UKC

In reply to MattH: Thanks Matt.

Several of our local young people are frantically filling in applications forms for the North East section.

They are all training hard, and looking good.

It is a fantastic competiton well worth supporting. These people are the future cream of British Climbing and need the support and backing from all climbers, as do the rest of the British Team. If you can help in kind or in person I urge you to do so.

In reply to MattH: Do you know how good you have to be? I'd like to go but im not sure wheter i'd be good enough to try it.

In reply to mad matt: Thats the whole point Mad Matt, you dont have to be good - BRYCS is a competition for people of all abilities. There will be routes of all grades from very easy to quite hard. The British Team can't take part this year so generally things will be set at an easier grade than in the past. This is meant to be a fun event and an introduction to competitive climbing - go along, you will enjoy it!

In reply to MattH: Why aren't the British Junior Team competing?

Firstly the Brycs should give them a positive competition experience as they should win their catergories.

Secondly it totally devalues the Brycs by making them a second divison competition.

Thirdly how can an up and coming climber judge themselves and see what the standard they need to attain is if the British Team aren't there. Also how can the BMC have a British Champion in each age bracket when potentially the best are not competing this means the Finals are totally devalued. Or are the Team to get a by straight into the Finals.

Also to have British Team members there actually inspires young climbers and makes them want to get better.

Finally which national compeitions are they competing in? I don't see many on the calander.

And how will climbers get onto the team if the team don't have to compete against them?

In reply to Ian Dunn:

Ian
The decision was made to protect the Team from over training and over use injuries.

The Team compete in the BICC's, the BBC's plus they attend International events - this year we will have members of the Team going to Czech Republic, Austria, China, Switzerland and Slovenia. They also attend a number of training sessions.

So Team members are already doing a lot and the extra training and competing for the BRYCS would mean that they are never going to get a rest and the chance of injury and/or burnout is high.

Selection for the Team is based primarily on BICC results.

I accept that the prescence of the Team has an inspirational affect on other climbers but our priority and our duty is to protect the Team members.

In reply to MattH: Any idea of the grades for the bouldering snd leading in the boys 13-15 yr old category ie V? and f?
Cheers

In reply to MattH: tr, the grades for your hardest routes / problems should be around 7a+ 7b and B4/5 English 6a/b

In reply to graeme alderson: I am fully in support of making sure the Team don't suffer from over use injuries and burn out.

However if the BRYC's were spread over a greater period of time rather than 3 consecutive week ends then the team could have fit them into their training programs.

Having team members at the regional events and even more importantly competing in the finals inspires lots of the other competitors, Hazel Findley and Kate Whitakers climb off at Sunderland was great for all the competitors to see and it showed what the standard they needed to aspire to.

More care over the planning of the competition calander would allow climbers to get the rest they require and ensure that the regional competitions are not devalued.

In reply to Ian Dunn: Ian, you are totally wrong to suggest that enough care was not put into this decision - The decision not to include Team members in BRYCS (13-15yrs)was not taken lightly and involved meetings between Team managers, Comps Committee, Team Members and parents and finally it was endorsed by the Training and Youth Committee. BRYCS dates are very difficult to arrange as the walls have a major say in when we can run them and we have fully respected their preferences while and just as importantly ensuring that we avoid any clashes with exams - We spent many hours looking around the UK to check dates and holiday dates to arrive a timetable that will ultimately not suit everyone but we believe is the best that can be managed. Ian, Please feel free to call me to discuss this in more so I can give you a clearer understanding of why this decision was taken.
Tony Powell

In reply to Ian Dunn: Sorry Ian I disagree. It is not about spreading things out, the Team are doing too much.

They have to compete in BICC's to maintain their Team place. Adding BRYCS into the equation would detract from their performances abroad, which is the whole point of their being in the Team.

To add another set of competitions does put a massive strain on them, after all they want to WIN and therefore will not ease back on their training.

4 x BRYCS + 3 x BICC + various International competitions = TOO MUCH on growing bodies.

Membership of a national Team comes with its rewards but also comes with costs and not being allowed to compete in the BRYCS is one of the costs.

In reply to TonyP: The climbing walls do not have a major influence over when the BRYCS are as if it was down to the walls they would be in summer when the weekend use is quietest. The ABC (Association of British Climbing Walls) certainly weren't consulted regarding dates for the BRYCS.

Also a competition series in late June / early July after the exams, would not clash with studying.

If the team consider that 3 BRYCS plus a final are too much for them then the BRYCS should be run for those children below the age for the team and full emphasis should be placed on these events as a national competition series. Once children reach the lower age for the team they should be encouraged to go to the BICCs or the BBCs. This would give maximum support to all competitions and not devalue the older age bracket of the BRYCs.

How can first place in the 13-15 category of the national final have any meaning when the competitors know that potentially the best climbers ie the British Team aren't there.

I understand that the BMC does't want to put too much pressure on competitors, however if you look at other sports or competition climbing in other countries ie.France then I don't think we would be over stretching the climbers. After all competing as often as possible gives competitors experience of competitions that can only be gained by competing, and the team should get very postitive experience as they should win their categories. France certainly produces more champions than we do.

In reply to Ian Dunn: Quite frankly Ian you are living in cloud cuckoo land if you think you can get enough volunteers around the country (many of whom have just given up the vast majority of their winter weekends) to give to give up their summer holidays to run BRYCS - Ian I think you should get involved with YAP or TYC as it is now called and start to get a better understanding of the many issues involved here - not least the numbers of injuries that are being identified in Children espescially those who overtrain / compete on the boulders

In reply to MattH: Ian, by the way the first round of the European Youth Cup Series coinsides with the first round of the BRYCS with rounds continuing throught the year. So the only way for our young Team Climbers to get a restbite after BICCs & BBCs is to withdraw from BRYCS, much as we would like to support the event.

The Team are lucky to have a Sports Scientist, Hand Surgeon and Physiotherapist who are able to give us advice on training for young climbers.

After 10 years of being involved with young climbers and the BRYCS for the last 7 years please be assured that I, and I beleive the BMC remain totaly commited to BRYCS.

We are now seeing the benifit of BRYCS, many of those in the Junior Team have evolved through BRYCS and it is vital that this continues.

In reply to Tony P: As a family member and associate member of The BMC (a members organisation) and someone who has been involved in competition climbing since 1989, I feel that I should be able to air my views without being treated with disrespect.

My comments were not meant as a personal attack on any individual and it is a pity that we are not able to have a healthy debate / discussion without personal and intentionally demeaning comments being thrown. I still hold my opinion that The BRYCS will be devalued without the presence of the British Team and with all due respect this is an opinion I am entitled to. I can also assure you of my best interests in both the British Team and the future of the sport of climbing.

I am pleased the team are getting help from sports and medical professionals towards their training and I hope that each member is given individual training programs to help them peak at the right time and avoid injury and burn out.

After many years of people like yourself working towards building up the BRYCS to achieving the recognition it has today and benefitting so many young climbers, it would be a shame to see that wasted by dismissing it as a non essential:ie non important event. I would like to discuss ways of at least ensuring the presense of the Team in the final. That is if I may...?

In reply to Ian Dunn: Ian, can I assure that my comments above were not in any way meant to offend but were just a reaction to some of your previous comments. I couldnt agree more that you have every right to air your views and that we should be able to enjoy healthy debate on this kind of forum. Neither did I feel that your were having a personal attack towards me or anyone else involved with the team. Understandably I am defensive when people start to air their views as voiciferously as you have at the beginning of this thread without at first taking the time to ask why these decisions were made. You are a BMC member and have the right to attend meetings and make your feelings known - Mike Watson Chair of Youth and Ian Fenton Chair of TYC would I am sure be happy for you to attend any meeting to ask for the rational behind this policy - alterantively as I suggessted you could call me you have my number. As a matter of fact we have a lot more in common over this issue than you imagine!

In reply to MattH:
My son competed last year and enjoyed it. He can't compete this year as we are abroad on the 23rd and 30th. I feel it's totally unreasonable to give so little advanced notice of the dates. We only found out in the MC of S mag by accident at the beginning of March. 6 weeks notice of the event and finding out this way is a crap way of encouraging a keen youngster, as well as the amount of dosh it takes to make it happen if a kid makes it to London - not the cheapest place to stay or to get to if you live in Northern Scotland. My son is gutted as he has great support from the local wall but as we have paid for a holiday he is coming with us. His view now is that the BRYCS can shove it.

In reply to Young Fox:
Is your son duncan gunn? sorry just being nosy!! cos i competed in scotland north brycs last year too, and this year it looks like we only hav 3 entrants which is a shame! i agree about the whole dates thing, i only found out by lookin about on the internet. last year the climbing walls were given posters to put up, but we never got one this year!

In reply to Anna_wells: We were late in getting stuff out but stuff went out to the following about 1 month ago:

A3 and A4posters to host venues

email entry forms to all entrants to last year

postal entry forms to all those without emails or those whose emails bounced back

the giant A0 posters went out to host venues about 2 weeks ago

so I don't know why you did not get notification Anna but we did send out to everyone we had on record (and we definately had some details for you 'cos you were in the final)

In reply to GraemeA at home:
I realise that there is an enormous amount of time and effort, not least by yourself. We received no notification other than on the MC of S website by accident while looking at other stuff. Likewise our local wall only found out at the same time. Highland Schools have their GCSE prelims and exams between the 23rd and 30th and this is worth bearing in mind for older kids. Most Scottish kids do GCSE at 14. As parents we need prior warning greater than 6 weeks so we can be there to support our kids as well. Maybe this was just an admin blunder or we should have looked earlier. Even alowing, it's all packed into 3 close weekends which time wise isnt easy for kids taking exams or parents juggling time.

I am sure I am not alone in needing to plan my life around work and other committments. As you know without the parents the whole thing can't work.

I also do question the choice of venue for the final as London is expensive and not handy for anyone but those from the South, but I do appreciate that not many places will host such an event. Thats my gripe over. Maybe next year will work in.

In reply to Anna_wells:

Yep Anna. Looks like there will only be two of you this year. Duncans pretty unhappy as he was looking forward to it. I have work in the Alps for a week from the 23rd to the 30th and he's coming with the rest of the family. Too expensive to cancel the flights. Maybe next year.

I hope you do well. Keep the flag flying for the Highlanders.

In reply to Young Fox: We did consult with AYC's and MCofS about the best time to avoid exams and were told April was in the clear (exams are far more important than a bit of climbing after all).

Which is your local wall?

We do try and move the final around but as you say there aren't many venues big enough.

In the last few years we have been to S Wales, the Midlands, Yorkshire, Sheffield and Sunderland.

There is one a bit closer to you but we have had our fingers burnt there and will not even contemplate going there until it is more stable in terms of its future

In reply to GraemeA at home:
Cheers Graeme. We climb at the Ice Factor who have been superb with encouraging the local youth. I am afraid you were misled about the exams, but that maybe just a Highland thing. Its just one of those things that maybe cant suit everyone. I am aware of where the finger burn came from which is a shame as it is very good. You guys do a good job so just ignore my gripe. Its just my lads a bit dissapointed as he's finaly getting really keen again after a winter of flu, asthma and all the usual stuff.

Maybe next year

hi is the closing date in august again? it has been the last couple of years! im 16 at the end of july will this mean i will not be able to enter

cheers al

In reply to MattH: I was originally planning to take a group from my school, but illness before the Easter break has now left me with insufficient time to organise it. A few thoughts:

I like the idea that all the competitions are on the same day nationally.

I don't think three consecutive weekends is so good - the first weekend in three consecutive months would be better.

It would be helpful if the application forms were available off the BMC website sooner.

Oh well, see you there next year hopefully.

In reply to ALL
Seems to be a bit of a hot potatoe - this one. As the parent of a child who has competed religiously for three years at final level and although I try to distance myself from the politics of it all - I can see where all parties are coming from in this thread:
Yes it would have been pretty helpfull to competitors and parents alike to know that it was being brought forward by afew months this year - really we could have been done with getting notified before xmas - despite the corporate message being a 'fun competition' many (older) youth climbers see the BRYCS as a stepping-stone to the Youth team or squad - perhaps wrongly so . However it's easy to sit back and critisise when we don't know the workings and favours that are called in to run such a large national competition series and I suspect that it is a pretty thankless task.
I'm not sure that excluding the Uk team is a good thing. A good point was raised about the incentive of those competing when others would not appear to 'defend their honour' - a point I noticed last year when overhearing some at the results board questioning individual performances from those 'unknowns' who had attained higher positions than some 'knowns'. The absence of the 'knowns' this year could easily create an impression of (possibly unjustified) elitism. I do however understand that training and competing at international level could exclude many of them from entering this year - especially at the re-scheduled time periods - but would add that I think it should be up to the individuals as to what competitions they should or should not enter.
What has not been said and perhaps should be - is that those who do compete may stand a better chance of attaining a medal position than they perhaps otherwise would have done without the Uk team being present. This will perhaps taint the honour of winning (see Man Utd forgoing the FA cup to compete in that debacle of a world competition a couple of years ago - and - fortunately cause I hate them - getting kicked out at an early stage). I dont think it belittled the home competition however - yet there will be those who disagree and those who will never know but whose mere doubt will forever cast a shadow over the integrity of the FA cup that year!!! The mere absence of the Uk team may also cast doubt over the value of competing or even winning the BRYCS this year (especially 13-15s) - rightly or wrongly so.
Whilst I dont expect everyone to agree with my comments - the Man Utd bit I really really sincerely mean most passionately - I have tried to be objective because I think this is a valued thread that should be thrashed out at a public yet diplomatic level - it impacts very highly at kid's and youth climbing standards - being the only national competition series available (certainly to under 12's). Lets face it - the BMC dont really have to run this series - but I'm sure that the majority of those who have entered over the years are at least thankfull that someone has taken the trouble to do so. I'm not sure that it is run in the best possible way or targeted at the correct climbers (especially this year) but nevertheless it is run and all those who have competed can proudly raise their heads and say that they did so and at that time and (even) this year it is undoubtedly the most important and prestigious series of events in childrens (up to 16) competition climbing in the UK.
I would strongly echo the words of Paul Beadle (see reply 2 above) in advising all to enter. Cut the politics and just do it - it's fantastic and it really does mean something. With the greatest of sympathies to those who want to enter but can't this year - climbing is a great sport whether you compete indoors or not - at the end of the day it's you against gravity. Your time will undoubtedly come again - whether in next years BRYCS or in the BICCS - train hard and have one over on this years administrators!!!
Dave

In reply to All:

Hi All,

It's hard to please every body all of the time. Something I am sure you have all said or heard said at some point. The BMC tries pretty hard to juggle everybody's needs (the competitors, walls, volunteers, parents and administrators, taking into account exams, holidays and other competitions), but obviously never quite gets it right.

You are probably aware that England Scotland and Wales are split into 10 regions, and that each region has a youth representative (an AYC). Even getting these 10 individuals together (they are all volunteers) in one place for a meeting to discuss BRYCS is virtually impossible, so taking into account everybody's views is desperately difficult.

Rather than let this thread digress too much further from the original point - to publicise the 2005 BRYCS - the BMC will post another thread, dedicated entirely to the running of future BRYCS shortly after the final regional round on April 30th. All previous competitors will be alerted by email that the thread is live. It will remain live for 2 weeks and will act as a virtual meeting for everybody to air their views.

Hopefully this will help iron out a few issues and we can get it closer to 'right' next year.

In reply to MattH:

Can Junior team members climb in the BRYCS against the wishes of the BMC?

Dave D.

In reply to D Douglas: Just to give everyone an understanding of the the numbers we are talking about here and how the BRYCS will be affected this year.
There are currently 32 members of the Junior Team 8 are squad members and therefore are able to compete, one is in the 10 - 12 category and can compete, 17 are too old to compete this year, 2 are doing EYC's and one is injured. Leaving 3 Team members who can take part - one from the Peak area and 2 from Scotland.

In reply to TonyP: That should have read - Leaving 3 Team members who could have taken part - one from the Peak area and 2 from Scotland.

In reply to TonyP:

Just a wee update. You can still enter the BRYCS this week. As long as your form arrives at the BMC offices by mid day on Friday 15th April.

If you need to fax it, the number is 0161 445 4500.

If you have any questions please email Graeme@thebmc.co.uk

In reply to TonyP: Hi Tony
As an interested parent of a team member - what sort of injuries are we talking about, how many, to whom and how were they caused?

In reply to Jane: Jane, we have discussed these injuries and the reasons behind this (BRYCS) decision with parents at the last two Team meetings -(Preston and Sheffield) and have receieved their support. If you missed those meetings please feel free to call me to discuss in more detail. Broadly the injuries are finger and growth plate related but also to elbows and wrists. I will not discuss individual cases on the forum but there is plenty of evidence that the injuries are directly related to the type training regime of those climbers. We have given guidance on how we would like Team members to modify what they are doing but we should discuss this with Team members individually and in person.

In reply to MattH: Can you tell what difficulty of grades there maybe for the girls 7-9 age group, for both bouldering and routes.

In reply to TonyP: Surely the information should be widely disseminated so as to help all young climbers. Is the BMC going to be publishing some information on its web site or in the magazines?

There are a lot of young climbers training out there who are not British Team members or are not interested in competitions that would certainly benefit from more knowledge of these type of training injuries.

In reply to Ian Dunn:

Squawk, unfortunately there are laws against wholesale copying of published information!! So we can't publish the contents of 'One Move too Many' on our website (book not available in UK)

We do already publish the stuff that we have http://www.thebmc.co.uk/safety/hp/hprg_index.htm

Other research that is on going include:
Adolescent Injury Study (UK study)
5 year study by the DAV on the German Youth Team, findings not published yet

Once these studies are finished and the findings published they will go on the website.

Cheers
Graeme

In reply to graeme alderson: Thanks Graeme, I had seen Dave Binneys papers, but any new info is going to be of interest to lots of young climbers, and their parents. Keep us posted.

In reply to TonyP: Yes Tony - I think you were aware that I was in Spain with NE kids for at least one of those sessions.
I agree with Ian that as much info and advice that can be given should be available to as many parents as possible. I think parents arent looking to read a thesis, Graeme, but just some useful guidelines on what training young people should realistically be doing at a given age.
To get back to the team however I am not sure that the number of injuries that we are talking about warrant a blanket ban nor is it clear how these injuries have been caused, for example by excessive over-training against advice by coaches? Dont get me wrong - I totally agree with protecting young climbers and we all want to see them still climbing in the future but if the problem is overtraining outside the comp arena or outside the coaches area of control what good does stopping them enter one comp make?
The schedule of comps that I have received doesnt seem excessive either, although I do appreciate Tom isnt entered for as many as some of the other team members. I actually believe that experience of Comps is a necessary part of the training programme.

In reply to matth:

my 2 cents...

A) as almost all the team are too old for brycs anyway, a quite word to the younger ones about not entreing would have done the job just as well and not caused a fuss.
B) according to matth, brycs isn't a national competition. which is odd as it's the only national competition for 7-12 year olds.
C) the whole point of a competition team is to enter competitions.
D) Training is only of any use if it's geared towards competitions, its the end goal of training. Ie. Training is structured around the comps not the other way around.
E) IF over training injuries are occuring, then your coaches aren't doing the job properly. (or more likely it's members ignoring the coaches in which case you dont have stiff enough penalties for doing so)
f) the book referred too is one move too many and you can just buy it from amazon.com.

ramble mode off

In reply to Xboulder:

just a quick response
1) a quiet word might have worked but what do you do if the quiet word doesn't work
2) i think matt meant something along the lines that it is the british REGIONAL youth climbing series ie lots of regional events coordinated nationally. so is it regional or is it national, i don't know and i don't think it matters really
3)i would contend that the whole point of the British Team is to enter international events, if we don't compete internationally (or at least aim towards) then the British Team does not exist
4) for the British Team I would argue that their training needs to be structured around International events
5) we are still on the learning curve
6) the book is not available to be shipped to europe, i have tried

In reply to graeme alderson:

Next time we're looking at dates, Graeme, can we remember that we're in a somewhat multicultural society? Next week's event is at the start of Passover, and I've had a couple of people mention to me how disappointed they were not to be able to compete this year due to the clash.

Probably a bigger problem in London than most other places.

In reply to graeme alderson:

1. True, but a blanket ban that belittles the whole event was a bad call. Fully justifed of course, but stiil badly played.
2. Of course it matters! You have a national final, you advertise it as a national final. In almost any sport regional rounds precede the national final. Your comment does allow inferance that you now consider brycs a second rate competition. But your right it's now a regional only event as the top athletes aren't allowed to compete. Is the next step dropping the final?
3. Very true.
4. Yes your right.
5. Preperation, practice, performance
6. I orderd mine from the states.. although i didn't use amazon.

In reply to Xboulder:

2. My point is that the BRYCS is a series of REGIONAl events with a NATIONAL final ie it is both regional & national and semantics are just semantics.

6. Come on then, spill the beans, how did you order it.

In reply to MattH: The problem of dates seems to have been caused by the desire to hold the event in the school term, these avoiding times when children may be away. Now that some schools have 3 term years and others have 6 term years this is going to become a regular difficulty.

A problem I saw at the first round, caused by competing over consecutive weeks, was that an injured climber is unlikely to recover in time for the second round.

Could advance publicity make it clear that the older age group lead. Last year one boy I met had never lead before the first round, and another had only lead for two weeks. This year I met a boy who had only lead for two weeks. Many climbing walls running clubs have an age 14 restriction placed on leading due to insurance, so they have to learn to lead outside the club.

In reply to Colin Osborn: Thanks for the feedback Colin.

Setting the dates is a nightmare. Some of the variables that come into play are:

Avoiding the exam periods (THE most important variable - we did check the variation in the main exam period for this year)
Avoiding school holidays
Fitting in with the walls requirements (quite important as the walls let us use their facilities for virtually nothing and subsidise the BRYCS enormously)
Avoiding other major events eg the Outdoors Show as the BMC staff and volunteers can't be doing both these events and BRYCS
Avoiding BICC & BBC dates

So we will never please all of the people all of the time.

Regarding the question of leading. It does mention the fact that 13-15 do their routes on lead in the Rough Guide which is attached to the entry forms. There is only so much info that we can put on the flyers and posters (which incidentally do have a photo of a BRYCS competitor leading) so I don't know how to address this issue (although it is the first time in 7 years that it has been brought to my attention)

Graeme Alderson

In reply to graeme alderson:

In England and Wales, since the change in the BRYCS age qualifying date, GCSE's rarely clash with the series (the vast majority of candidates sit the exams in their first year of being too old for the BRYCS). On the other hand, Keystage 3 SAT's (13-14 year olds) are invariably in the first week of May so they haven't been avoided this year.
It would be useful to hear from someone familiar with the external exam dates in Scotland....

The changing and numerous school holiday structures are certainly going to cut down the options in future.

This year's posters and flyers both state that 13-15's lead their routes. Nevertheless, here in the London and SE we had two competitors in that category who were initially unaware that they were required to lead and that's the first time I remember it happening in six years. Strange.

In reply to Mark Alderson: Its all changed since I were a lad - don't remember doing any exams at 13-14 that were important!

In reply to graeme alderson:

Didn't say they were important, just *external*

Point is, the _more_ important exams (GCSE and above) are sat several months after a youngster's last opportinity to to do the BRYCS.

In reply to Mark Alderson: You mean we might have got something right

In reply to graeme alderson: Some BMC events are obviously not so important like the AGM and diner which would be pretty much impossible to attend by anyone going to the Brycs unless they finish really early! Though I guess the BMC staff will attend the AGM and dinner and not the Brycs, its just the parents and supporters of the Brycs that are unable to attend. I have nominated the chair to vote for me Graeme but I will miss buying you a beer or a glass of vin rouge or two at the dinner!

In reply to Ian Dunn: The AGM did not even come into it! I won't even be at the dinner as I need to be compus mentus on Sunday to go to China on Monday to start the planning process for the World Youth's (in my own time I hasten to add). Anyway BMC Annual Dinners just won't be the same since we stopped writing guidebook stock off

In reply to MattH:


I am hoping to get some more info on these regional comps and other ones for next year. Where can I get the information?

theofffice@bmc have not been replying to me and it seems that you lot have a lot to do with the organisation of all this!

Thanks....

In reply to MattH:

Whats the minimum age for competing?

In reply to MattH: Personally I think this is satan's spwan and amongst the worst things to happen to climbing over the last decade.

If you want your kids to climb, take them climbing outside.

Competitions, whether for the piano, painting, poetry or climbing strike at the heart of what makes each, in its own way special.