UKC

"In what is almost perfection there are two weaknesses. It won't fit in your back pocket and if you leave it displayed on the pile of gear you have left at the crag foot it is attractive enough to get pinched. You have been warned."

writes Dave Gregory about the BMC's new Stanage guidebook

"I have two criticisms. In my opinion they should have gone the whole hog and gone for A5. This wouldn't please Dave Gregory however as he has a bookshelf packed with guidebooks that only fit the traditional foolscap size. Size is important, small is sometimes good, but in this case a bigger page size would have doubled, nay tripled the impact of the photographs and varied text."

writes Mick Ryan about the BMC's new Stanage guidebook

Read both reviews here: http://www.ukclimbing.com/gear/review.php?id=452

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

"Being a Northerner, I don't know Stanage very well. But with the publication of the BMC's new definitive Stanage guidebook I might have to start travelling south to the Peaks more often."

Nice troll Mick, should keep the responses high.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:


..."But with the publication of the BMC's new definitive Stanage guidebook I might have to start travelling south to the Peaks"



Now Mr Ryan - please right this wrongness!! ;0)

(I know you did it to wind al, Gordon and me up!!!)

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: It really is a superb guidebook - I've had my copy for a week now and I've been reading it cover to cover!

It's a measure of the high standard of recent guidebooks that really we've come to expect a top quality production. All the usual stuff - great photos, inspiring route descriptions, clear topos, good directions - are all perfect. These took thousands of hours of painstaking work to put together, and naturally we dismiss it all and mention the comma that is missing on p329 or the grade of that obscure boulder problem ;/

Some of the things I love about the new guide, above and beyond "the usual":

double page photo overviews that give a clear position to different buttresses and show the descents

the essays and extracts from older guides. eg, "conquering the unconquerables" and "who the hell was helfenstein?"

the bouldering circuits (and I'm not even a boulder)

the favourite fives. some good inspiring stuff

If I'm pressed to come up with some minor niggles... would have prefered a blue spine to match the other recent BMC guides, would have liked to keep brief FA details under the route description instead of at the back, the favourite five texts are occasionally a bit too long & too weighted towards the higher grades.

99.999%

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

Two excellent reviews of an excellent guide.
Mick is wrong on one point though - the descriptions are not always on the same pages as the appropriate topos, but (and this time it is a big BUT) finding the description from the topo and visa versa is no longer a problem as they both run in the same direction!


Chris

In reply to Chris Craggs:
.

Yes, some overlap now and again.

In reply to Chris Craggs:

So Chris, now that the world has caught up with you, what are you going to do to stay ahead?

3-D holographic photo-topos?

Inset touch-pads giving the texture of the rock on each route?

Inbuilt web-interface linked to met-office rain radar?

User-configurable grades?

In reply to Coel Hellier:

Probably just stick at producing four volumes a year rather than one every eighteen months!


Chris

In reply to Chris Craggs:

Meiow! ;0) (it was only - umm 15 at the least!!)


- thats true - but then we are but a lowly rag tag band of volunteers, bushwhacking about the craggs with soggy scripts in hands and fingers up noses...

Whilst RF is headed up by a master genius with a global band of proffessional photoghraphers and writers to do his doings - how can we compete!?!

;0P

Si


PS: Nick - I agree about the spine - blue would be the same as the last 3 and sit well with them on the shelf. But this is stanage - and it deserves to be different! ;0)

In reply to Chris Craggs: lol.....

What other gems to rockfax have comming up?

I'll probable get the Yorks Grit and DWS guides.

Cornwall, prehaps extending to baggy and berry head would be a good guide, so would a new pembroke.

Lofoten?

How about a modern Hardrock, done in guide book form, with different routes. VS to E3?

In reply to Nick Smith - UKC:




...We have to thank the generations of Peak Guide writers for these - the process of reading old guides and taking quotes of them was good fun rather than work I guess!!






you are now mate .... ;0)

Si

In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide:


I beleive a full colour guide to Stannington Ruffs, Beeley Quarry and Milford Crag is under way...get them popular again like - bound to be a top seller!

;0)

In reply to Simon:
I don't know when the BMC Stannington Ruffs clean-up is going to be, but I'm afraid I'm very busy that day, sorry.

In reply to deepsoup:




Its pencilled in for 25th December 2036

...See you all there??

;0)

Si

In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide:
Well I said four books a year, but we have got four coming out in the next five months

Deep Water
Pokketz NE
Pokketz SE
and Northern England!

Lofoten after that and a few more projects bubbling under!

Chris

In reply to Simon:


- "band of volunteers" - luxury - I have to do it all (research, photography, writing and layout) by myself!


Chris

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

Got it today - first perouse - it looks superb - except like other posters have said for the sicky brown colour of the spine. Either stick to the uniform BMC blue or do each area volume with its own unique spine.

When are the CC gonna come up to standard with the Wales guides?

In reply to Nick Smith - UKC:


And of course well done Nick on your shots - the Zagarete shot of Caralyn - is ace - having done the route years ago - it brought back great memories of climbing in a 3 - doing it multi pitch (?) with my mates g/friend in a swim suit on a really hot day!!

..See you at the launch party on the 8th ??

Cheers

Si

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

Interesting reviews, and good ideas for the next definitive Stanage guide. FAs on the page and a timeline of greats would be welcome.

Funny thing I've found with this guide is that 9 out of 10 of the top 5s include The Vice, yet that only gets 2 stars. Having belayed my mate on it and passed on the chance to second after seeing the blood drip down his arms I really can't understand why. Surely it's the tick of the crag?!?

In reply to Chris Craggs:

Hopefully you aren't sacrificing accuracy for volume Chris. There are errors in the online databases that I hope won't appear in the Northern England guide.

Regards,

Steve

In reply to Mutl3y:


Next Guide - sheesh - let us get a few more done elsewhere 1st please!!!

;0)

In reply to SteveSBlake:


Let me have them and they will go in the book.

The Databases always trail behind the manuscripts in terms of what is accurate and up-to-date, not ideal but its an attempt to get feedback BEFORE they are published!

Chris

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

too many stanage guidebooks-spoilt chidren of the north

In reply to Simon: Yeah that was slightly tongue in cheek - shoulda drawn a or summat.

Seriously though, Stanage 1983-1989 tons of new routes. 1989-2002 even more new routes. 2002-2007 not much going on but they had to fix the last guidebook. I cannot see another Stanage guide coming out for 15 years or more. What'd be the point???

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

Mick
A very good review in the main but I don't agree with the underlying assumption that this guide is the BMC's response to Rockfax. It's obvious that BMC guide book producers have learned a lot from Rockfax in recent years in terms of technology, clarity of topos etc, but this guide is no "son of rockfax", rather a wayward cousin happy to benefit from the best advances of Rockfax, but having a real character and charm of it's own.

It's a cracker, and it fulfills it's stated aim, at least for me - it makes me want to get out there -now! (well, maybe not tonight).

I don't agree that it should be A3: it's size is a good compromise between Rockfax and the "back pocket" guide Dave Gregory is after.

In some ways it's 'upped the anti' for Rockfax - with it's water resistant cover for instance...

I agree with you completely about the first ascentionists though - it would be better listing them with the climb descriptions.

PS What's wrong with the word "punter" anyway? You've been abroad too long...

In reply to punter:

I agree.

I think ideas come from all over the place, not just from other climbing guidebooks, but from non-climbing publications, books, TV, games, computers, and the internet.......there has been a general improvement of design and presentation of information across the board.

More design in schools has a part to play as well.

More than that though, there is a new generation who are producing guidebooks and they know what the climbing community want; they listen and ask and learn.

In reply to punter:

I don't really see how it can't be a response to our efforts at some level?

Chris

In reply to punter:

It gets too cluncky - the climbs won't fit on the same page as the topos if we did that I'm guessing.

The 1st ascent details if put in detail would spill the script over the pages.

I have always felt that if you want to see the 1st ascent of a route - go fish it out from the list at the back - which is done by year. Its easy to source info from - and gets you reading other stuff..

Rockfax does well in putting the 1st acent under most routes - but the BMC has a few small tales to tell with each ascent when its of historical value - and I will always vote and work that way...

Wonder what me old Physics Teacher Dave Gregory thinks to it - he paved the way and we all followed in that sense.???

;0)

Si

In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide:


South-West Climbs is the last of the old-school selective guides really isn't it.

An updated version that dumps Jersey and Lundy (I don't know about Jersey, but I would have said that 99% of those going to Lundy will own the definitive), and maybe sticks in some of the newer areas that have gained in popularity since then (I have always thought that the Wye Valley was the bigget omission, but it now strikes me that in terms of the original area of the guide, Portland is the most obvious omission if one were producing a guide to that area today) would be an interesting production.

I suppose you could even devise it as a North and South set, and throw in an extra set of crags north of the Bristol Channel - cover Wye Valley, Ogmore, the Gower and Pembroke (together with Avon perhaps if it helps balance the content) in one volume and then the rest in the other.

Its still surprisingly useful however, considering that its been a fair while since it was produced now. And I like the "whole of the SW" historical. Gives a broader picture for what went on than the historicals from each definitive.

AJM

In reply to Simon:

Have you actually read the title of this thread???


Chris

In reply to Simon:

Ooh, you going to the party? Me too, if I can find it / if I can persuade Nick to come so I know where I'm going!

That day was horrible - climbing damp rock between showers just to get photos done - none of us climbing at our best, lots of wind etc. I think the grin on my face was because we'd managed to do a route without getting rained on or blown off. A novelty over several days of travelling up for photo shoots!

In reply to Caralynr:


Great shot on a nice climb!

see for the bash:

http://www.hauntings.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/

or if you need to call 4 directions:

07870 819773...

See you there!!

Si

In reply to Simon:

Cheers Si
WIth any luck Nick will go so at least I know someone. Otherwise I'll feel rather daft walking in wiht no-one knowing me, and me knowing no-one. But I was invited, so I'll go

In reply to Simon:



Go back and actually read both reviews Simon.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:


I would add Tony Blair and his New Labour also as an influence that blew away old conservative English values and got people more used to and accepting of change, and more likely to make change themselves.

Like a lot of Olde Englande establishments the traditional guidebook producers were bogged down with tradition for traditions sake, headed by people who thought that the old way of doing things was always the right way.....and who wouldn't listen to others or were aware of outside influences.

Alan Rockfax will back me up on that one. He was briefly involved with BMC guidebooks in the early 90's and although he tried to influence (with ideas he later incorporated into Rockfax) he eventually held up his hands and left. Guidebook by old style committee just doesn't work.

Generally UK guidebooks didn't change that much through the 60's, 70's, 80's and early 90's, they got a little slicker but were fundamentally text based, and long winded text at that.

It took lots of factors all converging together to make the big change, the fruits of which we are seeing now.

It also takes certain individuals to recognise all this and instigate change. Look what Dave Turnbull has achieved at the BMC, in the way it operates; slimming down the old committees, revolutionising the way Area Meetings are run, lobbying the powers that be, improving the guidebooks, embracing technology, merchandising, putting in place individuals with talent and energy, improving Access....etc etc

Mick

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: 'I would add Tony Blair and his New Labour also as an influence that blew away old conservative English values and got people more used to and accepting of change, and more likely to make change themselves'

Are you fishing for a peerage or somethng Mick? They cost a lot more than you can afford.

Blair was a middle of the road politician who got into power by taming the more radical excesses of his party. The Prime Minister who changed the way people thought was Thatcher.

In reply to John2:


Yes I'd agree. It is just that since my return from the USA, I left in 94, returned last year, I have witnessed so many changes, understandably, but also a new healthy optimism......as well too much 'Americanism,' in all aspects of UK life.

In reply to Coel Hellier: Say Peaks once more and you are so dead!

In reply to Simon:

That's a real shame I really like seeing the route information and the name of the FA all in one place. Was it a Joe Brown route, etc. By all means have an extended FA section at the back of the book, but a single line in tiny text under each route description would be great and not take up much room!

In reply to Nick Smith - UKC:

I have a feeling Simon wouldn't be the only person to have a say there Nick.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

Thanks for shifting Stanage back into the real world of UKC news again. I liked the bit on deep water soloing you must have seen some of the recent thunderstorms.

In reply to Offwidth:

I apologise: its still not news just a review. Kicked out for the far more important Stella and her sparkling super shoes. Is this a News International site now?

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

Having had this guide for a week or so now, I'll add my views.

It's a wonderful guide. I used to be a great devotee of Stanage before moving too far away (shame) but it's clear that I was nothing compared to Niall Grimes. This is a true labour of love.

Right from the start, it's clear that top quality research is at the heart if this guide. The route descriptions aren't just rehashes from previous guides and even the lowliest and most obscure routes have received worthy attention. All photo topos are very clear too and I've had a few revelations when I've thought 'Ah, that's where that route goes'. I also like the broader photos of the areas of the crag that show layout of the individual buttresses. I'm very much looking forward to exploring the 'Secret Stanage' area again, and this time I'm probably going to actually know what I'm climbing.

So, without having used it at the crag as yet, I think I can safely say the guide will fulfil it's purpose of getting you to the crag and on the right climbs. But how well does it do as 'Bog reading' material?

Very, very well I'd say. The route descriptions are well crafted and are genuinly inspiring. And I do like the excerpts from previous guides and other historical bits and bobs. I'm a bit ambiguous on the favourite fives at the moment but maybe I was looking for something more profound from them.

Size: thank God they haven't gone to A5. I hate the size of Rockfax (sorry guys), it really cannot be carried in any kind of pocket. Ideally I prefer the old size, but I can see that with photo topos a compromise had to be made and I recken this is just small and handy enough (having used the Burbage and Roaches guides before).

Colour of spine: with this content, I really couldn't give a toss.

One criticism I do have is that the graded list has clearly been done in a hurry. Some routes are in under wrong grade (Sudoxe for example) and some are mentioned twice (Travesties). Also it's not complete; the 1989 guide had all starred HVS which I was steadily working my way through whereas the new guide seems to be a bit random which are included. This is of minor importance though.

So all in all it's fantastic. To sum up: it makes me really really want to go to Stanage. Now.

why should i buy this if i have peak gritstone east?!

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

I reckon Rockfax are responsible for a fundamental rise in quality of guide books. In short, because of them, clarity has become paramount. It's very good to see all guide book producers rising to the challenge and often finding their own innovative ways as well.

In reply to Nick Smith - UKC:




I'll see what the Froggatt guide team think and the next meeting due in the next few months.

- never say never like - I'm not a graphic designer. I just thought it might take up space. Others might dissagree and find a way round it & Grimer might be able to weave his magic!! ;0)


Si

In reply to Wilbur:

It has all the routes.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

>>>Rockfax does well in putting the 1st acent under most routes - but the BMC has a few small tales to tell with each ascent when its of historical value - and I will always vote and work that way...

Wonder what me old Physics Teacher Dave Gregory thinks to it - he paved the way and we all followed in that sense.??? <<<<<





Read Daves again I can't see His opinion on putting the 1st acentionist under the route description.

When I used to work for Dave he was always asking for the year to be put by the route - but the 1st ascentionist in the back with any little story (e.g Dave Greg fell in the Pool at Lawrencefield after completing Limpopo Groove etc)

Just wondered if he's of the Rockfax style these days. I think it works for RF as the format is bigger and allows room - the current set of BMC guides, IMHO doesn't.

But see what others think at the next meeting...
Cheers

Si

In reply to Simon:

Not looked at the guide yet as didn't have glasses with me at weekend. If the FA list IS at the back of the book, put the date of FA in the route description so people can look it up easily in the back.

In reply to sutty:

Thats we way it has been the way since I have been involved -(1989)

You then go to the year at the back and the route is easily found.

Si

In reply to Simon:

It's not an either or Simon. Best to have both in a definitive; both the historical list at the back with date, route, first ascent team and historical notes PLUS the first ascent team and date with the route description, after all it is part of the route description.

Space isn't usually a problem, even on the current page size, you use 6pt text size, which is a point above the smallest you can get away with.

In reply to Simon:


Too much flipping pages. It's the same reason why route photo-diagram and route description should, as far as possible, be on the same page.

In reply to Simon:

I think that FA details with the description is of minor importance. If it compromises getting as much route information in as possible AND having the route on the same page (or very close to) the photo topo, then FA details in a separate list is better.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

I'm sure its a choice made to avoid clutter and give more space. Its mportant to me as I like to write my notes next to the route; I like many climbers find this more important than extra info that is repeated elsewhere.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

I see what you are saying, but I don't think it's quite the same. Having topo and description on the same page makes it easier when standing at the bottom working out where the route goes. When you're wanting to find out FA info (during a break, at home, on the bog) you have more time to flip pages and it's less of an issue. Plus, it's nice to see the history together so you can compare what routes are being put up around the same time and it gives more space for the anecdotes. I've never had a problem with FA lists at the end, in fact, if I've given it much thought, I actually like it.

In reply to El Greyo:

Nor have I. Like I said, do both and you get the best of both worlds both at the crag and at home.

Say you are flicking through the book at the crag, it is nice to see the first ascent team next to the description; it may influence route choice and often stimulates conversation.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

Bloody hell Gary Gibson led this and this, and this was Chris Craggs and another one; who's this Joe Brown bloke god he's going well to do that thing next to BAWs. Give me my intelligence back to look it up and the space to write my views anyday....

In reply to Offwidth:

If there could be space made - would you still say nay?

I would - ain't broke - don't fix it is my opinion - see what the other peeps think next meeting though.

When the 1st ascent details started in the 1991 Froggatt Guide - I used to like flicking to the back - to see who did the route in 1978 etc. It then might show a route nearby with an anecdote - that was on a seperate crag - which would be the next weekends location! - ace!

Cheers

Si

In reply to Simon:


In reply to Simon:


That kind of opinion is why UK guidebooks were in a period of staus quo for so long!

And its antithesis is why UK guidebooks have become so good.

It's useful to think beyond your own needs and experience to that of others.

Mick

In reply to Simon:

I think the format is spot on. Phototopo backed by text. Maximise the information for the bulk of the main lines, minimise for the obviously minor lines. Lots of features, photos and maps. Leave some space for notes. Keep 1st ascents in lists at the back with historical notes where it adds to the guide.

As for size: bigger than the old guides is better until problems of packing, weatherproofing and being less likely for the weight to break the spine leads me to believe this series is about right. Blue was beautiful but my god that brown??

For Rockfax its a different style with its own fans (I think too much superfluous stuff) but these are also brilliant guides. One thing having no full index in Eastern Grit is a big let down for me as its against all they stood for in usability and I suspect as a book its too thick to stand serious use (I'd have split it in two....it may well do that on its own).

In reply to Mick Ryan

'If its not broke dont fix it' is an excellent maxim and only ever becomes a problem if its actually broke and there is a denial about that.

In reply to Offwidth:


Thankfully guidebooks will continue to evolve, there's no denial about that either.

In reply to Offwidth: "'If its not broke dont fix it' is an excellent maxim"

The abacus ain't broke, but we have computers now.

In reply to John2:

You need to read a short story by Arthur C Clarke. When a computer breaks (hardly unusual for Windows based PC's) and nothing else is around an abacus can be useful toy. However I wasnt trying to be a 'Luddite': if a design is well behind where it should be from a utility perspective its then broke (in any real design sense) but if if its more about polish and glitter that may be bullshit.

In reply to Offwidth:

There's always Occam's razor!

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

will occams razor cut the rockfax guides down to pocket size though?

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

"Being a Northerner, I don't know Stanage very well."

very funny

In reply to sutty:

No, Chris did that with his new selected selective head on.

In reply to sutty:


apparantly so.. http://www.rockfax.com/publications/books/item.php?id=138

The Pokketz Format - A6 in size, weighing less than 150 grams and only 7mm thick this small and portable guidebook will fit in your 'pokketz'.

Instead of concentrating on regions or rock types, the Pokketz books will cover grade bands and/or different climbing styles. The Peak series will include limestone routes as well as gritstone and will be presented in a horizontal page format to maximize the information packed between the covers.

Future books will make maximum use of the format in covering sea cliff and multi-pitch routes where guidebook portablility becomes an important consideration.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

Was that a news item perchance?

In reply to Offwidth:

'Twas the answer to a question. I frequently answer questions on here.

More news items up this weekend when I've finished a batch of UKC advertising work so the good ship UKClimbing.com can continue to sail the interweb high seas and we can all enjoy threads like this one, and others, and read articles, log routes, view and upload photos, read the news etc etc.....

Over and out.

In reply to Offwidth:

No, it has been up on the website for a while, I just fed him the line to spout about it.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

Good to hear it. Its the way of the world that some questions are always going to get answered bigger and better than others.

In reply to sutty:

There was also a paid Premier Post and paid banners about it.

I really am over and out...stop it!

In reply to Offwidth:

Please Offwidth, you do me a severe injustice.

over....and....aaarrrggghhh

In reply to Offwidth:

Here it is;

http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=232539

In reply to Offwidth:

Good point, the intention was to release the full index as a pdf for those who wanted it. I'll have a word with Alan next week to see if we can't do that.
The index got shrunk because we just ran out of space - it was an index of all the routes, or my Eastern Secrets!


Chris

In reply to Chris Craggs: is deep water actually gonna be out anytime soon? the date on the rockfax site has slipped since i first saw it and i want it for summer trips to pembroke, swanage and mallorca!

In reply to abarro81:

It is being printed on Tuesday - usually available a couple of weeks after that.
It is worth waiting for!


Chris


Slippage - never!

In reply to Chris Craggs: sweet, i'm looking forward to it!

In reply to Chris Craggs: do you DWS Chris? I'll think i'll be getting a copy too.

Whens Rockfaxs Yorkshire Grit out?



Also, Which is a better guide for the occasional roaches visitor? BMC or rockfax Western Grit?

In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide:


Either is excellent. Few good routes are not in WG. And WG does the Skyline left-to-right instead of the annoying back-to-front of the BMC guide. Also, WG gives far wider coverage of course.

However, the BMC is a superb guide with very few faults [that Skyline issue being one ].

In reply to Chris Craggs:



....probably all those 1st ascents details by the routes lol!!



As Mick says its horses for courses with BMC / Rockfax - its good we can get both - but its never going to stop comparisons - it would be a dull old place if they were the same format etc etc.

As for if it ain't broke - don't fix it, the question of evolution & progress is a bit of a misnomer.

Of course the BMC guides have evolved for the better (we fixed some broken stuff for sure) and so have RF. I could say that the RF logo looks a bit dated - but RF got ir right 1st time & it ain't broke so...

As for the 3D idea - you open the book and the crag leaps out at you in your own home with ring Ouzels swirling round flying butress etc ... how awesome would that be?

;0)

Si

In reply to Caralynr:



I'll be there and I promise I won't mention Mutiny Crack!!

We are - after all - at a Stanage Launch!!

;0)

Si

In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide:

No, Deep Water has been done by Mike Robertson - he is a much better climber (and canoeist!) than me!
Northern England to give it the correct title (Yorkshire Grit, North York Moors, Co Durham and Northumberland) should be out in October.

BMC has greater in depth coverage of the Staff area - through with WG you also get Merseyside Sandstone, Kinder, Bleaklow, Chew Valley and Lancashire Grit. That is a lot of extra routes for a similar wedge!

Chris

In reply to Simon:


What launch party?

J

In reply to Ropeboy:


Speak to Grimer if no invite boss..

Si

In reply to Chris Craggs:

Thats not what i meant, i meant have you ever DWSed? Whats it like.

Cheers for the other stuff. I'll check out the guide in Needlesports tommorow see which as better pics/topo.

In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide:


Bum clenching soloing above the briney - ace!

;0)

In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide:


http://www.pbase.com/chris_craggs/image/75163766

A bit - enjoyed it - though I didn't fall in!

Chris

In reply to Chris Craggs: falling looks all right if the waters deep and it over hangs, otherwise same as normal soloing

might go to the fest i tihnk

In reply to Simon:

My question was what launch party not where do you get an invite.

Just nice to be kept informed thats all.

In reply to Chris Craggs:

A free pdf index 'miniguide' would be a great and really useful idea.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

"over....and....aaarrrggghhh" Just in case you've got the wrong idea: never make the mistake of taking my posts too seriously. Those who know me well know I have an penchant for wind-ups and you make such a delightful target. This is the internet afterall.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: I don't have any problem with the size of the recent BMC guides, but does anyone sell a zip-cover for this size of guidebook?

Thanks

In reply to Nick Smith - UKC: I need one as well. Yesterday more people had the new stanage guide at Stanage End than both Rockfax guides and the old Stanage guide put together so there must be a market.

In reply to Offwidth:
Yesterday more people had the new stanage guide at Stanage End than both Rockfax guides and the old Stanage guide put together so there must be a market.



Hmmmm - interesting!

See you Friday night S?

Si

In reply to Coel Hellier:

We did consider this. In fact, several sections were rewritten to make tham left to right. However, we just didn't think it worked with the Skyline. For a start (literally), how many people who don't know the area pretty well already are going to be able to locate Willow Farm, or even the buttress it's on? Although obviously it is possibl e to approach from either end, the majority of visitors who need the most help are going to start from the main Roaches area. Finally, since the Skyline isn't a continuous edge, unlike most of Stanage, if you describe the buttresses right to left, but the routes on each buttress left to right the question of what constitutes an individual buttress becomes an issue. In the end we decided that it just doesn't work if you are trying to describe every route on every buttress.

In reply to Dave Garnett:

Makes sense to me - never had a problem with it personally -its easy to read and locate butresses (much easier than Stanage 2002 anyway! ;0)

Like It would also have been daft to start on the Nth could L-R!

Cheers

Si

In reply to Dave Garnett:


But this question harks back to the old days of climbing guides where every route is described with reference to previous route, so that you need to locate several other routes before finding your target.

Nowadays one finds the buttresses with a map, recognises the buttresses from the photo-topos, and finds the routes from the lines on the photo-topos.

Thus, whether you can find Willow Farm is utterly irrelevant (unless heading for Willow Farm). The first timer heads to the Skyline from the Upper Tier, and finds the routes on the right-hand end as above, without ever caring about buttresses further left.

In the same way one arrives at Stanage Popular and (believe it or not) finds Crack and Corner without having to first sort out High Neb or Stanage End.

OK, I guess this is a minor point. The BMC Roaches guide is superb overall. I just think the penchant for right-to-left descriptions is a form of temporary insanity that sometimes afflicts stressed and overworked guidebook writers [most notably in the 2002 Stanage guide ].

In reply to Coel Hellier: Yeah, perhaps this is right, but this was the first guide we did, and it is a learning process as, for myself, Dave, Gus, andi and all the others involved in the Roaches guide, it was our first venture into guides, and you had to make all those decisions - colour topos Vs line drawings, whether to include bouldering, V grades Vs Font grades, left to right. Previous to this all i could think was that I never had any problems with the old Burbage South or Millstone guides. If you remember the old Roaches guide described the Lower Tier in two directions, starting from the steps and going out. No one ever complained about this, but it seemed barmy, and I remember spending ages reversing bits, so that it all read right to left. I couldn't see the point whan Dave garnett then rewrote it all left to right. But then that turned out to be the correct thing to do.

Funny when you look back on it all.

In reply to Niall Grimes:

Horses for courses really. Just had a quick look in PW Snowdonia guide and the main cliff at Gogarth runs right to left, the way you approach it.

Yorkshire Grit guides have sections that do the same, Crookrise and Rylestone in my edition, the way you approach the crag from.

In reply to Niall Grimes:


Just to reiterate that I think the 3 recent BMC Guides (Staffs, BM&B and Stanage) are as good as any guides ever written, so my above quibble is unimportant compared to the vast amount that you got right.

In reply to sutty:


Gogarth Main Cliff is a bit different since you can't easily stand beneath it to spot the routes; thus you have little option but to resort to sussing out routes sequentially from your starting point, for which a "starting at the approach" ordering makes sense.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

Thanks for the news item on the new Stanage guide and the mulitple level layered interlinks that make a Joyce novel look shallow. Most of the stuff you included about me and my thread was correct but as I pointed out lower in the thread I had an typo in the main posting: its 1398 named routes I counted, not 1498.

In reply to Simon

Of course Lynn and I will be there.

In reply to Dave Garnett

Proof is in the pudding: Stanage 2002 generated complaints because it did give rise to many problems. Skyline doesnt seem to cause many problems in practice (but does annoy strict directionalists).

In reply to Niall Grimes

When bouldering with your book in my teeth on The lower section of the Causeway last night it kept banging on the rock and upsetting my balence. Did you consider this when deciding on its size? (Just because you didnt put those problems in isnt an excuse you know).

In reply to Offwidth:

Stop whining Steve. The amount of publicity the BMC guides get at UKC would bankrupt them if they had to pay for it....it almost equalled the amount of publicity Ground Up got.....two reviews, articles etc and the FRCC Lake Distric Winter http://www.ukclimbing.com/gear/review.php?id=286

Stanage Review here:

http://www.ukclimbing.com/gear/review.php?id=452

at : http://www.ukclimbing.com/gear/

Product news here:

http://www.ukclimbing.com/gear/news.php?id=413

This thread started by me; http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?n=245352 and many others here.

I'll even buy you a pint on Friday night.

How's that?

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

"Thanks for the news item on the new Stanage guide and the mulitple level layered interlinks that make a Joyce novel look shallow. Most of the stuff you included about me and my thread was correct but as I pointed out lower in the thread I had an typo in the main posting: its 1398 named routes I counted, not 1498."

Your reading it too deeply, start with the first word....just pointing out a single (if important) typo.

In reply to Offwidth:

And in this weeks newsletter that has just gone out to 28,000.

http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/weekly.html

And I'm taking my camera, notebook (and holding Ali J's hand) on Friday.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

Which since I had just read it maybe was what I was thanking you for. Good greif gentle wind-ups are not supposed to generate paranoia.

Actually I'm looking forward to meeting one of the heroic supporters of low grade climbing.

In reply to Offwidth:

No paranoia, covering my back.

In reply to Niall Grimes: I bought your roaches guide the other day and it one of the best definitive guide I've seen.

Good Job, inspiring stuff.

In reply to Niall Grimes:

I've been transferring my ticks over the last few nights and I can't find High Neb Girdle Traverse in the guide. I know it's only one route out of 1400 or whatever, but I wouldn't like to see it forgotten. It's brilliant fun and is of some historical significance - it's mentioned in one of the history sections but doesn't get a description. Best soloed or done on a quiet day I would say.

In reply to El Greyo:

I guess you've just given away another of Grimer's deliberate errors to Chris. Its still listed in detail here for anyone who wants info:

http://www.eee.ntu.ac.uk/offwidth/stanagehighneb.html

Just click 'Titanic' at the bottom (it spilled over!).

Within a few weeks these guide pages will be updated to the new guide and also backdated to Stanage 1983 thanks to some inspriation from stp.

In reply to Offwidth:

I feel a bit churlish to point it out. It must be a nigh on impossible task not to miss out the odd route, particularly a girdle traverse which doesn't fit neatly in with the other routes.

Obviously, if you only produce selective guides then no one knows if you've accidently left out a route.

Oops, better add a smiley

In reply to El Greyo:

.....and they haven't included my route Bell Heather - left of DIY. I know it was crap, but that is hardly the point!


Chris