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Should you or shouldn't you? I don't follow closely what's going on with this but I was under the impression that it had been established that there is no link between MMR and autism. A bloke at work has been on the phone debating with his wife on whether or not to get there son done today.
In reply to Mick's Daughter @ Work:
I was struggling with this last year so choose what seemed to be the safer option - it can work out expensive for all the single jabs but who cares when your child could be at risk! (however remote the risk is supposed to be)
There does seem to have been a lot of conflicting reports in the past and a lot of conflicting information. Not a lot of information about those who say it is safe practicing what they preach though e.g Gordon Brown's child etc
I was struggling with this last year so choose what seemed to be the safer option - it can work out expensive for all the single jabs but who cares when your child could be at risk! (however remote the risk is supposed to be)
There does seem to have been a lot of conflicting reports in the past and a lot of conflicting information. Not a lot of information about those who say it is safe practicing what they preach though e.g Gordon Brown's child etc
In reply to Mick's Daughter @ Work:
theres no link (except that the first indications of autism appear at a time which is normally after vaccination). the original work (involving abot a dozen people - when dealing with humans, this is a v small sample size) claiming a link has been thoroughly discredited. Much larger scale studies have been published since and have found no basis for a possible cause and effect. It was Sam Johnson who pointed out the medical profession's tendency to confuse subsequence for consequence.
theres no link (except that the first indications of autism appear at a time which is normally after vaccination). the original work (involving abot a dozen people - when dealing with humans, this is a v small sample size) claiming a link has been thoroughly discredited. Much larger scale studies have been published since and have found no basis for a possible cause and effect. It was Sam Johnson who pointed out the medical profession's tendency to confuse subsequence for consequence.
In reply to Mick's Daughter @ Work: no link, just a daily mail pack of bollocks.
In reply to Mick's Daughter @ Work:
When vaccinating our children, i looked at the associated risks of 3 options
1- not vaccinating
2- vaccination by MMR
3- vaccination using 3 seperate jabs.
As not having the vaccination was not really an option that only really that left 2 and 3.
what is not really explained is that if you have the jabs seperately then you cant have them all at once and need to make 3 sepeerate trips to the doctors.
The period in-between having the jabs when the baby is not protected puts them at more risk than having the MMR in one go. So by default almost we came back to the MMR
When we were deciding we consulted the midwife and doctor and got the same story.
When vaccinating our children, i looked at the associated risks of 3 options
1- not vaccinating
2- vaccination by MMR
3- vaccination using 3 seperate jabs.
As not having the vaccination was not really an option that only really that left 2 and 3.
what is not really explained is that if you have the jabs seperately then you cant have them all at once and need to make 3 sepeerate trips to the doctors.
The period in-between having the jabs when the baby is not protected puts them at more risk than having the MMR in one go. So by default almost we came back to the MMR
When we were deciding we consulted the midwife and doctor and got the same story.
In reply to Mick's Daughter @ Work: I will be coming up for that very same decision soon enough with my young son, and I am of the opinion that the risks far outway any remote, hypothetical, possible risk of autism. Mumps can kill. So when the time comes I am afraid that Jack (my son) will be getting his MMR jab.
Jonathan
Jonathan
In reply to Martin Brown:
Apparently it also costs £540 if you want them done seperately (according to this chap in my office).
Apparently it also costs £540 if you want them done seperately (according to this chap in my office).
In reply to stonewall:
Oh yes! The famous Sam Johnson the Texan Republican who claimed that WMDs were buried in Syria and subsequently suggested nuking them. Wonder what the consequences of that reasoned and fully thought through action might be.
jim.
> It was Sam Johnson who pointed out the medical profession's tendency to confuse subsequence for consequence.
Oh yes! The famous Sam Johnson the Texan Republican who claimed that WMDs were buried in Syria and subsequently suggested nuking them. Wonder what the consequences of that reasoned and fully thought through action might be.
jim.
In reply to Mick's Daughter @ Work:
My wife is a pediatric nurse and we have had no problems with giving our daughter the MMR. The study linking it with autism has been widely discredited, and there is much more postive evidence out there that the media doesnt bother reporting. Having heard stories from my wife about how measles can affect a small child, there is only really one decision. As for seperate jabs, you can do it but it is a waste of money really.
Simon
My wife is a pediatric nurse and we have had no problems with giving our daughter the MMR. The study linking it with autism has been widely discredited, and there is much more postive evidence out there that the media doesnt bother reporting. Having heard stories from my wife about how measles can affect a small child, there is only really one decision. As for seperate jabs, you can do it but it is a waste of money really.
Simon
In reply to Mick's Daughter @ Work:
I don't have children, so I only pay attention to this story from a 'bad science' point of view. There was a Japanese study reported earlier this year which had followed autism cases over a period of time when the triple vaccine was taken out of use and replaced with individual vaccines. If there were a link between MMR and autism, this would have shown up in this study. But there was no attributable change in the numbers of autism cases - in other words, no difference between single vaccines and triple vaccines.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/4311613.stm
I don't have children, so I only pay attention to this story from a 'bad science' point of view. There was a Japanese study reported earlier this year which had followed autism cases over a period of time when the triple vaccine was taken out of use and replaced with individual vaccines. If there were a link between MMR and autism, this would have shown up in this study. But there was no attributable change in the numbers of autism cases - in other words, no difference between single vaccines and triple vaccines.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/4311613.stm
In reply to Mick's Daughter @ Work:
Like many above have said, MMr isnt linked to autism. What is a greater risk is the damage this will be doing to kids from them having a greater risk of contracting more potent strains of the viruses the jab protects against. Measles mumps and rubella can all cause blindness, deafness and brain damage, and are on the rise because of the media scares. Its stupid really...
Like many above have said, MMr isnt linked to autism. What is a greater risk is the damage this will be doing to kids from them having a greater risk of contracting more potent strains of the viruses the jab protects against. Measles mumps and rubella can all cause blindness, deafness and brain damage, and are on the rise because of the media scares. Its stupid really...
In reply to Mick's Daughter @ Work:
Its interesting that, even after apparent irrefutable discreditation of the original report, intelligent people (employees of the NHS included) are still unconvinced over this issue. Trusting evidence seems to be the issue.
jim.
Its interesting that, even after apparent irrefutable discreditation of the original report, intelligent people (employees of the NHS included) are still unconvinced over this issue. Trusting evidence seems to be the issue.
jim.
In reply to Professor Kipps:
Glad to see you went and looked at all the risks before making a decision. For those of who can't be bothered to look up the details, what is the rate of side effects from the single vaccine? I mean, after all, if it's 'safer' then you must have checked the rate of side effects, failure rate etc of all the possible options, rather than just listening to the (unproven) scares about MMR, right?
(Sorry, I get annoyed by people who will listen to the scare stories but not search for some proven evidence about the two options instead. I'd like to know if you'd still make the same decision now though?)
> (In reply to Mick's Daughter @ Work)
>
> I was struggling with this last year so choose what seemed to be the safer option - it can work out expensive for all the single jabs but who cares when your child could be at risk! (however remote the risk is supposed to be)
>
> I was struggling with this last year so choose what seemed to be the safer option - it can work out expensive for all the single jabs but who cares when your child could be at risk! (however remote the risk is supposed to be)
Glad to see you went and looked at all the risks before making a decision. For those of who can't be bothered to look up the details, what is the rate of side effects from the single vaccine? I mean, after all, if it's 'safer' then you must have checked the rate of side effects, failure rate etc of all the possible options, rather than just listening to the (unproven) scares about MMR, right?
(Sorry, I get annoyed by people who will listen to the scare stories but not search for some proven evidence about the two options instead. I'd like to know if you'd still make the same decision now though?)
In reply to Mick's Daughter @ Work:
There is no scientifically established link (as far as we know from creditable research). The MMR-autism link research, onm which the recent 'scare' was based, has been thoroughly discredited.
There is no scientifically established link (as far as we know from creditable research). The MMR-autism link research, onm which the recent 'scare' was based, has been thoroughly discredited.
In reply to Greenbanks:
It would appear that your position is not exactly fully accepted by the medical profession.
"A THIRD of family doctors still have doubts about the safety of the triple MMR vaccine, a new survey suggests, threatening to make it impossible to reach immunisation targets.
A survey of GPs in the Highlands has revealed that just under half of doctors in the area feel uncomfortable discussing the jab with patients.
Nearly 15% did not think the benefits of the combined mumps, measles and rubella vaccine outweighed the possible risks. And 28% were concerned about the possible side effects of the vaccine."
http://news.scotsman.com/archive.cfm?id=407882005
It would appear that your position is not exactly fully accepted by the medical profession.
"A THIRD of family doctors still have doubts about the safety of the triple MMR vaccine, a new survey suggests, threatening to make it impossible to reach immunisation targets.
A survey of GPs in the Highlands has revealed that just under half of doctors in the area feel uncomfortable discussing the jab with patients.
Nearly 15% did not think the benefits of the combined mumps, measles and rubella vaccine outweighed the possible risks. And 28% were concerned about the possible side effects of the vaccine."
http://news.scotsman.com/archive.cfm?id=407882005
In reply to Dr U Idh:
That's far more frightening. Hundreds of GPs who have negligable skill in weighing clinical evidence.
Makes you wonder what else they're f*cking up.
That's far more frightening. Hundreds of GPs who have negligable skill in weighing clinical evidence.
Makes you wonder what else they're f*cking up.
In reply to Greenbanks:
I am the only child in my family to have had the whooping cough vaccine because it nearly killed me. I've never read anything about side effects of that vaccine though.
I am the only child in my family to have had the whooping cough vaccine because it nearly killed me. I've never read anything about side effects of that vaccine though.
In reply to Mick's Daughter @ Work: All this single vaccine business has been an interesting insight in to the way people think. Whilst there is overwhelming evidence that the combined MMR is safe, the validity / safety of giving the single jabs in series has much less evidence in its favour and yet the anti-MMR mongers seem perfectly happy to dispense this relatively unproven combo willy-nilly to anyone with a suitably healthy bank account and the middle classes seeem more than happy to lap up the if A then Z logic they heard at Reiki class and subject their kids to the potentially inferior regimen.
It's been enjoyable to see the originators of the "scandal" get their come-uppance though. Incidentally, being in the business and 40 a very large proportion of my friends are healthcare professionals (mainly GPs and hospital consultants) and have had kids over the last few years, and to the best of my knowledge not one of them has ever considered avoiding the MMR, even at the height of the scare because they looked at the actual evidence. A deep suspicion of the medical profession amongst the chattering classes combined with the actions of some ruthless and cynical careerists and the tragic stories of families affected by autism grasping at straws was whipped up by the media to create this whole sorry business. Hopefully there's a lesson in there somewhere.
Cheers, Paul
It's been enjoyable to see the originators of the "scandal" get their come-uppance though. Incidentally, being in the business and 40 a very large proportion of my friends are healthcare professionals (mainly GPs and hospital consultants) and have had kids over the last few years, and to the best of my knowledge not one of them has ever considered avoiding the MMR, even at the height of the scare because they looked at the actual evidence. A deep suspicion of the medical profession amongst the chattering classes combined with the actions of some ruthless and cynical careerists and the tragic stories of families affected by autism grasping at straws was whipped up by the media to create this whole sorry business. Hopefully there's a lesson in there somewhere.
Cheers, Paul
In reply to Mick's Daughter @ Work:
A large number of vaccines, including MMR, can cause side effects, ranging from inflammation at the injection site, feeling a bit crap, right up to, in a very small number of cases, very severe side-effects - which in a tiny number of people can prove fatal.
The risk/benefit balance takes these and compares them with likely mortality and morbidity among an unvaccinated population. Which is why you don't get vaccines for diseases that don't cause long term damage or death.
> (In reply to Greenbanks)
>
> I am the only child in my family to have had the whooping cough vaccine because it nearly killed me. I've never read anything about side effects of that vaccine though.
>
> I am the only child in my family to have had the whooping cough vaccine because it nearly killed me. I've never read anything about side effects of that vaccine though.
A large number of vaccines, including MMR, can cause side effects, ranging from inflammation at the injection site, feeling a bit crap, right up to, in a very small number of cases, very severe side-effects - which in a tiny number of people can prove fatal.
The risk/benefit balance takes these and compares them with likely mortality and morbidity among an unvaccinated population. Which is why you don't get vaccines for diseases that don't cause long term damage or death.
In reply to hutchm:
Luckily none of my siblings caught whooping cough. If I'd been in my parents' position there's no way I'd have had my subsequent children vaccinated.
Luckily none of my siblings caught whooping cough. If I'd been in my parents' position there's no way I'd have had my subsequent children vaccinated.
In reply to Mick's Daughter @ Work:
While it's unlikely that the problems would happen again, without a obvious reason why they happened to you, I can understand their reluctance...
> (In reply to hutchm)
>
> Luckily none of my siblings caught whooping cough. If I'd been in my parents' position there's no way I'd have had my subsequent children vaccinated.
>
> Luckily none of my siblings caught whooping cough. If I'd been in my parents' position there's no way I'd have had my subsequent children vaccinated.
While it's unlikely that the problems would happen again, without a obvious reason why they happened to you, I can understand their reluctance...
In reply to Mick's Daughter @ Work:
Shit!!!
That reminds me we need to get our daughter mmr'd fairly soon. We didn't get hers done previously as we were more worried about the possible reactions she may or may not have to it and so much to do with the Autism claims. She a sensitive wee thing and went through a period of coming out with bizarre unknown rashes.
Shit!!!
That reminds me we need to get our daughter mmr'd fairly soon. We didn't get hers done previously as we were more worried about the possible reactions she may or may not have to it and so much to do with the Autism claims. She a sensitive wee thing and went through a period of coming out with bizarre unknown rashes.
In reply to climbing haggis:
Poor thing. I guess you have to weigh up the risk of an adverse reaction against the risk of catching one of them. I don't think I was particularly prone to reactions until I had the whooping cough vaccine.
Poor thing. I guess you have to weigh up the risk of an adverse reaction against the risk of catching one of them. I don't think I was particularly prone to reactions until I had the whooping cough vaccine.
In reply to Mick's Daughter @ Work: Your colleague might find the following articles informative:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/life/feature/story/0,,1103958,00.html
http://society.guardian.co.uk/publichealth/story/0,,1154945,00.html
http://www.guardian.co.uk/life/feature/story/0,,1103958,00.html
http://society.guardian.co.uk/publichealth/story/0,,1154945,00.html
In reply to Tobs at work:
here here
> (In reply to Mick's Daughter @ Work) no link, just a daily mail pack of bollocks.
here here
In reply to psd:
I did some 'research', but in hindsight (always desirable) i may have made a different decision - at the time the heart ruled the head but there were scare stories on both sides... whatever parents choose though i'm sure they do it in the 'best' interests of their child! It's sometimes difficult to sort the chaff from the wheat...
> (In reply to Professor Kipps)
> [...]
>
> Glad to see you went and looked at all the risks before making a decision. For those of who can't be bothered to look up the details, what is the rate of side effects from the single vaccine? I mean, after all, if it's 'safer' then you must have checked the rate of side effects, failure rate etc of all the possible options, rather than just listening to the (unproven) scares about MMR, right?
>
> (Sorry, I get annoyed by people who will listen to the scare stories but not search for some proven evidence about the two options instead. I'd like to know if you'd still make the same decision now though?)
> [...]
>
> Glad to see you went and looked at all the risks before making a decision. For those of who can't be bothered to look up the details, what is the rate of side effects from the single vaccine? I mean, after all, if it's 'safer' then you must have checked the rate of side effects, failure rate etc of all the possible options, rather than just listening to the (unproven) scares about MMR, right?
>
> (Sorry, I get annoyed by people who will listen to the scare stories but not search for some proven evidence about the two options instead. I'd like to know if you'd still make the same decision now though?)
I did some 'research', but in hindsight (always desirable) i may have made a different decision - at the time the heart ruled the head but there were scare stories on both sides... whatever parents choose though i'm sure they do it in the 'best' interests of their child! It's sometimes difficult to sort the chaff from the wheat...
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