UKC

Just wondering how many natives of God's forsaken county think these 2 words are just bits of Yorkshire dialect, spelt (weirdly) as 'owt' (pronounced 'oat'), and 'nowt' (pronounced 'note'); and how many of them realise they are a couple of fine old words from Old and Middle English. They appear in Shakespeare regularly, along with lots of other places, and their real spellings are 'aught' and 'naught'. They mean (obviously) anything, and nothing.

Okay, trespass into diurnal wordage concluded. Clare, here are your keys and your thesaurus back. Hope I didn't break anything.

In reply to Steve Parker: erm, on pronunciation- I`ve always pronounced them as they`re spelt- but then I`m from W.Yorks.

In reply to lummox:

Maybe you can do either, but it seems to me that people who live out in the sticks and have really strong Yorkshire accents always pronounce them oat and note.

In reply to Steve Parker: I`m sure they do- but I`m inner city scum...

In reply to lummox:

Yeah, I was inner city scum in the same city as you for 20 years

In reply to Steve Parker: In Nottinghamshire (where I grew up) they were definitely pronounced ote and note and used widely. I think it was the same for South Yorks. I think that owt and nowt were used further north (and possibly some west) in Yorkshire. Half my family are from Leeds but I'm struggling to recall how they'd pronounce them. I'm pretty sure me Uncle Tony from Castleford would say owt and nowt.

Can we have a survey? Where you are from and how do you pronounce ote/owt note/nowt.

Me: Mansfield - ote and note

In reply to Steve Parker:

Yes, country folk do tend to pronounce them oat and note. Though I too seem to have become inner city scum. Fine words, however pronounced.

Mick

In reply to El Greyo:

Bradford. Owt and nowt.

Mick

In reply to lummox:

I pronounce them the same as you

owt and nowt - exactly as spelt.

Thereagain, I too am the dredgings of the urban underclass, the most fetid and rangey west Bradford can offer.

In reply to Steve Parker:

Wonder why use of them hasn't continued in other areas? It can't just be because Yorkshire is an isolated backwater

Pronunciation round my way (a good 8 miles or so from you Steve) is more 'out' than 'oat'.

In reply to Jimmy D:

Is that the old people as well, or just the young? In my experience, the old pronunciations seem to be dying out as owt and nowt take over. I suspect it's down to the spellings as much as anything else.

In reply to Jimmy D:


More 'out' than 'oat' here but owt and out still distinguishable from each other

If I said I hadn't got owt, people would know that I hadn't got anything rather than it being a phonecall from the jail

In reply to Steve Parker:

Just to put you straight:

Yorkshire is not God's foresaken county. God could never have created anything so wonderful in the first place so it wasn't his to foresake.

In reply to Rampikino:

Well, he's certainly forsaken to visit for a while as far as I can make out. You seen the bloody state of Guisecliffe recently?

In reply to Jimmy D:


Oat and note were usual in Staffordshire and south Derbyshire when I was a lad. I suspect they still are.

In reply to Steve Parker:

I think those that have mentioned an urban/rural (or agricultural/industrial) distinction might be on to something. My Granny for example (mill girl, b. Rochdale 1893) was more 'out' than 'oat'.

In reply to lummox: Owt and nowt in North Yorkshire too.

In reply to Nim:

Grandfather (estate joiner and all-rounder for all his working life, whole life in same very rural(*) area near the N. Yorkshire / County Durham border) pronounced them to rhyme with "out"
* rural but not the sticks, only 8 miles from a major town

I've never heard "owt" pronounced "oat" in my life
I guess I've heard "nowt" pronounced "note" but I used to assume it was just Harrogate/Ripon people with pretensions to being posh, an assumption that was, in my mind, concreted when I heard Southerners doing the same (presumably as an inversion, i.e. trying to sound LESS posh and more "gnarly")

In reply to Blue Straggler:

In my experience, Southerners, when trying to put on a 'Northern' accent, try to say owt and nowt.

I think it's more regional than class. From replies here, in Staffordshire, Derbyshire, Notts and Lincolnshire we have ote and note and (generally - some exceptions) West and North Yorks say owt and nowt. I reckon in South Yorks they say ote and note but I'd like to hear from someone from Sheffied, Rotherham etc to confirm (or otherwise) that.

In reply to Steve Parker: I spent my childhood years in South Yorkshire and it was Owt and Nowt as in "If tha does owt for nowt do it for thi sen"

In reply to tradlad:

Fair enough, we seem to have established both pronunciations are getting plenty of use. My main point was that they were actually aught and naught, which I suspected had been forgotten a long time ago.

Born and bred in oldham I pronounce owt and nowt, as do
the old timers of the family.
But when I worked near wakefield I noticed the locals
said oat note.

My thought before this topic was nowt/owt was lancashire
and oat/note yorskhire, and now accents are interbreeding
and most people no longer have a thoroughbred accent.

Unless your from Bolton that is. ;0)

In reply to El Greyo:

''I'm pretty sure me Uncle Tony from Castleford would say owt and nowt.'

If Uncle Tony is Cas born and bred I'm suprised you understand a word he says..................

Anyhow, I hadn't realised that this was old english
and think its quite a impressive bit of knowledge.

BRAVO

How would shakespeare have pronounced it. ?

Live in north derbyshire, and work in rotherham, and in my experience its oat and note in both locations.

In reply to Steve Parker: I'm originally from t'other side of Pennines (Wigan), and I always considered them pronounced owt and nowt.

In reply to Steve Parker: having been born in Gods own County of Lancashire with parents from the Greater Manchester area, "Owt" and "nowt" would be pronounced as they are spelt, with emphasis on the "ow" as in a proclaimation of pain. In context, and to reaffirm regional sterotypes, "i ain't nicked owt like mate" and "nowt worth nicking there like mate". in my humble opinion, you are deluded yourself of grandeur by pronouncing it "ort", "oat" or "ote". Happy to help

In reply to Phill_H:

Blimey, how old you think I am?! Somewhere between ort and oat, probably.

In reply to Steve Parker:

Not sure about that! People I knew living in the sticks said "owt" and "nowt" (sometimes sounding more like "nawt").

And what's a "strong Yorkshire accent"? When I grew up you could tell what *village* someone was from by the way they said certain words.

Or even by certain words themselves: around my village a cow-shed was a "mistal". Next village over it was a "cow-'ouse", and a bit further away still it was a "shippon". Three distinct words in about 7 miles.

In reply to El Greyo: I think Sheffield is round about the boundary. Here I hear mainly 'out'. 'Oat' sems to come form slightly further south (Notts and Derbs).

In reply to Phill_H:

Dunno what they teach in Yorkshire schools these days, but we did it in Miss Gaunt's class in "Standard 2" (must have been aged 8).

In reply to Steve Parker: South Cumbria - owt and nowt. These are northern dialect, not Yorkshire!

In reply to all you southerners
I`ve always pronounced them as they`re spelt- but then I`m from Northumberland.

In reply to Rob Naylor:

I remember an interseting conversation with a lass from barnsley about chapel hat pegs.

In reply to Steve Parker:

hello.

good call

I should start this up again.

tomorrow.



good words, btw

In reply to Steve Parker:

How about some more Yorkshire dialect? Here's another from my Gran:

'Mafted'= hot and bothered, often owing to being over-clothed in warm conditions. I, for example, was pretty 'mafted' last night when I finished doing many reps on routes at Hudds wall, immediateley put all my work clotes and two coats back on and ran for my train.

In reply to Rob Naylor:

I've lived in Sheffield all my life and everyone I know from Sheffield and Rotherham use the "owt" and "nowt" but with a sharp "o" as in "off".

I have also heard the words in other areas pronounced as though they were spelt "awt" and "nawt" which is probably the sounding that you are refering to.

Hope that makes sense.

In reply to Jimmy D: is nithered Yaarkshire ? Meaning really cold- i.e. " It`s freezing out there, I`m nithered. "

In reply to lummox:

nithering - a fave of mine.

mafting - that's a proper RDism in my world - he's good for his proper Yorkshireisms, owing to a virtually incomprehensible bratfud-ish grandma

In reply to Jimmy D:


Bobar. (Bobbar?) Caca. Poo. Merde.

As in, "Tha's stood in't bobar!" [Hee, hee]

Old Sheffield. Said elsewhere?

Mick

In reply to Steve Parker: I'm not from Yorkshire (Midlands actually) but occasionally use 'owt' and 'nowt' pronounced ow't' (ow as in hurts and 't' with sharp emphasis).

In reply to CJD:

And mithering.

Mick

In reply to Mick Ward:

baba? said in RD-world... again... most people I know round here say 'bab' meaning 'utter shite'

In reply to CJD:

haven't read the whole thread but it's reminding me of that scene in Billy Liar when Billy's muttering 'eeee, ah were raight thraaaped'.

meaning, iirc, that he was a bit weary.

In reply to Rob Naylor:


oh yes - in Wetherby I've heard ice described as frozzen watter. They didn't say that in the village where I grew up, about 5 miles from wetherby.

In reply to Blue Straggler:

lol, I've heard oat and note - round Hudders, too.

In reply to CJD:

I'm neither micklin nor mucklin

In reply to Mick Ward:

Came across one in an Alan Bennet book recently, which was 'thoil', as in 'I couldn't thoil to do it', which is a bit like 'I couldn't afford to do it', but apparently means something like 'I wouldn't spend my money in such a stupid way!' I wonder if it's related to toil, as in I couldn't be bothered, or something.

In reply to Steve Parker:

Course I'm a shandy drinkin' southerner made good and moved Norf, but I love the dialects. Worked a lot in Notts and guys on my watch would often refer to smoke, "pothering out of a building." love that one. I also like the Sheffield use of 'while' as in "I'm working here while nine."

Had a lot of builders in last few months and it's been lots of oat and note.

Any road, it's gerrin' black over Bills mothers, so I'd better gerrart..........

jh

In reply to john horscroft: Owt and Nowt are nothing compared with:

http://www.slaidburn.org.uk/counting_sheep.htm

A whole new language.

In reply to john horscroft: "5 while 9" is used in West Yorkshire as is " pass us " - used by the individual or even better.. " we`re on us `olidays."

In reply to Nim:

i will NOT find the number 15 funny, I will NOT.

In reply to CJD:

Where I originate from getting 'thraped' meant you were going to get a good hiding from your mum or dad...

In reply to Tiggs:

ah, that might be it.

In reply to Nim:

Peddero-Bumfit

Ha ha! Nidderdale talk apparently!

Plenty of Yorkshire/Viking landscape words, of course: royd means intake, as in an area of moorland cleared for pasture; syke is a stream; wyke, wick or wyck means cattle farm; a thorpe is a farm (if I remember right); worth ('wuth') is a village (as in Haworth - high worth); a stoop is a standing stone. Used to know lots of these.

In reply to Steve Parker: That would be something for nothing then!

In reply to Steve Parker:
I'm from Pudsey.
Owt - pronounced like owe with a t on the end
Nowt - pronounced know't

Dunno why you're bothered. S'neither nowt nor summat.

In reply to Steve Parker:

round here a stream is a beck, also a viking thing.

Same as all the villages and towns ending in -by

In reply to ebygomm:

not just Viking, as bach is germanic for stream

In reply to Phill_H:
Unless your from Bolton that is. ;0)


lancashire folk do pronounce it owt an nowt

whereas Bolton folk (where I live) pronounce it

get owt or Ill punch yer ont nose for nowt :#{