UKC

On Bank Holiday Monday (28th May) Steve McClure, 36, of Sheffield redpointed a new route at Malham Cove, a route that is perhaps the UK's hardest sport route and will no doubt emerge, due to Steve's track record and credibility amongst the world's top climbers, as one of the hardest sport routes in the world, along with Chris Sharma's Realisation 9a+, at Ceuse, France and Ramón Julián's La Rambla Direct 9a+ at Siurana, Spain.

With insights from Steve about his route.

Read more at http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

Inspirational!!!

Well done!!!!

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

Nice report, Mick - good to have a bit more depth than usual.

As you say, it's a shame that the route probably won't get the attention from overseas visitors that it deserves - though watching the rain out the window just now, somewhat understandable.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: I think that photo has been fiddled with. Or else he has some bright red snakes climbing with him.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

So what's so controversial about, say, Coup de Grace 9a+ FA: Dave Graham? Or the Andrada one?

In reply to Chris F:

Aye....a bit pressured as usual Chris. Would have loved to import it in Freehand and put vector lines on it and done a proper job, but lots to do.

Maybe later this week.

In reply to luke skywalker:

They've both been repeated and confirmed at the grade, although claiming dave graham hasn't got the track record to claim 9a+ seems a bit mad.

In reply to necromancer85:

Ya, let's compare Coup de Grace to Steve's new one:

Graham: 6 routes at 9a, some of which are his own FA.
McLure: 3 routes at 9a, all his own FAs.

So which claim of 9a+ has greater credibility Mick - Steve's or Dave's?

In reply to ignoranceisnoexcursion: Equal credibility.

Andy F

In reply to ignoranceisnoexcursion:

As ever, such is the nature of the dymanic medium that we inhabit, it is healthy to question the news reports and add even further information and correct mistakes.

Seems like McClure and Graham have equal claims to join Realisation and La Rambla Direct, but both their routes are as yet unrepeated.

I will quite gladly, as always, add an addendum. After all, are we all not part of the news gathering process, and in this medium, unlike print, credited as such for posterity?

Can I eat my tea first though!

M

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

Missing from the "hard" list:

Orujo - 9a+
Flat Mountain - 9a+
Bimbaluna - 9a/9a+
Flex Luthor - 9a+
Definicion de Resistenca Democrata - 9a+
La Novena Enemida - 9a+
Coup De Grace - 9a+

Some debateable, others less so. But should all be mentionned on equal footing as McClure's route: proposed grade, still unrepeated.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: Erm, shouldn't this report just say UK's hardest route? Violent Illusion is a V15 with 2 pre-clipped bolts, a highball boulder problem given a route grade, admittedly the hardest moves on a 'route' anywhere.

Andy F

In reply to andy farnell: Sorry, I meant Violent New Breed of course.. Duh

Andy F

In reply to andy farnell:

Come on Andy, dont let a trad climber correct you about a sport route

Its called Violent New Breed

In reply to andy farnell:

You beat me to it

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: i think if steves says its harder than 9a cos hes nutoriously modest and apparently dave grham not so, but if hes done 6 9as then a 9a+ is probs rite

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: The new route Corona from Markus Bock in the Frankenjura is also graded 9a+ !

In reply to Cragdog al: Have heard Dave Graham speak out against grade-inflation quite a few times in various articles so (unless his actions totally contradict his vocal stance) I wouldn't say he could be accused of unfair grading.

Would imagine it would be quite a feat to be more modest than Steve.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
I was lucky enough to see Steve on a few of his attempts the week before he got the redpoint. On both occasions when he got through the crux and was hanging from his toes shaking out, the catwalk was absolutely silent, everyone hanging off bolts/gri gris and staring up at him. The most awesome bit of climbing I've ever seen.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: I posted this on another thread but this one is better read so:

What is truely remarkable is the fact that Steve has been the only British climber pushing the absolute limit in sport climbing for the last 10 years. Moon, Moffat, Leach, Atkinson, Dunne etc had competition wheras Steve has been out there on his own. His motivation to keep pushing himself to new levels is outstanding, probably never seen before in UK climbing.

Andy F

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

Absolutely baffling that, in a thread all about the world's hardest routes, no mention is STILL made of Akira, 9b, done years and years ago.

In reply to Waldmeister:

But it goes down easier with a slice of lime. 8c maybe

In reply to andy farnell:


Couldn't agree more. Total respect. Pity Malc Smith never quite made the move to provide that cometition. Not that I'm dissin' him likes!!

In reply to Dom Orsler: I thought it was about Steve McClure doing a new route. Why should it get a mention?

In reply to Dom Orsler:

Dom, it was mentioned on the original thread before the news item.

http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=244849&v=1#3600759

I could tell you hadn't noticed it, because I'm sure describing Akira as "a really grotty route through some old quarry cave thing that was 9b" would have caused you to melt down.



(Interested that the link I posted to the PlanetFear story on that thread seems to have been deleted by someone other than me..... I'm sure I didn't imagine posting it! I know your report is far more detailed Mick, but was that really necessary?)

In reply to Peter Walker:

I'm fascinated by Akira and it's history; it says so much about the climbing community and the odd, often almost self-defeating standards to which we hold ourselves.

Akira's clearly atrociously difficult (in fact I've heard it said that there are two moves in it which nobody has ever done except the FA) and hasn't been short of suitors, but for the very reason that it's unrepeated because it's brick, we can't know for sure whether it's really that hard!

Confused? I am!

In reply to 220bpm:

Malc moved onto bouldering, Rich Simpson would have been competition but moved onto Boxing, Neil Carson moved to France (IIRC) and no-one else had stood upto the plate.

Andy F

In reply to Peter Walker:

Almost any route that starts in a deep cave is going to seem a bit grotty, granted, but the area in which this route exists is quite pleasant. And to the other poster who said Akira had been mentioned in the original article, yes, it was, and semi-dismissed as 'bouldery'. It's no more or less bouldery than Gaskins' VNB, which is discussed in this thread.

Yes, I'm a worshipper of the mighty Rouhling, and yes, I have a well-deserved rep on UKC for banging on about him, but with good reason. He's climbed some of the hardest lines ever and is constantly ignored in discussions about the hardest lines ever climbed. Odd.

It's also not on to dismiss Chilam Balam as bollocks because Dani and Chris don't believe he climbed it. Innocent until proven guilty, etc. You can't pass judgement on who you believe and who you don't (queue old discussion re: Dunne, etc) until you have evidence. Our entire environment is faith-based. Look at the controversy caused by Bock questioning Gaskins' ticks. Nonsense.

In reply to Dom Orsler:


The corollary of this is that we should believe anything anyone claims q.v. Si O'Connor

In reply to Tyler:

and Maestri.

In reply to Dom Orsler:

What actually happened with Bock and John Gaskins? I realise that he questioned the validity of John's ascent of a problem (or some problems) of his (Gossip?) but I can't find anything else about it.

Most importantly WHY he would question John's integrity when he is universally respected as one of the strongest climbers in the world.

Incidentally I used to climb with John before he got really good and even then he could pull on holds that way better climbers couldn't. The guy has the most unbelievable natural finger strength I have ever seen.

In reply to seagull:

It's not worth digging up in detail, but in a nutshell, Marcus went public in expressing serious doubt regarding John's rapid ticking of several hard problems from Marcus' hood when what he should have done is call John and chat about it. That was the real problem, I think; going public before John even knew anything about it. Marcus ended up looking like a bit of a tool.

In response to the other chap who suggests the corollary of my previous statement is that we should believe anything anyone says; yes, until evidence or proof surfaces to the contrary! Sharms trotted up Chilam Balam and found the abundant chalk marks ran out just before the really hard bit, which may be regarded as evidence that Bernabe didn't do it. The belayer has mysteriously disappeared; more evidence. And no-one else saw him do it. As has been previously discussed to death, unless the ascent is filmed and/or has numerous, credible, independant eye-witnesses, there is always hypothetical room for doubt.

Just because a tiny minority abuse the system doesn't mean we should throw it out. There's nothing you can do about people who claim hard ascents when no-one is around, other than consider the evidence. What grade does this person regularly climb? If they're an 8A boulderer and they claim a new 8C with no intervening ticks, then one has to wonder. If their beta and description is shaky... And if they can't get close to any of the moves on repeat, then you see where this is going.

Honest people do climb hard things when they're on their own, but dishonest people also lie about similar scenarios, and it will never change. The truth usually surfaces, one way or another.

In reply to Dom Orsler:

Has Akira had a repeat Dom? Have people attempted it?

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

Numerous people have attempted it, but so far no-one has even managed all the moves, let alone get close to sending. Jibe Triboult, then one of the most famous sport climbers in the world, led the charge in publically doubting Fred. He went to try some of the moves and claimed some of them were 'impossible'. He challenged Fred to show him the moves. They met and Fred did this. Jibe was absolutely stunned. Jibe publically retracted.

Andrada has been on it and a list of others, all world class and many who have climbed 9a/+.

What's it going to take?

There will always be a large lag period during which the hardest route in the world goes unrepeated. During this period, does this mean it is not allowed to hold a grade?

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

Yeah Mick, there's an article somewhere (maybe on 8a.nu, but it was in the mags written by that Bjorn bloke who runs the site) describing a leading American fellow and possibly french bloke who visited Akira with Fred and were mightily impressed by him. He repeated all the hardest moves and stuff.

I'm with Dom, Fred's a legend. Imagine what he could achieve if he lost both of his legs in a car accident.

In reply to Dom Orsler:

Has anyone repeated Hugh and if so what grade did that settle at? Is the route morpho as I heard it was (being a big dyno and all, mind you FR might be tiny!)

In reply to Tyler:

Yes - Hugh's been repeated. Don't recall who did it (Italian guy, ummm....). Grade stuck.

In reply to Dom Orsler:

Someone Jolly (Italien bloke), Pierre Bollinger, Dai Koyamada I think.

In reply to Paz:

Cheat! Liar! Over the years, many climbers have become objects of derision because the claims they made did not pass muster. Once the negative publicity gets rolling, it seems there’s no stopping it. In the sport-climbing world, perhaps no man has received as much bad press as Fred Rouhling, a Frenchman who made the news in the mid-1990s. In 1995, his infamy hit international proportions when he claimed the 9b grade for one of his routes, Rouhling’s other hard routes were almost as controversial. More recently, he’s been climbing hard again, and last winter, we sent a pair of American climber/journalists to visit him and see if they could get the real scoop.

http://www.climbing.com/exclusive/features/fredrouhling/

ALSO as regards Chilam Bilam

The most colorful contender was Bernabé Fernández, who climbed way out on a limb, once again, claiming 5.15c — two grades harder than Realization — for Chilam Bilam in Spain, a 270-foot rising cave traverse that required a special 90-meter rope. Fernandez has established routes that may have been Spain’s first 5.14b, 5.14c, 5.14d and 5.15a respectively, but the doctoring of difficulty with artificial holds and Fernandez’s lack of a track record outside his home region cast enough doubt on his effort that we’re unwilling to champion it, especially since he refused to humor the Spanish climbing press who wanted some proof of the astronomical rating claim. Compounding the international community’s doubt, Fernández has announced his “retirement” from hard climbing.

AND Akira

Rouhling’s route, which he gave 9b (5.15b) in 1995, is almost entirely a bouldering roof, with only a short section of roped climbing. While several top climbers can attest to Akira’s extreme difficulty, a bouldering traverse grade seems more appropriate than a sport-pitch grade.

http://www.climbing.com/exclusive/features/sport03/

In reply to 220bpm:
Pity Malc Smith never quite made the move to provide that cometition.

Malc did True North (8c) a few weeks ago, and has said he wants to get on Steve's Northern Lights. So there might be some competition coming.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

Fred has agreed that the hardest bits of Akira could qualify as boulder problems, but even then, if you link it all to the lip with no rope, you may well have the world's first 8C, done twelve years ago, which is, arguably, equaly significant in terms of world firsts to 9b sport. Calling it a boulder problem is kind of balls IMHO. If you say it's a boulder problem because of the height of the crux, then why not say the same of Gaskins' VNB or even Hubble? People have highballed this high. The final 30ft of Akira from the lip to the top has to be roped, as it would result in a very big fall and, while 'only' 8a/+, it is, nonetheless, part of the route.

Calling it a boulder problem is the last refuge of the naysayers, now that it's validity, difficulty and credibility have been clearly established.

In reply to Dom Orsler:

Ah well, such is climbing. No real timekeepers, no judges....

In the words of Steve McClure..

"What counts is it's a great route that tested me right to my limit. Had it been 9b or 8c the journey from start to finish would have been no more or less rewarding."

In reply to Serpico:

Again. Before this route was Northern Lights it was Ben Moon's project. Then after it was Ben Moon's project, before it was Northern Lights it was Malc's project. Lets hope he does better on it this time, it would be good for it to get a repeat.

In reply to Dom Orsler:

Yeah, I mean basically the worlds boulderers would then dismiss it as only a font 8c traverse so he can't win. Malc gave his new link up in Parisella's Cave 9a. I'm sure it felt like a route to hm, lie I said beofre I wish he solo'd it. I suppose this brings up the question of what to do with Witness the Fitness - be interesting to compare the number of moves.

With Hubble, I'm sure whatever your ultimate style of ascent most people use the bolts to work the moves, and I guess a lot of people would just have as many bolts preclipped as they felt necessary (though I think I heard something about Malc clipping when he got on it a second time)

In reply to Dom Orsler:


Yes, but only above good landings. If you fell off Hubble you'd land on a 70 degree rock slope and finish another 15ft lower, and similarly with Violent New Breed. The landing under Akira is flat, and you can easily fall onto it. Akira occupies a grey area. Almost all the hard climbing is a boulder problem, at best it is a boulder/route link up.

In reply to Agent Moog:

This notion that you have to have danger without the bolts for a piece of climbing to qualify for a sport grade sounds to me like a load of cock.

If the climbing was on gear it would still be the first 9b.

Surely you can understand how other people would just view it as yet more Fred bashing? He's done the hnourable thing and demonstrated the route to back up the claim, does he have to go an do another one now?

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

I totally understand where Steve is coming from, but it does annoy me a bit when top climbers sit back and wag the finger at the rest of us for concerning ourselves with grades, when they used grades throughout their entire careers to climb the ladder of difficulty and to gain international notoriety. I don't mean to suggest Steve or anyone else is seeking fame and fortune through the bandying about of grades, but I do think it slightly invidious for top climbers to ridicule grades. They're extremely useful and important, while, granted, they do also cause problems.

Sharma shuns grades and declines to grade stuff, although I'm not sure where his sponsorship deals would go if he only chose to 'seek the perfect move' rather than the hardest, with the highest grade. Spending the rest of his days on Font 8A and French 8b+ might not excite Prana, even though the moves might be beautiful and challenging, even for Chris...

In reply to Paz:

It's got bugger all to do with danger. Dom was saying that Hubble could be viewed as a boulder problem too as its crux is also boulderable, when it patently isn't if you've seen Hubble in the flesh. There's no problem with Akira being given a sport grade, the problem arises when you compare it to other sport routes. If you are a sport climber, routes that you do mostly as a boulder problem then tie on for the last few feet are always going to be viewed with some distain over a proper tie on at the floor route. You can argue the toss as much as you like, but at the end of the day Akira is some sort of hybrid creation between sport route and boulder problem. Personally I think this style of climbing will become more recognised in the future, already we have Ben's Roof into Evolution, and Dani Andrada's 9a+ boulder problem into route link in Rodella, but for now even those people are slightly unsure about what they have created.

In reply to Dom Orsler:


Perfect marketing, whatever his reasons; let others grade your routes and problems for you. Actually that is probably the best way.

Propogating the legend and the myth sells the product.

The US is far better at it than the Brits.

BTW...where's the McClure video? Should have been on YouTube or GoogleVideo by now!

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

It was filmed by Rich Heap for a forthcoming film I presume. I would have thought that he doesn't want to ruin his scoop.

In reply to Agent Moog:

Presume?

Get a short sequence up quick....follow the wisdom of Big Up, Hot Aches and Posing...!

In reply to Agent Moog:

ALright OK.

However I thought Dom was saying that you (Agent Moog) can no more dismiss Akira as a problem than you can Hubble, though as you say Hubble's above rock (and you'd have to trail a rope anyway probably, unless you wanted to solo 7b+ or somehting to the top of the Tor). I can see waht you're saying as people don't know what these things are yet, but I think it's harsh to say they're regarded with disdain. Normally people just acknowledge that a piece of climbing is harder to work from bolts than it is if it were next to the ground, particularly whenever anyone suggests 8b for Powerband. After you've put in the amount of time required on these routes at the moment, I'd have thought how hard to work something becomes a bit academic by the time you're going for the redpoint.
routes

In reply to Paz:


So you think that most people think of Bens Roof into Evolution in the same way they think of Rainshadow (both 9a)? I'd say they regard the first one as a (hard) training link that Steve did one boring Sunday, and the other as one of the hardest routes in the country.

In reply to Agent Moog:

9a probably best describes both. But as you say, that's a link up whereas Akira's all independent.

What would you grade it if he linked Ben's into Mutation?

In reply to Paz:

It's only a link up becuase it was first done as two seperate things, otherwise it's just as valid a piece of climbing as Akira - a cave boulder start into a route finish. I bet Fred first led the top bit seperately first, before linking in the roof section - are you now saying that the validity of Akira as a route is based solely on the fact that Fred didn't name the route part seperately first?

In reply to Agent Moog:

I think it depends on other things than that. The thing at the Tor was the product of Moon, moffatt and Mclure. Akira was all Fred's so he can claim what he likes about it.

I think if it felt like a boulder problem to Fred he'd have given it a boulder problem grade, he's done that with parts of it to illustrate it to other people, and other problems, but it's so long as it is it's best graded with a route grade. It's a lot longer than Ben's roof.

For the record, I don't say why all those things at Hollow Moutain Cave shouldn't be given route grades instead. It'd stop a lot of punters claiming they've climbed font 8b, 8c or whatever.

There's a lot of talk about Akira being a linkup, much like Ben's roof into Evoloution, but Akira is actually quite high off the ground - Fred used a "four-foot stepladder" to work the moves, which isn't quite the same as just pulling on and playing.

Also, the first section is apparently 45 feet long. Or 14m, for people like me who don't understand feet. That's a loooong boulder problem. I just googled -

Hubble is 10m
Violent New Breed is 6m

And Akira has another 30 feet (10m) of 8a+ climbing above. In total - 75ft/24m. This is not a boulder problem.

As to whether the last section of climbing has any merit, I'm sure after the difficulties of the first 14m it would feel pretty knackering. Isn't the difference between Huber's 8c+ finish and the 9a+ of Realization supposed to be just 5m of 7b+ climbing?*

Anyway, look, Akira - how is this a boulder problem:

youtube.com/watch?v=dSSxk71e-2k&

It's a route. It's just unusual because some of it doesn't require a rope.

*Or someting like that. I'm just going off what someone said on here somewhere. Always dangerous, I know...

In reply to robin mueller:

Errrrrm?

Looks more like bouldering to me.

The Ent

In reply to Enty:

But the physiological demands are totally different. it's quite an arbitrary distinction to assign bouldering or route grades by whether you take a rope or not. Surely a better measure is whether the climbing is strength or endurance focussed?

In reply to Serpico:

Yep, and I don't want to get into an argument about what is a route and what is a boulder problem. Oh yes I do.

We did a problem at Hueco which was 40 feet long and your arse was never more than 2 foot of the ground. Boulder problem or route?

(This is not a dig at Fred or anyone else.)

The Ent

In reply to Serpico:

Then Staminaband is a route, as is the virgin traverse at Almscliffe, Hubble is a boulder problem, as is Energy Vampire at Malham etc etc. Doesn't work see?

In reply to Agent Moog:
There's a subtle difference between calling something a route and giving it a French grade. Many of the climbs you mention above are traverses, there's generally less controversy about giving them French grades. Energy Vampire is definitely a route as after the start it's still Fr7b/7b+ to the top which requires aerobic recovery at the rest, and anaerobic endurance to the top. Hubble is probably better graded using a Font/V grade, but I'll leave it to those who've done it to decide. Another example would be the Craig-Y-Longridge traverse. Until recently it wasn't highball, doesn't need a rope, but at over 300 feet long can hardly be given a boulder grade. When grading I think the important thing is having something to compare to, and that I believe comes down to length and style, not the mechanics (rope Vs pads, etc) of the ascent.

In reply to robin mueller:


First time I've seen that - cheers for the link. Though it has to be said, it looks remarkably similar in style to Witness the Fitness.

In reply to Serpico:

This is an interesting discussion but I think you're contradicting yourself slightly. Hubble also has a 7b+/7c section of climbing after the hard bit and therefore (by your definition of Energy Vampire) cannot be classed/graded as a boulder problem (which it certainly shouldn't be imo).

It's obviously a grey area but I think a certain amount of flexibility is necessary. I've always felt that it makes more sense to give long problems or traverses route grades as that's what they feel like. But it's also ok to give them a font grade as most people understand that there can be stamina problems and power problems. e.g. Hooligan start at 8a+ and Staminaband at 8a could not be more different but we can understand the difficulty of both by knowing the grade and the length of the problems.

Likewise we can give the same route grade to a 40m pump fest and a 9m power route with one hard move. It's always been like this so I don't really see a problem.

In reply to seagull:
That's why I said "probably" and "but I'll leave it to those who've done it to decide" because I've absolutely no direct experience of the route and was only going off what others had said about the route (including Moon).

In reply to Dom, Paz, Moog, Serpico etc:

Interesting discussion guys.

One quick thought - if Akira is viewed as a boulder problem, how is that dismissive to Fred's achievement?? It would still be utterly sodding hard as a stamina problem. If Malc's cave link gets V13 and F9a, then maybe Akira is V15 (or more?!). So Fred got the world's first Font 8c boulder problem (before even Simon Connor...) - that's pretty good surely??

BTW, you guys seen the bonus footage of Fred on his F9a+ route on the First Ascent DVD?? Very impressive, possibly the hardest-looking hard climbing I've seen footage of, truly "sick" as the kids of today might say .

In reply to Serpico:

Yeah, fair play. I just wanted to clarify that (IMO) there's no way Hubble should be classed as a problem despite the fact that you can grade the hard section as such. The top bit's pretty tricky and if I remember rightly Ben actually fell off it on redpoint once. I certainly felt that just linking the crux sequence wouldn't mean I had it in the bag (but then I have absolutely no stamina so that's natural).

In reply to Fiend:

Spot on. Hard is hard. In some ways doing the first font 8c back then is even more impressive.

In reply to Fiend:

The best bit of the the DVD - one of the few bits of hard climbing footage that actually looks as hideously nails-hard as you feel a F9a+/5.15 should be. What's more amazing though is Fred's evident joy whilst cranking on all those horrible looking holds. The entire sequence of him at that crag is incredibly cheering: the chimp-like energy of the man and his happiness at campusing about on monos.

In reply to Agent Moog:

"Dom was saying that Hubble could be viewed as a boulder problem too as its crux is also boulderable, when it patently isn't if you've seen Hubble in the flesh"

I've seen Hubble in the flesh, many times, and I would tend to disagree with you that the crux is not boulderable. I've highballed that high, although not on moves quite that tricky. Others have, though.

In reply to Dom Orsler:

Jason "Marilyn Manson" Kehl on the Fly at Rumney?

Such a sweet boy despite...........

http://www.cryptochild.com/Content2.html

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

Well, yeah, he was one of them I weas thinking of. Graham and Sharms have also done some pretty high and sick hard stuff which would land a hefty E-grade in the peak. It's not beyond the realms of reason to imagine any of these guys bouldering something as hard as Hubble's crux (which really just aint that hard anymore). Would that make it a boulder problem? Not in my book.

In reply to Dom Orsler:

In part true as the crux of Hubble is only 8B (!), in part false 'cos it is still that hard. Name me one other route (apart from Akira or VNB) that has a move or set of moves as hard.

Andy F

In reply to andy farnell:

Off the top of my head, Graham's Coup de Grace (9a/9a+) has bouldery sections estimated at V11 (8A) - V13 (8B).

I'm sure there are more. I'll do some digging.

But the thing about Hubble is, it is soooo short. I was saying that 8B aint that hard anymore, which, at the top levels, is true. Guys like Graham, Sharma, Schwaigers, Zangerln, Nichole eat up 8B's.

In reply to andy farnell:

Other two that have been graded as 8B;

Mono-dyno on Hugh.

Opening moves on Action Directe.

Three in 15 mins response ain't bad...

In reply to Dom Orsler:

I'm pretty sure neither of these are 8B. Fred said that Hugh was, in boulder grades 8a,7b,8a - see http://escalade-alsace.ifrance.com/article/hugh-dossier.html , and I spoke to Pierre about it in the Frankenjura who thought about the same. The opening moves on Action Directe aren't 8B either, 8A? I can't remember exactly what Rich told me.

Hubble boulderable? Well I wouldn't like to. Although the actual hardest move is quite low, the top of the hard bit is quite high. Even with a flat landing I'd want a mountain of spotters and pads, and with it being a rocky drop instead, I think it would be very dangerous, broken bits for sure. Especially as you would not drop feet first on some moves. Check this photo, and decide if you'd like to explode off backwards (which is how you'd fall) without a rope.

http://www.freakclimbing.com/Freak/People/Ben%20Moon/Ben-Moon---Hubble.jpg

As for Hubble being "easy" and only 8B, well I'm not fully convinced. Hubble was given the 8B tag back when 8B was considered the limit, hence, Hubble got the limit grade. If it were at Hueco, or Magic Wood would it be graded 8B? I don't know for definite but I doubt it. It's harder than the pre-broken Superman, which in turn was given 8A+, but generally considered to be harder. Also Hubble is very specific - it's nothing like the current batch of hard boulders, instead being proper old-school polished knarl, like the start of Revelations (which despite being only "7C+" for the normal method regularly shuts down people that cream 7C+ boulders. In fact it shuts down people that cream 8A and 8A+ boulders too). That's not to say Hubble isn't 8B, just not to get carried away with a grade. I'm sure Sharma et al can piss many 8Bs but I'm sure they get stopped by a few too.

Anyway, what was this thread about? Not Hubble I think. Nice one Steve.

A good friend of mine swears that a route near Canmore called Crimes of Passion (7b+) is a complete sandbag, and is at least 9a+ as well.

In reply to Kurt:

Kurt - no response to RupertD? After all, he's refuting what you told me!

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

I've seen on 8a.nu and on Climbing.com that this thread is "a debate over the grade" and yet when I look carefully I don't think that any person has suggested that Steve's grade is unreasonable.

It would be much more accurate to say that the debate is over Mick's apparent putdown of other top climbers such as Dani Andrada and Dave Graham and their unrepeated routes for which 9a+ has been claimed.

In reply to Dom Orsler:

Dom, I was guessing.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

I guess the grading debate of cutting edge routes will roll on and on for ever - but for a light hearted view check out Dave Graham's comments on this link.

youtube.com/watch?v=dhWaJPEoJzQ&

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

Maybe renaming Akira 'A Rose By Any Other Name' would help prevent these debates?!

jcm

A work colleague's just shown me a picture in her copy of The Mirror. Full page photo of Steve on the no hands rest on his route.

The article is a load of balls about his "batman style" move (the rest) but despite this it's great to see him getting national publicity. The last time I can remember a hard route getting any notice from the national papers it was when Mark Leach did Mandela.

Well deserved and hopefully his sponsors will be happy!

In reply to Fiend:

Because it's a traverse. Are you telling me that you've never witnessed a the extra waddage attributed to `up 8bs' and `up 8cs'. Boulderers aren't interested in them, unless they're also into sport climbing. Malc gave his Parisella's link up French 9a, and no one takes the V massive grades of Hollow Mountain Cave seriously. Font 8bs can't have that amount of jugs on, it's just not right.

Steve's called the route OVERSHADOW by the way. Good name imo.

In reply to Paz:

I just watched the Akira video again. The editing makes it look a lot longer than it is, with several moves repeated from various angles.

I counted about 20 hand moves, not including minor adjustments on holds. That's actually not that many - in fact it's about the same number as Dreamtime - and no-one calls that a traverse.

Dreamtime - youtube.com/watch?v=9L5PxhqHJVs&

Akira is also certainly nothing like the hollow mountain cave V16 ( http://www.climbing.com/news/hotflashes/koyainaust/ ) which has over 60 moves. And the holds don't really look like jugs (did you see the twin monos?!)

So maybe a boulder problem grade is fair enough...if you only do half the route (to the lip, as shown in video).

In reply to seagull:

"I've called the route Overshadow. It overshadows all my other achievements in terms or difficulty, commitment and focus, and makes a fine companion to the neighbouring route, 'rainshadow'."

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

Is the point of all those bat hang/ technique threads that Steve found a bat hang on this route?

In reply to Paz:

Yeah there's a hands off rest. The papers have picked up on it as if it's something new and are reporting as such rather than reporting that the route is rock hard (which most people wouldn't understand anyway).

In reply to seagull:

Well I certainly won't be the one to suggest that a no hands rest might mean it's not 9a+ (runs for cover). I hope it's not inevitable that someone else (probably also someone who's never been to Malham) will.

More to the point, when you do a bat hang, do you have to lock off a half sit up position upside down, or is this only necessary where your feet might slip off like on pull up bars, to keep your centre of mass below the bar? Think about one of those hanging dolphin wooden pendulum ornaments you make at school. I find I have to do this (lock off), and so unless I can actually get a foot jam in a bat hang isn't that much of a rest for me as my pitifully weak abs get tired quickly.

In reply to Paz:

It is a foot jam.

In reply to Paz: >Well I certainly won't be the one to suggest that a no hands rest might mean it's not 9a+

It might have some validity if Steve had actually ever hung like a bat whilst attempting to redpoint his route, however the fact is, the hands free hang was only employed for the photo shoot and looked to be anything BUT a rest !

In reply to seagull:

If you do have to bat hang a flake do you have to do a half sit up, like I said though?

In reply to seagull:


Not sure it's a no hands rest, he certainly didn't seem to use it as such.

In reply to Tyler:

Maybe so. It's probably just bullshit reporting in the newspapers. Not really important anyway.

In reply to Paz:

As you said before it depends if you can lock your foot / feet in the hold properly. Every no hands rest is slightly different though and some (like you say) are not worth the effort. It's all a question of leverage.

In reply to seagull: I've just heard Steve on Radio 5 explaining how you bang the crampons into the rock and then stand on them... or something like that

It seems the only thing they're really interested in is the bat hang ... pah punters !

In reply to lms and all:

But really, what do you expect? That shot of him hanging upside down, it's totally _amazing_ ... it's just so so so photogenic... and so strange ... any good picture editor with a brain in his or her head is going to be after it. Any good interviewer is going to ask him about it. Th world outside climbers got used to pics of gurning guys with big muscles long ago ... and that's all a climbing shot says to a non-climber... but they're not so used to seeing them upside down.

In reply to gingerkate:

I think for the sake of historical accuracy and because I'm anal about things like this and bored it should be pointed out that Dave Pegg took a rest like this on his Kilnsey route, Aborigonal Sin 'back in the day', as I think 1989 is now refered to as.

In reply to Tyler:

And how does everyone think Wombat got it's name? The guide even mentions something similar about Happy Landings.

In reply to Tyler:
Yes, that should be pointed out, you are quite right. My husband (non climber) just now came home and told me that a climber at Malham had just invented this thing where he hung upside down etc etc ... so the misinformation is travelling at a fair speed.

But all the same, it's a bloody marvelous photo.

In reply to Tyler:

I remember the photo in one of the mags at the time. The route doesn't seem to get much traffic, despite (or because of) the out there position.

Andy F

In reply to robin mueller:

I disagree; but am I still the only Brit who's ever been near Akira?

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

He made it into the Metro too!

AMazing how he managed to hang upside down from his tip-toes to shake out!

Gnarly stuff

In reply to 2pints:
Also got the Times Telegraph and Daily Record

In reply to Kipper: I seem to recall reading somewhere that Malc Smith and John Gaskins looked at it. But then again, Akira does seem to attract rumours like sh*t does flies.

And in response to the boulder problem vs route debate, you could, theoretically, say that hundreds of 'hard-off-the-deck' sport routes have boulder starts followed by roped climbing of a different character. Just because Akira has two clearly demarced sections, one of which *looks* a bit like a boulder problem, doesn't mean it is.

And if anything is a boulder problem, it's VNB, bad landing or not. Six metres...! Come on!

In reply to Paz:
true there are large holds on this problem the problem is linking them with a variety of tricky probs-7b-8a+ all of a roof variety.This sort of problem bares little resemblance I think to stuff like Stamina band or Lothorien at KiW.It is also pretty aesthetic to look at being also one of the more impressive bouldering[close to ground-no rope needed] lines in the world.