UKC

NEWS: James McHaffie Downgrades Trauma to E8

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 Michael Ryan 19 Jun 2007
The new magic grade is E9. E8 is passé, E9 is headline grabbing. Even if that E9 is really E8. Well maybe!

In April, James Pearson got the second ascent of Everest summiteer Leo Houlding's 1999 testpiece, Trauma E9 7a on Dinas Mot, confirming both grade and quality. Trauma got another repeat by Dave MacLeod this mo...

Read more at http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/
 hutchm 19 Jun 2007
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

Is a 'pecker hook' what I think it is? Does it require any particular type of warming up before the headpoint attempt?
 niggle 19 Jun 2007
In reply to hutchm:

*snigger*

Peckers are a kind of steel hook used by aid climbers. They're generally pretty desperate protection, but on something as hard as Trauma I guess you take what you can get!

http://www.amazon.com/Black-Diamond-Pecker-Aid-Tool/dp/B0007N2QXY
 BelleVedere 19 Jun 2007
In reply to niggle:



And there was me planning my excuses - "I can't do Trauma because it requires a pecker hook, and well I'm the wrong sex"
 niggle 19 Jun 2007
In reply to es:

Shame - nothing like a hands-free rest for those willing to perform that special jam...
 hutchm 19 Jun 2007
In reply to niggle:
> (In reply to hutchm)
>
> *snigger*
>
> Peckers are a kind of steel hook used by aid climbers.

Thanks for the info - I wrongly linked the expression with McHaffie talking about finding a new 'body position' to place his wire! That's dedication, I thought.
OP Michael Ryan 19 Jun 2007
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

Photo up at the GroundUp website.

http://www.groundupclimbing.com/newsitem.asp?nsid=197
 GrahamD 19 Jun 2007
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

Being pedantic, it sounds like he's proposing a down grade. The concensus from its four ascents is still E9, isn't it ? Surely downgrades don't work on the basis of the lowest bidder, do they ?
 mickyconnor 19 Jun 2007
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: Well, having discovered that the grade is meant to indicate relative difficulty with regard to an onsight climb. I wonder if Pearson, or Houlding made an onsight? I'm guessing not, as these devilish climbs all seem to get practice.

So, if they both did headpoints, they are making quite a complicated calculation to work out how hard it would be to onsight. Why worry about minor adjustments to grades? I know we like a holy war here on UKC, but surely we need some extravagantly talented souls to onsight these routes before the grades can really stick.

According to Paz "Dave Birkett's the only one who's onsighted E8." Is this right? Does that mean the grading system has a break at this point, and all the grades above should be treated as strictly provisional? Will some routes never be onsighted?
 Ed Booth 19 Jun 2007
In reply to mickyconnor:

> According to Paz "Dave Birkett's the only one who's onsighted E8." Is this right?

Nick Dixon On sighted Rite Of Spring, the first ascensionist thought E7/8 and Nick said probably E8. he had previously climed Indian Face but this is not the crux so that is not of much debate.
In reply to mickyconnor:
Well maybe he is the one being honest by saying E8, there seems to be a lot of grade inflation in the upper grades recently and very few seem prepared to come out and admit it, it seems they would rather take the bigger numbers than be honest, Breathless E10 7a,E8 in real money, Blind Vision E10 7b, E8 in real money, what was that Dunne route in the mourne mountains, E10 7a, E8 in real money...i see a pattern here...yet we have the good old Indian Face E9 and counting.
 mickyconnor 19 Jun 2007
In reply to Conquistador of the usless: So, if we take E8 as the current onsight limit, it should be possible to onsight Trauma, now that it has been provisionally downgraded. If nobody can do it, then it has to at least be E9, doesn't it?
In reply to mickyconnor:
Yes i guess in theory as very few E8's have been lead on sight.

The point i was making is that there seems to be a trend recently of overgrading in this country, driven by the need to keep sponsors happy no doubt.
All the routes i used as examples have been repeated by Birkett or Macloed as headpoints and subsequently downgraded, grudgingly i might add, Birkett admits they are say a tad overgraded, Macloed gave them E8, although i notice when it comes to sponsorship deals, he still puts the original grades on his Cv.
 Matt Rees 19 Jun 2007
In reply to mickyconnor:

> According to Paz "Dave Birkett's the only one who's onsighted E8."

That's if you discount the alleged anonymous onsight of The Zone late last year.......
 mickyconnor 19 Jun 2007
In reply to Conquistador of the usless: Oh yeah. Hyping up the grade seems a marketing inevitability. Then there is the competitiveness.

I know trad is not really competitive, but what drives them to push themselves like they do probably has something to do with outpacing the other rock gods. It must be tempting to think that you had to work awfully hard to get up that blank piece of rock, surely harder than so and so, and bung on digits accordingly. Especially as they are making a judgement about the onsight, which of course is something they can never actually do themselves, since they have put in days, months, or even years of practice and thought.
 Tyler 19 Jun 2007
In reply to mickyconnor:

> what drives them to push themselves like they do probably has something to do with outpacing the other rock gods.

Another generalisation based on no knowledge of the subject whatsoever. What drives you to try and climb harder routes, is it to "something to do with outpacing the other rock gods"?

 Ian McNeill 19 Jun 2007
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

I wonder what Leo will say?


i dont think he will care too much as he is having the time of his life right now...
 mickyconnor 19 Jun 2007
In reply to Tyler:
> (In reply to mickyconnor)
>
> [...]
>
> Another generalisation based on no knowledge of the subject whatsoever. What drives you to try and climb harder routes, is it to "something to do with outpacing the other rock gods"?

They are people; I am a person, and I know what the people around me are doing.
 UKB Shark 19 Jun 2007
In reply to Tyler:

I'm sure peer pressure has something to do with it - hasn't a rising tide floated your boat recently ?

- and then pushed others to raise their game.
 Tyler 19 Jun 2007
In reply to Simon Lee:

I drowned years ago!
 UKB Shark 19 Jun 2007
In reply to Tyler:

Don't avoid the issue.
 mickyconnor 19 Jun 2007
In reply to Tyler: These fellows are very strong swimmers, and surely love to get wet. I was wondering about the numbers, not the worm in their heads.
luke skywalker 19 Jun 2007
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

Jordan Buys onsighted Carmen Picasso E8 albeit with a preplaced RP at the crux placed by his wife...
 Paz 19 Jun 2007
In reply to mickyconnor:
Before that I said `I think'... !! It's not like I've never been wrong before FFS. For instance:

In reply to Matt Rees
I forgot about the rumours about that, but he never wanted to come forward and down grade it to E8 like I suggested.
Then there were more murmurings about Renegade Master, but
I always forget the details.

Basically we always have this discussion about e8s onsight, and people come up with a millions examples which are all actually flashes or ground ups, or padded out,
but are still suggested because people feel the
need to give someone `an honourable mention', which although are being suggested basically in order to say "oh these strict rules aren't so important" still show that it's only a little step forward needed to onsight E8. When you filter out all these, I thought you're left with Birkett's as the only E8 onsight, that is sufficiently witnessed enough to count for some of us, (some suspicions about having been on overlapping parts of it before were even put to bed by the man himself in person).

What was the story behind Come to Mother anyway?

In reply to boothy:
Is RoS at Nescliffe? I liked your ascent on the DVD by the way - is it on that?

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com
When you say `what will Leo make of it?' remember back when the boy wonder did Trauma we established on that thread that Leo didn't place the wire and what he lacked in experience, he made up for with madness. And talent. That ascent probably merited E9.
 mickyconnor 19 Jun 2007
In reply to Paz: Wasn't questioning your wisdom, just asking for confirmation. Maybe I could have phrased it better.

Still, I find it fascinating that around about E8, and taking into account all the caveats, we have the high water mark for onsights, and then above that we have a whole load of grades, a certain amount of controversy, and no real idea what it would take to get up them without all that practice. I know that in all sports the game moves on, and what seemed like a miracle often becomes commonplace, but if the really high E numbers are unlikely to get onsight attempts aren't they really 'hors categorie' like in cycling. Who cares about the numbers, feel the skill, dedication, and glorious madness of it.

Are we not all a little bit touched. There is often a nearby path which you could walk to the top, but we choose to climb.
 Paz 19 Jun 2007
In reply to mickyconnor:

OK no agro meant.

I'm guessing there's a level for which delicate or insanely technical climbs are just impossible to read, and the onsight's always going to involve a large element of luck no matter how good you are (Jon Read put it: How do you choose between 6 or 7 pebbles and smears that all look about as good as each other, avoid the Red Herrings and find a sequence that works, before you fall off from fatigue?). However such climbs are pretty easy to do first redpoint, or second go on top rope, or flash, and get comparitively low sport grades. If you've got talent or strength enough (unlike most of us) to climb this sort of thing statically, or at least with enough confidence to be assured of success then this sort of thing becomes more of a realistic onsight proposition. But basically, take the bolts and top rope away and leave the Indian Face, I don't think anyone wants to risk death from a bad sequence on an onsight attempt at this sort of route.

Right, so what I reckon is that understandably those who are looking at high end onsights are no doubt weighing up the risks a lot more and going for the stuff that's either easy for the grade (so bold) and readable (steep even!), climbable statically, or stuff you can consider falling off. There must've been loads of onsight or ground up attempts at E7s at Gogarth, and on Limestone and Mountain Rock as there've been plenty of successes. On grit anyway, the outrageously obvious contender for ground upping at least (there's not really an E9 climber out there who's not seen hard grit is there?) that springs to my mind is Parthian Shot - (is it really true that every move's been fallen off now? Obviosuly the top rock over has, but what about below the flake?) - and the word is that if you do the direct then you've got a good cam for the start. There're others too like New Statesman, and maybe even Equilibrium that you can split up in yor mind e.g into `highball bit' or `safe bit' and `easier (6a) bold bit', and obviously after Bransby's attempt Impact Day's got to be on and now Divided Years is recognised as safe and nearer 8a climbing it's an obvious challenge for anyone who ever manages to get the weather for it. How long is it going to be before the bold strong young things regard Rhapsody as the safe proposition some Yanks dismiss it as (giving it R and not X!)?
TimS 19 Jun 2007
In reply to Paz: You should have a good look at New Statesman and that big boulder behind it, and where the first gear - the 'highball bit' is a bit more like the 'broken back bit' especially as even on the onsight of a grit route I assume the use of all bouldering mats would be outlawed.

Back on topic, Caff seems to be on fire at the moment - I know he climbed a lot of stuff in good style when he cam to Yorkshire earlier in the year, and that new route on the slate looks amazing.
 mickyconnor 19 Jun 2007
In reply to Paz: Hmmm... Just when I thought I was beginning to get a grip on this stuff,...
 Paz 19 Jun 2007
In reply to TimS:

You're not going to die though are you?

Glad Caff's going well too, he's someone I always wish we heard more from.
Ackbar 19 Jun 2007
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: At what grade does it become acceptable to use a sky hook (or any other sort of hook) on a trad route (as I assume that there is a high probability of ripping the flake to which it is attached)?
 Will Hunt 19 Jun 2007
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
Wish I was more a part of the Welsh scene. Always inspired me more than the Sheffield scene news ever had.
TimS 19 Jun 2007
In reply to Paz: Hmmm broken back could easily = punctured organs etc...
 Will Hunt 19 Jun 2007
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
Oh, and well done to Caff!
 tony 19 Jun 2007
In reply to Ackbar:
> (In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com) At what grade does it become acceptable to use a sky hook (or any other sort of hook) on a trad route (as I assume that there is a high probability of ripping the flake to which it is attached)?

The hook used in Trauma doesn't hang on a flake - it sits in a crack, on top of a broken old peg. You can read about the placement on the HotAches blog: http://hotaches.blogspot.com/2007_04_01_archive.html
 Paz 19 Jun 2007
In reply to TimS:

Flattened belayer...

Seroiusy anyway, I've recently only realised that a broken back can sound worse than it is, or at least doesn't
t necessarily involve paralysis. I've had to stop my self on more than one occasion from going "You broken your back, hang on why aren't you in a wheel chair then?" anyway.
 UKB Shark 20 Jun 2007
In reply to Will Hunt: Always inspired me more than the Sheffield scene news ever had.


Whaddyamean ? only yesterday there were two split tips and strained tendon at Raven Tor.

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