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Clearing the overgrown routes at Tremadog is an on going project that requires help from you the climbers.
Mark Reeve reports.... http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/
Mark Reeve reports.... http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
Can't make it myself, but hats off to anyone who does make the effort. There is some superb climbing behind some of those brambles.
I can't help thinking that the best way to clear off some underclimbed routes is to provide a clear, modern (and starred) guidebook to the crag.
Can't make it myself, but hats off to anyone who does make the effort. There is some superb climbing behind some of those brambles.
I can't help thinking that the best way to clear off some underclimbed routes is to provide a clear, modern (and starred) guidebook to the crag.
In reply to GrahamD: We as climbers preach to the newcomers to the sport about making sure our participation does not affect the plant or animal diversity at popular crags, so shouldn't we allow for a little growth from indigenous plants?
If we produce a new guide book with route recommendations this will cause more people to visit these popular routes more and more which, in turn, will cause loss of plant life, erosion of the ground, polishing of the most popular routes and this may lead to resentment to those who climb there.
If we produce a new guide book with route recommendations this will cause more people to visit these popular routes more and more which, in turn, will cause loss of plant life, erosion of the ground, polishing of the most popular routes and this may lead to resentment to those who climb there.
In reply to anthonyecc:
I'm not sure this is true of Tremadog. Far too few routes are being done there to the detriment of those routes (1SITC for instance)and to the routes that are being neglected (hands up who has done Alcatraz, for instance ?).
My observation since the latest guide book came out is that this situation has got worse which is the opposite of the stated intent of the 'no star' system.
Rescuing a few more lines from brambles and ivy is not going to jeapordise the indiginous plants significantly, i wouldn't have thought.
Anyway, the original point is that if there is going to be a clean up (which it sounds like there is), it needs a decent guide to keep these routes clean or they will be under brambles again within a year.
I'm not sure this is true of Tremadog. Far too few routes are being done there to the detriment of those routes (1SITC for instance)and to the routes that are being neglected (hands up who has done Alcatraz, for instance ?).
My observation since the latest guide book came out is that this situation has got worse which is the opposite of the stated intent of the 'no star' system.
Rescuing a few more lines from brambles and ivy is not going to jeapordise the indiginous plants significantly, i wouldn't have thought.
Anyway, the original point is that if there is going to be a clean up (which it sounds like there is), it needs a decent guide to keep these routes clean or they will be under brambles again within a year.
In reply to GrahamD:
Agreed on all counts. Plus, a guidebook which actually helps newcomers find their chosen route (I have to admit I still get lost on occasion - which doesn't help when trying to find the more esoteric routes at Trem).
Agreed on all counts. Plus, a guidebook which actually helps newcomers find their chosen route (I have to admit I still get lost on occasion - which doesn't help when trying to find the more esoteric routes at Trem).
In reply to GrahamD: no stars was a nice idea but you are right that the efect is simpy for those who don't knwo the crag to just do the ultra-classics and assume that if they haven't heard of it it must be trash. more generous allocation of stars would help (with hindsight of course)
In reply to Tobias at Home: The starring of routes should be done by the individual climbing it i.e. they should be omitted from the book and let the individual decide if it is worthy of a star. I have climbed routes marked as 3 stars but i would hardly give it 1. Its all subjective.
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
Veg clearance is being done in line with conservation bodies advice. Yep, the current guide is inadequate, I think it was a worthwhile experiment not having stars, but it has failed. The well known classics are definately over used while many other routes hav become overgrown. Well known routes are suffering too, at the moment it is very taxing getting to the start of The Grasper for example and the first pitch looks a bit like a jungle. I'm really keen to open some of the lower grade routes though to take pressure of Xmas Curry which has, in my opinion, lost a star due to over use.
Anyway remember it's our crag, BMC owned, it's up to useto manage it. Be good to see you there
Mike Raine
Veg clearance is being done in line with conservation bodies advice. Yep, the current guide is inadequate, I think it was a worthwhile experiment not having stars, but it has failed. The well known classics are definately over used while many other routes hav become overgrown. Well known routes are suffering too, at the moment it is very taxing getting to the start of The Grasper for example and the first pitch looks a bit like a jungle. I'm really keen to open some of the lower grade routes though to take pressure of Xmas Curry which has, in my opinion, lost a star due to over use.
Anyway remember it's our crag, BMC owned, it's up to useto manage it. Be good to see you there
Mike Raine
In reply to Veronica:
I disagree Christmas Curry is a great route.
> (In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com)
Xmas Curry which has, in my opinion, lost a star due to over use.
I disagree Christmas Curry is a great route.
In reply to Tobias at Home:
I think that you'll find that quite a few of the routes given two and three stars in the previous edition of the guide are overgrown.
Perhaps it shows just how short sighted many climbers are when they queue for hours for a route that they have been told is good by a stranger when they could have a look only a few metres away at something else and maybe even get some climbing rather than queueing done.
As for the clean-up, this weekend is fully booked for me so I won't be able to attend.
All the best with it.
boB
I think that you'll find that quite a few of the routes given two and three stars in the previous edition of the guide are overgrown.
Perhaps it shows just how short sighted many climbers are when they queue for hours for a route that they have been told is good by a stranger when they could have a look only a few metres away at something else and maybe even get some climbing rather than queueing done.
As for the clean-up, this weekend is fully booked for me so I won't be able to attend.
All the best with it.
boB
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
A variation on the Field of Dreams principle....'if you build it they will come'.
Not sure if that will be the case ?
What's happening at Trem is symbolic of what's happening all over north Wales. Entire crags are being lost never mind routes.
Most climbers under 30 balk at trekking up to mountain crags carrying heavy sacs full of climbing equipment and spare clothing etc. Indoor walls,bouldering and sports climbing are the extent of their experience.
If a roadside crag like Tremadog can see half its routes disappear what hope is there for some rambling crag in the Carneddau !
It's an age thing. Only middle aged climbers now go outside of the star blessed honeypot areas. When we're dead the mountain crags will return to the ravens.
Some will say a good thing too.
A variation on the Field of Dreams principle....'if you build it they will come'.
Not sure if that will be the case ?
What's happening at Trem is symbolic of what's happening all over north Wales. Entire crags are being lost never mind routes.
Most climbers under 30 balk at trekking up to mountain crags carrying heavy sacs full of climbing equipment and spare clothing etc. Indoor walls,bouldering and sports climbing are the extent of their experience.
If a roadside crag like Tremadog can see half its routes disappear what hope is there for some rambling crag in the Carneddau !
It's an age thing. Only middle aged climbers now go outside of the star blessed honeypot areas. When we're dead the mountain crags will return to the ravens.
Some will say a good thing too.
In reply to Veronica:
Agreed. It was a bloody nightmare to get there when I did it August Bank Holiday.
Will try and get there for the weekend.
> at the moment it is very taxing getting to the start of The Grasper for example and the first pitch looks a bit like a jungle.
Agreed. It was a bloody nightmare to get there when I did it August Bank Holiday.
Will try and get there for the weekend.
In reply to Jonno:
I don't think that is true in the slightest. I'll give you that younger climbers are generally very conservative in their route choice but to dismiss them as having no interest in mountain routes is very superficial.
Cloggy was mobbed during the several July weekends in the middle of the heat wave this Summer and there were plenty of younger climbers in evidence.
I can think of very few climbers whom I know who are not inspired by climbing on the bigger UK crags when conditions and opportunities present themselves.
However UK weather being what it is, there is no surprise that occasional visitors to North Wales end up at Tremadog rather than Cloggy.
UK climbers are now more likely to spend much of their limited holiday climbing abroad rather than taking extended climbing trips in the Scottish Highlands, Lakes or North Wales which help make the most of the UK weather. However they are equally likely to be in the Apls or Dolomites as they are to be clipping bolts.
> Most climbers under 30 balk at trekking up to mountain crags carrying heavy sacs full of climbing equipment and spare clothing etc. Indoor walls,bouldering and sports climbing are the extent of their experience.
I don't think that is true in the slightest. I'll give you that younger climbers are generally very conservative in their route choice but to dismiss them as having no interest in mountain routes is very superficial.
Cloggy was mobbed during the several July weekends in the middle of the heat wave this Summer and there were plenty of younger climbers in evidence.
I can think of very few climbers whom I know who are not inspired by climbing on the bigger UK crags when conditions and opportunities present themselves.
However UK weather being what it is, there is no surprise that occasional visitors to North Wales end up at Tremadog rather than Cloggy.
UK climbers are now more likely to spend much of their limited holiday climbing abroad rather than taking extended climbing trips in the Scottish Highlands, Lakes or North Wales which help make the most of the UK weather. However they are equally likely to be in the Apls or Dolomites as they are to be clipping bolts.
In reply to Jonno:
i agree but i think one of the main problems at tremadog is route finding....even if you've been before.
i think this is one reason why people stick to the classics....maybe a couple of markers for at least sectors rather than individual routes would encourage people to go for some more obscure gems.
i agree but i think one of the main problems at tremadog is route finding....even if you've been before.
i think this is one reason why people stick to the classics....maybe a couple of markers for at least sectors rather than individual routes would encourage people to go for some more obscure gems.
In reply to Jonno:
But Tremadog IS a star blessed honeypot area. Its also the standard wet weather bail out option from the pass. Half a dozen routes there get a huge amount of traffic all year round.
> It's an age thing. Only middle aged climbers now go outside of the star blessed honeypot areas.
But Tremadog IS a star blessed honeypot area. Its also the standard wet weather bail out option from the pass. Half a dozen routes there get a huge amount of traffic all year round.
In reply to Morgan Woods:
Posts in Ground marking out the approach paths through the trees akin the bolt restrctions of the Orme would not be a bad idea ...
but if anyone is to do make sure that you get paid first! dont do it for free.
Posts in Ground marking out the approach paths through the trees akin the bolt restrctions of the Orme would not be a bad idea ...
but if anyone is to do make sure that you get paid first! dont do it for free.
In reply to GrahamD:
cant agree more - just like Snowdon is to the Rhinogs Tremadog is to Craig Doris !
cant agree more - just like Snowdon is to the Rhinogs Tremadog is to Craig Doris !
In reply to Mark Stevenson:
The thing is most people now do the slightly more taxing zukator/grasper connection. As it is more in keeping with the awesome top groove.
> (In reply to Veronica)
> [...]
>
> Agreed. It was a bloody nightmare to get there when I did it August Bank Holiday.
>
> Will try and get there for the weekend.
> [...]
>
> Agreed. It was a bloody nightmare to get there when I did it August Bank Holiday.
>
> Will try and get there for the weekend.
The thing is most people now do the slightly more taxing zukator/grasper connection. As it is more in keeping with the awesome top groove.
> Most climbers under 30 balk at trekking up to mountain crags carrying heavy sacs full of climbing equipment and spare clothing etc. Indoor walls,bouldering and sports climbing are the extent of their experience.
Nothing like a good old fashioned sweeping generalisation - shame it's total nonsense.
You should get out more often Jonno.
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
What do the sinister words 'installation of retreat points at Clogwyn y Grochan' mean?
jcm
What do the sinister words 'installation of retreat points at Clogwyn y Grochan' mean?
jcm
In reply to Mark Stevenson:
Agreed, I had the same experience. Similarly when we went to Craig yr Ysfa in May-ish time on a good weekend, there was a queue of at least 4 parties on Mur y Niwl, two parties did the E2 to its left (name...?) and there were shedloads of people (10 parties maybe?) on Amphitheatre buttress.
> (In reply to Jonno)
> [...]
>
> I don't think that is true in the slightest. I'll give you that younger climbers are generally very conservative in their route choice but to dismiss them as having no interest in mountain routes is very superficial.
>
> Cloggy was mobbed during the several July weekends in the middle of the heat wave this Summer and there were plenty of younger climbers in evidence.
>
> I can think of very few climbers whom I know who are not inspired by climbing on the bigger UK crags when conditions and opportunities present themselves.
> [...]
>
> I don't think that is true in the slightest. I'll give you that younger climbers are generally very conservative in their route choice but to dismiss them as having no interest in mountain routes is very superficial.
>
> Cloggy was mobbed during the several July weekends in the middle of the heat wave this Summer and there were plenty of younger climbers in evidence.
>
> I can think of very few climbers whom I know who are not inspired by climbing on the bigger UK crags when conditions and opportunities present themselves.
Agreed, I had the same experience. Similarly when we went to Craig yr Ysfa in May-ish time on a good weekend, there was a queue of at least 4 parties on Mur y Niwl, two parties did the E2 to its left (name...?) and there were shedloads of people (10 parties maybe?) on Amphitheatre buttress.
In reply to Si dH:
Yes..pick one of the only crags in the Carneddau that receives regular traffic. Amphitheatre Buttress...how obscure !
Now...find the Q's on Llech Ddu or the Black Ladders in summer. Even old classics are disappearing under vegetation.
Yes..pick one of the only crags in the Carneddau that receives regular traffic. Amphitheatre Buttress...how obscure !
Now...find the Q's on Llech Ddu or the Black Ladders in summer. Even old classics are disappearing under vegetation.
In reply to Simon Panton:
If you think that remote mountain crags receive regular patronage from anyone...let alone younger climbers, then you've been playing with your boulders for too long.
I can take you to dozens of crags that probably haven't seen a climber in years.
If you think that remote mountain crags receive regular patronage from anyone...let alone younger climbers, then you've been playing with your boulders for too long.
I can take you to dozens of crags that probably haven't seen a climber in years.
In reply to Jonno: Depends how you define remote? I think you mean 'obscure' mountain crags.
My own personal experience researching and compiling the North Wales Rock guide over the last 2 years (along with the collective experiences of a large route checking team) is that the condescending and patronising myths that folk like yourself peddle about the spineless younger generation and the erosion of traditional values is actually a load of bollox. The truth is the good quality mountain crags (like Cloggy, Lliwedd, Craig yr Ysfa, East face of Tryfan etc See Mark Stevenson's post above for further anecdotal evidence) are getting traffic, and a fair proportion of those visiting climbers are young.
As for me 'playing' on my boulders, you know you really should try it some time. God forbid, you might even enjoy it. Imagine that!?
My own personal experience researching and compiling the North Wales Rock guide over the last 2 years (along with the collective experiences of a large route checking team) is that the condescending and patronising myths that folk like yourself peddle about the spineless younger generation and the erosion of traditional values is actually a load of bollox. The truth is the good quality mountain crags (like Cloggy, Lliwedd, Craig yr Ysfa, East face of Tryfan etc See Mark Stevenson's post above for further anecdotal evidence) are getting traffic, and a fair proportion of those visiting climbers are young.
As for me 'playing' on my boulders, you know you really should try it some time. God forbid, you might even enjoy it. Imagine that!?
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
This refers to the replacement of ad hocs bits of sling, rope and cord that has scatter the crag for years. With nice thick static rope, tied into the same place with a 12mm mallion to 'encourage' people to thread the mallion, rather than the rope, which results in the damage, and need for replacement.
At the time this was done there was talk about installing chains instead of the rope. Locals at the meeting thought this was a step too far.
Of course there is the old school argument that you should walk of this crag, however very few teams actually top out now, most have opted for abseiling off for some time now.
> (In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com)
>
> What do the sinister words 'installation of retreat points at Clogwyn y Grochan' mean?
>
> jcm
>
> What do the sinister words 'installation of retreat points at Clogwyn y Grochan' mean?
>
> jcm
This refers to the replacement of ad hocs bits of sling, rope and cord that has scatter the crag for years. With nice thick static rope, tied into the same place with a 12mm mallion to 'encourage' people to thread the mallion, rather than the rope, which results in the damage, and need for replacement.
At the time this was done there was talk about installing chains instead of the rope. Locals at the meeting thought this was a step too far.
Of course there is the old school argument that you should walk of this crag, however very few teams actually top out now, most have opted for abseiling off for some time now.
In reply to Simon Panton:
Agreed. However I don't think there is any real problem with the obvious and very understandable fact the obscure crags and mediocre mountain routes do not get climbed much.
However, if there are gems, or classic routes out there then some inspirational guidebook writing or magazine article is what's needed, not complaints about the younger generation being un-adventurous.
> (In reply to Jonno) Depends how you define remote? I think you mean 'obscure' mountain crags.
Agreed. However I don't think there is any real problem with the obvious and very understandable fact the obscure crags and mediocre mountain routes do not get climbed much.
However, if there are gems, or classic routes out there then some inspirational guidebook writing or magazine article is what's needed, not complaints about the younger generation being un-adventurous.
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: Just thought I'd bump this up to remind people that it is this weekend. Unfortunately I have to work otherwise I be there with my saw and some ragged determination.
Looks like a rainy day saturday, but sunny on the sunday ATM. So you could clean a route on Saturday and climb it on the sunday
Looks like a rainy day saturday, but sunny on the sunday ATM. So you could clean a route on Saturday and climb it on the sunday
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
Phantom Rib? I know there's all sorts lurking in the trees at Tremadog, would be fun to fun something like this though!
If you're worried about abseiling at Tremadog (or for that matter the Grochan) this will be major discussion topic at the next BMC area meeting 6th Feb 7.30 Vaynol, Nant Peris.
Mike Raine
Phantom Rib? I know there's all sorts lurking in the trees at Tremadog, would be fun to fun something like this though!
If you're worried about abseiling at Tremadog (or for that matter the Grochan) this will be major discussion topic at the next BMC area meeting 6th Feb 7.30 Vaynol, Nant Peris.
Mike Raine
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