UKC

The OutDoor Show claims that 40% of climbers are women. The BMC have seen a 10% increase in women climbers in the last six years.

More in the news.

http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

excellent - there more there is the more there will be. the frequently testosterone-soaked world of climbing can be a bit off-putting for many girlies that arent at the top of the gaem and competing with the men, or like me have no interest in competing, just enjoy the sport!

In reply to hebe:

but when the percentage of woman climbers will get to a certain ammount, it will mean men look at climbing and think "wow look at all those girls, we got to do that to" and then loads of men will start climbing and the percentage will drop again.

In reply to hebe:
just about eveybody i climb with just now is a woman.... ie mostly you

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
Interesting that the BMC puts the number of women climbers at 25% and teh Outdoor Show puts it at 40%. That's quite a big disparity. I wonder if that means that women don't join the BMC as much as men, for whatever reason. I wonder how the Outdoor Show got its figures... if based on sales it may not accurately reflect participation I suppose.

In reply to gingerkate:

then BMC equates to joing a climbing "club"
the Outdoors Show equates to shopping

that might explain the disparity in nr's

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

What's the point of doing these surveys (I mean other than ensuring the BMC continues to get funding)? Surely they should be finding whether the system is fair to women rather than looking how many there actually are.

My oft quoted example is that you're not going to get many Muslims doing a wine making course, but that doesn't mean that the course providers are racist or doing anything wrong, it just means that there's not many Muslims that would want to do a wine making course. As long as the procedures etc are fair and they're not being discrimaneted against then surely everything is OK. Whats to be gained by finding out the actual numbers from various group partaking?

I'll get down of my soap box now!

In reply to martin riddell:

This is what I meant by my last post - just getting the numbers tell us nothing about why the disparity is there which is surely more important.

In reply to dpmUK:

also doesn't tell you if these women are playmate lookalikes which is also just as important ;0

In reply to dpmUK:
Ha!... you don't know many Russian Muslims I take it

But yes, point taken. I vaguely remember something about some funding that's dependent on being seen to be equally open to all, so I think you'll be right that that is teh motivation.

In reply to hebe:

<hijack> You managing to get out? Done any mountain routes yet?

In reply to gingerkate:
Hi-
It does seem that there are more girls out in the hills. It used to be I was the only female at alpine huts (great odds if you're a single lady, tho) But now there are a few more women out on big alpine rock and ice routes, whereas five years ago it was really rare.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
What the hell... might as well ask how many people with ginger hair climb... and anyway, the crags are already overcrowded (please, no politically correct rejoiners).

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

<rubs hands together>
p

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
do they have the percentage of hotties?

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:


Cool. So now can I get a pink bouldering mat?

Surely the number of women cimbers has risen because the number of actual climbers as a whole has risen. With more people activly taking part is it so amazing that some of them are women?

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

It would be intresting to see what the break down of groups the women climbers belong to:

Alpine
Trad/Single
Trad/Multi
Sport
Bouldering
Indoor/lead
Indoor/TR

In reply to Ian: Yes... 0.04%

In reply to Aimee:
It's talking about % of women compared to % of men. And as usual, they're muddling up % with percentage points. It's way more than a 10% increase.

If you click on the link you'll find it's actually up from 16% to 25%, ie 9 percentage points. An increase of 56% if I've done the sum right.

This is the relevant bit:
"In terms of the male/female split, this is now 72% male, 25% female (3% did not answer).
Interestingly, this shows a 10% difference from the previous survey in 2000 that recorded
82% male, 16% female."

In reply to Flatlander:

Hi endlesswinter,

I run Mountaingirl, so we have some pretty decent info on what numbers of female climbers are climbing ice/rock etc.

About 25% of the climbers in the UK are female, so its actually quite a lot. We've found that Sport and Indoor are the most popular areas, next is bouldering, then Trad single and multipitch are next in popularity, partly as there are some beginners who haven't made the move outdoors yet or are still learning...and alpinsim/mountaineering and ice climbing are smaller but are also the most quickly growing areas, which is pretty cool. (I heard that in canada the number of female ice climbers is growing 200% each year, and there are already a lot of them!)

A lot of female climbers (about 70%) told us that they wanted to start ice climbing or alpine climbing but were looking for a 'way in' to this type of climbing. And, yes, the overall percentage of female climbers is growing, but an even higher percentage of females are climbing more committing and bigger alpine stuff all the time, so it's really changing from even 5 years ago. Hope that helps a little!

Louise Alexander

In reply to Beaver:
check out this article, it is quite good-
"More women climbing Ice"
http://travel.msn.com/Guides/article.aspx?cp-documentid=345271

In reply to heidimountaingirl:

Thats pretty cool, I know three years ago when I was ice climbing in Banff there was still only a few women out there but they where very good! Intresting to find out it has boomed lately. Myself, I have been going down hill with my ice since I moved here :P

In reply to heidimountaingirl:

Louisa you have some mail!

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: I also noted that they said most climbers were 'male white and christsian' - i am suprised at this as i know very few christian climbers- find i hard to believe 'most' are... any thought anyone? or is this just people ticking the box if celebrate chrismas?

kate (female, white, 25-45, non vegitarian, non faith based climber)

In reply to Flatlander:

Do I get extra points for belonging to them all?

In reply to Flatlander:

um, no it wouldn't.... stop being a geek

In reply to heidimountaingirl:



That's also the the problem for under 18s trying to get into climbing, from my experience. When I decided I wanted to get into climbing (aged 16), there were no clubs I could find, and any courses (even indoor) were much more expensive than I could afford. I was luck in that I managed to convince my dad to learn to climb too, and he paid for it. But I know lots of under 18s who want to learn to climb, but can't as clubs won't take them and they can't afford courses. So this is people who want to learn being, in effect, turned away.

I know I'm not the only under 18 on this forum that's had trouble going climbing, either (I have finally managed to get climbing on real rock now, though :-D ).

In reply to heidimountaingirl:

Louise

I'm organising the BMC Alpine Meet this year, from 6th to 20th August in Saas Grund.

Regarding the proportion of women attending, almost half on the taught courses are women, and about a third of the people coming for the meet only are women.

The coures were closed back in March, but people can still register for the meet if they want.

We hope that it's a success this year, and that we can run one next year.

Jon Garside
BMC / MLTE Training Officer
jon@thebmc.co.uk
0161 438 3329

In reply to Jon Garside:

hello,

on that subject I've just sent you an email which I hope doesn't sound too strange.

In reply to CJD: Hope you got my reply. Jon

In reply to oooaaah:
Hi oooaaah-
That's too bad you had such a hard time. For us, our insurance policy actually does not allow us to have clients under 18, which is a shame. I know a lot of people under 18 that climb hard and are really motivated to get the chance to learn more. Look at Tyler Landman, he is pretty talented and awesome, and young, too (dammit, jealousy is never pretty.) I hope the only consolation to you, is that you've loads of years left in you for climbing, while the rest of us are getting our zimmer frames polished. Best of Luck!

In reply to Etak:

Yes, I noticed this too.

Seems a little unlikely to me!

Y.

In reply to oooaaah:

well its just as hard at hte other end of the scale. at least now you are 18 you can get loads of sponsored places on alpine courses. bummer is when you are over 25 and funds sources like Conville and others think you re not worth investing in, and the courses are still beyond my pocket! Ive taught myself with a little help from friends to lead rock, now teaching myself multipitch, and doing way too much soloing just to get out there for the experience (appaently the secret is not to fall, hmmm, succeeded so far). Alpine stuff is what i wanna get into but my contemporaries are way too expert and want soemone of equal standard, or are as novice as myself, and its not really soemthing i think i shoould be makin up as i go along. moan moan .........Any offers get in touch!

In reply to Yrmenlaf:

if you are white and have no faith. you become christian by default, didn't you know?

you want to get on some rock next week Y?

In reply to sasmojo:

I could do Monday or Wednesday. If Mrs. Y. can be persuaded to take my youngest to his martial arts:

Monday - I will be in South Shields, free to leave about 18:00

Wednesday - free to leave Darlo at 16:30

If Mrs. Y. cannot be so persuaded, I will be free in Durham from about 20:00

Y.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: earth to mick come in mick!! you still in the uk.

In reply to hebe: I totally agree with you, i don't climb hard grades, it's about being in the mountains and just completing the climb what ever the route!!!

In reply to oooaaah:
If you are under 18, have you looked at the Ice Angels courses run by Icicle: http://www.icicleUK.com/angels.html as they definately offer courses for all ages, and the prices are the best I have seen on the market at the mo. Don't know if there are any restrictions as to wot courses you can sign up for as a U18, but ask them.

In reply to heidimountaingirl:


LOL How did you arrive at that result?

- Have you gone out and counted climbers on the crags and classed them by gender? Or have you asked a sample population that is decidedly skewed in the direction of your own interest?

I ask that because you state that sport climbing is one of the two most popular forms of climbing in the UK. (Unless your first statement is disassociated from the second?). Yet in the UK there is a very small amount of sport climbing (Portland, N Wales Limestone, bits of Cheddar, small parts of the Peak, even smaller bits of Scotland, plus a few other places, none of them particularly extensive). Now I could be way wrong, but I'd hazard that the number of climbers on Stanage alone on a summer Sunday is roughly equal to the total climbing on all of these crags (and if not, then chuck in Burbage and Froggatt for good measure). Leaving, hmmmm - over 100 other Peak crags, the Lakes, Pembroke, Snowdonia, Cornwall, Devon, Northumberland, Yorkshire, most of Scotland, etc. etc. etc. to add to top of that. (All of which are very strongly trad dominated.)

So how does that make sport climbing more popular than trad in the UK? Or have you mixed the UK with world statistics and not made the distinction?

In reply to Snorkers McPorkers:

Probably meant that of the female climbers questioned, more are into Sport and Indoor than Trad etc

I don't climb sport, and I hate indoor climbing (it's OK if it's cold and wet outside, but generally I don't like it). I almost exclusively climb trad (single and multipitch, roadside and mountain) and have done some mountaineering and want to do more. However, except one recent addition to my circle of climbing friends, all those I climb with are male.

in the UK there is a very small amount of sport climbing (Portland, N Wales Limestone, bits of Cheddar, small parts of the Peak, even smaller bits of Scotland, plus a few other places, none of them particularly extensive).

Uh, what about the best crags in Europe (in some people's opinions anyway!) Kilnsey, Malham and Goredale, not to mention all the other great, bolted, Yorkshire limestone crags? There are always tons of women at Kilnsey and Malham. probably only about 25% at any given time though.

In reply to Naomi Buys:

Yeah, point certainly taken, but that's a small number of crags with, as you say, 25% max female climbers on them. Also, although grade hasn't been mentioned, they're generally reasonably hard crags, so I'd say that the balance of F:M may be a bit different to that in the general masses (just a hypothesis....).

Sorry to cause offence to Yorkshire, which I'd agree has some of the UK's biggest and best sport crags. (I admit, yes - I forgot! But I also missed parts of Swanage, Llanymynech, Lakes slate and that viaduct near Durham with the bolts on its underside (if it's still standing), etc., etc., but it was only intended to give a general picture of how I couldn't see the original statement as representative of the wider population of UK climbers. It sounded more like the result of a survey conducted at a London climbing wall than one based on true participation numbers.

In reply to Snorkers McPorkers:

I know what you mean. I reckon female climbers operating at the lower grades seem to prefer trad more, mainly because the sport in this country tends to be quite hardcore, also because it is great fun and an adventurous day out! But there are loads of women climbing hard who prefer sport because the equivalent grades on trad are v.v. serious and potentially leg-breaking... there are ALWAYS exceptions to every rule though!

In reply to Snorkers McPorkers:



There are several sources for such figures; BMC, UKClimbing.com survey, She Climbs in the US, the outddoor trade organisations...

40% seems very high....20-30% seems reasonable

In reply to Snorkers McPorkers:
Why are you assuming all these uk female sports climbers are sports climbing in the uk???
All my female climbing mates take as frequent holidays as poss to spain, kalymnos, france etc etc... they climb as much abroad as they do here.

Btw, it'd be a mistake to assume that proportions of male to female climbers on the crag (any crag) necessarily reflected the proportion of male to female climbers in the UK, because that would only be true if male and female climbers spent on average equal amounts of time climbing. The latter is unlikely to be true, given that stats for leisure time always show men as having on average more hours leisure time than women.

In reply to gingerkate:

So you're suggesting that there's a massive population of British female climbers who we don't see on UK crags, who climb sport only, that somehow balances up the number of trad climbers out every weekend?

Frankly, I think not.

In reply to Snorkers McPorkers:
No, I'm just suggesting that a BMC survey of several thousand (?) climbers is more likely to accurately reflect numbers of UK women climbing than counting women on a crag, and pointing out why there may be an apparent discrepancy between the figures.

In reply to gingerkate:

Not disputing that. The numbers of women climbing wasn't an issue. To ascertain that you would need first to settle the tedious discussion of 'what is a climber'. Read the thread...you should see what I mean. The point I was trying to make (reasonably clearly, I hoped, but then it is pretty hot up here) was that I can't see how anyone can say that in the UK sport climbing is more popular than trad. It looked like a misuse of statistics (extrapolating the results from an unknown sample population to the entire UK), to me.

In reply to Snorkers McPorkers:
Oh, right, I probably only read half of what you put... I'll blame the heat as well
In answer to your point then, don't know, would need to look at the stats. But two things are getting muddled, and that was what I was trying to highlight. There's numbers of climbers, and what climbing they say they do, and there's the amount of climbing that goes on, and what sort it is, and whilst those two are connected they really are not the same thing. Because some climbers climb once a month, and some climbers climb nearly every day. So I can't see how anyone could argue with you that UK trad climbing happens more than UK sports climbing (assuming they're not counting indoors in with sports??), but that doesn't mean there might not be huge numbers of climbers who define themselves as sports climbers... even in a place like the UK with not that much sports climbing.

But if the stats are gathered in shops (?) there's an inbuilt bias already. I'd expect the BMC stats to more accurately reflect things. But tehn the BMC stats will be skewed too.

Anyway, who cares?
(I'm just going bonkers as I've not climbed enough of late.)

In reply to gingerkate:

Yeah, you're right, it's not worth it today....!

Buuuuuut.....although the stat that women have less leisure time than men is surely true for the bulk population, what percentage of the climbing population are parents? Not that many (yourself being one I believe). I suspect that the majority of women who have less leisure time in the UK are parents, as more women look after their kids at home than men....hence if you chop off all parents from the stat, what's left? Probably a closer demographic of the likely climbing population.

Extrapolating dangerously, for interest - some foggy statistic comes to mind that women represent the majority of teachers in the UK (especially in primary schools). Teachers get a lot of holiday. A good number of climbers are teachers....ergo there's a possibility that amongst the general climbing population, women may actually have slightly more leisure time than men.....the buggers!!

With that I shall retire to my Water Balance Calculations!

In reply to Snorkers McPorkers:

Was last week at the Envers hut: 4 women out of roughly 30 climbers (and most routes there are rock), was et the Dalmazzi hut: one woman - me - out of 20 climbers, was at the Orny hut: 2 women out of 20 climbers + a bunch of schoolkids.......This is no statistics, just what I see up in the mountains.

In reply to francoisecall:

Was that a reply to me?.....

In reply to Snorkers McPorkers:
Yeah, you're right, I'm just bitter and twisted as I'm a climbing mum and I currently have no climbing time, grrr...

Anyway... I was just using the leisure time thing as an example of the way in which, just because two people both do an activity, you can't conclude they do it equally much. Stuff the gender thing for a moment. You must have mates who climb nearly every evening? And mates who only climb once a month? So you see, any difference in choice of climbing type between such diverse climbers is going to make a huge difference to what climbing appears to be most popular. Then bear in mind that sports is more accessible <shrug>... and you can see that any stats on what type of climber someone mainly considers themself are going to have bugger all relation to which UK crags have most activity.

I'd not be at all surprised if principly indoor climbers were getting counted as sports, too.

In reply to gingerkate:

For a horrible moment I thought you were saying that indoor climbers have principles....<sniggers>

In reply to Snorkers McPorkers:

The readership survey at UKC last year backs that up, also see:

http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/graphs.html

Also trad guidebooks sell in greater numbers than sport.

As an aside, but related, mainland European gear companies who produce trad gear love the UK because so many climbers climb trad.

Mick

In reply to Snorkers McPorkers:

The vast majority of climbers in the UK are 'indoor climbers' especially in the UK winter when it is wet and cold.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com and Snorkers:
It's only just dawned on me what this 'sports climbing more popular than trad' thing means. Well, I suspect so anyway. I'm guessing that in the surveys people are asked 'do you climb sports?' and 'do you climb trad?' etc ... but that they are allowed to tick as many boxes as apply.

If you think about it, that would inevitably get sports coming ahead of trad. Because whilst there is a significant contingent of people who only climb sports and never trad, people who climb trad and never ever sports are rare beasties.

(On the other hand, if you asked people 'what is your favourite sort of climbing?' then ignore what I've just said...)

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

Dear Mick

I have noticed that as well, well they climb like "indoor climbers" when they come to Scotland for real winter climbing.

Norrie

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

One of those is me. :P

I love it when I go climbing and actually spot another female there. (Not often). One of these days I will drag one or two of my female friends onto a crag and get them addicted.



S.

In reply to saph:

There again I was at Wimberry a few weeks ago, midweek. As we walked through the boulders, 3 males.....4 women boulders (no blokes) were leaving the boulders.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

that should be four women boulderers (or female climbers who boulder)............

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

It is worth pointing out that the Outdoor Show is in Germany. As a occasional resident of Holland and a frequent user of indoor walls while I am there (putting aside the arguments over what is climbing), my observation of climbing walls and their users is that:
The walls are of a far higher quality to UK (size, design, routes, customer facilities and overall user experience).
Indoor climbing walls are used as an altenative to traditional gyms for recreation/fitness and so many users never climb outside.
The participation by females is approaching 50%. I felt I had a duty to monitor this.

regards

Pete

In reply to petealdwinckle:
I'd have thought participation at the wall I use is around 50%. I've never actually totted up numbers though, and I tend to be down at quiet times, and it may well be that when it's heaving of a winter evening there are a lot more blokes. But certainly, there are a lot of women use it now, and noticeably more women than six years ago when I first climbed there.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:


Yey to female climbers/boulderers. ^^