UKC

I am lying on my hospital bed contemplating my life and drinking. How did it progress from 3 or 4 pints on a Saturday night to upto two bottles of vodka a day?

With different crowds the level of drinking went up and down, then a group of us found that drinking at the crag could turn the whole day into a party. A few judicious cans would be carried up and cracked open at lunchtime. We also found that often we could easily lead or solo routes that had been stopping us in the morning.

http://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/page.php?id=201

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: respect to Al Evans.

In reply to Barber Baz:
Very brave article, hope things go well.

Ade

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

Lost for words

but thanks for Jean Jeanie Al

In reply to NIGBEE: Did Al write Jean Jeanie? Wow, always thought it was a Bowie song.

In reply to Al: Griping read..oops, sorry, that's your usual stuff...meant gripping read

Respect Al, it's your courage that inspires us aspiring climbers.

In reply to Chris Tan: If only it was YOUR courage that inspired you to aspire to higher/harder climbs

Fantastic article Al.

Thanks.x

In reply

Glad that had a happy ending Al, you are lucky to have such good and stubborn friends

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
Great article Al, very moving

In reply to Chris the Tall:

Errr Me too. Best of luck Al.

A.-

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: Great article Al. I've known a few people bounce back from similar, so hang in there...

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

Al, darling, I knew something was wrong, but did not realise how bad it was. Big hug.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: I have just got back from Asda having had the usual conversation with myself, that I must have a problem if I cant go in there and buy a bottle of scotch. A normal bottle is £12.50 but a litre bottle only £12.80!

Very sad about George Best but lets take the piss out of Gazza.

I really dont know why its so hard to stop, I gave up amphetamines in my 20's and fags in my 30's but not drink. Hope anyone out there afflicted can beat it.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

Sobering story (pun intended)! I salute your braveness Al and your compassion Mick. Well done both of you. The article well worth reading not least because any one of us could easily end up there.

Thanks. Pete

In reply to Pete W:

Shit I've been fluffed by Pete W. The shame. I think I need a stiff drink. Where's my Organic Lao Tzu Green Tea.....frookit....I'll go for some Yerba Mate.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

Well done MIck for getting it on the page so quickly, bit of a scoop I think.

I read the original thread and was quite shocked, in a positive way, by the honesty of it. It does rather lead one to wonder what stories there, on and off the rocks, in all those years. Any chance of some more Al?

In reply to Horse:


Al said Climb magazine rejected it which beggars belief. It was Sonja Drummond who drew my attention to it. Hopefully more from Al soon as he is going to submit more.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

Their loss, sign him up now; the snippets on things like the Ron thread are really good. I think part of it is that it is an era in which many of us came to climbing, oh and Al has a good style.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: There Mick, for the grace of God go I (and a few more users of this site I would think). Was on two bottles of scotch a day myself before I met my missis 13 years ago.Very poignant writing by Al Evans...good luck mate.
Pete

In reply to sofajam9: Glad you've stopped, Al. Really good article.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: And as far I can see - perfectly edited Mick! Nice one - glad you listen to our moans.

Hope all is going well Al, as it seems to be a year on from the events described.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

AL .......... I'm sure you'll read this ......... And in all honesty it's quite heart warming for me to know that you'll be about a bit longer to 'educate' me on my spelling and gramma or is it grammer or grammor ....... oh sod it you know what I mean

Be strong on the long road ahead

W

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

A sobering article. Be well.

Marko

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: wow, tht article shows the terrible power that alchol can have on anybody, i would never have thought Al would be an alcholic (dont know him at all but still)

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

No it doesn't - have you read Climb recently? This is article is very good - it doesnt belong among Climb rubbish!

-------------

More importantly - thanks for your honesty and bravery Al. I am sure that it will help many, if not at least make people aware. Good luck going forward.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

Whoah. Thanks Al for writing that, and I'm really glad you made it. My dad didn't (and on a lot less than two bottles a day). I don't imagine the fight is ever over so best of luck with it.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

Respect Al.. takes guts .. I'll buy you dinner in June in Costa Blanca if you'll let me!

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

Just repeating what other people have said, but well done on your honesty in writing this and your bravery in sharing it.

Shame on Climb for rejecting it, probably pertinent to more regular climbers than the sort of stuff they do chose to publish, but maybe a bit less sponsor-friendly. In the same breath, well done to UKC for picking up on your earlier thread.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

Al: respect, good luck with it.

I played a very talented alcoholic at chess the other day and won easily. It depressed me. On the other hand, my ex-bridge partner was one while he lived with me, and he's gone clean and just won a major national event. Not that either of those are very relevant, but I thought you'd like to know.

jcm

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: Good to see this as a proper article now. Having an alcoholic grandfather, an alcoholic father and a mother who abuses alcohol amongst other things and all the crap that goes with it, it touched a chord somewhere.

Look forward to seeing more of Al's writing. He comes across as a funny guy and respect for getting clean. Hope all goes well.

In reply to lasonj:

Agreed, good it see it as an article rather than just in the chatroom. Probably one of the best articles I've ever read on the interweb.
All the best Al.

In reply to Ridge: The main support is Jack Street,(first ascent of Ajudicator Wall) one of the guys I started drinking with and the first to stop, Jude and B are important too, as was Anni and Helen on the journey to getting there, its sometimes hard still, but Freddy keeps me whole, and the other Anni of course Lifes good, better, guys.

In reply to Al Evans: You're all very flattering by the way , I'll keep in touch with Mick.

In reply to Al Evans: Good luck, stick with it Al. Most climbers trained in the pub in those days.

I saw Jack Street solo his route at Stoney, Solotaire!

Stu

In reply to Al Evans: Thanks Al, a good and worthwhile read.

In reply to Al Evans:

Nice article Al. Hope all is ok.

As a related aside, I wonder if climbers are typically addictive personalities? I read something about this type of thing recently and there are hedonistic addicts - who easily get hooked on adrenaline buzzes and alcohol/drugs etc. Just a thought.

Anyway, refreshingly honest account Al. Thanks.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

I used to climb with a mate who had told me that a lot of routes in the 60's/70's could be attributed to drink, mogadon and speed. Though not all at once.

Nice to see someone brave enough to speak of the 'dark side' of this sport.

For anyone interested I recently got told by someone from Alcoholics Anonymous that the real test of an alcoholic is "Can you go a whole year without it?" I think my record is 5 days. Worrying, to say the least.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: nice one for the article Al. Hope things pan out OK. Having recently lost someone (also a journalist with a TV background) to the bottle I am so glad someone has managed to pull themselves back from the brink... It's a truly shitty way to go that no-one diserves.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

There is alot to be said for having a life, as opposed to being life and soul of the party.

In reply to Al Evans:

Fine thought-provoking stuff Al - thanks

In reply to Jenn:

Not to defend the standard of journalism in Climb, but this article was too personal for a magazine publication; was not particularly about climbing - more alcoholism; and named names which wouldn't mean anything to readers unfamiliar with Al from UKC.

It's always brave to share intimate troubles publicly, but personal bravery is no requirement of a good article. Not that the article is bad you understand, just that it's more suited for the media/forum where it's presented. It would have lost a lot if it had been over-edited down to content that suited a magazine.

It's a well-written, personal interest, internet article. Thanks Al and Mick.

In reply to The Crow:

Oh, and seperately from discussing the article's content...

All the best Al (if you still need well wishes) and well done for kicking an addiction (if you don't).

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

Jeez Al, You made me bloody cry reading that. And I'm at work.

Fantastic to hear you are off the bottle. I REALLY hoped that was the case when you got in touch again.

JUST KEEP IT UP. Ok?

See you in October for a really good go at Segaria.

Adrian Bates
Costa Blanca Climbing
http://www.costablancaclimbing.com

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: Thanks Mick and Al, Very uplifting.

In reply to Al Evans:
The best article yet, very well written, with some interesting anecdotes and a strong message. Did you really write it from your hospital bed?
Very impressed.

In reply to The Crow:

I'm not sure about that. I've read some very personal stuff in the mags in the UK and the USA. Climbing and R+I magazine usually have something like that in virtually every issue.

In reply to Al Evans: thank's for that Al- a timely reminder for me
are you teetotal now then?

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

I've read some similarly personal stuff too, but (only) in my opinion these articles are generally poor and the worst the magazines offer.

After all given the limited bandwidth of printed media (and then further subtract the advertising space) a 'Climbing Magazine' shouldn't have the resource to support much apart from it's core subject. Sort of UKC with only the forums/topics directly concerned with climbing, and quality articles on those subjects (oh if only).

So while I still dream of a content-packed magazine I think articles like this are best where you've published them and I appreciate them there. I personally wouldn't have published it if I edited 'Climb' either (unless I was short on material).

In reply to The Crow:

Perhaps you are right Crow. I'm sure the majority people would much rather read about how to make a clip stick, view the beta on a V9, or read the heavily edited and selected self-praising letters pages. We'll have none of the personal stuff directly related to climbing that most can relate to.

Is there a prize for writing an article that gets on the front page? Like a bottle of champagne or whisky

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:


Wow Al, that's one of the most inspiring and moving articles I've read in a long time. Get well soon!

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

Irony? America hasn't smiled that out of you then?

I like 'personal stuff directly related to climbing' but this article is more 'personal stuff tenuously related to climbing' and perfectly suited to the broader nature of this site with it's DTP and TCR content.

I know you like to dig at the magazines, and I'd agree that they are awful in so many ways, but they are a very different media to the web. Diversify too much and costs go up and you may as well buy a paper...

Diversify online and it's only an extra web page with minimal cost and people don't resent the non-core content as much. Imagine the furore from subscribers if a magazine devoted over 50% of it's pages (cf. bandwidth) to chatty topics like the forums here...

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: A moving and interesting piece Al and a warning to all of us who like a drink - nobody ever thinks it can happen to them. It must have taken a lot of courage to post that. Good luck with your struggle mate

cheers Paul

In reply to The Crow: I don't know who you are, but if you can dismiss Al's article by saying that it belongs 'down the pub' then I don't want to know you.

In reply to The Crow:

You are right Crow. But I'm not sure about the 'furore'. As I said earlier the American mags are running more intimate articles and they appear to be well recieved. It is difficult for the mags these days and they approach it in different ways. I certainly like Climb mags large format (R+I just followed that lead in their bouldering issue) but I think there is too much reliance on climbing celebs and in-house writers and photographers. Diversity seems lacking, as does grassroots stuff (like Al's piece) and they can end up looking like a gear catalogue.

Yes I am a critic of the mags, certainly. They need a kick up the backside.

Mick

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

BTW, I haven't seen Climber around for about 6-8 wks (here in Belper, right on the edge of the Peak, after all)

Have others here seen recent issues??

In reply to John2:

Well I'm called Paul

... and I liked Al's article (even excluding any empathy and respect I have for the man, who seems to have beaten a destructive addiction).

I was only replying to a comment that the article may have been rejected by a climbing magazine. Please read up the thread by clicking on the 'reply to' buttons.

PS. We discuss euthanasia, abortion, rape, politics, terrorism and God knows what else 'Down the Pub' what exactly makes you think I'm dismissing anything?

In reply to John2:

Have you actually read his posts? I can't see where he made the claim you allege. Perhaps you could point it out to me?

In reply to Horse: He said , "this article is more 'personal stuff tenuously related to climbing' and perfectly suited to the broader nature of this site with it's DTP and TCR content".

In reply to John2:

Which is a hell of a long way removed from and I quote you:

"..by saying that it belongs 'down the pub'..."

As you seem to have to failed to grasp the point being made; is that it is perhaps more appropriate to a web site such as this with a broader range of content than a climbing specific magazine. This in the context of part of the earlier discussion as to why a climbing magazine didn't take the article. What exactly is the problem with that?

In reply to Horse:
1) In this context, I think it insensitive to suggest that the article belongs 'down the pub'.

2) I really don't see why a magazine such as Climb should not be willing to broaden the spectrum of articles that it publishes by giving a well known climber such as Al an airing. It was a brave and positive step for Al to write the piece.

In reply to Horse:

Hold on Horse, UKClimbing is climber specific, it attempts to cater to the 'whole' climber.

Anyway, I'd argue that Al's article is very specific to climbing, I mean for goodness sake read it, it's all about climbing and climbers.

M

In reply to John2:
That was not the suggestion.


That is one view, Paul has a different one or at least sees why the Comics perhaps see it another way.

In reply to Horse: Anyway, I read his post less than a minute after emailing Al, whom I know personally, on this subject. Maybe I took Crow's comment the wrong way, but let's not get in an argument on this thread.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: hell, its got a lot more to do with climbing than half of Perrin's outpourings in the climbing press over the last 30 years - and I say that as a JP fan. More of the same as far as I'm concerned - writing about sport can get very clinical and repetitive without some human character and historical anecdote

P

Oh lighten up people. You're turning what was a nice thread celebrating Al's open-ness and hopeful recovery into something a bit unpleasant.

In reply to Paul Atkinson:

Absolutely!!!!

There's got to be soul somewhere rather than just machine.

In reply to JonC: Thanks Jon, yep lighten up guys, I'm glad Mick published it, I'm sad 'Climb' didnt (cos I would have got payed then but it doesn't matter, if anybody gets anything out of it, thats all that counts in the end.
Al

In reply to John2: Good to hear from you John.

In reply to Al Evans:

Interesting and surprising article. I got into climbing partly to escape a world of pubs and clubs. I think the only time I’ve seen anyone drinking when roped climbing was when a a guy I was seconding put a can in his chalkbag, downed it in one on a ledge, then promptly fell off and nearly died. I’ve drunk when bouldering a few times and can see the pleasure in that. Better than drinking sitting down in a smoky pub.
But it sounds as if the media lifestyle was more to blame. A school friend became a cameraman and I joked he probably now went around with a bag of coke in his pocket – he promptly pulled one out. Two bottles a day is scary stuff. I knew a teacher on two bottles – he had a stroke in his early thirties and no longer speaks, just dribbles.

In reply to people:

Often the reason mags won't take certain articles is that there's nowhere to publish them. E.g. One US mag used to run personal viewpointy pieces at the back (can't remember the name of the section!), but take the current format of Climb, you'd be hard pressed to find a suitable place for it. Just the way it is.

However (plug) help is at hand. There is one mag that does run lots of tangental, personal pieces, and has run many by various people on this forum - good old Summit. So you know what to do - email alex@thebmc.co.uk with your masterpieces. No pay, but everlasting glory.

In reply to Al Evans:

One hell of an article Al. We have been worried for you for so long now that it is good to see you getting back on track.

In reply to alex:

Alex....is just the way he is!

In reply to Al Evans:

I’ve been lurking here under one guise or another for years, and just thought I drop you a note to thank you for a really honest article – very brave to let everyone know.

I was raised by an alcoholic single parent mother, and saw her go through countless detox and forced rehabs – only to see her steadly decline through alcohol abuse – dieing age 50, which is just too young! I can’t explain how much it hurt me to see this deterioration over the years, always knowing the eventual outcome, and being powerless to do anything about it. It still hurts now just writing this and reading your article.

Despite all the detox and her complete inability to function for weeks on end sometimes – I never once heard her admit she had a problem. This is why I find your article very brave and very positive.

Good luck with the rest of the journey, and stay strong.

D

In reply to Al Evans:
You got us all worried, but glad it's still looking good . It was great to see you looking so healthy in February, back to your old self and climbing well again. Hopefully see you in October .

In reply to Al Evans:

1) Thank you. Very valuable words. Salient warnings.
2) You refer to someone as an ex-alcoholic. I thought the most important thing to remember about alcoholism was that once an alcoholic, always an alcoholic. Booze becomes permanently off-limits.
3) Interestingly, after describing what most would consider to be an alcoholic lifestyle running from '74 to '03, only by '03 do you seem to realise you were becoming an alcoholic!

Very sad but life-afirming at the same time.

Good luck.

In reply to Helen ~Taylor: Thanks Helen, Freddy helps
Thanks Dom and everbody else too,
Al

Self -test. Are you an alcoholic?


http://www.aa-uk.org.uk/publications/areyou.htm

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
nearly every one is according to the AA, which is true enough.

In reply to Dr.Strangeglove:
According to World Health Organisation figures, approximately 1:13 are affected directly or indirectly by either addiction or alcoholism.
As the bulk of addicts/alcoholics die without any form of recovery, either from the substance itself or related medical and/or psychiatric disorders and the effect that has on relatives who get to watch the whole unpleasant process, I am absolutely bloody delighted that Al has had the balls to bring this to light through UKC and that he has started his own path of recovery. Many thanks to both!

In reply to Bogsy:
Dear Al,
Best of luck with your battle..a very brave and well-written article.
As you know I work in TV, as you did, and it's a crap environment for keeping drinking under control. I gave up going near a pub at lunch-time some years ago, as I can never stick to soft drinks for long, and I try to head for climbing or the gym straight after work except in exceptional circumstances e.g the programme falling apart on air...probably makes me seem a bit anti-social, but I know how easily I could be tempted.
Fortunately booze has a dire effect on my climbing, so I have a good incentive not too let things go too far.
Hope to see you at Portland again before too long.
Stick with it, John

In reply to Al Evans:


Good article Al & well done in keeping those demons at bay.

The bag of sports mixtures I brought to you in the hallamshire were the last that I saw that had the black flavour - its now blackberry or summit rubbish!

a bags waiting on the table for you if you email me your addy in spain - I'll send them!

Take care mate & respect again on the article - we are thinking of you boss...


si

In reply to Simon: Keep em for me Si, I'll see you when I'm back in early July, then off to OMOH filming.
Perhaps we can catch a premiership match together

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

Sad to hear your story Al. I hope you make it to a happy ending.

I'll be prayering for you.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

Al

the very best of luck with the road ahead.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

Al, many years ago, about 1981/2 I staggered round the Peoples Marathon in Birmingham, I believe that I 'ran' that last few miles with you, could that be correct.
John Gresty

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: Im afraid the connection with alcoholism and climbing is as contrived as a new route on stanage edge, its no wonder climb magazine rejected it. UKC is no place for this sort of expose. What on earth was Al thinking? shame on you mick..

In reply to Erik B:

ahh ...go boil yer head....

In reply to Erik B:


Read the posts; it seems that few agree with you.


[In the immortal words of Pete W]
I salute your braveness Al and your compassion Mick. Well done both of you. The article well worth reading not least because any one of us could easily end up there.

Mick

In reply to Mick Ward: i have voiced my opinion. I suggest you start watching tricia on daytime tv if you like reading about other peoples hardships in life.

In reply to Erik B:

You're entitled to your opinion, but most people seem to disagree with you.

I personally found the article fascinating.

In reply to AliceW: UKC is becoming more and more like the Sun or news of the world. or even worse the daytime tv 'This Morning' program. Why did you find the article fascinating? is it because of some sort of voyeuristic thrill of looking into someones deeply personal 'baggage'? Al has obviously been through a lot of shit, but opening his inner most thoughts and feelings to people he doesnt know on a climbing website and usng the ridiculous and contrived connection with climbing seems very strange to me. Al should not have been encouraged to do this in my opinion, he should have been encouraged to keep his essays for his memoirs. just my opinion though..

In reply to AliceW:


Good for you Alice.
Are you an alcoholic perchance? The survey above seems to suggest that 97% of the UK population (including me) are (never mind the climbing population).

I tend more towards the opinion that alcoholism is a choice and not an illness. A positive choice that you make at a vulnerable stage in your life, whether you are aware of it or not. It can go either way of course, a person can be susceptible to the draw of booze, and others can resist it.

I am lucky enough to be able to resist it. I am also lucky enough to be able to go out, drink 8 pints and get trashed then go home and sleep it off, having no more booze for a fortnight.

Certain individuals seem to be unable to distinguish between enjoyment and obsession, which is where illness crosses over, and Al Evans takes over..................

In reply to Erik B:

I think the article was not just fascinating but critically important. Important enough for over 4000 views. What makes it important for me is that I, like so many others who have read it no doubt can see how easily their own lives could go the same way.

Important because by penning it Al could well save the life of some dumb asshole like me!

Pete

In reply to Erik B:

1. The thread title made the subject of the thread explicit, so why bother opening it if you didn't want to read it?

2. How is an essay published as a memoir any more or less public than one published on an internet forum or in a magazine? If you publish your memoirs you're sharing your thoughts and feelings with strangers aren't you?

And anyway, Al probably knows half the people who post on here.

In reply to Al Evans: hey Al, take care, and remember we want a book of all the Ron stories

amazing story...I wish I could write something so honest, maybe one day when I stop lying to myself

take it easy

Ian

In reply to Rosie A: right, so UKC is now a forum for virtual buddies who get patted on the back by each other for publishing stories about their lifes traumas? I am posting on this thread as Im stating that Mick shouldnt be publishing this stuff on UKC in my opinion. Any thoughts as to why climb magazine didnt publish it?

In reply to Pete W:

Point of order Pete. This thread has had over 4000 views, the article itself far more than that as not everyone accesses the articles from the forums. In fact this article was also linked (direct to the article) on several climbing websites in the USA.

Al Evan's is an author with an international reputation, not just national, as is UKClimbing.com.

In fact we have had people register at UKClimbing.com on the strength of this article alone...........as well as those wanting to view over 31,000 climbing photos:

http://www.ukclimbing.com/photos/

The logbooks:

http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/

The news:

http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/

An increasing selection of articles:

http://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/

The comprehensive database:

http://www.ukclimbing.com/databases/

And of course lots of fluffy threads from someone called Pete W

http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/profile.php?id=7286

And one of the liveliest climbing forums in the world covering all aspects of our brilliant pastimes (including human interest stories).

http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/

Cheers,

Mick

In reply to Erik B: Nope.

Read what I said, and answer my points if you want a discussion.

In reply to Erik B:

you trying to reason that UKC shouldnt have put it here because Climb didnt want to?

In reply to Pete W: jesus christ Pete, if your an alcoholic then you have serious issues which will not be helped by reading an article by someone on UKC. as al himself has said it took something as extreme as trying to top himself to realise how serious his predicament was. What will Mick publish next I wonder?

In reply to mik: no ya dafty, Im suggesting that they didnt publish it as it has got feck all to do with climbing

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: so what if Al was an unknown random climber then? would you have published it? is it only worth publishing because he is a climbing 'celebrity'?

In reply to Ian Hill:

Jesus christ, it's a horrible, horrible thread, some random climber was extremely ill, shat his life away, came to the brink, retreated a little bitty, and will now be on the edge for the rest of his sorry life. How many others died? How many others are still living that life? Lying to their kids and wives?
Denying they are alkies?
Contributing to threads slagging off "chavs" as if they are nothing less?
Talking misguided politics?
Reminiscing?
Are these people fit to look after themselves?
Are these people even fit to look after cats???

In reply to Erik B:

thought it was cleared up weeks ago that this site was for climbers not just for climbing subjects.

But if this shouldnt be here because its not got anything to do with climbing why dont you add the chatroom and the down the pub to your list of things they shouldnt have here.

In reply to Erik B:

write am article about your drunken nights out in Glasgow and find out

In reply to mik: as I said before, what will Mick publish next?

In reply to Erik B:

You are sad. Maybe you are jealous of the attention Al is getting? Put a bit of yourself on the forum and we will all love you.

In reply to mik: dont presume you know me because i post on here.

In reply to francoisecall: I apologise if I am not fluffy enough for your liking.

In reply to Erik B:

was just a silly assumption based on Glasgow having a 60 percent higher chance of dying from Alcohol related ilnesses than rest of UK.

I think you are on to somthing in your reference to tricia etc, but i cant see why they shouldnt publish it.

Also it seems that when someone do somthing stupid (which drinking lots of alcohol is) and turn it around and acomplish somthing then it becomes fantastic, when someone just cope with everyday life and do the same then its ordinary and no one notice................

In reply to mik:


Your grammar is shite, but your post is excellent, one of the best I've ever read.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

I have some sympathy with Erik's view, however well written and thought provoking the article may be.

I wondered particularly about the use of numerous people's names in relation to the topic - I'm not sure I'd like it.

In reply to Erik B: As a point of pedantry, the worst it can be accused of is being in the wrong forum.

Otherwise, it's catharsis, and I have enough respect and humanity to grant anyone that wish, without voicing my opinion and coming across like a gobshite.

In reply to Erik B:

Nope. That didn't factor into my decision at all. In fact Al can be a a royal pain the the ass as far as moderating this site.

It was the content, all about his story. It needed a place to be heard. The drinking culture is well-known in the UK. Al's story showed the dark side of what can happen. Quite a contrast to the 'what you drinking tonight' threads in the forums and all the machoism about how much you can drink that are frequently read in the forums.

Plus, the climbing content of his story, if you read it, is very strong indeed, not indirectly or as a sidwline but an important part of the article.

It was very similar to an article I read in Climbing magazine several years ago by a woman climber, the topic: Anorexia, Bulimia, Expectations and Climbing and another near death experience.

I apologise if you can put your life in neat little boxes seperate from each other, I can't, I never could do, there's always overlap and I think most people are similar.

Mick

In reply to Erik B:

Working on a few FAQ's on cam maintanance, abseiling, and ticks. Some trip report stuff, oh and a great sport climbing piece.

This link will give you a good overview of what has been published in the last year, quite diverse.

http://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/

Mick

In reply to Erik B:

I can relate to that Erik.

M

In reply to ultra montane:

No I am not an alcoholic - in fact I very rarely drink alcohol at all, I don't particularly enjoy it.

I just found the story interesting, and am glad I had the chance to read it, whether on this website or elsewhere.

And to those who think this website is exclusively for writing about climbing, they clearly haven't read much of it recently - I don't know why you are singling out this particular topic for criticism.

In reply to AliceW:

Dear Alice

Maybe it should have been left here http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=182032&v=1#2625299

Norrie

In reply to Erik B:

Let's put it another way Erik.

You, Erik, are the editor of Climb It magazine published by LoadsaMoney Publishing owned by Mr. LotsaPounds. Mr. LotsaPounds, not a climber, has employed you to edit the magazine, choose articles etc so you get the most climbers you can paying £3 to buy Climb It. The more climbers you get buying Climb It the more you can charge for advertising. Advertising is the bread and butter of magazine publishing (along with the cover price). Advertisers like big circulation it means their 'message' is getting to more climbers and hopefully that message will persuade more climbers to buy their climbing widgit. The bigger circulation a mag has the more likely they are to advertise and spend the big spondulis. That makes Mr. LotsaPounds and LoadsaMoney Publishing very happy.....and you get to keep your job and get paid.

Now climbing is a broad church with lots of sub-cultures within that church and you have to please everyone. You've got to attract them all to your magazine, Make it number 1 in the climbing community. You've got the highly-focussed boulderers, ice gnarlies, stick-thin sport climbers, bearded trad mums, all rounders, climbing wall jocks, dry-foolers, Chris Bonnington wannabe hill-walkers, Gothic Alpinists, climbing competition mums and dads, John Muir romantics, emotion-driven deep-water soloists, ambitious greater range very big mountain expeditioners....some climb once a year, others 5 times a week, some are happy on a Sunday doing a multi-pitch Vdiff in the rain in the Lakes, others spending five days at the back of some dark cave projecting the latest bouldering eliminate, some want to climb 8a (the grade not the poster on here). In short a wide and diverse climbing community. If you have an article on something that interests one demographic they are happy, if not they cry....wadda load of rubbish, why did you publish that, it has no value, I'm not interested.

You yourself go tradding and ice climbing, you enjoy the mountains. You will still publish articles on bouldering and everything else that may have an interest to your readers but may not interest you personally.

Now, what about Al's article? Would you publish it? Look at some of the replies on this thread.

Remember your job is at stake, you have to keep Mr. LotsaPounds happy. If you don't you can kiss goodbye to that £60,000 a year and that month vacation in Yosemire that you planned for next September.

Do you think this kind of article interests people?

Mick

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

hows the CB bouldering going Mick? - any more info needed - let me know ..

..and hats off to Al and the rest of the writers - a fresh and new way of getting climbing prose to the masess - although not everyone can like everything - fair enough....

cheers

si

In reply to Norrie Muir:

Fair point!

But then I would probably have missed it....

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

Dear Mick

We get the hint, UKC is desperate for articles. May I suggest you publish an article on the joys of top roping as you seemed to have missed out that section of UKC's 'broad church'.

Norrie

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:


So you make a living out of all this shite Mick? I think not...

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com

Sorry. There's no way the editor of a climbing mag would get 60K. 25 max. Next.

In reply to Al Evans: Al, your story touched a nerve, we all enjoy a drink but what is that 'point of no return'? Another half at closing time?, a 'one for the road?' a 'just finish this then I'll join you?' , You've really made me think Al. I must salute you on the honesty and frankness in your submission.
it's rare and refreshing to find that sort of 'bare your soulness' It brings it back that we're all human after all, and there but for the grace of whatever God you believe in, I may walk the same path. You have my utmost admiration Al, In all honesty, I wish you very well and hope you find light at the end of your particular tunnel, and if I have your strength of character the next time the Black Dog comes to call on me then I'll be a better person for it. Good on 'ya Mate

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: I sort of agree with Erik here.

For me this article is on the boundary of suitable / not suitable.

It is a bit reality TV ish, but then in a way it's climbing relevant.

Had it just been about alcoholism then I don't think it's for here IMO. UKC can get a bit "Womens weekly", sorry but it does. It was an interesting read, and a good warning, for me explaining the link between climbing and drinking to warrant publication - just.

I don't really think too many hard luck stories are appropriate unless there is climbing relevance. I don't want to read "The day my cat died" or "My son married his step mother", at times UKC does get a too reality TV ish and people seem to love a good dust up.

I can see why the present article was published, and why others may say it was unsuitable. I think UKC shouldn't lose sight of the fact it's first and foremost a climbing forum but maintains such high appeal due to it's other facets.

To just shout people down as they disagree and offer another point of view does come across as play ground behaviour, but Mick responded well to the criticism.

Sorry Al if this isn't the place, I do think it's an interesting tragic read, hope you sort yourself out. Good luck.

In reply to Anonymous:


12 issues a year, £25-30,000 in advertising in each issue, £300,000 - $360,000 in advertising a year plus similar for the cover price......half a millon a year.....they'd better get 60K or they are being seriously ripped. Maybe you are thinking of a deputy editor.

Next.

In reply to Norrie Muir:

Sorry wrong interpretation Norrie. There really is no shortage but we would like more from relectant gnarly Scottish mountaineers who have walked the walk and know how to talk the talk.

Know anyone?

Mick

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: What, someone whom not infrequently posts about large volumes of Stella Artois? Shurely not.

Let's face it, the climbing demographic is changing. There was a stage when there was a popular perception of the hard-drinking, hard-climbing (northern) climber - that was to some degree courted by the climbers of the time. Whillans, Haston, Street, the Burgesses, whoever. Al alludes to this and the fact that it has taken its toll in some cases. Nowadays it's not quite so macho - heck even boulderers and ladies get out there. It would be difficult to say alcohol and climbing are unconnected, and whilst Al is an extreme end of a spectrum (of both drinking and climbing) IMHO it's relevant to a climbers site.

HTH

Ben B

In reply to John Gresty:

Wow, my first marathon, we finished in 3.33, I guess we both got a lot quicker after that How did you know who I was ?

In reply to Norrie Muir:
Right, I've got my pen out now

In reply to ben b: ALL the good climbers I know dont drink before or during climbing, al and his cronies obviously (in the past)just used getting out to the crag as an excuse to drink. Having a wee bevvy in good company AFTER a hard day on the hill is one of lifes pleasures. As Ive hinted the link between climbing and alcoholism is a load of bollocks, however there is no doubt a link between someone climbing as a way of escaping their psychological issues, just the same way as drink is used for this by some people.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:


Mick, this does smack of tabloid newspaper ethics. Tabloid newspapers publish whatever they feel will sell a newspaper. As Ive allready said, would you have been enthusiastic about a non-name (non celebrity) writing an article about their alcoholism?

In reply to Al Evans: I don't care about the criticism, I never have, I mostly post things to provoke discussion, but they are always true, including Freddy the cat and Joe the monkey! But I don't understand the vehemence from certain individuals on this one,are you feeling threatened? Remember I was asked by one of the mods to allow this as an article, it was just a post originally, and I have no struggle with having said yes.
And Mick is correct, I bet I am a pain in the a**e to the mods at times

In reply to Al Evans:

one good thing your article has done for me is to make me think again about the limits of alcoholism and how it starts.

sobering (?) stuff.

In reply to Al Evans:

Erik is just being his usual arse, see his postings on Scottish Climbs. He mentions having a drink after being on the hill, you were talking of the days when people could not afford to get to the hills often but lived between The Moon, Stoney cafe and the crag. The drinking when we went to the lakes or Wales was usually saved for after being on the hill, though I did bid 2/6 for a can of lager off Ray Evans one very hot day on the top of Cloggy. It sold for 1/3 at the time, but he would not sell me a can.

Scottish climbers were not abstainers either, a lot used to drink so much in the hut overnight they were still pissed next day. Carrying a bottle of whisky instead of beer saves weight but leads to overconsumption.

Spain 82. Went on holiday to Majorca as the world cup was being held on mainland Spain, the drunks shouting in the street at 3am were all chanting for Scottish football clubs, mainly Celtic. Perhaps Eric is in denial.

In reply to Erik B:

I would not its not just good climbers. I really can't think of a time when I can remember anyone drinking booze and then climbing - and climbing with I guess hundreds of different folk through the years.

Going to the pub after, sure - or in the tent if camping. But not during the climbing day. I think thing have changed a lot if it was 'common' in the 70s.

In reply to sutty:


Not climbers surely? Don't think Erik is denying that Scots folk occasionally get pissed.

In reply to TobyA: But you can climb well even if you drink to excess. Plenty of climbing alcoholics, where in other sports drinking would preclude you from reaching a certain level of aptitude.

In reply to Rosie A: Thats true Rosie, I used to be a reasonable runner, when I trained I used to reckon that one mile equalled half a pint in reward, problem was I was running 80 miles a week. I'm sure I would have been a better runner if I hadn't had that rule.
The difference is that climbing also has a fear factor as well as a physical one and thats why climbers sometimes perform better after drink in the short term, most other athletes never do.

In reply to sutty:

Given we didn't pay to read this article what's his problem?

Tell me about it.

In reply to TobyA:


Was in Ben Alder Cottage circa 1990 and met a bloke who described drinking, eating magic mushy omelettes, mainlining and renting cheap hookers. All this on a climbing trip. I'm quite sure addicts of one sort or another are just like buses. There'll be another along in a minute.

In reply to Al Evans: I'll give it a go, might help to sort my head out on the lead!

In reply to Rosie A:

There a some good examples of footballers for whom boozing does not seem to have been a barrier.

In reply to Horse: Yes but arguably they only reached a certain level of aptitude. (Alright one notable exception!)

In reply to Rosie A: They (there's many) all reached the high levels, however they never stayed there that long.

In recent years Paul McGraph, Tony Adams, Bryan Robson, Roy Keane, Paul Merson, Paul Gascoigne..

In fact I bet you could name a alcoholics IX, managed by Clough, that could compete with any world IX.

In reply to sutty:

Dear sutty

Yet again you have jumped in with your hob nail boots, showing your ignorance and bias. In your days, it may have been different, but hill days are not missed out through drink now.

If you insist in bringing in drunken Scottish football fans, at least mention that they never ran rampage, stabbing and causing mayhem like other football fans.

Norrie

In reply to TobyA:

Dear Toby

It may have been common to you and your friend in the 70's, but not for everyone. I climbed throughout the 70's and neither myself or my friends drank on the hill while climbing. Drinking was confined to afterwards, in my case, usually at the weekend, because I climbed mid week when sober.

Don’t believe all the myths about drinking and climbing.

Norrie

In reply to Norrie Muir:

Norrie, I did not jump in with my hobnailers, just told it as it was. I decline to mention names on here,but you mentioned one the other week who did a few new routes with the Craig Ddu and he did climb after a hard nights drinking.

Scottish fans, aye you better read this then.

The media has played a very important role in this. By organising themselves into very large groups at matches abroad, the Scottish fans attract a great deal of media attention, but by displaying themselves as nothing more than friendly, albeit drunken, fans their press coverage is predominantly positive. The Scottish media has been behind this transformation, namely by representing English fans as hooligans and by underplaying any trouble which has occurred involving Scottish fans.

In reply to Norrie Muir:
Dear Norrie,

Please try reading more carefully so your answers make some sense. The only things I was climbing in the (late) 70s were climbing frames and trees.


I don't which is exactly what my original post suggested.

In reply to sutty:

Dear sutty

I don’t recall him being a hardened drinker. Who is the ‘Craig Ddu’, some Welsh singer.

Aye, right, blame the media for giving the Scots a good image and the English a bad image. Lay off the drink, you are getting hallucinations and paranoia regarding the English Football fans.

Norrie

In reply to sutty:


Is that by 'displaying' themselves as friendly drunken fans, or by actually being friendly drunks fans?


Aye right, cos' the Scottish media carries so much weight south of the Border.

Anyway, back on topic. I didn't read all Al's article - I'm not a great fan of soul-baring personal stuff like this - but I did think it was a brave thing to do, and I hope Al's future is brighter. As to whether it should have been published here - why not? It's a climber's story. Anyone who doesn't like it has the option to turn away whenever they want.

In reply to Norrie Muir:

Here you are Norrie, you may be able to read it even at your age and with your eyes as long as you put your glasses on;

http://www.sirc.org/publik/fvmedia.html

I am sorry for using the Welsh Craig instead of the Scottish Creagh.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

Just read that, respect to Al. All the best for the future.

In reply to TobyA:


It happened. I, for one, drank and soloed in the 70s. With me, it wasn't for Dutch courage - it just heightened the buzz. I loved the flow and the feeling of pushing the boundaries of control, with the ultimate penalty for any error.

I'm not proud of it, not ashamed of it and am certainly not advocating it. But it happened.

Mick

In reply to sutty:

Dear sutty

Thanks for the reference, after reading it, I am more convinced by your paranoia. The media is behind, as in supporting, our positive image. The Scottish media did not create this positive image, but is only reinforcing it. The Scottish media did not create English football fan’s negative image.

Some people can’t see why there is a difference of perception of the Scottish and English football fans, they usually can’t tell the difference between Welsh and Scottish languages either.

Norrie

In reply to anyone in particular and Erik.

Change the context. You class yourself as "desk tied and corporate" or some such.

so, change the article slightly to Alcoholism and the City and would it be out of place in the The Lawyer, Economist, Estates Gazette or some such?

The point being, that alcohol and the culture that surrounds it play a central part in those industries, just as it has done in climbing circles for years. Even recent obits have alluded to the ability of someone to get up and get uon the hill despite a raging hangover from a monster session the night before. Haston is a legend from it and Whillans and the Burgess twins are nver more than a reach away from a pint in most of the stories.


and Micks comment about being able compartmentalise your life such that climbing exists in isolation is very petinent.

In reply to Mick Ward:
Dear Mick

Yes, some people drank and soloed others didn't. The reason I didn't drink and solo was I prefered to be in control. I accepted the risks involved, but soling with a drink in me was a no no.

I don't look down on others who did drink and climb, that was their choice, just like soloing, I don't look down on those who don't.

Norrie

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
How very ironic. I sent a few articles into Climb recently. One was about top-roping and another was about a gnarly Scottish climber. I shall have to find out if they intend to use them or not.

Re Al's article.

One of the things I like is that climbing is surrounded by an entire climbing sub-culture, which is enriched by its participants.
It's not just the great routes or pioneering influence that makes people like Robin Smith, Dougal Haston, Don Whillans or Gwen Moffatt interesting. It's also their unique personalities, their trials and tribulations and the way their lives are woven around their climbing.
If all we ever heard about was the hard routes the people do, it would give the impression that climbing was far less than it is.
It's people like Al and Norrie who contribute to that richness. If someone has a story to tell, then let it be told, and those who don't want to hear it can turn away.
I don't have an issue with Erik or anyone else saying they disagree with that view though. Life would be boring if we were all the same.

A strong editor has faith in their own judgement. It's impossible to please everyone.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
Dear Mick

Aye, I know a few, the tales are great, but they are not into writting the write.

Norrie

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
Al : I would never have guessed - good luck & great to know that there's no long-term damage. Get better & keep better - God knows there's few enough of us old'uns about without yet another way of reducing the numbers cropping up!

In reply to Al Evans: Great article, many thanks. Good luck with the rehabilitation.
Whilst reading it, I did wonder whether this is the tip of the iceberg, and how many ordinary climbers have pushed beyond a justifiable level of risk simply because of their alcohol level.

I knew about some of the drink-fuelled incidents (Keith Myhill for instance) at the time, but didn't realise that drink played a significant part. If I'd known, I might have viewed quite a few daring solos and hard leads rather differently. It's a relevant article from this aspect alone, reminding me of the Jim Perrin Coronation Street solo which gave me nightmares!

I think a lot of it went on, and mostly people got away with it, though only just. My climbing partner for a while, once told me of his traditional annual climb at Willersley. Climbing straight after the pub, they always did the same route, but increased the drinking year after year. He was belaying the leader (I think they were at the five pints level by then), who fell from near the top and his rope holding (waist belay) proved inadequate. He only managed to prevent a crater by allowing the rope to run over his bare arm, with obvious consequences and he still bears the scar.

In reply to Andy Stephenson: JP's article is interesting, he later, after publishing it, tried to sue the CC for re-running it in the centenary journal. I certainly won't ever do that!
Love you Jim by the way

In reply to Al Evans:

My understanding (which may be incorrect; I've not asked Jim) was that the CC editor, Terry, 'edited' the article without any consultation with the author - scarcely good editorial practice, if so!

Re law suits, I think Jim let him off (again, I may be wrong). That may be due to practical difficulties, or magnanimity - hopefully the latter. Given Terry's 'anti-Perrin' chums, not to mention another well publicised lawsuit, perhaps Jim was very magnanimous indeed.

Whoops, didn't mean to write so much about something which is none of my business. But, for what little it's worth, that's my understanding of it.

Mick

In reply to sutty: less of the "arse" you old thick tw*t! please read my posts and try and understand what Im saying. I like to drink after a hard day's winter climbing, but usually this doesnt involve that much as Im too knackered. The key is to have a balance, as with everything else in life. I have nothing against Al writing about his hardships and victories and drink is a major issue in our society. As i have repeatadly said in this thread i have 2 issues:-

1. i am questioning the motives and validity of publishing this on UKC, Mick has implied he did it because Al was well known ie a 'name' or 'celebrity' even as far afield as the US. mick and others have even cited the viewing/reader figures as justification/vindicaton for publishing it. Like it or not the UKC forum is now part of 'the media' and as such editorial decisions and the ethics of publishing should involve conscious and careful thought processes. This particular article smacks to me of tabloid sensationalism in an increasingly voyeuristic society.
2. That there is somehow a causitive relationship between climbing and drinking is total nonsense, climbing as an entity doesnt make you drink to excess. Folk turn to drink for various reasons primarily psychological (and perhaps genetics?) Also, the danger of climbing when your drunk is a no brainer, just ask the young lads who scale ridiculous inner city buildings etc when they are pished on buckfast.

Al, I am not criticsing you in the slightest and I admired your honesty and self analysis through what has obviously been a traumatic time for you, good luck in your fight with the demons.

In reply to Erik B:

Not even read that last bit, the arse still stands you numbskull. If you are so selective as to read an article you do not want to read it shows you are thicker than three thick planks. I certainly do not read everything there is, I engage my eyes and brain and select my reading matter. I suggest you do the same.

In reply to Erik B:


You implied that, I didn't. I explained my reasons above.

Apart from that, the same old rules don't apply here. Anyone can express themselves. There is really no editorial filter although some do get more prominence than others for several reasons.

Take your critique of whether this should be published or not. If Al's piece had been published in either Climb or Climber you would not have had the opportunity to express your opinion, un-edited and un-filtered, to the UK climbing community, potentially everyone who climbs in the UK.

The 'tabloid' moniker doesn't really stick. Newspapers like the Sun or whatever are exploitive, they exploite people, people who quite often have no control over whether they are written about and what is said. We asked Al for permission before we published his article.

Mick

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: And I gave it gladly.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

Mick, how about a new registered- users- only forum for these soul- searching threads?

I don't reckon it's very responsible for UKC to encourage this confessional style of web forum without affording those who contribute some degree of privacy?
Think about the consequences. Most people are well balanced here and don't particularly wish to control others, but there is a lot of deeply personal info getting blasted into the net here and it could be used to negative effect easily.

Also, I would like to be able de- select the resulting forum as it isn't of particular interest to me. It's mainly climbing I read UKC for. There's my honest opinion. Serious question, how about it Mick?

Davie

In reply to I am the God of Strathyre:

In other words what we need is a bullshit filter.

In reply to I am the God of Strathyre:


It's called the Chat room....registered users only.

In reply to I am the God of Strathyre: But you can deselect, what is the problem? And I dont need protecting, and I dont bullshit. Everything I write is true, unlike a lot of many people who post on here, even the stuff about Freddy.
There about half a dozen people who have posted on this thread who have been offensive, I can cope with that.
Al

In reply to I am the God of Strathyre:


Some people have tried that on several occaisions and have been warned, the posts zapped and in some cases the poster banned. It is taken very seriously Davie. I know what you mean.

In reply to Al Evans:


Offensive really. I don't think so. Because some don't agree with you doesn't mean to say that people are being offensive.

Take Erik B, he's not being offensive. Just voicing an opinion and backed up with good arguments in some cases.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: Thanks Alison, and Mick, I dont care, or maybe that should be I don't mind, but actually some people have been offensive. What is there to agree or disagree with? Its just a true real life story?
Al

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

Dear Mick

You seem to spend a lot of time and effort defending your position in publishing this topic. It reminds me of Alastair Campbell, getting in the road of the story.

Norrie

In reply to Al Evans:

Sorry. I deleted my post because I don't want to appear to be interfering in other people's arguments. Some people have been offensive to others.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

I agree that some people HAVE been offensive - when I said I found the post fascinating, I was asked "are you an alcoholic"?

That didn't offend me, as I know there isn't a grain of truth in the suggestion - but some people could have been upset by it.

In reply to AliceW:

Dear Alice

I hope you were not offended by my post to you?

Norrie

In reply to Norrie Muir:

No, it wasn't you - and I didn't take offence at the particular comment I referred to, but I still think it was rude.

In reply to AliceW:

Dear Alice

Thanks.

Norrie

I don't think someone disagreeing with this article and giving their reasons for doing so is being offensive, but merely expressing an opinion which is their right to do so. Why must these discussions end up in petty name calling tho (???) as soon as one or two folk disagree with the majority.

Also Norrie, I think that if Mick is being critisized for putting this article on UKC, then he has a right to defend his actions.

In reply to Norrie Muir:

Me thinks the lady doesth presume too much, I type fast and think even faster, my downfall.

In reply to sutty: I take offence to 1. you suggesting I have a drink problem (it is none of you or anyone elses business if i do or not) 2. I read Als article with interest but i am not talking about whether it is a good piece of writing or an interesting read, i am questioning 2 issues which i have summarised above.

In reply to Erik B: Erik, I dont care if you or anybody else EVER thinks a piece of my writing is a good piece of writing, particularly you who is in a very small minority, but thats not why I allowed it to be published, it was intended as a salutary warning, and maybe of interest to some. It seems to have worked, what is your problem???

In reply to Al Evans:

For FFS Al read what Erik B is writing.

Jeez.

Mick

In reply to Al Evans:

what is your problem???

Dear Al

I think Erik's 'problem' is not with you, but with Mick's publishing your post. Even Mick realises this.

Norrie

In reply to Al Evans: please explain what you mean by " particularly you who is in a very small minority"

I find it sad that even outspoken 'tell it like it is' guys like you are so quick to shout down folk like me who speak their mind. by the way, i am not one of the 'majority' UKC posters who you seem to think tells porkies, everything i say about myself and my lifes experiences are the truth. afterall as you are all to aware, you are only cheating yourself.

In reply to Erik B:

Eric

I too share your concerns regarding Mick's motives, and your tabloid comments do ring true. I tend to think Mick is only out to get the 'hit/post count' up for UKC. I think his recent 'Hardest trad' cross post to SuperTopo is a prime example of this behaviour.

I guess you can't blame him for that, unpalatable as it sometimes appears.

-John

In reply to JohnBoy:

To reach as many climbers as possible and to cater to all climbers.

In reply to JohnBoy:
Well, that's answered the one about why Mick is defending himself.

In reply to JohnBoy:

Johnboy

I own UKC and I don't share your concern.

Mick has a brief from us to source and produce good and varied articles. There is no requirement that he should increase hits, nor do we even measure that specific article figures. All we want is a good stream of articles and this fits into it.

What other articles have given you this sensationalist-tabloid impression?

Alan

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

I trust you had a smirk on your face when you typed that, very Messianic.

You see the best way to deal with Mick, I suspect is to ignore him.

Goodnight!

In reply to JohnBoy:

The best way to deal with anything you don't like is to ignore them. Including articles. Then the rest of the world can read them in peace.

In reply to Alison Stockwell:

First off Alison I'm not defending why we picked up Al's articles and published in the articles section. All I'm doing is explaining why we did this.

As regards John's post above I'll explain why I cross-post and have done for many years.


Behaviour as in 'tabloid' behaviour. Now I'm not sure what tabloid behaviour is and would like somebody to explain it. Cross-posting between this site and mainly USA climbing sites is a form of cultural exchange, especially in the example cited by John (Hardest Trad Route in the World?).....it stimulated interesting debate as to what consitutes a 'traditional' ascent, many people contributed even such trad daddies as John Bachar.

You won't get that kind of debate in a climbing magazine I can assure you or in a pub conversation about ethics. The internet brings a whole new aspect to the game of communication we can either ignore it or go for it. We go for it with the resources we have.


That unpalatable John. If you want sex, rumour, trash read the Sun or check this site out http://judecalverttoulmin.blogspot.com/

In reply to Erik B:
I watch with interest the development of your view points and the answers given by different folk, particularly Mick's(UKC).
Without criticsm Erik, just an observation, you are being treated equally with Al and the others, and Voltaires comment "I disapprove of what you are saying, but I will defend to the death your right to say it" is being universally applied on this forum ... to you and the other contributors.
Glad to see open mindedness still exists.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

Sorry Mick?

In reply to Al Evans:

Eric siad I accused him of having a drink problem, well if he says that it must be true. I never meant that any one person had a drink problem, just that some people do have one.

OK, this article came out of the what you drinking thread and some teenager said they were having a Jamesons or two and I came back at him, warning that drinking spirits when a teenager is not good for you as it can quickly lead to damage.
The thread developed, in the chat room at that time so those not having the chatroom ticked would not see it.
Al then added his article to the thread and then it was suggested it was made into an article in its own right.

I asked for the original thread to be moved DTP so it did not get deleted and to provide history of Als thread.

Now could those people like Eric and Norrie wind their necks in and make constructive comments or please leave the thread.

In reply to sutty:

The 3 of you (you, Erik and Norrie) have been slinging insults at each other for half the thread. Why don't you take a step back from the handbags and realise you're all as daft as each other?
And Al, I don't think anybody here is arguing whether or not you can write. You can. It's whether this style of article is what people want to see here or not.

Davie

In reply to I am the God of Strathyre: Thats ok by me Davie, I don't make any rules!

In reply to sutty:

Dear sutty

Is this constructive enough for your approval? You sound like some old spinster who had to be obeyed, who gives you the right to tell people what to do? Alan James has to right to tell people what not to post because he owns UKC, you are just some interferring busybody. If you could look past your preconceived views, you would notice, I never made any negative comments about Al.

Here is another constuctive comment, act your age.

Norrie

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
Great article. Just one thing though - I don't really get the connection between climbing drunk and living drunk.

Climbing is dangerous drunk or sober, and there have been lots more sober accidents than drunk ones.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
Very intersting article Al - thanks to you for writing it and allowing it to be published.

What is your advice on intervention from a mates point of view. How proactive should friends be when seeing this type of drug abuse happening to one of their friends - and how proactive would the 'victim' allow his/her mates to be? (maybe I should be asking Jack or Anni!?)

Having read the article I sympathise with the author but personally having been both a climber and an at times quite enthusiastic boozer for many years I see very little connection between the two activities. The only exception to this would be that awkward stage of experimenting with drink but also being an under age school pupil still living at home, when camping/bothying trips into the hills allowed drinking and the aftermath away from parental and legal eyes. However I have never had any desire to drink before or during climbing. I speak as one who has never needed much temptation to combine other hobbies with being drunk. Apart from the practicalities e.g. carrying it up the hill, driving, dehydration, hypothermia etc climbing anywhere near my limit requires a totally clear head, for me anyway. Even climbing with much of a hangover is something I tend to avoid nowadays. If my partner(s) have made the time and effort to go for a biggish route up a hill somewhere, being the zombie lagging behind on the walk in and generally acting as a passenger or liability seems a bit selfish really.
Again I respect the author's decision to publicise his experiences but I reckon that drinking as a part of climbing must be a bit old fashioned really. No doubt many heroes of the 60s or 70s took a good bucket eg Don Whillans but nowadays the physical demands of climbing and training at the very top level must be incompatible with regular heavy drinking, just the same as world class rugby players no longer rehydrate with 20 pints after training.

In reply to Lewis climber: the thought police just deleted one of my posts, it wasnt even bad...

In reply to robw007: Anni was wonderful, but its a stressful thing to do. Jack has been my most proactive friend mainly because he has gone through it too and come out at the right end, I'm probably still working on it, but maybe we have had enough of this thread, lets talk monkeys when Mick publishes my next article instead.

In reply to Al Evans: Sorry, saw the article earlier in the week but just got a chance to read it. The only criteria I can run it past is 'did it interest me?' Yes it did and therefore, as far as I'm concerend, yep it deserves its place here. Never mind the bullsh*t, take care of yourself and thanks for your honesty.

In reply to feepole:
Thank you all.
Al

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

A very touching story and I wish you well with your future, Al. I have personally known four alcoholics and three of them are now dead. One was a workmate but the other two were much closer.

Alcoholism is a terrible place to be and I am glad that you have admitted and talked about your problem, it's the first stage in finding a way back. Be strong.

Jeannie

In reply to jhenryb:


Great line of thinking. Not.

In reply to DougG:

Just like driving, really.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

How do you reply to the person this is about anyway. I apologise for spelling mistakes since pissed. Whats my point you my ask? Well climbing is social, drinking is social, drugs are social, I've been know to partake in all of them. What am least successful at? Climbing. Why, downers, hangovers and things like that. Some people can handle the the rock and roll, I can't and I'm only 30 (when I was younger i could do all sorts after a night on the piss ), I aspire to some things which deserve some respect so I'm sorry to say that I'm now trying to respect my body a little bit more. Tofo and rusks for me now.

Respect Al.

John

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

Don't have time to read all the posts but I am in the same boat as Al. I was supping 2+ litres of vodka per day after starting on the 8.4% tramp juice. My life is back on track now, lovely wife, plenty of animals (unconditional love from all except abusive parents)Still miss a pint after doing a few routes, got a bit silly with the dutch courage and it went downhill for 15 years.

All the best to anyone else in the situation, still feel guilty for being such a pratt.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

What I can't understand is why Al Evans wishes to air his personal crisis on a public forum such as this?
Fine, confide in relatives, friends and such like if it helps banish the demons, but why tell a bunch of UKC people most of whom do not know him -other than that reported in the media regarding his climbing success- about his woes? If he feels the need to talk to a non-judgemental stranger, then there are numerous phone help-lines.
Al Evans appears to justify publication of his article by a wish to warn people away from the dangers of drink-climbing, but we're all grown-up people and able to make informed descisions regarding our own lives; do we really need to be 'warned'? Isn't that akin to telling us not to drink-drive, which everyone knows is dangerous, or even to look both ways when crossing the road? If people have a tendency to drink and drive then surely they will anyway, irrespective of the advice from friends or the media? And if I wish to cross the road with my eyes closed then I must expect to get knocked-down at some point.
It appears to me, that maybe there is another motive for Al Evans' writing of the article; that being the personal well-being gained from the reading of the reply posts wishing him well. Some of which -and this is my opinion so don't knee-jerk slate me- border on the sycophantic. If this suggestion is the truth, then fine; anything to help the re-hab following a traumatic event in Al Evans' life is but a good thing if it helps him. However, is a public climbing forum the most suitable place to do this? Surely a forum linked to alcohol abuse (and I'm sure there must be many) would be more appropriate? I'm assuming by stating this, that the vast majority of posters on this climbing website have no real personal experience of the horrors of alcohol abuse and connot really sympathise with Al Evans at all, beyond a simple, "Get well soon, mate"?
Anyway, I'm sure you lot will now 'correct' me.

In reply to FedUp:

Short question: in your line of work, do you get many visits from alcoholics? I guess none of them would have taken any notice of any kind of peers!

Pete

In reply to FedUp:

What motivates anyone to write anything? I think you are being unfairly cynical.

My experience of the climbing world is that it is surprisingly small, and Al is an integral part of it. I've not met him but I had already heard about his "personal crisis" through the grapevine before the article appeared on here, and from multiple sources. I think it was a bold gesture and I find it helpful to hear Al's side of the story. It affects the way I judge him; and in a positive way.

In reply to FedUp:

Prat, and useless with it. NHS emloyee, do you work in the canteen then? You sure as hell aint a caring person.

In reply to sutty:

They're strong words for someone who was just expressing his opinion. How can you comment on his proficiency at work after reading one post.

Perhaps in his line of work he has more experience of dealing with alcohol related problems than most on here.

Just because he doesn't believe that a climbing forum, like this, isn't the place for airing details of your personal life doesn't make him uncaring.

Bob

In reply to FedUp:

You're not a prat, and you've raised some worthwhile points. I think Al is pretty privileged among alcoholics to have such a platform from which to engage in the confessional catharsis that addicts seem to need, and which therapists etc recommend. His motives are no doubt complex, as is addiction, but the basic need to share one's personal disasters seems straightforward. The AA is all about sharing, as are most therapeutic groups, as far as I understand.

A slight cause for concern is that addicts generally feel a far greater need to share with other addicts during recovery, and a need to share with anyone out there during interrupted recovery. So I hope he genuinely is recovering, and not relapsing. I've been around a lot of addicts, and I know something about it, and I find this thread a little worrying from that point of view. I genuinely hope it's working.

In reply to bob champion:

Did you read the thread where the article was first published before becoming an article, if not go and read it first before commenting. Al's posting was in response to a lot more bravado about heavy drinking by teenagers.

In reply to sutty:

I've read both posts. I still don't know how you can make such a statement about someones work ethics from one post.

I've not mentioned the reasons for Al writing the article. They're irrelevant to your post. Fed up has posted his opinion, which the whole forum is about. Just because you don't agree with what he's written doesn't make it justified to slate him like that.

It seems to be the norm on UKclimbing these days to shout down all that don't agree with the majority view.

Bob

In reply to Colonel:


Understandable... but no need. We've all been prats - different times, different places, alas, different people. Stuff happens. You just pick yourself up and start again. Which you have - successfully. So good do.

Mick

In reply to bob champion:
No, it's the norm to shout down people who don't agree with your own view. Just because it also happens to be the majority view does not diminish the validity of personal opinion.

In reply to Alison Stockwell:

This thread is on the wrong forum and has been moved to Down the Pub

But seriously Al have a read of this article on the BBC news website:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/4994602.stm

In reply to bob champion:

Just because you don't agree with what he's written doesn't make it justified to slate him like that.
Dear bob

But that is sutty's style. A pity he never understood what Mick Ryan posted.

Norrie

In reply to Alison Stockwell:

Looks like a bit of a contradiction there.

If someones opinion is valid. There's no need to shout it down. Disagree maybe, but not shout it down.

Every time someone has expressed a view on this post, that doesn't fit in with the majority, the regulars have been queing up to shoot them down.



Bob

In reply to Pacific:

Well, exactly. Don't you think it's a huge step forward that not only has Al reached the point of being able to admit his problem, but he has done so publicly within his peer group?

As my long-suffering teenage daughter constantly reminds me: "The only people who are interested in climbers are other climbers."

I think we should offer Al support and encouragement.

In reply to bob champion:

I was not shouting anyone down, just checked his profile and saw he said he worrks for NHS. Would not want someone like him using his lack of skills on me.

In reply to bob champion:

I don't agree. I think there has been frank exchange of views on both sides. It's just that when there are more people on one side than the other there are going to be more views expressed on that side than the other. Obviously.

I suppose I do feel that when someone is down and needs a few words of support, it's no skin off anyone's nose to offer that. And if not; keep quiet.

In reply to sutty:

What lack of skills?

Having an opinion which is different to yours isn't a lack of skills.

Bob

In reply to bob champion:

Yes, and the last thing an alcoholic needs is a hundred people patting him on the back, with no dissenting voices anywhere. The majority of people who have posted on this thread have no idea what they are involving themselves in, and are just doing what seems right for them in a situation they don't understand. Personally, I find it all pretty worrying. The rather kneejerk abuse seems symptomatic of that basic, general lack of understanding.

In reply to Alison Stockwell:

If the article is published on a forum like this. Then you have to expect both sides of the argument.

Just because it may offend the author is no excuse for keeping "quiet". He may well need support, but this forum isn't the place for it.

I appreciate why Al published the post on the original thread. But, once published in it's own right. He became open for those that don't agree with him. He must have realised that when it was published. For his friends to block all opinions that don't agree with theres just makes it look like it was an attempt at getting attention. Which from the initial post, I'm sure, isn't the case.

You can't say that someone has a valid opinion when it looks like a concerted effort to block them. I'm sure Al will read all posts regardless of your efforts.

Bob

In reply to Alison Stockwell:

That's too simplistic, Alison. Addicts do not need unmitigated congratulations and gestures of good will. They need questioning, challenging and understanding. Most of all they need absolute honesty from others and themselves.

In reply to Steve Parker:

Well, someone did ask Al what the best way to help an alcoholic friend was. I'm sure lots of us would like to know that. Many people know someone in that situation. If you have expertise in that area, it would be helpful if you could post some pointers.

In reply to bob champion:
I'm assuming you don't mean me personally as I haven't made any efforts to block anything. If you care to read back, I said Erik was quite right to say what he thought, as is anyone. I'm inclined to think that if someone has a problem it doesn't help to be negative. But Steve P has just said that's too simplistic and he usually knows what he's talking about. Ultimately, I'm on Al's side; as I'd hope people would be if I had a problem.

In reply to Alison Stockwell:

Alison, I do not agree with what Erik or anyone else said about the subject should not have been put on here.
there are half a dozen other threads where people are yattering away talking rubbish but I am not going on there and telling them they are wrong, I leave them to it. conversely, those who say this article should not be on here are wrong, it has as much right as those who ask about tax, insurance, plumbing, laying floors, cats or dogs, injuries etc.
If they do not wish to read it then don't, just pass on by.

In reply to Alison Stockwell:

Well, number one is not to let them believe that everyone in the world is their best mate. All addicts love the idea that they can showboat and get the attention of a load of adoring admirers - that's a big part of the reason they started doing it in the first place: the urge to feel that the world is more attractive and more welcoming. When the adoration goes, respectful concern and good wishes (with no actual questioning or real involvement) are satisfactory substitutes.

I'm not criticising Al, as he will be attempting to deal with his recovery in all of the complex ways that addicts do, and I wish him all the very best (as I'm sure Bob and Fedup do too), but addicts are very far from the best people to assess how best to handle that recovery. They ALWAYS look for the same old kinds of attention, and given enough of it, they'll feel sufficiently cozy to start up drinking (or whatever) again.

Anyone who thinks that issuing simple messages of congratulation or encouragement on this thread is helpful has no understanding of addiction. No criticism, as it's not easy to understand. I could say a hell of a lot more here, but I'll skip it. I've also had abuse issues, and I've followed a lot of people through their progress, some of them to death. I'm not bullshitting here. Everything about the article and this thread worries me.

Very best wishes to Al with one of the least understood and least recognised illnesses going.

In reply to Steve Parker:

Steve, personally I think Al's article raises awareness of a very real and hidden problem. If it saves one person from death by cirhosis by raising awareness then Al's article has done its job.

My father died from cirhosis of the liver ( he was almost teetotal but was affected by another illness) and over the years I saw many dying alcoholics .. not a nice way to go.

Take care all.

In reply to JimR:

Don't get me wrong, I've got no problem at all with Al and UKC publishing this article. It might just be useful for Al, and as you say it might be useful for others. I just hope it's what it purports to be, and not something else. I've seen plenty of people die too, and my concern here is that not all is as it seems to be. Let's hope it is.

In reply to Alison Stockwell:

Glad you put ultimately there Alison. I wish Al all the best and hope he recovers fully, fully enough to enjoy the odd social drink now and again if that is possible. But also so that he continues to be get the most from this precious life that has been given to us all (and is so easily taken away), and he seems to be as far as I know (although I don't know him only know of him).

What interests me is this taking of 'sides' and this name calling, sometimes guilty of it myself in the past. In the end and the beginning wielding the ego it is futile. This new media, the internet, is in its infancy and many of us are searching for what it means and how it effects us. There's quite a learning curve to grasp what it is and how to use it but above all it is open to all and our diverse opinions, some are wise, some very inexperienced but at least it isn't exclusive like some media. Above all we should respect that and sometimes take a deep breathe and step back a while.

Some will have got nothing from Al's piece, some will argue that it shouldn't be published, some will comment, some won't, some will applaud it, some will be indifferent, some will deny they ever read it, some will think twice I'm sure about buying that bottle of vodka when they are bored or depressed, some will view it with tabloid curiosity and it will fuel many a pub discussion.

It doesn't really matter what 'side' you are on. Whatever you think, even if it is not much you will get 'something' from it, and that was the point of publishing it on UKC. There is a big diverse crowd of us out there.

Mick

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

Well, if the criterion is that someone gets something out of it, I've got a good article about butterfly collecting that might fit the bill. Don't be daft, it's got to do a little more than that. This particular article is unusual for a climbing forum, because climbing forums ordinarily specialise in climbing material.

This one works because Al is well known and quite popular, so people want to read his stuff, especially when it's got a big pic of Ron on the front. But any idea that it's anything other than a showboat for Al and his stuff is just foolish.

Nothing necessarily wrong with that (lets give our own a little help etc), but please don't make it into some public interest article, when it's clearly a privilege extended to Al, which wouldn't be extended to others.

In reply to Steve Parker:

That is so wrong I don't even feel like explaining (but may later).

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

Get real, Mick. It's a commercial site. Nothing wrong with that in the slightest, but it's not a platform for confessional alcoholics, unless they happen to have something about them which might engage the interest of the climbing community.

In reply to Steve Parker:

As we all have.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

Nonsense, not when it comes to publication. What is this? Fluffy-we-are-all-equal-world? Some things are more interesting and engaging than others, clearly.

In reply to Steve Parker:

Uh yes we are, equal but different, nothing fluffy about that, it's reality.


Yip, some things that are interesting and engaging to some are not interesting and engaging to others. Perhaps Al's article might teach that lesson.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

Come on, Mick, there are certain characteristics of an article or thread which engage people. The author is one of those, obviously. Al has a certain something going on which makes him seem like one of the good guys, but ultimately this whole deal is about the need for attention of someone who is very ill. And if you think you've got it covered, then you're kidding yourself. It may or may not have been a good move to publish this article, but it's far from as clear or as simplistic as you're making out.

Ulimately, I suspect you have no idea what is going on here.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

If the article has been published for some idea of educating others, then you are misguided. No one is going to learn anything about real addiction from this, and this attitude does a disservice to all of those addicts who struggle daily. You clearly have no idea what you are talking about, and are living in some world where rather glamorous confessionals might just save others from stepping into the same sewer. Sorry, it doesn't work like that.

In reply to Steve Parker:


Write an article for UKC enlightening us.

In reply to Steve Parker:

Mick said

Steve said

Read what I said, not what you imagined I said. Al's article (and the responses) might teach some that what is interesting and engaging to some may not be interesting and engaging to others.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

I might. I remember taking my heroin addict brother out climbing, and him whooping with a mixture of terror and delight when I got him to abseil off the big overhang at World's End in North Wales. Christ, he shouted, this is better than gear!

Later on we walked down the boulder field looking at fossils. That was probably the last day out I had with him. My memory is a bit hazy around that time.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:


What, so now it's an education about what's interesting? Christ, you sure know how to shift your goalposts, Mick, old chap!

In reply to Steve Parker:

Steve, you are being unfair now, both to me and Mick, anybody can submit an article to UKC and if they kie it enough it will get published, it doesn't matter if you are Al Evans or Betty Boop (have you read her article by the way?).
This was a double thing when I wrote it, yes it was hoped some people might watch themselves, its like smoking, much harder to get out of than not to start or be moderate, it was just a warning.
Yes it was also a cathartic thing, in fact thats all it was when I started it, finally I thought it worked as an article which does have climbing references and relevance to climbers unlike your proposed article on butterfly collecting which I think you are quite right in thinking Mick would not publish as an article, but you wouldnt be prevented from a forum on it in the chat room.
Al.

In reply to Al Evans:

I'm not criticising you in any way, Al. You're going through your own stuff, probably with a lot of difficulty, and I sincerely hope it's working for you. I also hope you are still getting help with it, as it's very, very easy to relapse without it.

As for the other stuff, we'll never know whether a faceless punter would have got an article like that published here, but I've never seen one like it in any climbing media before. I think it's fine, it works well, and is an interesting and salutary insight into the life of a fellow climber. In fact, I'm not criticising anyone for anything, just supporting a couple of opinions offered by others above, who quickly got snapped at for not joining in the chorus.

Anyway, I really hope you are recovering, Al. F*ck of a waste otherwise. You ever want to talk privately, you're very welcome to email me. All the very best with it.

In reply to Al Evans:

It appears obvious that Steve Parker is not being unfair in any way. Either to you, or to Mick Ryan.
On the contrary he appears, to me, to be simply expressing grave concern that this is not the most appropriate place to write about your illness. It is obvious he has far more experience with various forms of addiction than most of the users of this forum.
Regarding his dialogue with Mick Ryan I can but only agree with Steve Parker: I firmly believe that publication of your article went ahead without due consideration of any possible future implications. Indeed it does appear that it was published only because it is 'you' and maybe because of the tenuous reference to climbing.

Nevertheless, I do wish you well with your recovery. I have no family or other emotional connections to addiction. My experience is merely through work, where I'm able to detach myself from the situation, only regarding it clinically: as I am doing now. I therefore apologise if it appears cold hearted, but this forum in my opinion is no place for idle chatter or congratulations on your progress.

In reply to Steve Parker:

There lies your lack of experience Steve. If by 'faceless punter' you mean a climber who is not well known, well there are many similar articles to Al's that have been published in the climbing media written by climbers that aren't famous.

Anyway Al isn't that famous. Quite notorious on UKC of course, especially now.

The criteria for publishing an article at UKC isn't how famous you are. Look at past articles and those to come.

In reply to FedUp:

I agree with some of your points here, which is why I've kept out of it. But the worthiness of the article is another issue altogether: I think it would have been published on UKC who ever had written it, if the content had been similar and as interesting. Because it does actually have a lot to do with climbing history, in terms of the way drinking was all part of the culture of climbing in the 60s (as drugs later became for a while). Also some extremely interesting historical detail, such as Barry Webb's first ascent of The Tippler after eight pints.

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:


Historically interesting, granted. I'm not really sure the issue is about alcohol, that is merely the weapon of choice in this instance. Al (hopefully) has just started on a therapeutic process, I don't feel he will find any real help or solace here, and I would have thought very carefully and from all points of view prior to publishing.

-John

In reply to JohnBoy: John, I did, so did Mick!

In reply to Al Evans: And as mick says outside of UKC I am not at all famous and internationally anonymous

In reply to FedUp: I'm sorry that you think its idle chatter, that depresses me, or do you mean the forum?

In reply to Al Evans:


Al, I just get the feeling you don't get this.


You've got to get beyond the need for attention, the alcohol and the rejection to deal with this, in my opinion this arena will not help you.

Take care

-John

In reply to JohnBoy: John thats a serious misquote, read the post, I said
As Mick says outside of UKC I am not at all famous and internationally anonymous,
I dont need attention and while I like you a lot, you've got this wrong, not me.
Thanks
Al

In reply to Al Evans: Thats quite different to
Mick says etc etc........

In reply to Al Evans:

I mean, the forum. Not your article.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
Hmm, I've got a couple of shelves groaning under the weight of about 1000 climbing mags and books, and I can't remember a similar article. Anyway, I don't think I've criticised UKC or Al for publishing it. I kept out of this thread for various reasons, and I only felt like saying something when Fedup was getting abused rather unfairly for voicing his sincere concerns.

It developed into an interaction with several other posters, which led me to make my position clear as regards the appropriacy of the article and this thread, and the reponses it was attracting, specifically in terms of how they impact upon recovery from addiction. It's a very dangerous headgame, and I'm far from convinced that this is a healthy way of going about it. I hope I'm wrong about that, but some of the responses actually concerned me far more than the article.

Anyway, I've said all I have to say on the matter. Best wishes to all, especially Al.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
Please see new post in Down the Pub, how I love UKC.

In reply to sutty: Sutty, I know Fed Up slightly having climbed with him for a day, i'm sure there is a lot to him that I don't know about but I have no doubt that he would be a very sensitive and professional person in a situation where his medical expertise would be relevant. He's a good caring guy who we would all be lucky to have around if we needed him. mike