UKC

This just in from Dan Bailey who was up on Ben Nevis yesterday (Wednesday 7th February)

http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

Mick,
Is this a news worthy post? Can you reconcile promoting this as a news article with the recent concerns regarding winter fatalities/safety by various groups/individuals, especially when the piece contains (in my mind at least) contradictory statements e.g. ‘…first time placements every time; I doubt any of the screws were that secure,…’ and potentially misleading references to ‘…pal did Smith's Route a couple of days ago and said it's good…’. Extrapolating conditions beyond those you have experienced (e.g. ‘…and some perhaps to Little Brenva - In the present condition I'd say both of these would be an excellent bet…’) on a forum where the level of experience and technical ability covers both ends of the climbing spectrum, is irresponsible.

There are host of other posters who report on conditions - why do they not make the news page?

Sion

In reply to Sion Roberts:

oh FFS. It's his site, he can put what he wants on there, you aren't paying for it.

I don't read the Winter Climbing forums as a rule so I was quite interested to read it.

In reply to Sion Roberts: yea get a grip- people can read that report, go and have a look and make their own judgment- you would have to be a fool to take it word for word.

In reply to Sion Roberts: Just the type of thing needed to increase honeypotting on already popular routes. I know the info is there if people look for it, but better to hand it to them on a plate.

In reply to Alun:
Word.

In reply to Sion Roberts:

Very much so Sion. The vast majority of climbers climb at weekends, I know I do. Getting as much info as you can about conditions is very important. This is a first hand report by Dan and very informative. Lots and lots of people will find this very useful. Also lots of reports in the winter forums. Point of explanation here as I have explained to several....not everyone visits the forums, some just check the news page daily or use an RSS feed.


Climbing is dangerous. You could die climbing. Take responsibility for your own safety. Gather information, weigh it up. Make your own decisions. Hard lessons to learn, but essential in any risk activity.


They are linked to the news item.

Mick

In reply to Alun:


It isn't my site Alun. I work for UKClimbing.com. UKClimbing.com provides a service to all climbers.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

Fair-dooze, and cheers for your reply/explanation.

Sion

In reply to Sion Roberts: Sion, I've no opinion of the newsworthiness or otherwise, as that's not down to me. But on the other points:

1. I'm not sure what's contradictory in mentioning easy axe placements in the same breath as questionable screws.

2. What's 'potentially misleading' about passing on hearsay, if it is clearly presented as such?

3. Extrapolating conditions. You're right, I didn't climb every route on the mountain yesterday, just one modestly graded gully. But having been up there, used my eyes, and spoken to others, I don't think '...I'd say both of these would be an excellent bet' can be considered irresponsible. It's my OPINION, with an emphasis very much on BETTING. Meant as a tip on what MIGHT be worth a butcher's.

It's up to others to go and have a look for themselves, and to judge for themselves what's do-able or not based on what they find, and how capable they feel. Taking responsibility for youself is what climbing is all about, isn't it?

In reply to dan bailey:
Dan,
Cheers for your reply.

1. I'm not sure what's contradictory in mentioning easy axe placements in the same breath as questionable screws.

My main concern was how your experience of conditions in Comb Gully could be misinterpreted by people who
perhaps place an over-reliance on internet reports, and would be attracted to a route like that (especially as it was a high profile news article). I’m in no way suggesting this is what you meant, but for example, good placements plus doubt over the security of screws may appeal to the ‘let’s have it’ attitude. Contradictory was perhaps not the best word to use.

2. What's 'potentially misleading' about passing on hearsay, if it is clearly presented as such?
Hearsay has the potential to mislead. Your pals definition of good may not be the same as the readers. I don't think that is pedantic, I think it is fundamental.

3. Extrapolating conditions. You're right, I didn't climb every route on the mountain yesterday, just one modestly graded gully. But having been up there, used my eyes, and spoken to others, I don't think '...I'd say both of these would be an excellent bet' can be considered irresponsible. It's my OPINION, with an emphasis very much on BETTING. Meant as a tip on what MIGHT be worth a butcher's.

Extrapolating from Comb Gully to people who you think were heading up to the Little Brenva, is for the betting man.

It's up to others to go and have a look for themselves, and to judge for themselves what's do-able or not based on what they find, and how capable they feel. Taking responsibility for youself is what climbing is all about, isn't it?

The report was informative don’t get me wrong, but reports can encourage people not to take responsibility for themselves i.e. the author makes the decision for them.

All the best,
Sion

In reply to Sion Roberts: Hi Sion

I'd hope that people took internet reports with as much of a pinch of salt as any other way of getting 2nd hand information, such as talking to other people face to face, or reading a guidebook. It's all just information - and I'm not sure why one medium is more likely to encourage a 'let's have it' attitude than another. People's attitudes are down to them - and that's really not meant to sound harsh, but I think it is true.

Hearsay - My own definition of good may not be the same as the reader's. It might also be different from my pal's. Present a piece of info for what it is - i.e. hearsay - and people can draw whatever they like from that. It's not gospel.

Extrapolating. Don't we all do it? That's the real value of internet conditions reports as far as I'm concerned. Someone says X was good yesterday and I think to myself well, if that was 'good' (whatever that means) then perhaps Y, with a similar aspect/height/etc might be worth the walk in. If I was already planning on doing X and then saw a thread about it on a website I might either avoid it because it's likely to be crowded, or go early to beat the queue, or think f*ck it I don't mind queuing for a good route that I've always wanted to do so long as I think it can be done safely... If I was going to the Ben today I'd probably go to Little Brenva or Indicator Wall because for various reasons I left the mountain yesterday with a pretty good hunch about them.

I think you might be trying to lay the blame for bad decisions at the wrong door. People have to take responsibility for their own actions. We use all sorts of information gathering tools (weather forecast, SAIS, UKC, guidebooks, phonecalls to mates...etc) in the process of making a plan, but on the day what we do is down to each of us.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

This is in the wrong forum!!!!!!!!

Try the winter forum?

And why can't I use UPPER CASE all the way through?

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:


Wrong Forum!!! Please read the Posting guidelines and slap your wrist.

Dunces hat for you - boy