European thesis!

In reply to Tiggs:

Because it's thin at one end...much much thicker in the middle and thin at the other end.

Apologies to Monty Python.

In reply to Bruce Hooker:


Yes, it’s obvious, and has never given me pause for thought, despite the controversial subject of whether those rounded summits are true peaks. The real mystery lies in the original application of the words “The” and “District”, and I am patiently awaiting enlightenment from Gordon.

Near me there’s a ripple in the plain called Bald Mountain, rising 90m above sea level. This is the North European Plain, and you can imagine the astonishment if one of those old plains dwellers came across a real mountain for the first time.

In reply to Duncan Bourne: If the Hen in Hen Cloud means the same as it does in Welsh doesn't that make it "Old Border"? A much more interesting name.

Low meaning high ground is rendered "Law" once you get further north and east from Bleaklow.

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
Gordon, I don't have a problem with the idea that there are quite a lot of placenames of celtic origin floating around the Peak; it's just your theory that the name The Peak itself is of Celtic origin that seems implausible to me. To be convinced I'd need to see a welsh word that looked similar; I don't know any but that doesn't mean there aren't any. I'll ask my father next time I'm passing since he knows the language well and has a reasonably complete reference library about it. Don't forget that Gaelic, although from the same language family as Brythonic/Welsh, is a very different language, and if it's picked up Pic as a word for a hill it's quite likely that it acquired it from Norse, given the huge Viking influence on Ireland.

In favour of the theory that it was the Anglians who first called the place the Peak is the fact that the Paecsete were the most northern branch of the Mercians, who occupied the Midlands down as far south as the Thames and west as far as the edge of shropshire. In that context it's pretty natural to regard their territory as being particularly hilly compared to the Midlands plain. On the other hand, the Pre-Roman conquest Britons who lived here would have been associated with the Brigantes (I think) whose territory included lots of bits of Yorkshire in comparison to which the Peak would have been not especially hilly.

I took a look again at your book last night (which I like a lot, I should say, and I account for two sales because I gave one to my father too), and it does strike me that you seem to have a very hostile view of the Anglo-Saxons and a very romantically positive view of the Britons. Being Welsh I don't of course take any offense at this, but it does seem odd to me that the English seem to hold their ancestors in such disregard. One specific point in your book that does seem very arguable is the suggestion that it was the Anglo-Saxons who brought Christianity to the Peak (allowing you to couple your very hostile attitude to christianity with a negative view of the Anglo-Saxons). But the best evidence for the late survival of a British statelet in the Hope Valley region is the existence of the Eccles place name element, which means church (latin ecclesia, welsh eglwys).

In reply to Richard J:

Original spelling was Pique District, so named after disputes between indigenous Celts and invading Romans over re placing of chockstones

In reply to Richard J:

I'll answer this in an hour or two: you have you have raised a lot of issues to be addressed ...!

In reply to Richard J:

>Gordon, I don't have a problem with the idea that there are quite a lot of placenames of celtic origin floating around the Peak; it's just your theory that the name The Peak itself is of Celtic origin that seems implausible to me.

It is not my theory; I am simply repeating what has been said by many experts, and I gave three examples yesterday taken straight from a Google search on the internet. Also, many dictionaries, but not the Oxford, eg. the 1912 Webster entry I referred to yesterday. The 3-vol 'Third International' Webster's Dictionary (1981 ed.), which I have, has the following entry under 'pike':

ME from OE pic, prob. of Celt origin; akin to ScGael pic pickaxe, Bret pic, IrGael pice pitchfork, W pig sharp point, beak.

>To be convinced I'd need to see a welsh word that looked similar; I don't know any but that doesn't mean there aren't any.

So, there you have your answer, above, re a Welsh word!

>I'll ask my father next time I'm passing since he knows the language well and has a reasonably complete reference library about it. Don't forget that Gaelic, although from the same language family as Brythonic/Welsh, is a very different language, and if it's picked up Pic as a word for a hill it's quite likely that it acquired it from Norse, given the huge Viking influence on Ireland.

It is true that the Vikings had the same word, but so did most countries in Europe. Also, we know for a fact that the Anglo-Saxon settlers called the Peak, Peac, and themselves the Peacsetna - which of course predates the Viking invasions by 300 years. So that disposes of a Viking origin of the Peak district name.

The whole question of unravelling the Brythonic/Welsh and Goidelic/Gaelic (P-Celt and Q-Celt) is fraught with problems, not least being the fact that between 450 and 600 Brittonic split up into three distinct forms, Welsh, Cornish and Breton. The P of the P-Celts became B, while B became V etc etc. The name of the Britons itself reflects this, earliest recorded inhabitants being the Preteni, referred to Pytheas in 323 BC as the inhabitants of the Pretannic Isles. (Other examples are: Pen and Ben for a mountain; peak and beak, beac also being OE for a ridge or lookout point) Another complication: the Goidelic having no P (it was always a B sound anyway, however it was spelt!) was typicallly rendered in Latin by QU, and handed down by the Old Irish and Old English as a C. I wonder, therefore, whether the name of the village Crich, nr Matlock, is a remnant of the old word for Peak? It has exactly the same meaning: rocky hill, and it's possible that it's closely related to/ is the same word as Pic, Pike and Prick.

I believe that the word Peak is Romano-British at the very latest (from Latin picus, but almost certainly based on an earlier Celtic word Pic or Pec)

>In favour of the theory that it was the Anglians who first called the place the Peak is the fact that the Paecsete were the most northern branch of the Mercians, who occupied the Midlands down as far south as the Thames and west as far as the edge of shropshire. In that context it's pretty natural to regard their territory as being particularly hilly compared to the Midlands plain. On the other hand, the Pre-Roman conquest Britons who lived here would have been associated with the Brigantes (I think) whose territory included lots of bits of Yorkshire in comparison to which the Peak would have been not especially hilly.

Perhaps the word Pic lurks in the name for the Brigantes, too?! i.e the Pricantes??? for reasons given above.

You are right about the Brigantes occupying the whole area of the Peak as well as southern Yorkshire. My researches indicate that they occupied all the high ground east of the Rother (border river, is one translation) and down south as far as Harboro and Crich on either side of the Derwent valley. Their inner sanctuary appears to have been around the Edale valley, Mam Tor, Castleton, Peak Forest, Mam Tor and Bretton Clough (which historically became one of the final enclaves) - the area in other words that later became the Royal Forest of the Peak, surrounded on its fringes by lots of angry, outlawed Brettons and dispossessed Anglo-Saxons.

I'll reply to the second half of your post - about early Christianity - in separately. I need a lunchbreak, and probably better to give this out in doses before I drive everybody mad, if I have not done so already!

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

The dictionary I have at hand (New Oxford Dictionary of English) derives ‘pike’ in different ways for the weapon and for the hills of the Lake District:
weapon: from French pique, from piquer, from pic; compare OE pic
hills: apparently of Scandinavian origin; compare West Norwegian dialect pik, ‘pointed mountain’.

For peak in the sense of top of a mountain, my Oxford Etymology dictionary dates the origin of this usage as 17 C, and derives it from picked, from pick, from OE pic, ‘point, prick’.

Meanwhile, what do you make of this quote from the Online Etymology Dictionary? “The Peak in Derbyshire is OE Peaclond, apparently a reference to elf-denizen Peac, 'Puck'."

If we now look up Puck, we get OE puca, from Old Norse puki, ‘mischievous demon’.

BTW Polish for pike is pika.

In reply to Witkacy:
You've really thrown the cat amongst the pigeons now! And of course, the Irish have their pookas too.

In reply to Richard J:

Part 2 of my reply:

>I took a look again at your book last night (which I like a lot, I should say, and I account for two sales because I gave one to my father too), and it does strike me that you seem to have a very hostile view of the Anglo-Saxons and a very romantically positive view of the Britons. Being Welsh I don't of course take any offense at this, but it does seem odd to me that the English seem to hold their ancestors in such disregard.

Oh, dear. It is true that the book, being in effect a potted history of the Peak, simplified and over-dramatised the story; but I stand by most of my comments, and I wanted to make it as balanced as possible, and not just to give a totally one-sided 'glorious English' view. I'll come back to that shortly.

>One specific point in your book that does seem very arguable is the suggestion that it was the Anglo-Saxons who brought Christianity to the Peak (allowing you to couple your very hostile attitude to christianity with a negative view of the Anglo-Saxons). But the best evidence for the late survival of a British statelet in the Hope Valley region is the existence of the Eccles place name element, which means church (latin ecclesia, welsh eglwys).

Yes, this was a definite over-simplification. However ...

There is no doubt that Christianity first came to the Peak in a very gentle, humanist, Pelagian way in late Roman times (Pelagius himself rejected completely the idea of 'Original Sin'), and that a very strange form of it - a hybrid of pagan fertility rights and the new Xtian idea of 'redemption of sins' - persisted in a few areas in Romano-British times at the end of the Roman occupation, up to the arrival of the (pagan) Anglo-Saxons. As you say, Eccles points to such areas: particularly the Ecclesbourne valley, just south of Wirksworth.

There is, however, extremely little evidence that anything resembling Augustinian christianity existed in any wide scale way. It seems more to have been an indulgence of the Roman aristocracy, and the well-educated. The clergy were in effect new style Druids, "wizards strengthened by the power of a Deity mightier than the ancestral gods". (Morris, Age of Arthur, p.374)

There seems to have been no widespread conversion to Christianity until after the Synod of Whitby in 664, and the establishment of Wilfred in York. Mercia under King Penda was staunchly pagan, but his son Paeda became a Christian when he married the daughter of the Northumbrian King Oswy (the Northumbrian Royal Family having converted to Xtianity in 627). Paeda then came to Repton with four monks, one of whom, Diuma, became the first Bishop of Mercia in about 655.

Just what a strange form of Christianity it was at this time can be seen from a number of archaelogical remains. The Benty Grange helmet (thought to date from shortly after Christianity came to Mercia in 655 shows contradictory Christian and pagan emblems - a silver Latin cross, and a boar, sacred to the god Freyr); and the Wirksworth stone (in one of the earliest Christian churches in the Peak district), thought to be the coffin lid of the monk Betti, who came to Repton with Paeda appears to contain a number of pagan symbols as well as overtly Christian imagery.

Just how far Christianity spread in the Peak beyond the main monastic centres is very much open to question. All the evidence is that ancient pagan practises continued in many villages well into the 17th century and the arrival of Wesleyanism. Even then the Peakrils of Matlock Bath (so splendidly described by Daniel Defoe, on his 'Tour') stubbornly resisted it. I quote one in my book: "Why do you talk thus of Faith? Stuff, nonsense!" The area around Hathersage and Castleton particularly remained a refuge of Catholicism and paganism for many centuries (and indeed, all kinds of dissenters, renegades and revolutionaries.)

One of the best accounts of the survival of pagan traditions is Pennethorne Hughes 'Witchcraft' (Pelican), in which he argues that there was a 'widespread survival of palaeolithic emotive religion ... the royal households might be Christian, but the people were pagan.' (pp.50-51)

>it does seem odd to me that the English seem to hold their ancestors in such disregard.

Not the case at all. Just, as I say, a case of trying to paint a balanced picture, considering always how it might have appeared to the indigenous people rather than the invader. I myself am a mixture of Anglo-Saxon, Irish, Italian and Swiss (ie. about 90 per cent Anglo-Saxon but with some Celtic and Romanch streaks in there too!) If you are interested, my father has written a very detailed, 528-page, history of our family: 'Not Found Wanting [that's the family motto!]: a history of the Stainforths, an Anglo-Saxon Family'. I have just made a website about it:

www.stainforth-history.co.uk

In reply to Tiggs: 100

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
Good work for finding a welsh word pig. Do you know of any instance of it being used in the metaphorical sense for a pointy hill, rather than in its dictionary sense of a point or snout? Now I think of it a place name called Yr Pigau comes into my mind but I can't think where it is.

I don't think the development of Brythonic is as complicated as you say. As you say, an early name for Britain was the Pretannic Isles but in Welsh this is still Ynys Prydein; it was only the Romans who changed the P to B. (First consonants in welsh are highly mutable in any case). Welsh, Cornish and Breton are essentially mutually intelligible, and they just look more different written down than they are because they use different orthographic conventions. Significantly, the first surviving Welsh doesn't come from Wales, or Cornwall, or Brittany; it's from Northern England - Aneirin's poem about the defeat of the Northern British at the hands of the Northumbrians at Catterick. This is archaic but much closer to modern welsh than anglo-saxon is to modern english.

I don't think there's any evidence of any Goidelic language being spoken anywhere in Britain apart from those places that were settled by Irish invaders - i.e. the Scottish Highlands and Islands, the Lleyn peninsular, Pembrokeshire and possibly Cornwall. So I can't buy your explanation for Crich.

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
I'd like to take issue with your view on this. I don't think that (a) the evidence that "celtic christianity" was particularly gentle and humanist is at all strong, or that (b) the evidence of pagan survivals into the Christian era is nearly as strong as people thought 50 years ago. For a comprehensive demolition of authorities like Pennethorne Hughes see "The pagan religions of the ancient British Isles" by Ronald Hutton.

In reply to Witkacy:

The OED seems remarkably weak on this; particularly when compared with some other dictionaries, like the 3-vol Websters mentioned above.

Hopeless. We've already established that there was a Latin word picus for woodpecker, and a Celtic/Welsh word pig (pronounced virtually with a c) meaning sharp point, beak. The Romans also had the word pica, for a jay or magpie, and picea, a spruce-fir.


This again is completely wrong (at least with elf connotation), because the whole concept of an elf (deriding the pagan gods) was a late 16th/early 17th century development cf. the great horned god of the Peak, Hob reduced to (a) hobgoblin, Robin Hood to Robin Goodfellow, the Green Man to Jack-in-the-Green, and the Peak people, Peakrills. Similarly ancient barrows became 'fairy mounds'. The prehistoric barrow south of Mam Tor became known as Elves' Hill (Eldon Hill)

My Websters Dict says that puca is OE akin to ON, puki.

There is a definite link between Puck, Buck and the Horned God. In Derbyshire: Buck's Stone (Buxton) and the Buck in the Park emblem (cf the Ram in the Thicket, Bull in the Thorn - I think this is all to do with the ancient gods of Aries and Taurus losing their dominance with the precession of the equinoxes, but that, as they say, is another subject!)

In the wonderful Lost Language of Symbolism (1912), Harold Bayley discusses the word Buck in the very same paragraph as the word Peak. He connects it with the French bouc, he-goat, and Eqyptian bauk, a hawk, Bacchus (who appeared as a goat), and Pan the horned god. ((Do I see Celtic Pen lurking there GS??)) Out of all this Bayley suggests that Peak contains the notion of the Great Father, and points out how the same word, Pic, appears on the continent eg. Pic du Midi


Not surprised!

In reply to Richard J:

It would be very interesting to track Yr Pigau down. Quite a lot comes up on Google under 'pigau' but it's all in Welsh, so I can't make head or tail of it.


A 'comparative study of the Celtic languages' I've got makes it seem v complicated!


Well, it wasn't an explanation, just a thought, based purely on something I read this morning.

In reply to Tiggs: It's because of the mist which generally pervades the area. When it lifts occasionally you get the occasional peak at the scenery. If you can't spell of course. Which makes this a pretty week argument, when I come to think of it.

In reply to Richard J:

I'm arguing that, until the arrival of Christianity at Repton, the evidence for 'Celtic Christianity' (a bit of an oxymoron as it is) is almost non-existent in the Peak, accept for a handful of Eccles names. Quite what form their religion took is v open to question, and it seems highly likely that it lapsed completely with the arrival of the Anglo-Saxons.

>or that (b) the evidence of pagan survivals into the Christian era is nearly as strong as people thought 50 years ago.

Well, there is much evidence still in the form of ancient customs such as Garland Day (Oak Apple Day) at Castleton, the Angelus Bells at Matlock parish church (three tolls repeated three times), the church Clipping/Clypping at Wirksworth and Burbage near Buxton, and guising/guisering which often involved a player dressed in a sheepskin to represent Tup, the Derby Ram.

>For a comprehensive demolition of authorities like Pennethorne Hughes see "The pagan religions of the ancient British Isles" by Ronald Hutton.

I will read this with great interest, if I can get hold of it.

In reply to philyerboots:

... we will add it to the lexicon of suggested theories

In reply to David Rainsbury and Gordon:

Hen could mean "old" (as in regard to Hen Cloud) and Gordon is right about Clud meaning "rock". If the etymological origin for Cloud is Clud then obviously Hen would not be derived from the Welsh as Clud is an Anglo-Saxon word. My understanding was that Cloud (as in Hen Cloud, Bosley Cloud, Thorpe Cloud) was of a different origin similar to that of Clwyd meaning "gateway" if it was of Brythonic celt in origin then "old Gateway" would fit better. Henge is an Anglo-Saxon word meaning "Hanging, or gibbet" it is believed that Stonehenge derived its name from its similarity to a hanging gibbet. However if the word had a wider meaning then "hanging rock" would equally suit Hen Cloud. I would be interested if anyone could shed some definite light on this. Let's not forget that the Vikings also held sway in Derbyshire so there could even be a Norse interpretation

In reply to Tiggs: It was the first thing that came into someones head...

A bit like why my son is called Jack...

In reply to marie:

Jack was the first thing that came into ur mind when he was born? or first thing ever?

Id have thought he shud have been 'That Smarts a Bit'

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:


This family of words in many European languages seems in essence to refer to objects with a sharp point, and in some cases has been extended to apply to mountain tops with sharp points (but in many cases not – Polish pika is a sharp-pointed weapon, not a mountain peak). But my ‘point’ was that according to the etymology dictionaries, peak in English wasn’t used for mountain tops or other pointy landscape features until the 17th century, while pike wasn’t used in this sense before 1400.

Compare OFr pic: sharp point, spike, perhaps ultimately of Gmc or Celtic source.
OE pic: pointed object, pickaxe

I’m certainly not saying this proves that the Peak District wasn’t originally named by comparing some landscape features with sharp, pointy objects. But surely the origin of the name Peaclond is obscure, and none of the various theories can be proved.

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

The Romano Britons (Celts) were christian. The anglo-saxon invaders, were pagans. Christianity was maintained in various places despite this but was only reintoduced to the whole country a little later on by St Augustine who arrived in Sandwich (597),set up shop in Canterbury and started converting the anglo-saxon rulers of the country back to christianity.

In reply to ... everyone, more or less: I'd just like to say thank you to Gordon et al for their erudite contributions to this fascinating thread. I spent a happy hour or so yesterday afternoon looking up "Goidelic" and "Brythonic" in Wikipedia and chasing all the interesting-looking links. Unfortunately I should have been working at the time...

I also now know where the name of my school came from. Not that I'd ever really wondered about it before, but knowing the "Ecclesbourne" actually means something seems strangely reassuring.

BTW, Gordon, would you not include Well Dressing in your list of surviving pagan rituals - even though nowadays the imagery is wholly Christian?

In reply to Bruce Hooker:


The Romano-British were the final remnants of the Celts who had first come to Britain at least 500 years before the Romans. To say that they were 'christian' is a vast oversimplification. There is no archaeological evidence at all that before Christianity came to Repton in 653 that there was any organised Christian religion in the Peak District at all - no Christian symbolism anywhere. The very earliest examples are the Wirksworth Stone/Sarcophagus/Coffin Lid and the Mercian Crosses at eg. Eyam and Bakewell. They date from the late 7th century, and show a mixture of Celtic and Christian symbolism.

In reply to Martin W:



You spotted that! I deliberately left it out of my list, because although it is highly likely that it was a development of a much earlier pagan tradition related to the old spring festival of Beltaine, to my knowledge historians have found no records of it having taken place until just after the Black Death. The tradition is that the people of Tissington first dressed their five wells with flowers in May 1350 as a token of thanksgiving, since their uncontaminated spring water had spared them from the plague.

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

... and other Peak villages then adopted the practise.

In reply to Witkacy:


Yes, nothing can be proved, and, as you say, the origin of Peac remains obscure (Peaclond a slightly later anglo-saxon variation dating from about AD1000, I think). It still seems mostly likely that it was in some way related to pointy objects because of the existence of such words for pointed objects in Celtic and Roman, as we discussed yesterday. The Romans were quite capable of applying words with the pic- stem to a number of different types of pointed natural objects e.g picea, a spruce-fir, as I mentioned yesterday.

I am now looking up the earliest recorded use of Pic to describe a mountain ...

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

Why do you say "final remnants" ? Most English still have "celtic" blood .

In reply to Postmanpat:

Yes, a little bit, much diluted.

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
Well,according to the DNA evidence , about the same as the Scots and more than the West Welsh and Irish who aren't really celtic at all !

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
In relation to the question of pagan survivals in the Peak and elsewhere, Hutton in the book I mentioned above makes the important point that you need to distinguish between folklore, magic and religion. Undoubtedly the original christian proselytisers used the device of Christianising pagan festivals and folklore, we know that from written evidence. But the idea that medieval religion was, therefore, just a thin veneer of christianity on a set of enduring pagan beliefs is probably a product of Protestant propaganda rather than having a real foundation. Of course in the anti-catholic environment that existed in England from the 17th to 19th century it has suited the predominantly protestant scholars of the time to suggest that real christianity only arrived in England at the reformation. Modern catholic historians (like Eamonn Duffy, in his book "The Stripping of the Altars") argue that medieval christianity in England was, on the contrary, a religion with rich emotional appeal and a symbolism that was deeply rooted in the locale. Although there may have been some survivals of folklore with pre-christian origins, the belief system in which the folklore was rooted had long since become fully Christian. In this view, the reformation and the dissolution of the monasteries is regarded as a massive act of cultural vandalism on a par with the chinese cultural revolution.

In this view, the survival of quaint customs of the kind you mention is more a function of another fact that you correctly mention somewhere, that the Peak district in general and the Hope Valley in particular was a hotbed of recusants, with great resistance being shown to the introduction of protestantism. The lesson to draw, then, is not that paganism survived a long time in the Peak, but that the traditions of medieval catholicism were more robust here than in less remote places.

In reply to Gordon Stainforth: Thanks for the clarification re Well Dressing. Think I might have to see if I can find a copy of your book, even though my family moved away from the area more than twenty years ago and it must be nearly ten years since I last passed through.

In reply to Richard J:

Yes, my conclusions, from my reading (and I've read "The Stripping of the Altars") are very similar to your own. I think where we might differ a bit is regarding my claim that Romano-British 'christianity' was not at all widespread in the Peak, and probably relapsed completely with the arrival of the barbarians shortly after the departure of the Romans. Then, after 653, the total conversion to Christianity was a quite slow process in which the Christians adopted, as you say, all the pagan festivals, and many of their rituals (eg. the church 'clipping').

It is also interesting that in establishing their churches it was of fundamental importance always to place them right next to a sacred pagan well - typically in the Peak related to the goddesses Anu and Elian, which were then rededicated to St Ann and St Helen.

In reply to Witkacy:

Yes, this is what all the etymological dictionaries say, but I am very suspicious of it, because they simply refer to the 'first recorded instance' of the word.

It seems to me that the Cumbrian mountains called 'Pike' would have been given that name by the Norse invaders i.e long before 1400 (viz as soon as they settled their in the early 9th century AD)

It is a bit like the claim that a lot of Peak District names, e.g Robin Hood's Stride, date from 1818. Suspicious how many have that date ... Well, that was the date of the first proper Ordnance Survey map!

Takes no account of longstanding verbal traditions.


I have already mentioned that the Romans used words with the stem Pic- to refer to several kinds of natural objects (eg beaks and fir trees) and it seems quite likely they did exactly the same with pointed mountains. Furthermore, that it was word from Vulgar Latin based on a pre-existing Celtic word.

Anyhow, what is clear is that, certainly by medieval times - and almost certainly a lot, lot earlier, the word Pic/pico for a mountain was being used right across Europe where Romance languages were spoken.

The Portuguese were certainly naming mountains Pico from at least the beginning of the 15th Century (eg Pico in the Azores) and Pico de Adam in Sri Lanka (Ceylon) in the early 16th century.

My belief, for all the reasons I've mentioned in this thread above, is that this usage of 'Pic' springs from a very old tradition dating possibly from the time of the Romans, or even earlier.

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

... I meant 'oral tradition'.

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

Did you look up OE pic? It seems to be well-documented, but only in the sense of sharp pointy tools. Peac seems less well documented, except in the context of Pecsaetan or Peacland. Various web pages give peac as meaning hill or knoll (but without giving a source). I don’t know if there’s evidence that pic and peac were related. However, I’m no expert, and am sitting here at work with limited resources.

In reply to Witkacy:

Yes, I did, in the Shorter OE. Found the Websters 3-vol dictionary mentioned above more helpful.

Somewhere, ages ago (when I was doing my Peak book) I read a very interesting article relating the Anglo-Saxon words pick, peck, pike, peak, prick, beak etc. Not so surprising if they are all based on an older Celtic word. Can't find now - will have to seek out my earlier notes.

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

Related point that people seem to forget. Of course, they couldn't spell, and regional accents differed enormously.

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

There was a scholar who studied sanskrit and other languages while working for the British Raj and developed the whole theory of indo-european languages having a common origin. It would not, therefore, be very suprising to find that pic, peak and their equivalents exist in all European languages, including celtic ones (the Basque language being the older exception as has already been said).

As for christianity in the British Isles, it was widespread for the late part of the Roman period, it was the official religion by then, and gave rise to it's own particular local set of interpretations and practices. These led to much bickering between Iona, Ireland and Rome (the Pope, by then, not the emperor)... even monks' haircuts caused a lot of trouble. The Anglo-Saxon invasions put an end to much of this but didn't entirely wipe out the religion, some saxon nobles or their wives were christian even when this was a minority thing.

I can't remember the details but their is plenty in the Anglo-Saxon Chronicles, Bede, Gildas and others which are all available on the internet. Recent authors claim that the Arthurian legends come from a sort of Romano-British leader who kept the Saxons at bay just long enough to allow this to happen and thus facilitate the general reconversion to Roman Catholic christianity in the 7th century... debateable but appealing.

The following link leads to many of these intriguing texts:

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/ancient/asbook.html

In reply to Bruce Hooker:

Yes, I've often heard that ... now I'm going to have to rise to your challenge and look all that up ... ( if there's such an emoticon!

You say 'widespread'. I think it was a lot more patchy than that. Official religion for only a very short while.

>The Anglo-Saxon invasions put an end to much of this but didn't entirely wipe out the religion, some saxon nobles or their wives were christian even when this was a minority thing.

Yes, very much a minority 'aristocratic' thing.


Yes, all very important sources.

>Recent authors claim that the Arthurian legends come from a sort of Romano-British leader who kept the Saxons at bay just long enough to allow this to happen and thus facilitate the general reconversion to Roman Catholic christianity in the 7th century... debateable but appealing.

OK, but that wouldn't have been his motive!


Thanks, I hadn't seen that. Looks like an extremely useful site.

In reply to Bruce Hooker:

I haven't found any Indo-European links yet, but three Latin words that are interesting:

Apex: peak, tip
Pectus: breast
Pecus: a single head of cattle - the old horned god perhaps lurking there? (also, cp. picus, a woodpecker; also Picus, a god, father of Faunus, who was changed by Circe into a woodpecker!)

Also, more stuff from the ever wonderful, irrepressible Harold Bayley (1912):

'The French for Peacock is Paon i.e. Father-Son, and if we knock of the negligible 'cock' or 'hen', the name resolves into Pea or Pi, the Father.'

He then goes on to relate Pater with the Persian word Pidar, Sanskrit Pitar and Maori Pata, all meaning 'Parent, protector'. Then! "The Patron saint of Ireland is presumably a corrupted form of PATERICK, the Great Father" ...

"The P of the Great Shepherd is the foundation of Pan, the God of all Shepherds, and the name pan may be understood indifferently as opan, the Sun disk, or paan, Father Sun. ...

... Pan, the root of Panacea, the goddess of health, must be equal to ban; and ban, bon or ben, meaning good ...

... The Welsh for Great Spirit is Mawr Pen Aethir, which cannot but be related to the North-American-Indian term for Great Spirit, MAHO PENITA ... [!!]

... PAN was particularly styled 'President of the Mountains', and in many languages his name has become a generic term for hills and mountains... All over the world the root pen or ben enters into mountain names, from Apennines to the Pennine range and from the Grecian Pindus mountains to the Peruvian Pinra....

[He then goes on to relate Bacchus to the buck - and Buxton! - then - ]

... The Greeks have two terms for goat - tragos, the enduring great light, and aix, the great fire of A. In the Mayan alphabet A was represented by three alternative signs - a dot within a circle, a diamond-shaped square, and a peak, which was no doubt intended as the heiroglyphic of a mountain or hill. The Greek for a mountain peak was akra, and our word peak similarly contains the notion of Great Father."

(The Lost Language of Symbolism, Vol I, pp.305-7, 333-4, 347)

I think I'll go and have cup of tea ...

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

In the light of all the above, you don't have to be very bright to relate the words Pan and Pen with penis ...

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

So where do Biro's come into all this?

In reply to Duncan Bourne:

Don't ask me such difficult questions, Duncan!

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

This is an unexpected twist in relation to the original question! It is really the "Penis District"? (Must be some mistake: Ed.)

In reply to Bruce Hooker:

We've already established, fairly conclusively I think, given the vagaries of Anglo-Saxon vocabulary and non-existent spelling, that it could easily have ended up as the 'Prick District'.

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

I thought that was 'Islington'?

In reply to psd:

Lost me. A cockney joke??

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
Re a celtic origin for Peak:
The Ordnance Survey website has a handy guide to welsh placename elements, which does indeed include pig and pigyn, meaning point. You can also look these up in their very comprehensive gazeteer; this doesn't give a lot of support to the idea that these words were used as a synonym for hill. I only found three very obscure examples, one of which - Pigyn Shon-Nicholas in Camarthenshire - doesn't exactly reek of antiquity (Shon is of course just a welshification of John).

Re the early prevalence of Christianity.
You're quite right to assume that Christianity in the late Roman empire was a minority, predominantly urban, religion. But we need some dates to put this in context. Christianity became a state religion around 320. Roman central authority in Britain ended 410. But we know that serious anglo-saxon incursions into the peak district didn't get going in earnest until the early 600s - the first anglian graves are securely dated to 630 or so, which cooincides with the events surrounding the fall of the British kingdom of Elmet. So there were 200 years of post-Roman British rule in the Peak district, during which time the region would have had strong cultural connections with the other British kingdoms in what is now northern england, north and south wales. During this time celtic Christian missionaries had converted Ireland, which had no history at all of roman urban civilisation, and in turn spread across northern continental Europe. One of the few written sources from the time is the late 6th century book by Gildas, a miserable monk who didn't have a good word to say about the British kingdoms. But in all his denunciation of the evils of the time, the one thing he doesn't accuse them of is paganism. Of course, we don't have any physical evidence of widespread christianity in the Peak at the time - but we don't have physical evidence of very much at all in this period.

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:


If there is an Indo-European root to this word family, it may be peig-/peik- (to cut, mark by incision). This root seems to have branched out into words for tools such as file, Vedic words for cutting, carving and writing, into Latin pingere (tattoo, embroider, paint) and thus picture, paint, etc., Greek pikros (sharp, bitter) and poikilo- (pied, variegated). It is also reckoned to be the origin of pickles, picnic, pie, and, apparently, f*ck.

http://www.bartleby.com/61/roots/IE382.html

As an aside, we can also observe the Indo-European root of Fiend – enemy, devil (note the reference to zero grades):

http://www.bartleby.com/61/roots/IE380.html

In reply to Witkacy:

Eureka! I think you've found it. Fantastically interesting. Example of a bit of persistence paying off.

To the list of words mentioned we could add the Picts, who were so called because they painted their skin.

Re Fiend Interesting the blend of hatred and compassion, too!

In reply to Richard J:

We're really homing in on it now, I think. I don't think it would have been used exactly as a synonym for a hill. But more like (such and such) Point or Pointy hill. I see no reason why they might not have called the odd hill after its shape rather than just its colour (the norm!). Also I don't see why it should have been used a great deal. Many mountain/ hill names are more or less unique eg. Y Wydffa, Cnict, Plynlimmon (I'm just guessing with these examples - haven't looked them up!)

The Pigyn part seems to me to 'reek of antiquity' - see Witkacy's interesting findings above.


Will reply to this in a minute.

In reply to Richard J:


Nora Chadwick in her book on the Celts says that despite the Edict of Milan the evidence "suggests that practising Christians were few, and perhaps were confined to the more Romanized elements of society, and particularly the upper classes. The resurgence of native Celtic cults in the latter half of the fourth century further suggests that Christianity remained a minority religion in the civil zone in Roman Britain."

In the Peak district, specifically, I think the main Romano-British centres were the lower Derwent/Derbentio- Ecclesbourne-Wirksworth-Carsington-Matlock areas, the Castleton-Edale-Hathersage-Stoney Middleton area; the Ardotalia (Glossop)-Chapel en le Frith area; and the Youlgreave area.

>Roman central authority in Britain ended 410. But we know that serious anglo-saxon incursions into the peak district didn't get going in earnest until the early 600s - the first anglian graves are securely dated to 630 or so, which cooincides with the events surrounding the fall of the British kingdom of Elmet. So there were 200 years of post-Roman British rule in the Peak district, during which time the region would have had strong cultural connections with the other British kingdoms in what is now northern england, north and south wales. During this time celtic Christian missionaries had converted Ireland, which had no history at all of roman urban civilisation, and in turn spread across northern continental Europe.

Yes, but they didn't get much further than Strathclyde/Galloway/Iona, Northumbria and Cornwall.

>One of the few written sources from the time is the late 6th century book by Gildas, a miserable monk who didn't have a good word to say about the British kingdoms. But in all his denunciation of the evils of the time, the one thing he doesn't accuse them of is paganism.

But, according to Chadwick, he did accuse the Welsh princes of 'lukewarm Christianity'. I believe the Christianity they preached was very Pelagian in nature.

>Of course, we don't have any physical evidence of widespread christianity in the Peak at the time - but we don't have physical evidence of very much at all in this period.

Yes, it's extraordinary just how dark the early dark ages were.

In reply to Richard J:

You didn't mention, also, from that useful guide to welsh placename elements that they have the word 'pica' for pointed, sharp - exactly the same as that Roman-Celtic stem that is found all over Europe, that we were talking about yesterday.

Other ones:

Pig Tor, Derbyshire
Pic Tor, Derbyshire
Pigyn Esgob, Conwy
Pig Hill, Devon
Pickhill, Yorkshire (Oxford Book of Place 'nook of land by the pointed hills')
Pick Hill, Kent
Picked Hill, Wiltshire
Peigh Hills, Northumberland
Pigdon, Northumberland (Oxford Book of Place names has this as 'Valley by the pointed hills' OE pic + denu

There are lots of other possible ones too, e.g
Pigeon Hill nr John O'Groats

And how about this?
Peckham, Greater London. 'Homestead by a peak or hill' OE peac + ham

It's worth reminding ourselves what the Oxford Book of Place Names says about Peak District

"Pec, 1086. OE Peac 'a peak, a pointed hill', once applied to some particular hill but used of a larger area from early times."

When I was doing research for my Peak book I came across a claim that the term was originally applied to Mam Tor, or the area immediately around Mam Tor (which later became the centre of the Royal Forest of the Peak, administered from Peak Forest) - but haven't been able to refind this.

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

Well, that about wraps it up for Peak. You’ve impressed my with the mountain of evidence, and I will be visiting that online etymology dictionary with a far warier click of the mouse in future.

Now how about the original use of The Peak District?

In reply to Witkacy:

Yes, that really does just about wrap it up!

Final note: 'The Peak District'. Called 'The Peak' for many centuries - certainly well established by mid C17, by time of Hobbes etc's 'Seven wonders of the Peak' (but I think goes back to Norman times eg 'Peveril of the Peak' was not just an invention of Walter Scott). The earliest reference I can find to The Peak District is The Peak District and Northern Counties Footpaths Preservation Society founded in 1897.

W. Adam, in his Gem of the Peak (1840) never uses the term Peak District.

One final Peak name:

Peak Tor, the little pointed hill just north of Stanton in the Peak.

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:


Did you look up the places that had pica in their name? I did, there were only a couple and there seemed to be in no relationship at all to any hills, pointed or otherwise.

Isn't it a great site, though?

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:


As I was trying to stress, there's another 200 years of history between the times describe here and the arrival of the Saxons. A lot could have happened in that time!

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:


But how do you know? Do you think it's really likely that there'd be celtic monks trekking all over central Europe while they couldn't be bothered to wander over the Doctor's Gate? The point is, most of what we know about the geographical range of the Welsh missionaries comes from place name evidence, which be definition only survives in the areas that didn't get overrun by the English.

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

I suspect you of relying on John Morris's book when you say this. For an alternative view about the prevalence of Pelagianism in Britain see "The End of Roman Britain" by Michael E. Jones. The point about this is that although no-one disputes that Pelagius was British in origin, he lived, worked and operated in the Mediterranean. We know that Pelagianism was current in 430 when St Germanus visited, but by the time the great wave of evangelists from Northern britain and Southeast Wales began their work from the end of the 5th century onwards - Patrick, Samson, David and the rest, their theology was irreproachably orthodox and Augustinian.

Of course there was some hostility between the British princes and the evangelists, this is inevitable because the Christians were claiming a source of power distinct from the political powers of the time. But there's no suggestion that they retained their pagan beliefs. This is important because if we know anything about celtic Pagan religion we know it was intimately entangled with the idea of the King entering into a symbolic marriage with the land.

In reply to Richard J:

As you said earlier, we don't know. But they're don't seem to have been any monastic settlements in or even close to the Peak at this period. More likely I think is a tenuous survival of Romano-British Christianity in a patchy way throughout the region, which then got swamped/surrounded by pagan Angles.

In reply to Richard J:

No, that quote about 'lukewarm Christianity' came straight from Chadwick.

Yes, I must get the End of Roman Britain.

By the time of the Romans the 'King' (symbolised by Sol, the sun) had to enter into a symbolic marriage with the Earth Mother/Moon Goddess.

Before the time of the Romans I believe the local chieftain was regarded as very much subservient to the Mother Goddess (and her various water-goddess daughters)

Quite a few of the chieftains were women, too. eg. Boudicca and Cartimandua.

In reply to Richard J:

Well my list above shows that quite a lot of pic names were associated with pointed hills, though it seems, in the main, with quite small ones.

I think you are making unnecessary difficulties about the use of the term 'peak' - to the Celts and pre-Celts it seems to have meant more or less 'a spike/spikey thing'. I think it was used re. hills (not very often) in much the same was as 'Pap' - which is used for rather more rounded, breast like features. (Although the etymology books say this is Scandinavian, it clearly comes from the latin Papilla, and again suggests an earlier word.) eg. Paps of Jura and Kerry, and the Pap of Glencoe.

cf Mam in Mam Tor, Maamturk, Sgurr a Mhaim, Mam Ban, Mam Sodhail etc etc. (Idea of Earth Mother lurks at Mam Tor i.e the Mother Goddess of the Peak as opposed to Chomolungma, the Mother Goddess of the World!)

BTW, I wonder how many people who live in Manchester know that it has the same Mam/Breast derivation? The Roman name for it was Mamucium (or Mamucio or Mamucion) meaning 'Place on the breast-shaped hills' ... possibly because of its proximity to the 'Mam' of the Peak? (well, 20 miles!) Anyhow, they had clearly latinised and older local name, as was their common practice.

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

Moving away from prehistory to more modern mythology, I wonder if you know about the way the Peak fits into William Blake's mythic universe? In his prophetic poems Milton and Jerusalem, the Peak district is personified as Gwendolen, one of the daughters of Albion. Mam Tor gets to represent (one of) her breasts, and you can work out for yourself what part of her body Dovedale corresponds to. I've wondered where on earth this image comes from. There are some great and rousing lines spoken from the summit of Mam Tor.

In reply to Richard J:

No, had no idea he referred to the Peak and Mam Tor. I've got a collection of Blake so will look up with interest (assuming you're not joking!)

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
Not joking, just changing the subject since we probably aren't going to agree about the other stuff. Look up Jerusalem, plate 82, line 45.

In reply to Richard J:

Oh, yes, 'She drew aside her Veil from Mam Tor to Dovedale' ...!

A rich metaphor indeed, showing that he not only knew something of Peak folklore, but had a good grasp of Peak geography as well.

In reply to Richard J:
I think people often take a fairly erronious view that the Christians brow beat the pagan peoples into submission. I think it is more likely that after an initail hostility many pagan rulers (including the Romans) welcomed Christianity for it's obvious use in being able to control the populace. Most pagan societies at the time had an afterlife which you could only enter as a warrior or aristocrat, your ordinary bloke in the swamp didn't get a look in unless of course he too became a warrior and ousted the ruling authority at the time. Then along comes these people who say "Hey the more shit you have now the better your life will be in Heaven", effectively keeping folk bowed with the "cake tomorrow promise". That is why I think the Romans converted and most other pagan rulers. Once you have that eccesiastical power in place then you can go about calling all those you don't like witches, pagans, devil whorshippers, infidels or what ever other excuse you need to stamp all over them.