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As it says, what do you use to rig the abseil and then leave behind? Is 8mm static cord considered safe? Or would you use tape? Just wondering as I've heard contradicting advice recently.
Cheers
Chris
Cheers
Chris
In reply to Chris Davids:
Dear Chris
Either is OK.
Norrie
PS It is only tat after it has been used.
> As it says, what do you use to rig the abseil and then leave behind? Is 8mm static cord considered safe? Or would you use tape?
Dear Chris
Either is OK.
Norrie
PS It is only tat after it has been used.
In reply to Chris Davids: Across the pond it's customary to fit rap rings, not an entirely bad idea.
I thought as much. Got told yesterday by a lad in Tiso's that you shouldn't use cord as:
"It wasn't designed to hold a load for a long period of time"
He said you should only use Dyneema tape. Sounded like bull but I thought I'd check.
Cheers for the quick answer.
Chris
"It wasn't designed to hold a load for a long period of time"
He said you should only use Dyneema tape. Sounded like bull but I thought I'd check.
Cheers for the quick answer.
Chris
In reply to Chris Davids:
<guffaw> According to Beal's web site, their 8mm accessory cord is rated to 14kN: http://www.bealplanet.com/produits/anglais/produit6.html
> Got told yesterday by a lad in Tiso's that you shouldn't use cord as: "It wasn't designed to hold a load for a long period of time"
<guffaw> According to Beal's web site, their 8mm accessory cord is rated to 14kN: http://www.bealplanet.com/produits/anglais/produit6.html
In reply to Chris Davids: A large, inexpensive ring. One generally takes two and threads the abseil cord/tape through them and then ties off. Reduces friction when pulling the rope down.
In reply to Chris Davids:
I hope you laughed loudly in his face!
> "It wasn't designed to hold a load for a long period of time"
I hope you laughed loudly in his face!
In reply to Anonymous: Was it designed to be laughed in for a long period of time?
In reply to Chris Davids:
On big routes, and especially in winter, I've nearly always got a couple of old slings and krabs that I can regard as "disposable" for just this sort of thing.
They can still be used as normal protection if necessary, of course. Most climbers do this, surely?
On big routes, and especially in winter, I've nearly always got a couple of old slings and krabs that I can regard as "disposable" for just this sort of thing.
They can still be used as normal protection if necessary, of course. Most climbers do this, surely?
In reply to Chris Davids: The lad in Tiso's talking total bullshit! 7mm cord is plenty thick enough!
More importantly, according to Black Diamond. Knots in Dyneema tape will slip much more than a knot in nylon tape so don't cut up your old slings to use as ab tat! That's also why it's hard to find it sold off the reel!
More importantly, according to Black Diamond. Knots in Dyneema tape will slip much more than a knot in nylon tape so don't cut up your old slings to use as ab tat! That's also why it's hard to find it sold off the reel!
In reply to Chris Davids:
I have always used 8mm accessory cord with double or triple fishermans.
I have always used 8mm accessory cord with double or triple fishermans.
In reply to Chris Davids:
In remote areas wouldn't it be more environmentally friendly to use a bio-degradable material rather than man made fibre eg hemp rope slings. They are perfectly strong enough for first time use, but will eventually rot away.
For more popular areas, and I think particularly of the unsightly mess of tat on top of the Old Man of Stoer, maybe one solution would be to encourage each successive party to bring away with it the tat from the previous parties? That way there would only be one piece of tat left there at any one time.
In remote areas wouldn't it be more environmentally friendly to use a bio-degradable material rather than man made fibre eg hemp rope slings. They are perfectly strong enough for first time use, but will eventually rot away.
For more popular areas, and I think particularly of the unsightly mess of tat on top of the Old Man of Stoer, maybe one solution would be to encourage each successive party to bring away with it the tat from the previous parties? That way there would only be one piece of tat left there at any one time.
In reply to Trangia: Wouldn't it make more sense to put in two bolts and a chain maybe in black! Then there would be no tat and would be safer than messing around with hemp rope!
In reply to Anonymous:
Are you going to carry a star drill, mallet, bolts, bonding paste and chain with you on a remote climb? If used properly a hemp rope sling as a static fixing is safe. Your bolts and chin will be there for ever- the hemp will rot way leaving the lesser impact on the environment.
Are you going to carry a star drill, mallet, bolts, bonding paste and chain with you on a remote climb? If used properly a hemp rope sling as a static fixing is safe. Your bolts and chin will be there for ever- the hemp will rot way leaving the lesser impact on the environment.
In reply to Chris Davids:
Even 5mm or 6mm cord is strong enough for an emergency abseil. 8mm static cord is more in line with setting up a permanent abseil station, in which case it should be fitted with a maillon or ring.
Even 5mm or 6mm cord is strong enough for an emergency abseil. 8mm static cord is more in line with setting up a permanent abseil station, in which case it should be fitted with a maillon or ring.
In reply to Chris Davids:
Christ almighty, if it is capable of taking a fall, then it might just suffice for a static load like an abseil.
> As it says, what do you use to rig the abseil and then leave behind? Is 8mm static cord considered safe? Or would you use tape? Just wondering as I've heard contradicting advice recently.
>
> Cheers
>
> Chris
>
> Cheers
>
> Chris
Christ almighty, if it is capable of taking a fall, then it might just suffice for a static load like an abseil.
In reply to Chris Davids:
I find a small child to be fairly resilient and exceedingly expendable.
Sxx
I find a small child to be fairly resilient and exceedingly expendable.
Sxx
In reply to Cosmic John: When I got into climbing and was putting a rack together, I bought four DMM Twistlock krabs; a friend took me climbing and noticed these krabs on my rack - he pointed out that the single action necessary to open them (a simple twist of the sleeve) meant that they weren't really what I needed for locking krabs. They went into a storage box where they stayed until I found them again last month in my continuing clear-out. I'm selling them for no other reason that I have a number of other 'leavers' (krabs I have used which I wouldn't sell to other climbers ). These DMM krabs are unused and would be extremely suitable as 'leavers' because they are safer than snapgates (though less so than screwgates). Offers plus P&P.
In reply to Chris Davids:
Find a a mate whose retired some 9mm ropes and blag a few metres. I've got about 150m of ab tat to cut up......
Find a a mate whose retired some 9mm ropes and blag a few metres. I've got about 150m of ab tat to cut up......
In reply to GrahamD:
I've abbed on one of my prussicks in the Alps - I think that's 4mm cord. I'm not dead.
I've abbed on one of my prussicks in the Alps - I think that's 4mm cord. I'm not dead.
In reply to James Jackson:
Yvon Chouinard's book has a story of abseiling the wrong way down the Auiguille de Requin, eventually using rucksack drawstrings and bootlaces as tat.
There's a good argument against "accessory krabs" for nut tools, chalkbags, and wotnot there. You never know when you might be grateful for that extra full-spec bit of kit.
Yvon Chouinard's book has a story of abseiling the wrong way down the Auiguille de Requin, eventually using rucksack drawstrings and bootlaces as tat.
There's a good argument against "accessory krabs" for nut tools, chalkbags, and wotnot there. You never know when you might be grateful for that extra full-spec bit of kit.
In reply to Chris Davids:
Try standing in a loop of nylon guyline and see if it holds you, we did and found that it held two people. This was to see if it was strong enough for direct aid on a route, about ten foot above a runner.
As others have said, most cords that are used for runners is plenty strong enough, we used roughly 7mm hemp slings in the 60s for abseil tat on lots of routes in the alps.
Try standing in a loop of nylon guyline and see if it holds you, we did and found that it held two people. This was to see if it was strong enough for direct aid on a route, about ten foot above a runner.
As others have said, most cords that are used for runners is plenty strong enough, we used roughly 7mm hemp slings in the 60s for abseil tat on lots of routes in the alps.
In reply to Chris Davids: a mion rapide is a rap ring they only cost £3 or so. and make the rope esier to pull through. on most lakes crags the you can abe of there is one. ie lower falocan and goat crag.
In reply to Chris Davids:
In the Alps I remember lacing our big leather mountain boots with 4mm cord, as well as replace our rucksack cord with it, and generally stuff our pockets with it, the idea being that we could use it for abseils or prusiks or tying off pegs or for direct aid in an emergency.
This was after I once had to use ordinary bootlaces to abseil off the Blaitiere.
In the Alps I remember lacing our big leather mountain boots with 4mm cord, as well as replace our rucksack cord with it, and generally stuff our pockets with it, the idea being that we could use it for abseils or prusiks or tying off pegs or for direct aid in an emergency.
This was after I once had to use ordinary bootlaces to abseil off the Blaitiere.
In reply to Steven Martin:
Dear Steven
I have also used boot laces, but I refrained from posting that earlier. It is good to know others have did this.
Norrie
> This was after I once had to use ordinary bootlaces to abseil off the Blaitiere.
Dear Steven
I have also used boot laces, but I refrained from posting that earlier. It is good to know others have did this.
Norrie
In reply to James Jackson:
But are you fat ?
Seriously, though, if a prussic can't take your weight, its no use as a prussic loop, really.
> I've abbed on one of my prussicks in the Alps - I think that's 4mm cord. I'm not dead.
But are you fat ?
Seriously, though, if a prussic can't take your weight, its no use as a prussic loop, really.
<More importantly, according to Black Diamond. Knots in Dyneema tape will slip much more than a knot in nylon tape so don't cut up your old slings to use as ab tat!>
I looked into this a while back as I have a 240 Dyneema sling that I had to cut due to getting it stuck. I decided not to use it for ab tat for this very reason.
I looked into this a while back as I have a 240 Dyneema sling that I had to cut due to getting it stuck. I decided not to use it for ab tat for this very reason.
In reply to Mattress:
Good idea, a friend has just retired a couple of old ropes. Never thought of blagging a length for this purpose.
>
> Find a a mate whose retired some 9mm ropes and blag a few metres
> Find a a mate whose retired some 9mm ropes and blag a few metres
Good idea, a friend has just retired a couple of old ropes. Never thought of blagging a length for this purpose.
In reply to Chris Davids:
I guess you are not talking of 'tat' as such, which is usually used for abseil retreats because you wouldn't want to carry bulky 9mm rope for this purpose !
If you intend to set up a permanent abseil station, remember that climbing rope is dynamic and stretches under load. Be careful that the repeated stretch/relax cycle cannot wear the rope, espeially over edges.
I guess you are not talking of 'tat' as such, which is usually used for abseil retreats because you wouldn't want to carry bulky 9mm rope for this purpose !
If you intend to set up a permanent abseil station, remember that climbing rope is dynamic and stretches under load. Be careful that the repeated stretch/relax cycle cannot wear the rope, espeially over edges.
In reply to GrahamD:
My point exactly...
Apparantly my dad had to do a bootlace abseil in the Dolomites once. He described as the single most scary thing he's ever had to do. Fun stuff.
My point exactly...
Apparantly my dad had to do a bootlace abseil in the Dolomites once. He described as the single most scary thing he's ever had to do. Fun stuff.
I am talking tat, but would much prefer to carry a little weight and have peace of mind when abseiling. 5m of 8mm cord, which is what I bought isn't that heavy.Maybe if/when I climb harder I'll think other wise.
<climbing rope is dynamic and stretches under load. Be careful that the repeated stretch/relax cycle cannot wear the rope>
Goes without saying but for a single ab, if it's sensibly set up and the abseil rope isn't weighted/unweighted repeatedly then it shouldn't be a problem. If other people use it then you should hope they'd treat it with a great deal of caution. (Burn from past ropes being pulled, natural weakening from being battered by the elements, etc)
<climbing rope is dynamic and stretches under load. Be careful that the repeated stretch/relax cycle cannot wear the rope>
Goes without saying but for a single ab, if it's sensibly set up and the abseil rope isn't weighted/unweighted repeatedly then it shouldn't be a problem. If other people use it then you should hope they'd treat it with a great deal of caution. (Burn from past ropes being pulled, natural weakening from being battered by the elements, etc)
In reply to Chris Davids:
What's the minimum thickness cord one should carry to ab off in an emergency.
I usually carry 6mm for this, but surely new 4mm rope(or even less?) should be enough to hold normal body weight for an ab?
I'm very cautious about using bundles of old tat, even if it looks in decent nick. After all, your life depends on it.
What's the minimum thickness cord one should carry to ab off in an emergency.
I usually carry 6mm for this, but surely new 4mm rope(or even less?) should be enough to hold normal body weight for an ab?
I'm very cautious about using bundles of old tat, even if it looks in decent nick. After all, your life depends on it.
In reply to Alex Pryor:
I've got 6mm I think, I'd be happy using 5mm, 4mm might begin to scare me a bit.
According to Needlesports website, 4mm cord has a 4kn strain, take about half that off for a knot (down to about 2.5kN say), and then I've read somewhere that a jerky abseil by the average male abseiler can cause up to 1.5-2kN of force, so the safety margin is under 2, which doesn't leave a lot of leeway if things go pear shaped. 5mm cord breaks at 5.5, so youve got a bigger margin. Although if its an emergency, 3mm cord takes 1.8kN, and so you could theoretically go off that and abseil as smooth as possible (although I wouldn't be keen myself).
The other thing, is is there a radius at which it starts to damage the rope - loaded rope over a wire will cut through, but what diameter cord will have the same effect - I'd guess that would start to kick in at about 3mm cord?
AJM
I've got 6mm I think, I'd be happy using 5mm, 4mm might begin to scare me a bit.
According to Needlesports website, 4mm cord has a 4kn strain, take about half that off for a knot (down to about 2.5kN say), and then I've read somewhere that a jerky abseil by the average male abseiler can cause up to 1.5-2kN of force, so the safety margin is under 2, which doesn't leave a lot of leeway if things go pear shaped. 5mm cord breaks at 5.5, so youve got a bigger margin. Although if its an emergency, 3mm cord takes 1.8kN, and so you could theoretically go off that and abseil as smooth as possible (although I wouldn't be keen myself).
The other thing, is is there a radius at which it starts to damage the rope - loaded rope over a wire will cut through, but what diameter cord will have the same effect - I'd guess that would start to kick in at about 3mm cord?
AJM
In reply to Chris Davids: I have a 5m cordialette made of 7mm accessory cord that i use for equalising belays etc, even with knots in it is still rated to something like 12kN. If i ever need some tat for an abseil. i cut a metre or so off the end and use that. That way i dont have to leave slings behind, only 50p of accessory cord.
Paul
Paul
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