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It just don't make the sense God gave a mule.
Was out playing last night and did a very nice VS 5a smooth and controlled with a technical finish...mmmm...beautiful.
I then attempted a HS 4a close by that I have backed off once before....and yep it had me again!!
I just don't get it. The last section of the HS seems to really mess with your head with its loose, slopey, mantley finish. Twice now I have had my ass kicked by the fecker yet the grade is well within my range.
Any one else have a similar nemesis - ie one that is well within your grade range but just seems to wup yo ass every time?
(I know grading can be a little subjective but not usually to such a massive degree)
Was out playing last night and did a very nice VS 5a smooth and controlled with a technical finish...mmmm...beautiful.
I then attempted a HS 4a close by that I have backed off once before....and yep it had me again!!
I just don't get it. The last section of the HS seems to really mess with your head with its loose, slopey, mantley finish. Twice now I have had my ass kicked by the fecker yet the grade is well within my range.
Any one else have a similar nemesis - ie one that is well within your grade range but just seems to wup yo ass every time?
(I know grading can be a little subjective but not usually to such a massive degree)
In reply to Obi Wan: Lots of bogies out there. Remember the grade is for the average, not for everyone. If your climbing is better suited to one kind of climbing than another, when you encounter 'the other,' it will seem harder. I can do hard (for me) slabs and faces, for instance, but always struggle on finger cracks. Or it might just be undergraded.
In reply to Steve Parker:
True, and I can usually get my head round the differing personal styles affecting the grade but for some reason this one seems to feel different - almost like I should be able to do it but just at the crucial point the evil route sends subliminal messages into your head and makes you lose it - Its laughing at me now, I know it!!
Usually if it is just a case of being a route suited to someone with a different personal style I can work it, and work it out and it may just feel a little harder than its grade (to me) but this just grabs me by the head and shakes me about before kicking me off.
True, and I can usually get my head round the differing personal styles affecting the grade but for some reason this one seems to feel different - almost like I should be able to do it but just at the crucial point the evil route sends subliminal messages into your head and makes you lose it - Its laughing at me now, I know it!!
Usually if it is just a case of being a route suited to someone with a different personal style I can work it, and work it out and it may just feel a little harder than its grade (to me) but this just grabs me by the head and shakes me about before kicking me off.
In reply to Obi Wan:
There's one route at the manchester indoor wall that gets me every time.
I've seconded it and its a relatively easy climb although on a slight overhang but with quite good holds. Its graded about 5c i think and i've led higher, harder routes there without any trouble but i just can't get my head around leading this one.
There's one route at the manchester indoor wall that gets me every time.
I've seconded it and its a relatively easy climb although on a slight overhang but with quite good holds. Its graded about 5c i think and i've led higher, harder routes there without any trouble but i just can't get my head around leading this one.
This kind of apparent contradiction would be expected if you, as a climber, are more constrained by your head than your technical ability. I know nothing about the routes but I would expect HS 4a could be pretty bold, while VS 5a should be reasonably safe.
I have backed off several HS 4a's as they did not contain nice enough climbing to warrant the risks.
I have backed off several HS 4a's as they did not contain nice enough climbing to warrant the risks.
In reply to Obi Wan:
Ive often found that - HS seem to contain weird technical moves that are easy once / if you have the knack but annoying if you dont.
Ive often found that - HS seem to contain weird technical moves that are easy once / if you have the knack but annoying if you dont.
In reply to Obi Wan:
HS has always been a rather nasty grade, and tends to be unsatisfactory. Not a proper VS, but unpleasantly hard for Severe.
HS has always been a rather nasty grade, and tends to be unsatisfactory. Not a proper VS, but unpleasantly hard for Severe.
In reply to Obi Wan: I tend to agree - they often seem to me to be 'Traditional' routes! I think they might more often call upon techniques which you don't learn indoors.
In reply to Obi Wan:
As Bobman pointed out, you're not really comparing like with like. HS 4a is comparable to VS 4b, or HS 4c to VS 5a.
As Bobman pointed out, you're not really comparing like with like. HS 4a is comparable to VS 4b, or HS 4c to VS 5a.
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
That is an excellent way of describing it, I think sometimes your head is thinking "HS is a pleasent stroll, just above S" but then it can take you by surprise and bite you on the ass. Whereas with VS you are subconciuosly/psychologically prepared.
> (In reply to Obi Wan)
>
> Not a proper VS, but unpleasantly hard for Severe.
>
> Not a proper VS, but unpleasantly hard for Severe.
That is an excellent way of describing it, I think sometimes your head is thinking "HS is a pleasent stroll, just above S" but then it can take you by surprise and bite you on the ass. Whereas with VS you are subconciuosly/psychologically prepared.
In reply to Simon Caldwell:
I wasn't exactly "comparing" the grades as such, just making a point that surley one is a lower grade than the other but I can climb the "harder" one and not the "easier" one.
> (In reply to Obi Wan)
> As Bobman pointed out, you're not really comparing like with like. HS 4a is comparable to VS 4b, or HS 4c to VS 5a.
> As Bobman pointed out, you're not really comparing like with like. HS 4a is comparable to VS 4b, or HS 4c to VS 5a.
I wasn't exactly "comparing" the grades as such, just making a point that surley one is a lower grade than the other but I can climb the "harder" one and not the "easier" one.
In reply to Obi Wan:
I think of HS as just another normal grade, which sits between S and VS. It's even got it's own 'standard' technical grade - S 4a, HS 4b, VS 4c. I don't think there are any more sandbag HSs than any other grade.
Perhaps it's as you say, you're (maybe subconsciously) thinking it's just a tricky Severe, when it's actuially a grade harder. Yet no-one really thinks of HVS as being just a tricky VS do they?
I think of HS as just another normal grade, which sits between S and VS. It's even got it's own 'standard' technical grade - S 4a, HS 4b, VS 4c. I don't think there are any more sandbag HSs than any other grade.
Perhaps it's as you say, you're (maybe subconsciously) thinking it's just a tricky Severe, when it's actuially a grade harder. Yet no-one really thinks of HVS as being just a tricky VS do they?
In reply to Obi Wan:
HS 4a is technically easier than VS 5a. When it comes to mind-games, it's the other way round
> one is a lower grade than the other but I can climb the "harder" one and not the "easier" one.
HS 4a is technically easier than VS 5a. When it comes to mind-games, it's the other way round
In reply to Simon Caldwell:
Good point well made.
HVS is viewed as HVS in its own right.
Happen it is just one of those routes that plays with my head when it doesn't flow.
As somebody already pointed out, it is often my head that stops me on certain routes rather than my technical ability.
Good point well made.
HVS is viewed as HVS in its own right.
Happen it is just one of those routes that plays with my head when it doesn't flow.
As somebody already pointed out, it is often my head that stops me on certain routes rather than my technical ability.
In reply to Obi Wan:
Hard Severe is a lot of people's bogey grade - I suspect its because there are probably more soft touch VS (which should be HS)than any other grade range. Therefore, many people's calibration of what constitutes VS is out.
Hard Severe is a lot of people's bogey grade - I suspect its because there are probably more soft touch VS (which should be HS)than any other grade range. Therefore, many people's calibration of what constitutes VS is out.
In reply to Obi Wan: Ive climbed upto E1, but i still sometimes get on a severe and shit myself, it's one of the many things that keeps climbing fun !
In reply to Adam Moroz:
Indeed it is, don't get me wrong I enjoyed the adrenalin and the shaking like a sh*tting dog, its all part of the game that I love so much.
Just find it a little bizzare sometimes how your grade can seem to differ so greatly in the same day.
Indeed it is, don't get me wrong I enjoyed the adrenalin and the shaking like a sh*tting dog, its all part of the game that I love so much.
Just find it a little bizzare sometimes how your grade can seem to differ so greatly in the same day.
In reply to Obi Wan: The way i look at it is, the climbs that were done early on before the VS and HVS grades etc. when severe was the highest grade around are still bloody hard nowadays!
In reply to Obi Wan:
I think you should give some more thought to the meaning of the relationship between the adjectival and technical part of the grade.
I am not surprised that a strong, but cautious, climber would find an HS 4a harder than a VS 5a. For a weak, but brave, climber the converse would be true.
If you didn't like this one then generally be wary of HS 4a's, VS 4b's and HVS 4c's.
I think you should give some more thought to the meaning of the relationship between the adjectival and technical part of the grade.
I am not surprised that a strong, but cautious, climber would find an HS 4a harder than a VS 5a. For a weak, but brave, climber the converse would be true.
If you didn't like this one then generally be wary of HS 4a's, VS 4b's and HVS 4c's.
In reply to Bobman:
Hang on. HS 4a should be relatively safe if the HS is for the relatively high tech grade. And if HS4a feels harder than VS5a then one, or both, are incorrectly graded. HS3 something may 'feel' harder if it get the H for boldness but I can't think of any.
Hang on. HS 4a should be relatively safe if the HS is for the relatively high tech grade. And if HS4a feels harder than VS5a then one, or both, are incorrectly graded. HS3 something may 'feel' harder if it get the H for boldness but I can't think of any.
In reply to Bobman:
I have done many HS's and VS's,its not as if it was my first it just seems that this particular one has it in for me.
> (In reply to Obi Wan)
>
> >
> If you didn't like this one then generally be wary of HS 4a's, VS 4b's and HVS 4c's.
>
> >
> If you didn't like this one then generally be wary of HS 4a's, VS 4b's and HVS 4c's.
I have done many HS's and VS's,its not as if it was my first it just seems that this particular one has it in for me.
In reply to Obi Wan:
Of course it's entirely possible that you've been sandbagged What was the route?
Of course it's entirely possible that you've been sandbagged What was the route?
In reply to Yorkspud:
HS 4a has a 4a tech grade which (if the crux is not low, and the gear at least passable etc.) would normally tend to get a S grade. In this case it gets an HS grade. This suggests it is either a touch on the bold side, or a touch on the strenuous side.
VS 5a, on the other hand, suggests a route less strenuous or less bold than you would expect for a 5a technical grade (normally associated with HVS). one possible explanation would be excellent, easily placed gear.
My point is that if the Obi Wan is a strong climber (easily capable of managing the technical grade of both climbs) but cautious (feels uncomfortable with bold routes) then he may easily back off the HS but not the VS.
Since you will rarely see an HS 3c or a VS 4a, a route given HS 4a may vary from bold right up to totally unprotected. This is why I am generally wary of them.
HS 4a has a 4a tech grade which (if the crux is not low, and the gear at least passable etc.) would normally tend to get a S grade. In this case it gets an HS grade. This suggests it is either a touch on the bold side, or a touch on the strenuous side.
VS 5a, on the other hand, suggests a route less strenuous or less bold than you would expect for a 5a technical grade (normally associated with HVS). one possible explanation would be excellent, easily placed gear.
My point is that if the Obi Wan is a strong climber (easily capable of managing the technical grade of both climbs) but cautious (feels uncomfortable with bold routes) then he may easily back off the HS but not the VS.
Since you will rarely see an HS 3c or a VS 4a, a route given HS 4a may vary from bold right up to totally unprotected. This is why I am generally wary of them.
In reply to Obi Wan:
Have tried to lead Satan (was that the VS 5a) which freaked me out a bit (had to traverse onto Walpurgis Eve to finish), have had a look at Baalbreth and it doesn't
look at all nice. Doesn't look like there is much in the way of protection. Have found in Witches that the top outs can be a bit scary (loose, no protection, hanging on to tufts of grass and nettles). However, the good routes are really good. You were right about Peel Off!
> (In reply to Simon Caldwell)
>
> Baalbreth - witches quarry.
>
> Baalbreth - witches quarry.
Have tried to lead Satan (was that the VS 5a) which freaked me out a bit (had to traverse onto Walpurgis Eve to finish), have had a look at Baalbreth and it doesn't
look at all nice. Doesn't look like there is much in the way of protection. Have found in Witches that the top outs can be a bit scary (loose, no protection, hanging on to tufts of grass and nettles). However, the good routes are really good. You were right about Peel Off!
In reply to Obi Wan:
many years ago when I could lead E2/3 there was a HS in the Burbage Quarries that I regularly failed on. Can't recall the name but it was an easy scrabble to the final very off width crack. No gear and nothing to climb on! I always reckoned a chockstone had fallen out of it since the guide had been written.
After very many years of doing other things I'm going back to the Peak for some climbing at the end of the month. I'm only good for VS/HVS now. I won't be going anywhere near that boggy route!!
many years ago when I could lead E2/3 there was a HS in the Burbage Quarries that I regularly failed on. Can't recall the name but it was an easy scrabble to the final very off width crack. No gear and nothing to climb on! I always reckoned a chockstone had fallen out of it since the guide had been written.
After very many years of doing other things I'm going back to the Peak for some climbing at the end of the month. I'm only good for VS/HVS now. I won't be going anywhere near that boggy route!!
In reply to sandywilson:
Very astute.
It was indeed Satan. Found it a very pleasent route - easy to start, with an interesting top section.
Walruspig Eve is a beauty of a route though, a classic at its grade I reckon, and Peel Off is excellent.
So, what made you freak on Satan then?
(I wouldn't bother with Baalbreth by the way it is as you describe - not nice, not much pro, and very loose and scrappy)
Very astute.
It was indeed Satan. Found it a very pleasent route - easy to start, with an interesting top section.
Walruspig Eve is a beauty of a route though, a classic at its grade I reckon, and Peel Off is excellent.
So, what made you freak on Satan then?
(I wouldn't bother with Baalbreth by the way it is as you describe - not nice, not much pro, and very loose and scrappy)
In reply to Obi Wan:
> (In reply to sandywilson)
>
> So, what made you freak on Satan then?
>
It was the top bit. I'd protected it with a friend and a walnut (both none too reassuring) in the horizontal break and made the move over the bulge. I couldn't keep going with the dodgy pro below my feet, so I downclimbed and traversed. I feel a bit stupid about it now! It would have been more straightforward and probably safer to keep going. I have seconded the route without a problem. This is a theme with my leading at the moment, having the confidence to run it out above protection.
>
> So, what made you freak on Satan then?
>
In reply to Bobman:
Depends how you view the HS grade itself. If you take VS as being 4a too 5a Severe as 3a to 4a 4a severes should be equivalent to VS 5a's but I take your point that if you have an independant HS/MVS grade the the 4a will be at the bolder end...probably.
Depends how you view the HS grade itself. If you take VS as being 4a too 5a Severe as 3a to 4a 4a severes should be equivalent to VS 5a's but I take your point that if you have an independant HS/MVS grade the the 4a will be at the bolder end...probably.
In reply to Yorkspud:
I agree. I think my understanding of adjectival vs technical grade may be slightly different from yours (It does seem to vary from table to table).
In the Gower & SE Wales guidebook (the one I am most familiar with) S's are mostly 4a and some ungraded. VS's are mostly 4c and some 4b while HS's seem to be split between 4a and 4b.
> Depends how you view the HS grade itself.
I agree. I think my understanding of adjectival vs technical grade may be slightly different from yours (It does seem to vary from table to table).
In the Gower & SE Wales guidebook (the one I am most familiar with) S's are mostly 4a and some ungraded. VS's are mostly 4c and some 4b while HS's seem to be split between 4a and 4b.
In reply to sandywilson:
Found the very last move the most committing but there are good footholds and some sneaky little finger edges.
Do you do much bouldering?
I found bouldering (escpecially on the higher problems) a good way to boost your confidence at leaving your gear below and running out above it.
I think subconciuosly you tend to think that you might come off but its ok cos thats what the gear is for, but then an evil little voice in the back of your head tells you the gear is not so good.
When bouldering the subconcious mind thinks "do it or splat" so I think you tend to make a more focused effort at finishing the problem (without the psychological safety net of pro).
Worked for me anyhow..
Found the very last move the most committing but there are good footholds and some sneaky little finger edges.
Do you do much bouldering?
I found bouldering (escpecially on the higher problems) a good way to boost your confidence at leaving your gear below and running out above it.
I think subconciuosly you tend to think that you might come off but its ok cos thats what the gear is for, but then an evil little voice in the back of your head tells you the gear is not so good.
When bouldering the subconcious mind thinks "do it or splat" so I think you tend to make a more focused effort at finishing the problem (without the psychological safety net of pro).
Worked for me anyhow..
In reply to Bobman:
I think Mica Eliminate at Tremadog goes at HS 3a. Certainly has an 'oh dear' moment just before you get to the arete.
I think Mica Eliminate at Tremadog goes at HS 3a. Certainly has an 'oh dear' moment just before you get to the arete.
In reply to Obi Wan:
I have not been able to lead anything for about 4 weeks. My climbing partner tore ankle ligaments, then knackered his shoulder at the gym, then I went on holiday for two weeks and now he goes on holiday for a week. I have been doing a fair amount of bouldering (I took Guide Tennies on hols) and will push the boat out a bit over the coming week before Danny returns from his jollies. Thanks for the advice.
I have not been able to lead anything for about 4 weeks. My climbing partner tore ankle ligaments, then knackered his shoulder at the gym, then I went on holiday for two weeks and now he goes on holiday for a week. I have been doing a fair amount of bouldering (I took Guide Tennies on hols) and will push the boat out a bit over the coming week before Danny returns from his jollies. Thanks for the advice.
In reply to Obi Wan: A few tears ago I cruised up up Birch Tree Wall, VS 5a, ( both variations ) at Black Rocks and then fell off Stonnis Crack, S, which I found desperate.
In reply to Obi Wan: It's first ascent was 70 years before I climbed it, although the person who led the first ascent obviously had more talent than me. My excuse is that I'm a Lakes climber and it's a jamming crack.
Has anyone else here climbed it? In my mind it's ever so slightly overhanging, but I know that I'm about to be told that it's a gently angled slab.
Has anyone else here climbed it? In my mind it's ever so slightly overhanging, but I know that I'm about to be told that it's a gently angled slab.
In reply to michael donohue:
Stonnis is now HS
Stonnis is now HS
In reply to Obi Wan:
UKCs resident grading expert has this excellent article on his website:
http://www.aqvi55.dsl.pipex.com/climb/uk_grades.htm
One of the interesting insights is that you have to factor how easy the crux is to work out (mentally) into the grade. This explains a lot of my problems as I am stupid.
UKCs resident grading expert has this excellent article on his website:
http://www.aqvi55.dsl.pipex.com/climb/uk_grades.htm
One of the interesting insights is that you have to factor how easy the crux is to work out (mentally) into the grade. This explains a lot of my problems as I am stupid.
In reply to CurlyStevo: Have you ever climbed it? What makes me more certain that it's gently overhanging is that when I fell ( and my mate dropped me almost the full length of the pitch, despite having my trusty Hex 9 placed at waist level; a little further and I would have broken my back on his head ) I was hanging free of the rock.
In reply to michael donohue: Has anyone here climbed Stonnis Crack?
In reply to michael donohue:
I soloed Stonnis crack in some daft fit of bravado many years back ! I guess physcology comes into it in that I had convinced myself it was "only severe" and I shouldn't find it too hard - especially since its solid jams. At the time, I thought severe was OK.
I soloed Stonnis crack in some daft fit of bravado many years back ! I guess physcology comes into it in that I had convinced myself it was "only severe" and I shouldn't find it too hard - especially since its solid jams. At the time, I thought severe was OK.
In reply to michael donohue:
Yes, a good route. Should be left at its traditional grade of Severe, even though IMO it is 4b. What is amazing about it is that I do not see how Puttrell could have climbed it without using (modern) hand jamming techniques, giving the lie to the oft repeated crap about hj being a relatively modern invention. E.g. Trevor Jones' Welsh Rock sums up 'Harding's contribution to the climbing world' (p.99) with this list:
1. Introduction of XS grading
2. Modern hand-jamming techniques for crack climbing
3. The first modern hard gritstone climb, Demon Rib.
(I happen to think he's wrong on all counts, and definitely wrong on number 1 - Owen Glynn Jones introduced the grade of Exceptionally Severe in 1900!)
Yes, a good route. Should be left at its traditional grade of Severe, even though IMO it is 4b. What is amazing about it is that I do not see how Puttrell could have climbed it without using (modern) hand jamming techniques, giving the lie to the oft repeated crap about hj being a relatively modern invention. E.g. Trevor Jones' Welsh Rock sums up 'Harding's contribution to the climbing world' (p.99) with this list:
1. Introduction of XS grading
2. Modern hand-jamming techniques for crack climbing
3. The first modern hard gritstone climb, Demon Rib.
(I happen to think he's wrong on all counts, and definitely wrong on number 1 - Owen Glynn Jones introduced the grade of Exceptionally Severe in 1900!)
In reply to Obi Wan: In scotland mountain hard severes need to be treated with caution and are pretty much always harder than VS's
In reply to Erik B:
Strangely, most of the ungradeable thrutches I've done have been HS, there's a route called corrugated cracks in the Glyders which is like vertical caving, ditto Siftas Quid at the roaches.
Strangely, most of the ungradeable thrutches I've done have been HS, there's a route called corrugated cracks in the Glyders which is like vertical caving, ditto Siftas Quid at the roaches.
In reply to Mooncat: aye, think thats the problem, sometimes impossible to give technical grades therefore HS is the easiest solution to the grading problem, quite often they are bold as brass as well as desperate.. maybe winter grades would be more beneficial for these routes!
In reply to Obi Wan: HS you want to try the Diffs in Northumberland and some Moderates!!!!!!!them feckers will kill ya and dont get me started on the indoor grades in the north east its as mad as a box of frogs, but how can people who climb 7a possibly know what a 4c is anymore, bastards and another one that bill birkett that gett i would love to give him a proper shoeing for his french rock! Daves canny though
In reply to Obi Wan:
I've been on many routes that do this to you.
I reckon "Vampire Crack" (VS) at The Whangie is harder than "Easy Contract" (HVS) in Cambusbarron West Quarry...I think both deserve HVS personally...and I was brought up jambing and offwidthing!!!
Paul
I've been on many routes that do this to you.
I reckon "Vampire Crack" (VS) at The Whangie is harder than "Easy Contract" (HVS) in Cambusbarron West Quarry...I think both deserve HVS personally...and I was brought up jambing and offwidthing!!!
Paul
In reply to Doughboy:
I thought my climbing was getting loads better, flying up HVS's on grit until i nearly bottled it on shadow wall in Llanberis last weekend that last move is tough!
I thought my climbing was getting loads better, flying up HVS's on grit until i nearly bottled it on shadow wall in Llanberis last weekend that last move is tough!
In reply to Gordon Stainforth: Gordon, to be honest I'm looking for a bit of ego soothing. The only reason I climbed it was because in the guidebook it said that it was the hardest climb in Derbyshire in 1922. Looking back, I can see see sandbag written all over it.
In reply to Obi Wan:
Jitter Face, Stanage is a harder lead/solo than 90% of VSs on the edge and used to get Vdiff.
Jitter Face, Stanage is a harder lead/solo than 90% of VSs on the edge and used to get Vdiff.
Try Rainmaker on Gear Aonach for the definitive Hard Severe sandbag. Wait for a very dry spell though.
The route is in my opinion solid VS and incredibly good. More people should do it.
The route is in my opinion solid VS and incredibly good. More people should do it.
In reply to Obi Wan:
Having read the whole thread up to this point, and looking for my first proper VS lead, and having led a HS before I'd lead a Severe...
...I'm a bit confused!
I've seconded Green Gut at Froggat (HS 4a), but wouldn't particularly want to go back and lead it, having been put off Hard Severes by then trying to lead Janker's Crack (HS 4b) having led nothing harder than a VDiff at that point)
But I seconded Eartha (HS 4a) at Millstone a few weeks ago, and regret bitterly not leading it first - but I will go back and lead that, and probably do Great Slab (HS 4b) on the same visit as an onsight...
If you really want to lead your nemesis HS, then I suggest you find someone else who will easily lead it, and not stitch it - and then second it. Then go back to the start and lead it right away.
I'm in a position where I'm looking for a first VS lead, having seconded 5 of them. I liked the 2 VS's at Curbar (Wall Climb & Grey Face - both VS 5a), liked Carmen at Aldery Cliff (VS 4c) and will go back and lead that next time, but hated Derek's Dilemma at Wildcat (VS 4c) and the VS at the right hand end of Brown Slab at Shepherd's Crag (don't have the guidebook, but VS 4c I think).
But I'm blowed if I'll lead either Green Gut, or Janker's Crack before I go for a VS lead, in fact I'm far more likely to have a go at Sunset Slab (HVS 4b) than Janker's Crack next time I'm at Froggatt - although Sunset Crack (HS 4c) is likely to be a test piece before that attempt - because the top of that is a potential escape route if I run out of nerve on Sunset Slab...
;-O
Having read the whole thread up to this point, and looking for my first proper VS lead, and having led a HS before I'd lead a Severe...
...I'm a bit confused!
I've seconded Green Gut at Froggat (HS 4a), but wouldn't particularly want to go back and lead it, having been put off Hard Severes by then trying to lead Janker's Crack (HS 4b) having led nothing harder than a VDiff at that point)
But I seconded Eartha (HS 4a) at Millstone a few weeks ago, and regret bitterly not leading it first - but I will go back and lead that, and probably do Great Slab (HS 4b) on the same visit as an onsight...
If you really want to lead your nemesis HS, then I suggest you find someone else who will easily lead it, and not stitch it - and then second it. Then go back to the start and lead it right away.
I'm in a position where I'm looking for a first VS lead, having seconded 5 of them. I liked the 2 VS's at Curbar (Wall Climb & Grey Face - both VS 5a), liked Carmen at Aldery Cliff (VS 4c) and will go back and lead that next time, but hated Derek's Dilemma at Wildcat (VS 4c) and the VS at the right hand end of Brown Slab at Shepherd's Crag (don't have the guidebook, but VS 4c I think).
But I'm blowed if I'll lead either Green Gut, or Janker's Crack before I go for a VS lead, in fact I'm far more likely to have a go at Sunset Slab (HVS 4b) than Janker's Crack next time I'm at Froggatt - although Sunset Crack (HS 4c) is likely to be a test piece before that attempt - because the top of that is a potential escape route if I run out of nerve on Sunset Slab...
;-O
In reply to Dominion:
Wall Climb at Curbar is hard for VS so well done. Green Gut on the other hand is soft for HS, easie than sunset crack for example. The to-p of sunset crack is easy but you cant back off sunset slab on to it - if you back off before the crux itd be easier to reverse to the ground, and if you bakc off at the crux youll want to shout for a topr-rope (dot worry theres a huige hold to stand on while you clip in!)
My first VS was Inverted V which I think would be a good choice. If youre at Froggatt, Trapeze direct is easy VS and Hawks nest crack if you can jam a bit, is very good at the grade, but not soft-touch. Recommended.
Wall Climb at Curbar is hard for VS so well done. Green Gut on the other hand is soft for HS, easie than sunset crack for example. The to-p of sunset crack is easy but you cant back off sunset slab on to it - if you back off before the crux itd be easier to reverse to the ground, and if you bakc off at the crux youll want to shout for a topr-rope (dot worry theres a huige hold to stand on while you clip in!)
My first VS was Inverted V which I think would be a good choice. If youre at Froggatt, Trapeze direct is easy VS and Hawks nest crack if you can jam a bit, is very good at the grade, but not soft-touch. Recommended.
In reply to Si dH:
I've seconded Trapeze Direct, last year on my first visit to Froggatt, and would not have any problems leading it. Led Trapeze (VDiff) as probably one of my first ten leads, and to be honest Trapeze Direct is a VDiff with one hard, well protected, move in it (for someone who was just starting to onsight F6a/F6a+ routes indoors at that time*)
* who says climbing indoors doesn't prepare you for proper leads on real rock?
I refer you to the comments on http://www.rockfax.com/databases/results_route.html?id=1394
eg Don't let a VS virgin near this one
> If youre at Froggatt, Trapeze direct is easy VS
I've seconded Trapeze Direct, last year on my first visit to Froggatt, and would not have any problems leading it. Led Trapeze (VDiff) as probably one of my first ten leads, and to be honest Trapeze Direct is a VDiff with one hard, well protected, move in it (for someone who was just starting to onsight F6a/F6a+ routes indoors at that time*)
* who says climbing indoors doesn't prepare you for proper leads on real rock?
> and Hawks nest crack if you can jam a bit, is very good at the grade, but not soft-touch. Recommended.
I refer you to the comments on http://www.rockfax.com/databases/results_route.html?id=1394
eg Don't let a VS virgin near this one
In reply to Dominion:
Green Guts a Severe - and is just that..
The tops a bit scary - but severe none the less - no need for grade creep on that route i reck - rockfax grades again to confuse...
Si
Green Guts a Severe - and is just that..
The tops a bit scary - but severe none the less - no need for grade creep on that route i reck - rockfax grades again to confuse...
Si
In reply to Simon:
Other than Rockfax, the only Froggatt guide I have is the 1978 definitive guide, and it's HS in that one.
I agree it's no more than severe though.
A good first VS at Froggatt might be Terrace Crack, since that's more like HS (and is also VS in the 78 guide so not more Rockfax upgrading!) But if you want a real VS rather than an overgraded HS I don't think the suggestion of Hawks Nest is too far wrong. Not that I've led it mind but it's obviously well protected, which is the main thing.
> rockfax grades again to confuse
Other than Rockfax, the only Froggatt guide I have is the 1978 definitive guide, and it's HS in that one.
I agree it's no more than severe though.
A good first VS at Froggatt might be Terrace Crack, since that's more like HS (and is also VS in the 78 guide so not more Rockfax upgrading!) But if you want a real VS rather than an overgraded HS I don't think the suggestion of Hawks Nest is too far wrong. Not that I've led it mind but it's obviously well protected, which is the main thing.
In reply to Simon Caldwell:
Good call, Terrace Crack ,although it is a bit steep, easy for the grade.
Seriously, Hawks Nest is a great well-protected route and youll feel like youve done a proper VS. Just stick to the crack at the start and youll be fine. If you can jam a bit.
Good call, Terrace Crack ,although it is a bit steep, easy for the grade.
Seriously, Hawks Nest is a great well-protected route and youll feel like youve done a proper VS. Just stick to the crack at the start and youll be fine. If you can jam a bit.
In reply to stonewall:
Of course Cleft Wall Route 1 was VD until recently.
Stonnis Crack is tough but try the Severe girdle just left if you want real fun and games at the grade. Green Gut is a straightforward bombproof Severe albeit perhaps more technical than average for the grade.
Of course Cleft Wall Route 1 was VD until recently.
Stonnis Crack is tough but try the Severe girdle just left if you want real fun and games at the grade. Green Gut is a straightforward bombproof Severe albeit perhaps more technical than average for the grade.
In reply to Offwidth:
Greengut - I can see why you think it's a severe but try telling that to S/HS leaders. It's HS and there's no doubt of that. Maybe HS 4a though.
Whilst I'm at it,
Mutiny crack is clearly HS 4c and yes I can jam.
Greengut - I can see why you think it's a severe but try telling that to S/HS leaders. It's HS and there's no doubt of that. Maybe HS 4a though.
Whilst I'm at it,
Mutiny crack is clearly HS 4c and yes I can jam.
In reply to CurlyStevo:
In what way is it HS? It's extremely well protected and you can rest in several places. I led it when I'd done virtually nothing above HS and thought it easy Severe.
> It's HS and there's no doubt of that
In what way is it HS? It's extremely well protected and you can rest in several places. I led it when I'd done virtually nothing above HS and thought it easy Severe.
In reply to Simon Caldwell:
I led it when HS was fairly near my limit. I think the people who think this is easier are generally climbing a few grades harder.
It's sustained and awkward. The 4a moves are high in the grade, there are rests but they are not the sort of rests a server leader is likely to be able to use.
If you stand under the route and watch S/HS leaders climb it there are normally more than a few grunts and signs of relief when reaching the top.
I think it is HS 4a in the same way that many grit cracks are VS 4b.
I led it when HS was fairly near my limit. I think the people who think this is easier are generally climbing a few grades harder.
It's sustained and awkward. The 4a moves are high in the grade, there are rests but they are not the sort of rests a server leader is likely to be able to use.
If you stand under the route and watch S/HS leaders climb it there are normally more than a few grunts and signs of relief when reaching the top.
I think it is HS 4a in the same way that many grit cracks are VS 4b.
In reply to CurlyStevo:
And I think it's S 4a in the same way that most grit VS 4bs are really HS 4bs!
> I think it is HS 4a in the same way that many grit cracks are VS 4b
And I think it's S 4a in the same way that most grit VS 4bs are really HS 4bs!
In reply to CurlyStevo:
More accurately, people who think they are S/HS leaders. Just to mentally upgrade routes you find tough rather misses the point.
> Greengut - I can see why you think it's a severe but try telling that to S/HS leaders.
More accurately, people who think they are S/HS leaders. Just to mentally upgrade routes you find tough rather misses the point.
In reply to CurlyStevo:
Sorry to disagree but I think it has nothing to do with ability; any climb with such good bridging rests and bomber pro would need to have a few 4b moves to push it to HS just by grade system logic. Like any climb it is posible to climb it badly and make it a lot harder but you have to grade for the technically easiest sequence and average adjectival experience. Incidently I'd love to hear your views on the Drainpipe @Burb South (a real Severe corner sandbag!)
PS I've used it as a first severe many times when helping people push lead grades.
Sorry to disagree but I think it has nothing to do with ability; any climb with such good bridging rests and bomber pro would need to have a few 4b moves to push it to HS just by grade system logic. Like any climb it is posible to climb it badly and make it a lot harder but you have to grade for the technically easiest sequence and average adjectival experience. Incidently I'd love to hear your views on the Drainpipe @Burb South (a real Severe corner sandbag!)
PS I've used it as a first severe many times when helping people push lead grades.
In reply to CurlyStevo:
If you think Green Gut is HS 4a, then pop along to Millstone and have a go at Hells Bells.
If you think Green Gut is HS 4a, then pop along to Millstone and have a go at Hells Bells.
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