UKC

One of the UK's most prolific and accomplished all-round women climbers hits form.

More in the news:

http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
She certainly is an awesome climber.
:0)

In reply to octopus: Typical Rocktalk schoolboy remark, and not even funny.

What amazes me most about Lucy is that she has maintained the very highest standard for such a long time - she must have been Britain's best woman climber for close to 15 years now which is an amazing career for a top sports person.

In reply to AlisonC:
Thats a pretty impressive record for any sport, there's not many who can say they've been at the top of their game for that long.

In reply to AlisonC:

Yeah, Lucy is fabulous. I was involved making a film with her about 4 years ago (on Flying Buttress Direct). She made it look, rather unsurprisingly, about V Diff, but done with superbly flowing gymnastic style.

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:


Yeah, sure, that's like us looking 'superbly flowing' on some vdiff!

In reply to AlisonC:

Its a brilliant achievement by Lucy but also a bit sad that her crown hasn't really been under threat - it would be good to see a few others in the UK consistantly at that level.

In reply to GrahamD:

At least three women in the news this week who are climbing hard sport routes: Karin Magog, Dalvinder Sohdi and Alison Martindale

http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/older.html?date=200608

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: Yep. Not seen that in the UK in the (shortish) time I've been climbing.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: >At least three women in the news this week who are climbing hard sport routes: Karin Magog, Dalvinder Sohdi and Alison Martindale

True, and well done to all of them but I'm sure they would all forgive me for saying that they are not exactly spring chickens. What's happened to the next generation ? Where are the Gemma's / Emma's and Katie's we heard so much about just a couple of years ago ?

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

All I can go by is the magazine / UKC coverage, but the only name which seems to have consistantly cropped up over the last few years has been Lucy's. Of course I've seen the others' names now and again but nowhere near as much. It may be just a problem with magazines and maybe Lucy hasn't been as pre-eminent as it appears - you are in touch with the 'news' far more than I am.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:


That's true Mick but without wanting to belittle those women's achievements (which are fantastic) really there is no one else in Lucy's class - doing an 8a or 8a+ project after days or weeks of work is NOT the same thing as 8a on-sight or second go, and as far as I know no one except Glenda Huxter has come close to what Lucy's achieved on trad routes.

What I find puzzling is how few new names there are in British women's climbing - Lucy, Karin and Dalvinder were around many many years ago when I was doing leading and bouldering comps in the UK! (That was at least 12-14 years ago).

In reply to AlisonC:

Hi Alison,

I wasn't making a comparison. All I said that there are other women climbing well.....some we never hear of.

Yes, Lucy is outstanding in several disciplines...world class. I hope she is doing well and making a living out of climbing.

Mick

In reply to Tom Randall - Lattice Training:

Yes great stuff regarding going for Mecca and Big Issue (together with everything else she has done). All the best wishes to her!!

In reply to The sharp end:

...apolgies for the post deletion there, the video that was linked to was for promotional purposes only and not for general release.

However Lucy has assured us that she will be now working on her own dedicated website.

Apologies,

Mick

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

Thanks Mick.

Really look forward to seeing the website!!!

Lucy's real brilliance comes in her ability to climb hard across various disciplines. However, as mentioned above, it's sad that her sport resume, which is not exactly cutting edge on the world stage, seems in no way threatened by pretty much any other British women. As I mentioned a week or so ago, a young friend of mine who is coached by my climbing partner has just done 8a+, usually ticks 7c/7c+ in a couple of tries and she's 17. None of you know anything about this, because she's Canadian. In France or Spain, this would not be particularly big news.

I'm not trying to take anything away from what Lucy's doing, but it would be nice to see more young female sport talent in the UK.

In reply to Dom Orsler: Her on-sight sport climbing "resume" is pretty impressive. She's on-sighting 7c+ regularly and close to 8a (if not there already). Only a small number of European women are on-sighting 8a with any degree of regularity.

My impression is that Lucy isn't a natural redpointer/ boulderer, which makes 8b even more impressive (I remember competing against her in bouldering comps years ago; she's got fabulous stamina and an enviable ability to read rock, but she's not naturally powerful).

In reply to Dom Orsler:

Lucy onsights 8a. That ain't far behind the worlds leading women.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

Ah yes!!! I got to see something I shoulnd't have - ooh, how satisfying...

Was my post deleted because I referenced to the contents of the video?

Do you know what? - I also found out the "TRUTH" behind the whole Divided Years grading thing the other day. Better keep my mouth shut though...

In reply to Dom Orsler: You should have a cut and paste section of text for your standard "UK climbers are crap compared to everyone else"; it would save you the effort of typing it in everytime.

In reply to AlisonC:

It's just worth noting that Lucy climbs full time. and has done so for a long time, with a significant portion spent abroad. All of the other women climbing hard in this country hold down more or less full time jobs, so it's not so surprising to me that no one is quite at Lucy's level (although Karin is pretty close on most fronts).

It's very difficult to make any sort of a living through climbing. Lucy made the decision to climb full time a long time ago, and I know has struggled at times to make it work for her. It was a brave thing to do, but with her committment and drive she's cracked it. However there would not be enough sponsership available in this country for every woman who showed any promise to give up the day job, focus on their climbing, and still be able to afford the numerous trips abroad, the climbing wall entry fees etc. etc. I recognise that this situation has never held back the boys, but we women are a long way behind them at the moment, for whatever reason (a debate for another time which has already been comprehensively discussed in these forums).

Lucy would be the first to admit that she would find it very difficult to work full time and maintain her current form. Until others discover a way to make full time climbing work for them (and it's better to embark on this when you're younger rather than older I feel)I think Lucy's position is relatively safe. Having said that, I continue to be hugely impressed by Lucy's achievements, and indeed by the achievemnts of all the other women out there doing their thing - some of whom are happy to linger in obscurity through their own choice.

Regarding coverage of women climbers in the media - of course Lucy will actively seek out exposure, meaning we'll be seeing alot of her. That's her job. It's how she earns a living. As mentioned previously, most of the other female climbers receive minimal sponsership, and earn their money in other ways, making it less vital to have photos in the mags, websites, news articles etc. Also they are less likely to have the time to go on photoshoots. It doesn't mean that no one else out there is pushing themselves, just that you might not know about it.

As for Mecca - if anyone can do it you can Lu!! Look forward to hearing about, or maybe witnessing the first female ascent...

In reply to shiv: Some very valid points, however it still doesn't really answer the question of why there aren't any YOUNG climbers capable of giving Lucy a run for her money (Karin was already one of the UK's top woman sport climbers when I left the UK getting on for a decade ago!).

The best female sport climber in France (Charlotte Durif) is still in full-time education and in France that really does mean a lot of hours spent in front of schoolbooks. She is on-sighting 8b.

I wonder if part of the problem is that the best British women are concentrating more on bouldering?

In reply to AlisonC: PS: I hope my posts don't come over as being too cynical. I am genuinely puzzled as to why Britain isn't producing more top women climbers especially given that there are a number of men operating at the very top level (both trad and sport) - so it's hard to argue that the weather and the relative lack of good sports climbing venues are the problem.

btw Shiv, good luck with your year off.

In reply to AlisonC:

Isn't is because there's no culture/scene here compared to e.g. France? We have so few women climbers supporting each other and so their potential has been limited? Lucy has had to do it on her own. She's gone for it with all the risks of perhaps not being able to make ends meet.

Maybe women are more risk averse to the difficulty of being a full-timer?

I'm not sure about the 'younger generation' of women climbers, but perhaps they can't see value in pursuing a full-time climbing career?

As Shiv says, it's about having the time (as well as the talent, dedication, imagination and belief).

Creamer has all of the above, which is very, very rare in men or women.

I can only really think of McClure, Macleod and Creamer currently who seem to be reaching their true potential? They're putting the time in and realise climbing is about more than being 'strong'.

In reply to AlisonC:

I guess in France there is much greater access to sport routes at all grades throughout the year. Apart from indoor climbing walls, which don't really prepare you for the great outdoors, sport climbing in this country as you know starts at about 7a/7b for the most part, is not particularly accessible, tends to be powerful and bouldery, is seasonal and is severely limited by conditions and weather. It's not really an environment condusive to young people working through the grades. (I know from speaking to parents with extemely keen and talented children) There are precious little pure stamina routes around at reasonable grades with no desperately hard moves, which is where children would come into their own, lacking power. These are the kind of routes French children will have served their apprenticeship on. Also climbing is not as integerated into the culture as it is in Europe. Lucy did not get good at sport climbing in Britain...

As you've pointed out bouldering in this country is a much more realistic option, and there's no reason why we can't be every bit as good as our international counterparts in this arena. I don't see attention focussing on bouldering as being part of a problem. Bouldering is every bit as valid as sport or trad climbing. In fact British women are much closer to the top female bouldering standards than any are to international level sport climbing standards. I think this is often overlooked or forgotton - I have no idea why. Clare Murphy has bouldered Font 8a+. The hardest any woman has bouldered to date is Font 8b. Compare this with the gulf that exists between an 8b and a 9b sport route. I think it's commendable that women are now putting some effort into in area in which they will not be disadvantaged by living in Britain - the opposite in fact. I look forward to seeing them excel.

In reply to shiv:


I put a post in the other thread, but as this one is where all the climbers are....

The wisdom of the above statement shouldn't be overlooked. I hadn't thought of it before you mentioned it, but if you were to take a 12yr old kid and try and make them the best climber in the world you'd make sure the first 5 years or so would be general conditioning. Put them on very pumpy routes and give them a great fitness base to train on in later years. There aren't *any* sport routes of a suitable grade in britain. That fact alone probably explains why we don't produce many really talented sport climbers, men or women.


p.s If Lucy reads this - good luck on Mecca! That would be cutting edge - after all, Iker Pou failed on it (although he did only spend a day trying

In reply to Tom, UKC News Editor:

Still not convinced


Dunno. Most of the good women climbers I've seen in France have been climbing with male partners, just like in the UK. If there is a big women's scene here then I haven't seen it (not saying it doesn't exist, it's quite possible that I'm in the wrong place).

And there *are* role models for British women - it's just that by and large they're the same ones as were around 10 years ago, and I'm wondering why that is.


I'm not persuaded by the full-time thing either. Charlotte Durif, David Lama and Adam Ondra are school kids!!! Where are the British equivalents? (climbing indoors? bouldering?)

In reply to midgets of the world unite:

if she'd onsighted it...

In reply to Tom, UKC News Editor:

not forgetting Rich Simpson...

In reply to AlisonC:

Cheers for the good wishes Alison.

Regarding the above post. The British equivalents ARE climbing indoors and bouldering. Where else would they be? Raven Tor? Malham? Pen Trywn? The warm up at Raven Tor is Sardine. Anyone who's been on it will know it's a powerful, pumpy 7b+ with a very difficult reach dependent crux. Not exactly the route you'd throw your 8 yr old onto for an introduction to sport climbing outside.The young climbers I know need to have aquired a certain degree of power through bouldering and indoor training before they can even contemplate going on these routes. Any local sport crags with easy routes are generally not of a particularly high quality, and the onsighting potential is rapidly exausted.

I've bumped into a 15 yr old female member of the British Junior Team weight training at a local gym, desperate to build up the neccessary power to sport climb in this country. The committment is there, but I would suggest that in France it is much easier to build up fitness and strength on routes outside, as there are plenty of them. If this girl lived in France she would have already have spent a significant amount of time building up a base level of fitness and experience on sport routes outside. As it is she has beautiful technique, good stamina, drive and determination - all attributes which would get her up any number of hard routes in France. What she lacks is power - which is what you need to get you up the British routes. As a young woman this is a difficult thing to aquire. Her best sport climbing ticks by a long way have been abroad . What does this tell you?

Also she climbs/trains 5 or 6 times a week but obviously being at school, relies on her very committed parents to take her on holidays so she can attempt to realise her potential - not cheap (although she does receive very limited sponsership).

In reply to midgets of the world unite:



What about Portland 100's of 20-30 metre pump fests on a off vertical walls. Will this be where the next generation of youth talent will emerge from?

In reply to AlisonC:

I think you're right, good weather and access to a whole variety of sports climbs probably do make a difference. How likely is it in this country to get a full day of rock climbing on Boxing Day as I have grown acustom to do in France every year for the last few years?

As for the women scene etc, I think culturally, France is very different in inter-gender relations than anglo-saxon countries. Men and women mix more naturaly in social situations (in bars, sport etc) and therefore the need of a scene or a whole female support base is not there(look how well Destivelle has done in the macho world of alpinism). In the UK gender are lot more reluctant to mix (even 10 years on I'm still shocked when out in a mixed group how fast the gender groups separate with men talking to men and women to women), so it may be that to get any genuine support, there is a need for a whole female scene in this country, which is developping with the likes of Chicks with Picks, Girls on the rocks or other commically named groups.

A.-

In reply to Jon Greengrass:

The portland routes are never going to build anything like the fitness required to be world class. The ideal crag would probably be gently overhanging (like Ceuse or Tarn), have lots of routes up to 60m (like Ceuse or, say, Tarn) and have many routes in the 6c-7c range that satisfy the above criteria - like, for example, Ceuse (or Tarn). I imagine if we had a little whip round and payed for the most talented 12yr olds in the country to go live near Ceuse (or Tarn) for 8 years we'd have some world class climbers at the end of it.

In reply to Jonathan T:

"Dom Orsler: You should have a cut and paste section of text for your standard "UK climbers are crap compared to everyone else"; it would save you the effort of typing it in everytime."

Now that's an idea!

In reply to AlisonC:

I think you need more than just 'role models'. The yoofs on the continent have intensive coaching. It's interesting that they already have the mental capactity for sport climbing really hard. I suspect it's to do with their lack of fear and having no mental barriers in terms of what they feel they can achieve.

They might have school, but that's hardly work is it!

Agree with Shiv/Midget - we just don't have the right 'type' of sport route. But then isn't doing Mecca as your first F8b+ a lot harder than doing a big Spanish stamina fest?

Also, someone like Lynn Hill (and Lucy) have done a lot of different types of climbing in their careers. I still think this must count for a lot in terms of them reaching their potential in each discipline. Especially when women might be relying on optimal technique and not increased power to eek out that extra grade?

In reply to Ian about Rich Simpson. That's the point. The guy is already strong enough to redpoint 9a, but from what I have heard, he is nowhere near his potential limit. The point I was making about McClure/Creamer is that they've developed their 'raw material' to a higher level than most. McClure trains resting upside down from his toes - who else does that?!

In reply to A Longleat Boulderer:

"Lucy onsights 8a. That ain't far behind the worlds leading women".

Lucy HAS onsighted 8a. She doesn't onsight 8a (the inference being regularly). Big difference.

My point was and still is that I think it's a shame that UK women aren't doing better in sport.

A thousand apologies if this is the wrong thing to say or if it looks like I'm saying British climbers are crap (again).

Which, to anyone with even a modest IQ, I'm clearly not.

In reply to A Longleat Boulderer:

Oh, and as mentioned by Alison C, Durif onsights 8b. That IS a long way ahead of 8a. Ask anyone in the onsighting game. Two full grades at that level means a hell of a lot.

Ever sent 8a? Ever sent 8b? The difference feels enormous when it's your redpoint limit, let alone onsight.

In reply to ArnaudG:

" think culturally, France is very different in inter-gender relations than anglo-saxon countries"...etc

I think you have a very valid point there.

In reply to Jon Greengrass:

would any of the yoof of portland actualy drag themselves away from their hello mags and mini motor bikes long enough to give climbing a go?

In reply to ArnaudG:

You say women and men mix more on the continent and (someone above) said that the good women climbers in Europe climb with men. And Lucy has always climbed with men. So maybe it has actually got little to do with the small women's scene in the UK and more about women being held back by domineering British men?

Check out this recent interview with Creamer. She hints at this:
http://onlineclimbingcoach.blogspot.com/2006/08/lucy-creamer-interview.html

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

Personally i think it has a lot to do with the culture of climbing in the uk and it's the culture that influences young climbers the most. There are a lot of young climbers from countries with similar climbing in the uk that are tearing it up big time, places like Poland and The Netherlands to name but a few. These places hardly have world class sport climbing and bouldering destinations and still they produce the goods.

The difference there is that climbers in the uk set themselves low standards and it's that culture of low standards that filters down to the younger climbers.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
Have to say I thought Stu had it spot on, the UK just doesn't have the 'right sort' of sport routes. I know I climb like a girl and the lack of accessible sport routes pisses me off no end. But John's comment has made me think, there are young climbers, male and female, rippin' it up from countries at least as (sport route) impoverished as ours... Hmmm, maybe we're all just rubbish after all.

In reply to Tom, UKC News Editor:

Yep - again, I totally agree with this. You don't see many top end women climbing with women. Lisa Rands has been very vocal about this in the past and has, quite straighforwardly, stated that if she wants to improve and climb hard, she goes out with the guys. At Bishop, there are plenty of crowds of young guys regularly sending V11. Lisa (regularly) sends V11 and is among the best female boulderers in the world. In a crew of talented guys, though, she's just another guy working hard. That's how she improves.

Imagine if you hypothetically added a third sex, which, on average, was, on average, physically stronger, faster and climbed much harder than men. People like Simpson, Andrada, Usobiaga, etc would all be desperate to climb on a regular basis with the them. The rest of us would look silly trying to compete. If I was an extremely enthusiastic woman who really wanted to raise my grade and climb a lot harder, I would certainly try to 'embed' (ha!) myself within a crew of high grade men and climb like them.

In reply to John Cooke:

Sport in general, I'd say. Girls just aren't encouraged to play sport at school.

In reply to Tom, UKC News Editor:

Yes, I'd agree with that. Hence maybe the need for women to perform to be part of a female scene in this country and not in France. I have a couple of female climbing pals in this country and they concur to say that climbing in an all female team is completely different and IIRC a lot more relaxed.
I don't know how this compare to climbing in France, as I haven't climbed there consistantly for 10 years and most of my female climbing friends there have more or less given up climbing, but from my experience of living there I would guess that's less the case.

But what do I know.

A.-

In reply to Dom Orsler:

Lisa is talented and has strong motivation, she also climbs with her husband Wills who climbs V11.

I used to go out with both on their outdoor training days in Bishop - absolute mammoth days....multiple ascents and laps on V5-V8's.

Mick

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
difficult to fathom why a woman or a man doing a route of a certain grade can generate so much chat on the web. who do we climb for: is it for ourselves and our own sense of achievement(and i totally empathise with the fact that lucy creamer is probably dead chuffed at doing 8b)or is it for the rest of the climbing public and/or the sponsors and press?? sad if it's for the latter. don't even get embroiled in the debate about why young brit girls or lads aren't at the same level as their euro equivalents - sending teenagers to specialist climbing schools of excellence is truly pathetic and indulgent - there are young iraqis,israelis and lebanese dying every day, after all. please, let's get all this shit into some sort of global perspective and not get too bothered about whether lucy is world class or not - does it really matter?!

In reply to smit:

I would guess Smit that Lucy loves climbing, she loves it that much and its lifestyle that she decided to do it full-time.

To fund this lifestyle she decided to become a professional climber, to work for companies that make and sell climbing equipment....and hopefully sell her image to non-climbing companies where the real money is. On top of that she has to train, deal with injuries, and generally function as a normal human being and all that entails.

Climbing is her play and her job.

She puts the hours of work in just like all of us. Professional climbers just don't swan off all the time and climb for pleasure...they work hard doing slide shows, photo-shoots, shop visits, represent companies at trade shows, help in product development, sit in meetings, write articles, sort out her website...........

It's a proper job just like most of us have, no different.

What was that you said about, 'young iraqis,israelis and lebanese dying every day'.....did your forget those who needlesly die in the Sudan, in the USA, in England, Thailand, the Phillipines, Korea, China etc etc

Mick

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
No criticism of lucy creamer intended - it's a big wide world out there and lots of people make a comfortable living doing things far more dubious than being a pro climber. just bothered by the handwringing in the forum about why uk not producing climbers as good as some european countries - it really doesn't matter! no, hadn't forgotten about other oppressive regimes and underprivileged people, middle east is just topical at mo and illustrated the point i was trying to make about putting things into perspective. there is a link between how many resources we in the west command for our many indulgences and the poverty and injustices that go on elsewhere!

In reply to smit: If there was a prize for the most pretentious post on UKC, you'd be a strong contender for it.

In reply to Serpico:

I thought this advice of Lu's on the Climbing Coach blog made a lot of sense:
"I can’t think of one nugget. But I suppose things like:
• Try not to let other people tell you what’s best for you, only you know what works for you and your body.
• Don’t be afraid to experiment, even if it feels like one step forward two steps back at times. Get in there and fall off boulder problems and routes, it’s the only way to improve.
• Have the strength of your convictions. If you want to work out your own way to do a move, do that. Find the inner confidence to tell your climbing partner to "shut up and mind their own business" (in the nicest possible way). What works for a 5’10” guy, will generally not work for a 5’2” girl.
• Girls, yes we are short, yes we are weaker. Unfortunately, that’s life, get over it. Try to work with what you’ve got. Get extra strong at locking off etc to gain height. There are ways round these things. But you do need to get stronger, if you want to push into the harder grades. We all know strength isn’t everything but it helps a lot.
• Finally, don’t let anybody tell you can’t do something, that’s solely your decision. Try to break the mould of deferring to men, be your own boss. I hope I don’t sound like a man hater because I’m absolutely not. But they will try to take charge of a situation, show them that you can look after yourself and your climbing needs. This is as much the fault of women as it is men. Be your own person.

In reply to smit:

Ha ha ha! Comedy post. How far is your head up your arse?

In reply to John Alcock:

http://onlineclimbingcoach.blogspot.com/2006/08/lucy-creamer-interview.html