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Equilibrium ...

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Can't find that article all about it ... trying to remember what font grade the crux gets...

Anybody know?
Hotbad Peteel 09 Oct 2006
In reply to A Longleat Boulderer:

e10 7b rings a bell
p
In reply to Hotbad Peteel:

E10 7a isn't it, Pete?

I wanted the font grade for the crux tho

Thanks anyway
 GCW 09 Oct 2006
In reply to A Longleat Boulderer:

Not sure but this is a good video

http://www.beardownproductions.co.uk/video.html
Anonymous 09 Oct 2006


font 7c+ ish
In reply to GCW:

Yeah seen it, it's bon isn't it ...
In reply to Anonymous:

Oh right, cheers
 andi_e 09 Oct 2006
In reply to A Longleat Boulderer: I heard 7c+/V10
 GCW 09 Oct 2006
In reply to A Longleat Boulderer:

Bentley gave if French 8b if that helps?
Hotbad Peteel 09 Oct 2006
In reply to A Longleat Boulderer:
> (In reply to Hotbad Peteel)
>
> E10 7a isn't it, Pete?
>
> I wanted the font grade for the crux tho
>
> Thanks anyway

whoops, my selective sight totally missed the word 'font'. thought it was a strange question
p
In reply to All:

Cheers guys, V10 thirty feet off the deck with little protection. What a route.
 andi_e 09 Oct 2006
In reply to A Longleat Boulderer: Not as good as, say, a V11 40 feet of the deck though. Not that one exists (cough SOC)
In reply to andi_e:
> (In reply to A Longleat Boulderer) Not as good as, say, a V11 40 feet of the deck though. Not that one exists (cough SOC)

I dunno, Sam Whittakers (rumoured) E12 project should be something like that ...
 Alex@home 09 Oct 2006
In reply to A Longleat Boulderer:

care to elaborate on the rumours?
In reply to Alex@home:

Words of Adam Long ... so probably quite accurate:

http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=204617&v=1#2990791
 andi_e 09 Oct 2006
In reply to A Longleat Boulderer: I think I know where it could possibly be, maybe, on an off chance.
 billy.granty 10 Oct 2006
In reply to A Longleat Boulderer: so if it's font 7C+ at the crux there must be a fair few people who could probably give it a fair go. if gresham took falls off it and didnt break much then it cant be too dangerous despite the E10 grade. in my very humble opinion routes that hard wihout protection shouldnt get an E grade as it seems to mean very little. the 7A tag should be more than enough to prove that falls are very likely for anyone amd that hard grit aretes seem to be protectionless anyway.

what confuses me is that something like divided years gets E10 but is apparently safe as houses just with big fall potential. how can the british grading system compare death threatening grit horrors with hard yet """relatively""" safe climbs like Divided years.
 Dave MacLeod 10 Oct 2006
In reply to billy.granty: Divided Years get E8. And no-one has fallen off the dangerous bit of Equilibrium yet. Given that previous falls from mid way through the crux involved ground brushing, it seems likely that a fall from the last couple of moves will involve splatting.
In reply to billy.granty:

I am right in the thinking that only Neil B, Neil G and Keen Yoof have done it ...

In reply to Dave MacLeod:

Does it interest you Dave? Any plans to get on it?
 billy.granty 10 Oct 2006
In reply to Dave MacLeod: so why did divided years get E10 originaly. was that just due to it being bloody hard with big falls and tricky gear placements.
 Adam Lincoln 10 Oct 2006
In reply to A Longleat Boulderer:

Correct.
 Adam Lincoln 10 Oct 2006
In reply to billy.granty:

It was due to the first ascentionist getting the grade slightly wrong.
 billy.granty 10 Oct 2006
In reply to Adam Lincoln: but that would be like someone putting up a climb that was vdiff and saying it was HS. or does the difficulty make grading extremely difficult. can someone explain what makes a climb E10 because id say it was something thats really dangerous but done properly it appears that that isnt always the case.
 Adam Lincoln 10 Oct 2006
In reply to billy.granty:

Doesnt have to be death. Look at Daves route rhapsody. Not entirely dangerous, long long falls which have ledge hitting potential. But stick hard.

I wouldnt make such a big thing about getting something two grades out. Its only a guide for future people who want to climb the route to go off.
 galpinos 10 Oct 2006
In reply to billy.granty:

The adjectival grade doesn't mean just how serious it is, it also takes into account how strenuous/sustained it is. Lots of hard moves back to back will push up the E grade. A route with, say, 4 7a moves back to back on it (sustaines) higher E grade than a route with just one 7a move (cruxy).
 Simon Caldwell 10 Oct 2006
In reply to billy.granty:
> but that would be like someone putting up a climb that was vdiff and saying it was HS

When HS was at the cutting edge and there were only a handful of people who could climb at that grade, there was similar uncertainty. Some of which lives on in the guidebooks of today
 GrahamD 10 Oct 2006
In reply to Adam Lincoln:

To be fair, with only 3 ascents, its hard to know where the concensus grade will end up. It might end up at E9.
 Adam Lincoln 10 Oct 2006
In reply to GrahamD:

Exactly
 billy.granty 10 Oct 2006
In reply to galpinos: thats put it a little clearer in my mind. thanks.
 Norrie Muir 10 Oct 2006
In reply to billy.granty:
> (In reply to Adam Lincoln) but that would be like someone putting up a climb that was vdiff and saying it was HS. or does the difficulty make grading extremely difficult.

Grading on FAs can be difficult, as it is not an exact science. People can get it "wrong" both ways.
 bluebrad 10 Oct 2006
In reply to GrahamD:

Equilibrium has had it's grade "confirmed" by the three ascentionists to date at E10 to onsight though so it more likely to stay at that than get downgraded.

Divided Years was under suspicion even before Dave Birkett did the second ascent and subsequently wouldn't get drawn on commenting about the grade but only saying what a decent line it was - something that Dave M also stressed while giving his reasons for the downgrade.

bluebrad
 stonewall 10 Oct 2006
In reply to bluebrad:

what about Dr Doolittle - has that had many (any) re-ascents ?
 Al Evans 10 Oct 2006
In reply to Norrie Muir: Like Ron Fawcett grading Directissima HVS on trad gear, it went up to E3 with bolt protection and has ended up subsequently as F6b.
 GrahamD 10 Oct 2006
In reply to stonewall:

Not as far as I know. Neither has Rewind.
Wingman@work 10 Oct 2006
In reply to A Longleat Boulderer:

why does everyone think E10 has to be dangerous....I keep reading people posting things like 'it's not quite E10 cause you'd only break your ankle falling off the crux'

if you had a safely protected trad route that was F8B or higher it would get a v. high E grad yet be (relatively speaking) fine to fall off.
 jkarran 10 Oct 2006
In reply to A Longleat Boulderer:

Who's the 'keen yoof' with the third ascent?

jk
 Adam Lincoln 10 Oct 2006
In reply to jkarran:

James Pearson
 stonewall 10 Oct 2006
In reply to GrahamD:

why don't they seem to get so much attention ?
 bluebrad 10 Oct 2006
In reply to stonewall:
> (In reply to GrahamD)
>
> why don't they seem to get so much attention ?

Dr Doolittle - it could be that it starts up one hard route and then traverses into another (Slab and Crack into One Step Beyond) whereas Equilibrium is a pure line in itself and it was the first grit E10 and has been "confirmed" at this grade.

Rewind is in the south west (cornwall I think) which makes it a bit of a distance to travel to attempt it on headpoint (or even onsight) but it could be conditions dependant or some other reason - I know next to nothing about this one to be honest.

The other E10 in the Peak District that hasn't been mentioned yet is Blind Vision at Froggat but given that the start of this is a Font 8B+ boulder problem (Slingshot) I would guess that most people would be more than happy to take that tick for the boulder problem and leave it at that.

bluebrad
 John Cooke 10 Oct 2006
In reply to bluebrad:
> (In reply to stonewall)
> [...]
>
> The other E10 in the Peak District that hasn't been mentioned yet is Blind Vision at Froggat but given that the start of this is a Font 8B+ boulder problem (Slingshot) I would guess that most people would be more than happy to take that tick for the boulder problem and leave it at that.
>

Except Slingshot is regarded as 8a these days, would still be a pretty good tick like!

 bluebrad 10 Oct 2006
In reply to John Cooke:

I was just going off the grade given in the Rockfax DB but regardless a pretty good tick as you say and still way beyond me.

bluebrad
 JR 10 Oct 2006
In reply to bluebrad:
> (In reply to John Cooke)
>
> I was just going off the grade given in the Rockfax DB but

which is V11 -> 8a

http://www.rockfax.com/databases/r.php?i=1466
 GrahamD 10 Oct 2006
In reply to bluebrad:


> Rewind is in the south west (cornwall I think) which makes it a bit of a distance to travel to attempt it on headpoint (or even onsight) but it could be conditions dependant or some other reason - I know next to nothing about this one to be honest.

That depends on where you think the good climbers live, does it not ? I suspect its death on a stick, though.
 John Cooke 10 Oct 2006
In reply to GrahamD:
> (In reply to bluebrad)
>
>
> Rewind is in the south west (cornwall I think) which makes it a bit of a distance to travel to attempt it on headpoint (or even onsight) but it could be conditions dependant or some other reason - I know next to nothing about this one to be honest.


I remember seeing a really cool photo of a route in Cornwall in one of the mags when i was a kid, think it was called The Human Skewer or something and it was E9, although i might be making that up :os Does anyone know anything about it?
 bluebrad 10 Oct 2006
In reply to JR:

Doh!! Obviously losing the plot here or more likely my eyesight... 8-)

In reply to GrahamD:

Didn't phrase that as well as I could have done did I...

bluebrad
 GrahamD 10 Oct 2006
In reply to John Cooke:

The climb itself doesn't look as impressive as the picture. Looks nails and death but it looks pretty dingy. I doubt anyone will really get inspired to stick their neck out on it (even Ken Palmer who seems to like downgrading Edwards routes ).

Its a shame Mark Edwards hasn't repeated other E9/10s around the country - that would certainly generate a bit more interest in his routes.
 John Cooke 10 Oct 2006
In reply to GrahamD:

Ah so it is called the Human Skewer then? Is it on the database at all? You don't know if the picture is online do you?
 Andy2 10 Oct 2006
In reply to John Cooke: It is in the Zawn Rinny area of Chair Ladder.
 Paz 10 Oct 2006

With Equilibrium, I reckon it was a classic case of grading by top rope(rs). Everyone else (it used to be traditional at this point for Rich Heap to write in to the mags quoting a long list of strong sheffield folk who'd failed on it) who'd been near it couldn't touch it, but they probably hadn't done much bouldering. Apart from Ben Moon of course for whom the route probably wasn't hard enough to be worth bothering with.
Then you've got Bentley comes along, who's worked his way up through the grades, done Parthian the hard way (placing the gear) and maybe
would've done Meshuga too if it wasn't for little scrotes lobbing stones, and finds it takes him a damn
site longer to climb than the E9 next to it. Then by the sounds of it, he wanted to shirk the issue, but everyone else in sheffield applies sport climbing logic and eggs him on a bit eventually persuading him to give it the big one oh in his swansong magazine article, and then everyone's happy and gets together for a big First Official On The Edge Gritstone E10!! party. Thankfuly this was before the days of redbull sponsorship in climbing. Neil seemed keen to do an E10. But James is one of the new generation of nails strong boulderers who would be able to down grade it. Afterall, if he can sketch around on that and if that's `only' E10, then he's probably capable of more by simply climbing smoothly. It's a shame really that whatsisface never took his investigations further about onsighting it.. .

In reply to John Cooke:

Human Skewer is an E9 at a zawn a bit left of Chair Ladder I think. Didn't Rewind get retro'd or something last year or did we just have a vote and a stink about it?
 Oli 10 Oct 2006
In reply to Paz:
>It's a shame really that whatsisface never took his investigations further about onsighting it.. .
>

Who wanted to onsight it?
 Andy2 10 Oct 2006
In reply to Paz:
>
> Didn't Rewind get retro'd or something last year or did we just have a vote and a stink about it?


The latter, I believe.
 GrahamD 10 Oct 2006
In reply to John Cooke:

I don't have a picture of it, but the route is clearly visible if you take the 'scramble' approach to the seal slab area of Chair Ladder.
 GrahamD 10 Oct 2006
In reply to Andy2:

Wasn't Rewind originally protected by a bolt as something else, bolt removed and reclimbed as Rewind ?
 Paz 10 Oct 2006
In reply to GrahamD:

I thought it was originally a full on sport route.
 GrahamD 10 Oct 2006
In reply to Paz:

Sorry - not a bolt but bolts. I didn't think it was many, though.
In reply to Paz:

Went to Cheddar today Paz .. used Mr Shunt on the Quarry project ...

ABOSOLUTELY NAILS. I could climb to the top from the second bolt, hardish moves to a dyno/massive reach. Could climb the start to the first bolt again at a hard but not rediculous grade, very crimpy. But the bit between bolt 1 and 2 is stupid. I don't think I have ever tried a move as hard as they felt. I couldn't even really hang the holds.

The clips are bordering on impossible, so I recon it will eventually go as a toprope boulder problem ... Font 8?
 Dave MacLeod 10 Oct 2006
I'm sure all these routes will get loads of repeats sometime, especially if headpointing comes back into fashion. I would love to try all those E10s that y'all mentioned, they look great. I wanted to travel round this summer and try the one in Cornwall and some other ones, but in the end had to stay home and work to make up for taking time off for doing Rhapsody. I might get a chance to get to the peak if I can get my driving license finally...

There's really not much point trying to pin down all the grades of these hard trad routes when they've had such few ascents. The best way is to go out and do them and then you get a much clearer picture. I'm sure there are stacks of folk capable of doing them but don't know it! It just takes a bit of persistence and they are in the bag.
 Oli 10 Oct 2006
In reply to Dave MacLeod: You can stay at my house if you want to come to the peak headpointing this winter!!

I agree that alot of people can do things that they previously imagined were impossible. I think over the summer, my climbing has improved dramatically from just getting on harder routes and trying to work them instead of sticking to just onsighting routes.

 Nick Beckett 11 Oct 2006
In reply to andi_e: surely thats coz it would be V12 or 13 then if its 40ft up!
In reply to Nick Beckett:

V grades don't take height into account. A V13 sequence is a V13 sequence no matter how high it is, or how dangerous the fall.

You are talking about font grades
Anonymous 11 Oct 2006
In reply to A Longleat Boulderer:

Font grades don't take height into account as "that feels like 7b+, but it's high so we'll give it 7c", instead, higher stuff feels harder as you can't work the moves, are intimidated etc. V grades supposedly don't consider this, but how would you know? If you have a highball V-grade the grader still has to climb up to the crux, and can't work the moves so it's gonna still feel harder and get a harder grade.
J-Pearson 11 Oct 2006
Here is my 2 peneth. Grades are a funny thing. They are always only a guide, yet many people seem to take them as gospel. They appear to be some peoples only driving force, as well as a means to bitch and belittle others achievements. Overall, in my opinion, people should not get too hung up on them.

Equilibrium is hard, and it is dangerous. Neil G's 9 falls were off the low crux, Neil B's fall was off just above this and he brushed the pads. There is another set of hard moves another meter or so up the arete with the last hard move being a slap to a good pocket way above where anyone has fallen off. I didn’t downgrade it purely because I didn’t think I needed to. It took me around 4 days effort (longer than any other Grit route so far), and felt like a step up, both physically and mentally from the other Grit routes I have done. I also chose not to use Bouldering pads as I feel that even a single pad, would make a huge difference to a fall from the upper arete. Granted, the climbing was technically a long way below my limit, but that doesn’t really mean anything in relation to the grade of the route. When I climb bold routes, I know there is very little chance of me falling off. Climbing at your limit, in a dangerous situation is pretty crazy and, forgetting about your own life, I think disrespectful to your friends and family, who may be left to pick up the pieces, literally.

As for the other proposed E10's:
I have not been on, or even seen in the flesh Dave’s hard routes north of the border, so cant comment on them. From pictures and video, they look hard.
I have looked at Divided years from the floor, and my friend has tried it, commenting that he thought it was probably E7/8, hardish but very safe. However, with all routes in mountain locations, the remoteness needs to be taken into account, when proposing a grade.
Breathless looks like quite tricky climbing. There is also a "new" peg near the top (apparently not there on the first ascent) which would make it slightly less bold. Again, this info comes from good friends; I have not actually been on the route.
Rewind used to be a sport route called Blue Sky Lightning (fr8a). It follows an obvious line of weakness through a large roof. Very suspect rock, with hard to place poor protection (sounds inviting doesn’t it!) Mark claims to have lead the route on pre-placed gear and then later on to have climbed the route ground up, placing all gear on lead. The only trustable gear comes near the top, falling before this will probably lead to a 90ft groundfall into boulders!!!
Dr Doolittle probably has not been repeated because it is a complete non-line. I tried it a few years ago, solely after the E10 experience (I was young and number hungry). The climbing is not that good with the line wandering all over the wall, almost like it takes the path of most resistance. The protection is also pretty good. Overall, it is probably a poor E8/9
BlindVision, is essentially, a V10 boulder problem, to a ledge (big enough to put your harness on, have a picnic, dance, sleep etc etc), to an E7. I cant see how this link-up could be considered any harder than E8ish. This has probably not been repeated since cold dry days are precious and there are far better lines to try.

Hopefully this will have answered a few questions, and no doubt created a few more. If anyone wants to contact me, you can email me through UKC or through my blog @ http://pearsonclimbing.blogspot.com

Take it easy

James
In reply to J-Pearson:
>Grades are a funny thing. They are always only a guide, yet many people seem to take them as gospel. They appear to be some peoples only driving force, as well as a means to bitch and belittle others achievements. Overall, in my opinion, people should not get too hung up on them.

Didn't mean to come across like that, James. I only asked as I had my first trip to grit a few weeks ago, accompanied by my able guide, Oli. I looked up at Equilibrium and it looks a beast of a line. I just wondered how hard it was - E10 7a means little to me. Dangerous V10 means a lot more!
 GrahamD 12 Oct 2006
In reply to J-Pearson:

Hi James, So whats next in the pipeline for you, then ?

> Rewind ...Very suspect rock, with hard to place poor protection ....falling before this will probably lead to a 90ft groundfall into boulders!!!

So will anyone bother to stick their neck out to repeat it ? It would be great (from a punter's perspective, of course)to see some of the Edwards routes getting the attention that other hard routes seem to be getting. Question Mark is the only one I can think with a second ascent.
 Paz 12 Oct 2006
In reply to A Longleat Boulderer:

You're on about the `8b'/ "9b!!!"/ E6 7a? At least it has holds. I think if you can climb that then you're more than entitled to pre clip the first two. Any more than that is probably taking the piss given how short the crag is.
 Paz 12 Oct 2006
In reply to GrahamD:

I think Ken Palmer's done the E8 next to it too (there's a photo in the guide with a funky heel hook) and possibly a fair few of the other more modestly graded ones that we don't know about.
Anonymous 12 Oct 2006
In reply to Paz:

That'd be Nick Dixon's route 'Pre-marital Tension' then?
 Paz 12 Oct 2006
In reply to Anonymous:

If you say so, name sounds about right. I just assumed it was also Mark's.
In reply to Paz:
> (In reply to A Longleat Boulderer)
>
> You're on about the `8b'/ "9b!!!"/ E6 7a?

E6 7b apparently. I recon its probably better to call it Font 8 something.

Also got on the project at Pride Evans. Far harder than Bursting. Ally recons it is similar to Revelations. Could take me a while!
 andi_e 13 Oct 2006
In reply to A Longleat Boulderer: F*ckin'ell, another e-barnie about some route! Chill yo.
 Nick Beckett 13 Oct 2006
In reply to A Longleat Boulderer: I thought they took into account fear! 40ft up I'd get a bit worried! think I read it in Yorkshire bourldering guide. Anybody else think they do?
 Stuart S 13 Oct 2006
In reply to Nick Beckett:

V grades originated in the States, where they did not take height into account.

The original system has been bastardised while being imported into the UK (eg V8+), so it's possible that upping the V grade for high cruxes has also happened. Pity.

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