UKC

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/devon/5136316.stm

In reply to The bandit: I'm pushing for a chairlift all the way from the carpark. That hill is a bitch.

In reply to The bandit: oh FFS! this is taking equal oppertunities too the limit! ok so i am in favour of open access for all! but it wll deface the view of the landscape and damage the hill!

i am sure to be pulled apart for these comments, but it is like saying all shelves in shops should be put at a height that all wheelchair users can reach!!! and for that fact, whu not put stairlifts everyehere there is not a lift or ramp! what about the gians causeway?!?!

sorry.

Jess.x

In reply to The bandit: http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?n=189911

In reply to Little Brew:


And what is so preposterous about that suggestion. All new build houses have to be designed with disabled access in mind.

In reply to The bandit:

Can we get a slide down the other side?

In reply to The bandit:

would make setting up a top rope a bit easier

In reply to Little Brew:

The building regulations people have told us that all our new light switches in the extension need to be at wiast hieght for this very reason. The rest of the house is Edwardian and we'd hoped to keep it all matching....

: (

John

In reply to Moacs:

you could argue that.

In reply to Moacs: ok so light swithces i can understand, and also door handles.... but putting a big electrical eyesaw on a lovely hill?!?!?!?!

Jess.x

In reply to The bandit: Is this coming from an area that cant secure access to vixen tor?

In reply to The bandit: Have to admit when I heard this on radio4 this morning my first thoughts were "april fool".

Dave

In reply to Moacs:
aAAARGH

...HEIGHT... I meant; sorry

In reply to Moacs:
Count yourself lucky. I've just had the same problem with an existing room! The power-points on opposite walls are now at different heights - and as soon as the certificate is signed they'll be changed. How pointless!!

In reply to The bandit: My climbing partner Nic has a brother with quite bad cerebal palsy he has been over most of Dartmoor - Nic just picks him up and carries him.

In reply to Little Brew:

"designed to raise questions about who really has access to Britain's wild landscapes."

you're clearly not in favour of open access for 'all' you don't believe for example that wheelchair users, people who can only walk with a frame and so on should be given access to the top of that rock equal to those people who can climb up it unaided

i'm not criticising that view by the way but it is your view (i'd say)

In reply to rich: you could argue that all rock faces should have this installed, for example the pinnacle t symonds yat has some lovely views from the top but only if you lead sever and are happy with the exposure?!? should we put a lift in?

i agree that people with a disability should be provided with the means to access all areas of the country, but does this in turn mean we sacrifice the view in favor of an ugly stair lift?!? or install a wooden walkway ramp? and in turn i cant get to the top of Everest due to the cot, but i want to see the view from the top of that, will someone do something about that for me? no, because it is not a practical thing to do! so in turn installing a powered stair lift to a rock face is not a practical solution!

Jess.x

In reply to rich:
For the benefit of the minority at the detriment to the majority and the environment.
Tough decision, slightly callous, but stick the ramp up yer bum.

Access for all where practical and does not defeat the object of the excercise.

In reply to The bandit:

http://www.wayswithwords.co.uk/pdf/VOICE.prog.06.pdf

"Alex Murdin explores notions
of place, power and politics in
new work based on
interventions in a nationalised
landscape, Dartmoor National
Park. Using the language of
campaigning, and engagement
with the planning system, his
installations propose that
possession is only 1/10th of the
law.
He explores the politicisation
of access and the rules and
values governing public
admission to ‘wild’ places.
Farming versus leisure;
romanticism versus access; who
wins in the new battle for the
landscape?"

I doubt this is actually a serious proposal. It seems more like performance art. Does he own the land? Does he have the money?

In reply to Little Brew: i'm not arguing with you particularly - the planning application is designed to make you think so i'm thinking and what i'm thinking is that 'we' do draw a line with the equal access thing and will probably always 'have' to do so - where the line is drawn and on what basis is an interesting question though no?

in a sense all us climber types are even more 'exclusive' seeking to restrict the access of able-bodied non-climbers from chunks of 'open-access' ground that just happen to be a bit steeper than some other bits - a via ferrata up the idwal slabs would be a marvelous thing for lots of people but there isn't one so most people never get to stand on that ledge . . .

In reply to Barrington:

>The power-points on opposite walls are now at different heights - and as soon as the certificate is signed they'll be changed. How pointless!!

Pointless having them at a reachable height or you trying to void the regulations?

You will have to put them back to the regs height if you move so learn to live with them, you may be glad you did should you suddenly have an illness that stops you getting down to low sockets.
Are you also going to lower your light switches to the same level in the pursuit of aesthetics?

In reply to The bandit:

Particularly daft when you see the streams of tourists who bothered walking in in the first place coming back with a "What was all that about?" look on their face. There are plenty of other views on the moor with access for all to enjoy.

Perhaps they should be doing something about the erosion to the path and encouraging people to visit other parts of the moor, like Vixen tour

Or maybe a conveyor belt for all?

In reply to rich:

sorry it seem you were! you are forgiven...am i?

i do agree with you though, where do you draw the line on access to all? and what do you define as access, being able to view the hill, or standing on top of it?!? oh and i have seen the ledge on Idwal, but had only my mom and dad with me the day i was there, so no climbing for me, as it is 30 years+ sisnc my dad climbed any where, and probably longer since he climbed at Idwal.

Jess.x

In reply to Stefan Lloyd: Sounds like he's wasting public money that could be spent on genuine access improvements in the name of his art / self publicity. One less textured interpretive panel / access stile / lowered kerb somewhere else, one more glass of chilled chablis at his next performance/ installation.

In reply to Little Brew:

not arguing for arguing sake just 'driving out discourse' as they say

i'll do better than forgiving - i'll absolve you completely

In reply to sutty:
My point is: why have half a room with one height switches & sockets when the rest of the house is different. It just looks weird. My Gran (who is wheel-chair bound)still can't get up the front path to my door, or get up the stairs to use 1 light switch & 2 sockets. I'm all for making things more accessable (which is easy when you're starting from scratch)but to apply the new regs in a piece-meal fashion is just not constructive. However, imagine the outcry if every private property in the country had to be rewired when put on the market! appologies if you are a Part B Inspector - everyone has to make a living...

In reply to rich: The point of my earlier post is that places like the top of Haytor are accesable to many disabled people if they realy want to get there and are prepared to make an effort. What is the point in making beautiful wild scenary "accessable to all" if in doing so you destroy the very wildness and beauty that they are coming to see?

In reply to rich:

Thank you =)

Jess.xxx

In reply to Mark Kemball:

i've never been there myself so to avoid any confusion what 'effort' would someone without any legs have to exert to get to the top?

In reply to Little Brew: 's'nothing . . .

In reply to Barrington:

Not an inspector but was an electrician who tried to include aesthetics into my installations, in spite of the regulations.
For example, the regs stated all bonding to radiators should be visible for inspection, but that makes a mess in a bathroom and was not acceptable to well heeled customers so we used to have two lots of bonding fitted, one out of sight and one fitted till the inspector had checked it, and then removed aftrwards, similar to what you plan. This was IOM of course, the board do all the inspections there.
I have fitted sockets at 18" for years as it is easier than having them at just above skirting level, or even 2" above floor level as I have seen in some old installations. When you explain why you do it most people are happy, and they still fit behind furniture if needs be.

My pet hates are modern rules that mean obtrusive exit signs and fire alarm detectors that do not match the fabric of the building, it is time that there was variance in fonts etc as long as they are legible, and do the job intended.

In reply to rich:


It's a walk on slabby granite. In some places, steps have been hewn into the rock. It is steep and exposed enough that I was a bit worried about my dogs running around on it.

In reply to majormajormajormajor:

Isn't that Vandal and Anne?

In reply to The bandit:

apart from anything, i thought we'd erradicated polio in this country and most of the world!? Unless his father has had it for a long time?

In reply to JR: There are plenty of people around in the UK who had polio as children.

In reply to JR: didn't Ian Dury have childhood polio? It's one of those diseases that typically you got in childhood and left you with a disability. Quite often you would partially "recover" but have problems recur in later life (quite a complex phenomenon, IIRC) I think his dad is probably old enough to have got it in childhood.

In reply to rich:

Well, a reasonably rugged wheelchair would get you to the base of the Tor. To get to the top, you would need an adventurous spirit and a couple of sure footed fairly strong mates. Sure this is going to be hard work, but one would then have a feeling of achievment.

In reply to rich:

>i've never been there myself so to avoid any confusion what 'effort' would someone without any legs have to exert to get to the top?

Dunno but a fiver says it would be less effort than Doug Scott had to exert to get down off the Ogre.

jcm

In reply to Barrington:

They did not have to be put at new heights. It is allowable to match existing. Complete rewires and new builds are a different matter.
Feel free to ask if you need any advice.

In reply to part P sparky:

I would have thought so as well but not being up to date with building regs now did not wish to say that.

In reply to Mark Kemball: i can't remember what i was saying yesetrday now and i'm too weary to try to recall it - i'd spend no effort trying to argue that there shold be 'equal' access to everwhere but i still think that exploring the edges of where equal/open etc. access should stop and how we define it and what the way we define it says about the way we thinking about the wider issues is quite interesting

johncox: almost certainly - that was grim reading

In reply to The bandit:

"Alex Murdin explores notions
of place, power and politics in
new work based on
interventions in a nationalised
landscape, Dartmoor National
Park. Using the language of
campaigning, and engagement
with the planning system, his
installations propose that
possession is only 1/10th of the
law.
He explores the politicisation
of access and the rules and
values governing public
admission to ‘wild’ places.
Farming versus leisure;
romanticism versus access; who
wins in the new battle for the
landscape?"

So he can't paint, then?

In reply to The bandit:

If building regs insist that all light switches have to be at a certain height for wheelchair access, can't you as the owner insist that all wheelchairs must have large enough wheels or booster cushions so that the inmates can reach 'normal' heights. (cynical brain)
or
what about handing out a short stick so that the light switches can be turned on that way?

This seems a little crazy- next the argument will be that the bulbs should be no more than 3ft off the floor so that they can be changed by people in wheelchairs

AAAAAGGGHHH

Dave

In reply to dave_strachan:

Conversely, as all buildings sre supposed to have disabled toilets as well as ordinary ones, why not nail up all the ordinary ones to save them more money?

Fancy a pint, no toilets I am afraid sir, DDa you see and we are to mean to fit one decent cubicle.

Nice sound system and plasma TV, umbrellas outside, wild and wacky ball pool to keep the kids happy.

GGRRRRHHH

In reply to Mark Kemball: met him at the last vixon tor trespass! He sandbagged me on some horrific boulder problem, which his brother found very amusing!

In reply to The bandit:

What a f**king eyesore that wolud be!

Saying that it would be kinda fun.

And save walking up...