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I've been practising for my spa and have got building releasable abseils pretty much wired. Only own 2 ropes, a half and a single, dynamic ropes, however, and have been rigging the releasable abseil on the single and the safety line on the half. My query is when setting it up for real, should the releasable abseil be a static line, and can the saftey one by a single dynamic one? Thanks for any help
In reply to Matt Maynard:
Hi,
In an ideal setup you would have a static rigging rope, static abseil rope and a single dynamic rope as a safety.
You use a dynamic rope for safety as it is generally easier to belay with than a static.
With all that said you can do the entire setup with dynamic or static - there's no hard and fast rules, except make sure they are all single ropes, not halfs or twins.
Hope that helps, when you doing your assessment?
Bryn
Hi,
In an ideal setup you would have a static rigging rope, static abseil rope and a single dynamic rope as a safety.
You use a dynamic rope for safety as it is generally easier to belay with than a static.
With all that said you can do the entire setup with dynamic or static - there's no hard and fast rules, except make sure they are all single ropes, not halfs or twins.
Hope that helps, when you doing your assessment?
Bryn
In reply to Matt Maynard: Not quite sure what a releasable abseil is but I would have said that you would abseil on a static rope and use a dynamic rope for the safety. Don't quote me though. This just seems common sense. I haven't done the spa course.
In reply to bryn: Cheers Bryn, I am doing my spa this weekend with dave ayris. I think I met you very briefly at the Beacon when I was working there two summers ago and steve and Gill put me through the training! thanks again,
matt
matt
In reply to Matt Maynard:
nice one - say hello to dave from me.
you'll have a great course, top instructor
bryn
nice one - say hello to dave from me.
you'll have a great course, top instructor
bryn
In reply to Matt Maynard:
If this is the sort of nonsense they teach you on spa courses than it just confirms what I thought about them!
Why not just abseil in the normal way? Keep things simple is the best rule, especially for abseiling, just about the most deadly activity in climbing.
If this is the sort of nonsense they teach you on spa courses than it just confirms what I thought about them!
Why not just abseil in the normal way? Keep things simple is the best rule, especially for abseiling, just about the most deadly activity in climbing.
In reply to Bruce Hooker:
It's not a system used for personal abseil, rather when abseiling with groups, e.g. as a charity event.
The purpose of the releasable system is so that if a punter gets stuck you can release the abseil line and lower them on the safety.
In reality the punter is not often abseiling, more of a controlled lower with an abseil con thrown in.
DJ
It's not a system used for personal abseil, rather when abseiling with groups, e.g. as a charity event.
The purpose of the releasable system is so that if a punter gets stuck you can release the abseil line and lower them on the safety.
In reality the punter is not often abseiling, more of a controlled lower with an abseil con thrown in.
DJ
In reply to Bruce Hooker:
I find remarks like that one quite insulting and it just goes to show that you clearly have no idea what you are talking about.
I find remarks like that one quite insulting and it just goes to show that you clearly have no idea what you are talking about.
In reply to Matt Maynard:
one image to illustrate it set up.
http://tinyurl.com/yo8xdk
you can see seprate loops off the rigging rope, one for the dynamic single rope (1) and another shorter loop for the static abseil rope tied off with locked off Italian hitch.
Releasable to enable sorting out of any problems with hair, fingers or fear... the person can be lowered to the ground quickly by releasing the locked off hitch... and not cutting the expesive ropes wich we like to re use with other groups...
one image to illustrate it set up.
http://tinyurl.com/yo8xdk
you can see seprate loops off the rigging rope, one for the dynamic single rope (1) and another shorter loop for the static abseil rope tied off with locked off Italian hitch.
Releasable to enable sorting out of any problems with hair, fingers or fear... the person can be lowered to the ground quickly by releasing the locked off hitch... and not cutting the expesive ropes wich we like to re use with other groups...
In reply to Bruce Hooker:
"...just about the most deadly activity in climbing"
With responces like Mr Hookers it would explain why abseiling is so deadly. As explained by other posts group abseils need to be set up in a very different way from personal ones / escape / retreat etc.
I guess Mr Hooker has his own understanding of "duty of care"?
"...just about the most deadly activity in climbing"
With responces like Mr Hookers it would explain why abseiling is so deadly. As explained by other posts group abseils need to be set up in a very different way from personal ones / escape / retreat etc.
I guess Mr Hooker has his own understanding of "duty of care"?
In reply to Matt Maynard: Not answering the question and probably stating the obvious.
The one and only time I've ever rigged a releasable abseil was on my SPA assessment. I was in 'normal climbing' mode and was for some reason thinking the safety rope was a back-up and had put all my effort into ensuring the abseil rope was on bombproof anchors when I should have been equally or more concerned about the safety rope.
Basically if you're setting up your anchors equalising a whole lots of placed gear, then make sure that both ropes are off equally bombproof anchors. If anything, prioritise the safety rope.
Anyway, good luck with you're assessment!
In reply to others: Releasable abseils are for teaching children, non-climbers or anyone you don't trust not to cock things up.
If you want to teach abseiling 'properly' you use a stacked abseil. You set your clients up on the abseil rope, abseil first and then and you safeguard them by having control of the rope at the bottom of the abseil. However it is only suitable if you're instructing two clients rather than a group.
The one and only time I've ever rigged a releasable abseil was on my SPA assessment. I was in 'normal climbing' mode and was for some reason thinking the safety rope was a back-up and had put all my effort into ensuring the abseil rope was on bombproof anchors when I should have been equally or more concerned about the safety rope.
Basically if you're setting up your anchors equalising a whole lots of placed gear, then make sure that both ropes are off equally bombproof anchors. If anything, prioritise the safety rope.
Anyway, good luck with you're assessment!
In reply to others: Releasable abseils are for teaching children, non-climbers or anyone you don't trust not to cock things up.
If you want to teach abseiling 'properly' you use a stacked abseil. You set your clients up on the abseil rope, abseil first and then and you safeguard them by having control of the rope at the bottom of the abseil. However it is only suitable if you're instructing two clients rather than a group.
In reply to bryn:
I've seen someone die abseiling, he whistled right past me, and it is probably the single most deadly operation in the mountains... made worse because it is often done when you are tired or retreating in bad conditions, but this is all the more reason to keep it simple.
The fact that beginners are attracted to the idea of using such rigs in the mountains is proven at regular intervals by the thread that beginners start on ukc... usually it's to "save weight" or "'cos I've I can't afford another rope" and so on... I have always wondered where they get such a daft idea from... now I know!
If it's for demos and other "charity" events in which non-climbers are given the chance to "have a go" at abbing then this is all the more reason to convince me that these organised course are are ill conceived and probably do more harm than good... apart than for those who earn there living by flogging them, of course
This wouldn't be your situation by any chance, would it?
I've seen someone die abseiling, he whistled right past me, and it is probably the single most deadly operation in the mountains... made worse because it is often done when you are tired or retreating in bad conditions, but this is all the more reason to keep it simple.
The fact that beginners are attracted to the idea of using such rigs in the mountains is proven at regular intervals by the thread that beginners start on ukc... usually it's to "save weight" or "'cos I've I can't afford another rope" and so on... I have always wondered where they get such a daft idea from... now I know!
If it's for demos and other "charity" events in which non-climbers are given the chance to "have a go" at abbing then this is all the more reason to convince me that these organised course are are ill conceived and probably do more harm than good... apart than for those who earn there living by flogging them, of course
This wouldn't be your situation by any chance, would it?
In reply to Bruce Hooker:
I guess that that nonsense response from you has just about confirmed what many people seem to think...........
P.S. The most deadly activity in climbing is driving to and from the crags.
I guess that that nonsense response from you has just about confirmed what many people seem to think...........
P.S. The most deadly activity in climbing is driving to and from the crags.
In reply to Bruce Hooker:
I get the impression that you're confusing two different systems and purposes. Read the responses carefully. Two different things, you seem to be referring to a retievable abseil.
DJ
I get the impression that you're confusing two different systems and purposes. Read the responses carefully. Two different things, you seem to be referring to a retievable abseil.
DJ
In reply to KeithW:
Sorry Keith,
Anyway if a frequent poster here on UKC runs true to form they are unlikely to look at what's been written or even check it out and will continue to argue the toss until they play their "Chinese Gambit".
(allegedly)
DJ
Sorry Keith,
Anyway if a frequent poster here on UKC runs true to form they are unlikely to look at what's been written or even check it out and will continue to argue the toss until they play their "Chinese Gambit".
(allegedly)
DJ
In reply to Deejay:
Where is the abb released from? Top or bottom? If it's from the bottom it's potentially dangerous if used as a retrievable system... why teach it? It's clearly been understood as for use outside of teaching as people continually refer to it her for use on multi-abseil descents in the alps... hardly sounds as if they are talking about teaching groups of beginners.
I'm against course in general as they seem to teach standardised systems and generally complicate things... you only have to see groups of Brits in the Alps as the sun goes down and they are still setting up their multi-point equalised belays. It also implies that you do a course, you get your bit of paper and then your an expert (after buying all the regulation gear of course).
We've all got to make a living I suppose.
Where is the abb released from? Top or bottom? If it's from the bottom it's potentially dangerous if used as a retrievable system... why teach it? It's clearly been understood as for use outside of teaching as people continually refer to it her for use on multi-abseil descents in the alps... hardly sounds as if they are talking about teaching groups of beginners.
I'm against course in general as they seem to teach standardised systems and generally complicate things... you only have to see groups of Brits in the Alps as the sun goes down and they are still setting up their multi-point equalised belays. It also implies that you do a course, you get your bit of paper and then your an expert (after buying all the regulation gear of course).
We've all got to make a living I suppose.
In reply to Bruce Hooker:
The instructor stands at the top of the cliff/building/structure and effectively belays the punter with the safety rope as they descend. The abseiler has some control over their rate of descent by using a descender but ultimately the instructor can lock-off the safety rope. To lower a "stuck" abseiler the safety is locked off and the abseil rope which can be fixed to the anchor using an Italian hitch and two hitches to lock it off is released, rope is payed out until either the problem is solved or the abseiler can be lowered using both the safety and abseil rope together (although by now all the load is on the safety rope).
It's a system used to allow non-climbers to experience "all of the thrills" with none of the risks.
Unlike retrievable abseils......
HTH
DJ
The instructor stands at the top of the cliff/building/structure and effectively belays the punter with the safety rope as they descend. The abseiler has some control over their rate of descent by using a descender but ultimately the instructor can lock-off the safety rope. To lower a "stuck" abseiler the safety is locked off and the abseil rope which can be fixed to the anchor using an Italian hitch and two hitches to lock it off is released, rope is payed out until either the problem is solved or the abseiler can be lowered using both the safety and abseil rope together (although by now all the load is on the safety rope).
It's a system used to allow non-climbers to experience "all of the thrills" with none of the risks.
Unlike retrievable abseils......
HTH
DJ
In reply to Matt Maynard:
Don't listen to Bruce Hooker he sounds like a ...well you know.
Bryn and Deejay are on the right lines.
Good luck with your assessment.
FAO Bruce Hooker
Things have moved on a lot since the 1970's which is when your web-site suggests you did most of your climbing.
If you are just getting back into climbing after a 25 year lay-off perhaps you ought to get up to speed before spouting on. You clearly have no idea about the subject you are making sweeping statements about!
Don't listen to Bruce Hooker he sounds like a ...well you know.
Bryn and Deejay are on the right lines.
Good luck with your assessment.
FAO Bruce Hooker
Things have moved on a lot since the 1970's which is when your web-site suggests you did most of your climbing.
If you are just getting back into climbing after a 25 year lay-off perhaps you ought to get up to speed before spouting on. You clearly have no idea about the subject you are making sweeping statements about!
In reply to Bruce Hooker:
a) please understand the difference between a releasable abseil and a retreivable abseil. They are two completely different things.
b) A good SPA course should teach ways of doing things not a one way system.
Any safe method of solving a problem, be it abseil, teaching belaying or whatever should and does pass. The high standard of instructors training and assessing candidates for these awards and their (trainers and assessors) on-going apraisal/moderation ensures that this is the case.
a) please understand the difference between a releasable abseil and a retreivable abseil. They are two completely different things.
b) A good SPA course should teach ways of doing things not a one way system.
Any safe method of solving a problem, be it abseil, teaching belaying or whatever should and does pass. The high standard of instructors training and assessing candidates for these awards and their (trainers and assessors) on-going apraisal/moderation ensures that this is the case.
In reply to Sir Edmund:
I didn't know what they meant by releasable, I thought they meant relesing it from the bottom as is quite frequently suggested by poster here. Why one would want to do this still seems obscure though as a simple way would just be to clip in with a crab...
It still seems daft to take people abseiling in these conditions though, a better way is just to let them have a go on a small cliff rather than this rather Heath Robinson system. None of it is about climbing though, it's just how to teach large groups to do things they are not ready for, and to make money.
As for me being out of date, you're not exactly a youngster yourself, and in all your books you admitted you weren't much good at rock climbing so perhaps you shouldn't be spouting off either?
I didn't know what they meant by releasable, I thought they meant relesing it from the bottom as is quite frequently suggested by poster here. Why one would want to do this still seems obscure though as a simple way would just be to clip in with a crab...
It still seems daft to take people abseiling in these conditions though, a better way is just to let them have a go on a small cliff rather than this rather Heath Robinson system. None of it is about climbing though, it's just how to teach large groups to do things they are not ready for, and to make money.
As for me being out of date, you're not exactly a youngster yourself, and in all your books you admitted you weren't much good at rock climbing so perhaps you shouldn't be spouting off either?
In reply to Bruce Hooker:
Dear Bruce
I run loads of abseils for various charities. The first one i did was for Marie Curie Cancer Care as I had just recovered from cancer. Dont use cliffs - we use buildings or other interesting structures. Have had youngsters as young as 6 and elders in their late 80's. Some just have fun - some are incredibly scared and challenged. They are often doing it to support and raise money for loved ones who are ill or similar. Its maybe not much to do with "real" climbing buts its very worthwhile.
As Deejay stated earlier - the abseil rope is actually redundent - it is the safety rope that is the important one.
Cheers
David
Dear Bruce
I run loads of abseils for various charities. The first one i did was for Marie Curie Cancer Care as I had just recovered from cancer. Dont use cliffs - we use buildings or other interesting structures. Have had youngsters as young as 6 and elders in their late 80's. Some just have fun - some are incredibly scared and challenged. They are often doing it to support and raise money for loved ones who are ill or similar. Its maybe not much to do with "real" climbing buts its very worthwhile.
As Deejay stated earlier - the abseil rope is actually redundent - it is the safety rope that is the important one.
Cheers
David
In reply to Andy Say:
That is often quoted as true.
Where are statistics that suggest it is true ?
> P.S. The most deadly activity in climbing is driving to and from the crags.
That is often quoted as true.
Where are statistics that suggest it is true ?
In reply to srnet:
Gosh, what a typo.
Statistics of course can never 'prove' anything/
> Where are statistics that suggest it is true ?
Gosh, what a typo.
Statistics of course can never 'prove' anything/
In reply to srnet:
This was discussed some time ago and someone came up with some calculations that showed it to be bollocks... With or without statistics it is clearly totally irrelevant if one is considering climbing accidents.
Many a famous competent climber has died abseiling, it's essentially dangerous and you usually do it when you are at your most unsafe, ie knackered, wet, cold and worried about getting down.
This idea of doing it to raise money has always struck me as particularly odd, couldn't some other activity be chosen? Seems all a bit of a macho thing to me.
This was discussed some time ago and someone came up with some calculations that showed it to be bollocks... With or without statistics it is clearly totally irrelevant if one is considering climbing accidents.
Many a famous competent climber has died abseiling, it's essentially dangerous and you usually do it when you are at your most unsafe, ie knackered, wet, cold and worried about getting down.
This idea of doing it to raise money has always struck me as particularly odd, couldn't some other activity be chosen? Seems all a bit of a macho thing to me.
In reply to Bruce Hooker:
Bruce, as an experienced mountaineer and and a professional mountaineering instructor I am fully aware of the dangers of abseiling.
Firstly the spa scheme, which again i run many training and assessment courses throughout the year has very strict guidlines. The groups in question are not visiting any mountainous areas or areas with significant objective danger. The venues for a spa to work are single pitch, easy access to top and bottom of crag, non-tidal and roadside.
The abseils conducted gives everyone the opportunity to try something new and challenge themselves and feel some level of achievment. Having probably abseiled 1000's of children and adults over the yearsI can honestly say that it has value and give people from every walks of life a sense of achievment which we as mountaineers get from clikmbing big peaks.
The setups used are bombproof, and used on an area of crag with a good take-off and again little objective danger, with the group members in control of their decsent, while being backed-up on a seperate safety rope from above, by the instructor. Nothing like the alpine descents and retreats your talking about. There is nothing macho about this whatsoever.
I hope this clarifies the matter.
Bryn
Bruce, as an experienced mountaineer and and a professional mountaineering instructor I am fully aware of the dangers of abseiling.
Firstly the spa scheme, which again i run many training and assessment courses throughout the year has very strict guidlines. The groups in question are not visiting any mountainous areas or areas with significant objective danger. The venues for a spa to work are single pitch, easy access to top and bottom of crag, non-tidal and roadside.
The abseils conducted gives everyone the opportunity to try something new and challenge themselves and feel some level of achievment. Having probably abseiled 1000's of children and adults over the yearsI can honestly say that it has value and give people from every walks of life a sense of achievment which we as mountaineers get from clikmbing big peaks.
The setups used are bombproof, and used on an area of crag with a good take-off and again little objective danger, with the group members in control of their decsent, while being backed-up on a seperate safety rope from above, by the instructor. Nothing like the alpine descents and retreats your talking about. There is nothing macho about this whatsoever.
I hope this clarifies the matter.
Bryn
In reply to bryn:
It's clear enough for me now, I had trouble at first as I was not familiar with the vocabulary and thought this was referring to a way of abbing down a single rope then retrieving it... I've already apologised for this one.
On the wider question, I still fail to see the point of lowering 1000s of people down cliffs, what possible sense of achievement can they get from being delivered to the bottom like sacks of potatoes? And I think that the commercialisation of climbing, which is basically what all these schemes are about, is altogether ill advised. Let people discover the mountains and hills if they are motivated and go through the normal apprenticeship... the fast-food, mass production approach is in danger of destroying the very qualities of the hills that is a major part of their attraction.
Just my opinion, of course.
> I hope this clarifies the matter
It's clear enough for me now, I had trouble at first as I was not familiar with the vocabulary and thought this was referring to a way of abbing down a single rope then retrieving it... I've already apologised for this one.
On the wider question, I still fail to see the point of lowering 1000s of people down cliffs, what possible sense of achievement can they get from being delivered to the bottom like sacks of potatoes? And I think that the commercialisation of climbing, which is basically what all these schemes are about, is altogether ill advised. Let people discover the mountains and hills if they are motivated and go through the normal apprenticeship... the fast-food, mass production approach is in danger of destroying the very qualities of the hills that is a major part of their attraction.
Just my opinion, of course.
In reply to Bruce Hooker:
You're completely entitled to your opinion and I respect that. For most folk goining along on these activities, they are just having a go - like a theme park or going white water rafting, sky diving, pony trekking etc. most won't venture into the mountains and have no desire to, they just want to see what it's about, and our job as instructors is to make this achievable and as safe as possible.
You mention letting people discover for themselves - this is how I did it and got away with it, but many people try this and put themselves at great risk and end up having epics or worse - I know this as I see it week after week as being part of a busy mountain rescue team.
The modern approach to mountaineering now is mostly done by guidance on a course then personal experience. There are over 1500 professional mountaineering instructors in the UK, over 150 internation mountain guides and 10,000 (estimate) spa holders delivering some form of climbing and mountaineering.
You might not see the attraction, but a huge amount of joe public do, and keep coming back for more.
You're completely entitled to your opinion and I respect that. For most folk goining along on these activities, they are just having a go - like a theme park or going white water rafting, sky diving, pony trekking etc. most won't venture into the mountains and have no desire to, they just want to see what it's about, and our job as instructors is to make this achievable and as safe as possible.
You mention letting people discover for themselves - this is how I did it and got away with it, but many people try this and put themselves at great risk and end up having epics or worse - I know this as I see it week after week as being part of a busy mountain rescue team.
The modern approach to mountaineering now is mostly done by guidance on a course then personal experience. There are over 1500 professional mountaineering instructors in the UK, over 150 internation mountain guides and 10,000 (estimate) spa holders delivering some form of climbing and mountaineering.
You might not see the attraction, but a huge amount of joe public do, and keep coming back for more.
In reply to bryn:
.... and yet there have never been so many accidents!
The death toll in the Alps doesn't seem to have come down, quite the opposite the last time I saw some figures.
.... and yet there have never been so many accidents!
The death toll in the Alps doesn't seem to have come down, quite the opposite the last time I saw some figures.
In reply to Bruce Hooker:
http://en.petzl.com/petzl/SportConseils?Activite=6&Conseil=36
Didn't want to post this yesterday as it may have clouded the waters a wee bit,
lol,
DJ
> (In reply to bryn)
>
> [...]
>
> It's clear enough for me now, I had trouble at first as I was not familiar with the vocabulary and thought this was referring to a way of abbing down a single rope then retrieving it... I've already apologised for this one.
>
Just to throw a spanner in the works everyone. Within the context of this thread everyone is now on the right track with the SPA definition of releasable abseil. However:
>
> [...]
>
> It's clear enough for me now, I had trouble at first as I was not familiar with the vocabulary and thought this was referring to a way of abbing down a single rope then retrieving it... I've already apologised for this one.
>
http://en.petzl.com/petzl/SportConseils?Activite=6&Conseil=36
Didn't want to post this yesterday as it may have clouded the waters a wee bit,
lol,
DJ
In reply to Bruce Hooker:
....never been so many people going into the mountains. Were did you see the figures? I would be interested in seeing the numbers of people now travelling into the Alps compaired to 30 yrs ago and the accident rate.
I know its not the Alps, but Snowdon sees on average 350,000 people per year, with last year seeing just under 100 mountain rescue call outs - not a bad percentage really - and that includes climbing areas such as Llanberis Pass, Y Lliwedd, Cloggy and Dinorwig Slate (only a handful were for rock climbing).
....never been so many people going into the mountains. Were did you see the figures? I would be interested in seeing the numbers of people now travelling into the Alps compaired to 30 yrs ago and the accident rate.
I know its not the Alps, but Snowdon sees on average 350,000 people per year, with last year seeing just under 100 mountain rescue call outs - not a bad percentage really - and that includes climbing areas such as Llanberis Pass, Y Lliwedd, Cloggy and Dinorwig Slate (only a handful were for rock climbing).
In reply to katonka:
Exactly, but within the context of this thread it's the purpose and the safety line of the SPA setup that's important.
DJ
Exactly, but within the context of this thread it's the purpose and the safety line of the SPA setup that's important.
DJ
In reply to bryn:
What matters is the number of accidents and deaths, not the percentage. I heven't seen British figures but in the French alps (I live in France) it seems to go up very year... more people, more accidents. Snowdon was madness last time I was there - about 5 or 6 years ago.
What matters is the number of accidents and deaths, not the percentage. I heven't seen British figures but in the French alps (I live in France) it seems to go up very year... more people, more accidents. Snowdon was madness last time I was there - about 5 or 6 years ago.
In reply to Bruce Hooker:
the highest rubbish tip in the UK . take a couple of bin liners for the descent one will not do ... thank goodness its all contained there .. honey pot/ trap.
the highest rubbish tip in the UK . take a couple of bin liners for the descent one will not do ... thank goodness its all contained there .. honey pot/ trap.
In reply to Ian McNeill: Two years ago we went up Snowdon, with a bunch of kids, absolutely heaving on top. Kids went back down the PYG (with adequate supervision blah blah blah) while we came back down over Crib Goch. We hardly encountered anyone on the ridge at all. Weird.
In reply to Rob Exile Ward:
We nearly got trampled by a train load of Japanese tourist marchging gaily down waving their ski-sticks like something out of the Seven Samurais! Why do people encourage people, I'm sure they don't really want to be there half the time.
We nearly got trampled by a train load of Japanese tourist marchging gaily down waving their ski-sticks like something out of the Seven Samurais! Why do people encourage people, I'm sure they don't really want to be there half the time.
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