UKC

In December 1983 Ron Fawcett made the first ascent of The Master's Edge, E7 6c, the square cut arete in the Green Death area of Millstone in the Peak District. As one climbing magazine said at the time: "while the rest of us were tucking into Christmas lunch, Fawcett was out at work at Millstone."

Twenty-two years after the first ascent there have been several no-practice-ground-up-onsight attempts at The Master's Edge.

Read about the latest here... http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

A close one.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

From Burbage Millstone and Beyond....

"...in 2004, the talented young Liam Halsey finally closed the book on the climb by doing the long waited onsight flash"

I think this needs a mention.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: And the quote, I'm sure, is "only a true master could solo this route on-sight."

In reply to Tom Randall - Lattice Training:

I think it does.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

You seem to be coming out with news thicker and faster these days. Is this policy, or what? Good call, in my opinion. I'm regularly reading interesting stuff here.

In reply to Steve Parker: News is good, but accurate news is better - sorry Mick but even your own report contradicts itself.

In reply to Tom Randall - Lattice Training:

Liam fell off this at least once. I cant remember how many times, but not many at all.

In reply to GraemeA at home:

This is web 2.0 Graeme. Rather than criticise, help and assist.

Cheers,

Mick

In reply to Steve Parker:

Thanks Steve.

Yes it is a policy and we are attempting to do more comprehensive reports, giving more background rather than presuming that all readers are in the know.

We are also making a big effort to fact check, including calling people. We won't get everything right all the time, if we do slip up, correct us and we can amend the reports.

Mick

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: To help and assist... I don't think Moffat's quote is correct, and this ascent was ground-up since he fell off, and it is not the first time it has been ground-upped is it??
And the Careless Torque ascent was also ground-up and not an onsight...

In reply to Nj:

So if he hadn't fell of what would it have been?

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

A ground up onsight flash, or a ground up flash with beta.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

Did he have beta? If he'd got it first go:

Onsight - no beta

Flash - beta

In reply to Jus:

As apose to a top down onsight flash?

Why not just an onsight flash, which we all know are attempted from the ground-up.

In this case ground-up second try is perhaps more descriptive. Or as I said, "a one fall, no-practice ground-up ascent".....I added no-practice just to clarify.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

As long as it's accurate, it's all good.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

im confused, the photo (of masters edge) on the article links to twelve other photos of a route called edge lane. is masters edge climbed on the right of the edge lane arete and edge lane climbed on the left or am i just hopelessly confused and lost.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
yeh but if you click on the little link on the bottom of that photo you get a load of pics of edge lane. sorry, should have been more clear.

In reply to Alrobertson:

He's right y'know....

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
Just to clarify completely: was the low-down fall held by a rope? If not, IMO it doesn't count as a "fall" and the attempt is unsullied by it.

If you don't allow that, you couldn't allow the climber to downclimb one move, or (if applied very strictly) even to feel around for the best hold above!

In reply to Simon:
Database error, the photo is linked to a route called "Master's Edge", but seems to have it's link to Edge Lane.

They are neighbouring aretes, but this is just a db fc*kup.

In reply to Andy Stephenson: DOwn climbing is allowed for any ascent, be it onsight, flash, rgound-up or redpoint, but falling is not, rope or not. If boulderers fall (no ropes there) they blow the flash, same as with routes, irrespective of whether you have gear in or not.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:


I think maybe a good definition of all of the styles might be useful for the climbing media at present, there's certainly been confusion in the last couple of weeks within a few reports (not on this site) regarding which style a route was tackled with. I do believe its important that these things are reported corretly on the internet as the news page is extremely busy and its reports will be widely read - and remembered im sure.

Mick - you still havent clarified the difference between onsight and ground up on your angel's share piece...

In reply to Paul B:


I agree.


Will do

In reply to Nj: I'm not disputing that you're strictly correct, of course, but in my opinion it gets silly when we try and split hairs this finely.

To make the distinction between a no-stop ascent and a second-try might be justifiable for bouldering, where ropes don't figure anyway: that sub-sport is inherently more artificial and therefore needs more strict and refined rules.

But if you turn up with no prior knowledge of a route, then lead it from start to finish and without weighting the rope at any point you should be awarded the full "flash" tick with all the brass band accompaniment. Cratering is only uncontrolled downclimbing, after all! I'd be miffed if I had a quick look at the problem start of a route then had the "flash" disallowed because I jumped off and started again.

Sorry to wander off topic. Whether this ascent counts as a flash or not, it's an amazingly feat of skill and daring...

In reply to Andy Stephenson:
Cratering is only uncontrolled downclimbing

One is done by choice the other (often) isn't. Sorry to rain on your parade but thats just that, you can contrive all kind of things but if anything as small as your foot slips on the first move, you've blown the onsight/flash. Maybe your not as strict with your own ascents but when it comes down to the cutting edge and historical ascents this stuff matters.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
Will it ever be possible for someone to truly onsight Master's edge, since even I know the beta for what gear to take with me and where to place it, even though my best lead is only E1 and I live in Bath! I don't think any other route has such well known and specific gear to protect it.

In reply to Andy Stephenson:

I'm not disputing that you're strictly correct, of course, but in my opinion it gets silly when we try and split hairs this finely.

Quite.

I am so glad this stuff wasn't as well developed when I was trying to climb hard routes, it would have bored me to tears

In reply to Paul B:


I remember reading that Ben Moon almost flashed the Screaming Dream but slipped off a low easy move. Does anyone know if he weighted any gear?

In reply to Paul B: It's "contriving" too much that I object to. If your foot slipping on the first move invalidates the flash attempt, then the "flash/onsight" rules are too contrived to be bothered with and we should ignore such nuances.

In reply to Andy Stephenson: its a lack of skill or attention or neglect at the bottom that makes you slip so what difference is that to slipping for the same reasons mid crux etc?

In reply to Paul B: The difference is that normally you'd be weighting the rope if you fell off mid-crux so there's no question of an "onsight flash" then.

In reply to Andy Stephenson: So I fall from 2 thirds of the way up the hard bit of Archangel. Luckliy I land well get back on it after a tab and some coffee. You telling me I onsighted it?

In reply to Removed User: It's only my personal view, but I'd say yes. No gear used and the only info gained by actually climbing the route.

In reply to Andy Stephenson: FALLS BLOW THE ONSIGHT. stop kidding yourselves that just because you didnt weight the rope you get an onsight! did ben moon onsight voyager because he didnt weight a rope?? no! if i fall on a easy low move it's just like falling on a easy high move: i fell off so i didnt onsight it. falling blows it. end of.

In reply to abarro81: I agree, stop kidding yourself andy.

In reply to abarro81:

You mean it ends the onsight flash attempt. From the point above where the person falls off they will still be climbing onsight.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: yes, but they cannot get the 'onsight' of the route. you know it. if you have a valid and interesting point like the one john arran put in the other thread on this about whether boulder problem starts are/should be graded for onsights then make it. if not then stop being so annoying. please.

In reply to abarro81:

Not arguing with anyone, but just for clarification, if you climb part way up, then downclimb to the ground and start again and do it clean, is that an onsight flash or not?

In reply to gingerkate:

Depends who you ask.

I say it's onsight.

In reply to gingerkate: As I recall:

Onsight Flash: The flash bit means without weighting gear or down climbing to the ground.

Onsight means with no prior knowledge outside of the current climbing session, so does not exclude down climbing to the ground.

In reply to gingerkate:
I'm with Andy on this one

A downclimb, either to a resting point or the ground, does not invalidate an "onsight" ascent. A fall which doesn't weight the rope is no differant to jumping off, and a simply a dynamic downclimb!

But these are my rules - and they only apply to me. You might have differant rules - and they only apply to you.

THATS BECAUSE THERE ARE NO RULES

In reply to gingerkate:

Under my rules you would get the onsight.

bluebrad

In reply to Chris the Tall:

That's what I was thinking. I was thinking, if you're allowed to climb down, you must be allowed to jump off?? Because the last step of a downclimb is always a tiny jump. And how can we say it's ok to jump, but not fall ... I mean we could, but then everyone falling (uninjured!) can say, oh that wasn't a fall, it was a jump off...

:oS

In reply to John Kirk:
so did the rules of the day apparentley.placing gear by abb!!!!!

In reply to gingerkate: yes

In reply to gingerkate:

no. downclimbing in control is using climbing skill like downclimbing to a rest position/jug below a crux is fine. jumping off means you're not good enough/too lazy to downclimb and so is different (in my opinion) - it's just like falling. the last step doesnt have to be a jump, it could be a completely controlled lower.

In reply to abarro81:

Spot on imo.

In reply to abarro81:
Fair enough. That's logical.

In reply to gingerkate:
It's a bit like the 50k walk in the olympics - you have to keep a requisite number of points of contact on the rock at all times, otherwise you'll will have been deemed to have "fallen".

Mind you in competitions as soon as you leave the deck, you can't retreat, so the next argument comes as to when the climb starts.

"So and so climbed Master's Edge, but he tripped over a boulder on the path so that invalidates his ascent...."

In reply to Chris the Tall: I hope your just being flippant now.

In reply to abarro81:



So where do you stand on dynos (going in the opposite direction) ?

As far as I can see a planned jump in control (rather than a fall or a forced jump) is as valid as down climbing.

In reply to GrahamD: dynoing downwards. right. well so long as you catch yourself on a lower hold rather than deck out on a ledge/the floor then fine!
if you can downclimb then there is no need to jump, just downclimb to the floor. if you can't downclimb then it's a forced jump and just like falling off

In reply to abarro81: Can we just agree that the "flash" is only possible with no retreating of any kind then? Even if you just test a hold then reverse a move back to the previous position you lose the chance to flash the route. At least that's straightforward (pun intended).

Otherwise, as you can see, there's a debate about types of allowable retreat and it all seems a bit meaningless.

The onsight is a different kettle of fish, and appears to be a can of worms as well...

In reply to Andy Stephenson: in a word, no. sorry. downclimbing is prefectly legitimate and a very useful and advisable tactic.

In reply to abarro81:

You are being too harsh in your interpretions of these terms, and they are only interpretations as you will no doubt recognise from the various definitions on various discussions at this website. There are gray areas when attributing an onsight, some ascents can be a partial onsight, just like there are various levels of beta (watching or oral for example) that people have on a flash ascent.

¿Comprendé ?

M

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: yeah, i guess i am being a little facist in my imposing of my definition (its cos they're right btw) just so long as everyone's honest in their claims/reports of ascents then i guess thats what matters

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:


How did you do that? <searches keyboard for inverted question mark, to no avail>

In reply to gingerkate: ¿ Well I'll be....¿¿¿¿

In reply to gingerkate:

Needs some flexibility ... hold your right hand above the key then twist your elbow around until it faces the screen and your finger is poised backwards over the keys. Now whack the '?' quickly before your computer sees you ... then: ¡hola! ¿ ¿ ¿ ¿

In reply to tobyfk:

Oh I see, like this you mean ¿¿¿¿¿¿¿

Excellent. You're right though, tricky, needs considerable reach too...

Hey, this ¿¿¿ stuff prompts a (fairly...) sensible question ...

Suppose you hear a specific bit of beta about a move on a route, and then you onsight flash it. But you don't actually use that beta, because when you get to that move you find that what you overheard doesn't work for you, and you do something quite different. Have you buggered the pure onsight because you heard that bit of beta?

In reply to gingerkate:
That's the highly prized beta-sandbag flash.

In reply to gingerkate:

There is a fun term called the beta-sandbag flash, the ultimate type of ascent when someone gives you false beta but you flash the route anyway. First coined I believe by a chap called Paul Greenland, which I then used in a glossary of all these terms many moons ago.

In reply to Jon Read:
LOL

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

Oh I see, it's even better than an ordinary flash because you did it despite the distracting rubbish beta.

Nice

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

Got a vague memory of a 'Yorkshire lads go sea cliff climbing' trip to Cornwall in the early 1980s, with Basher and, I think, Paul. (He was going off to work in a brewery then!) Great bloke, if so. Certainly the beta-sandbag flash is one to remember.

Mick

In reply to gingerkate:

Surely it can't be better than a straight onsight as the route was approached with 'impure' intentions IE the person thought they had beta.

In reply to Mick Ward:

I remember when Paul G came out with that one. I think Paul Clarke, Tony B and a whole slew of us were having a pint at a pub near Kilnsey.

In reply to GrahamD:
Oh dear, I wasn't thinking about their impure intentions, I was just thinking the route was harder with false info. Do impure intentions detract from an onsight then?

In reply to gingerkate:

I think at this level of pedentry intention must count.