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The climber and researcher Dr. Craig P. Smith reports on a recently published review of the scientific literature pertaining to ‘young climbers’.
It recommends that climbers aged <16 should not undertake intensive finger strength training and that wearing excessively restrictive climbing shoes is not recommended in growing feet to help prevent foot injuries and deformities.
Read the full list of important conclusions at http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/
It recommends that climbers aged <16 should not undertake intensive finger strength training and that wearing excessively restrictive climbing shoes is not recommended in growing feet to help prevent foot injuries and deformities.
Read the full list of important conclusions at http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: Hmmmmm, certainly 'over training' and the damage it can do to growing childrens tendons and ligaments is old news? And not squishing their feet into overly tight shoes is just common sense?
In reply to lasonj: As with all things in life common sense should be your guide. But there will always be a qualified 'expert' out there who can make a buck or two telling us what we already know.
I mean what's wrong with getting the baby on a HVS wearing shoes three sizes too small anyway, it's not as though I'd ask him to attempt an E3 until he was at least six months or so!?!
Cx
I mean what's wrong with getting the baby on a HVS wearing shoes three sizes too small anyway, it's not as though I'd ask him to attempt an E3 until he was at least six months or so!?!
Cx
SOMEONE THINK OF THE CHILDREN!
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
" More research on young climbers is needed"
And who's going to do that then? That's a certainly a very common conclusion that scientists arrive at.
I'd have thought that train easy, or sensibly is better advice than don't train. Don't wear tight rock boots? Give me a break. The elite especially will still train, how else do 14 year olds climb 8c?
Daniel Woods and Adam Ondra. Please carry on with what you're doing.
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
" More research on young climbers is needed"
And who's going to do that then? That's a certainly a very common conclusion that scientists arrive at.
I'd have thought that train easy, or sensibly is better advice than don't train. Don't wear tight rock boots? Give me a break. The elite especially will still train, how else do 14 year olds climb 8c?
Daniel Woods and Adam Ondra. Please carry on with what you're doing.
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: Complete crap, all my three kids have climbed since they were about 6 one reaching the BICC finals and one coming 4th in BBC.
They are now 17, 20 and 22 with absolutely no ill effects whatsoever.
They are now 17, 20 and 22 with absolutely no ill effects whatsoever.
In reply to Al Evans:
Wow Al, the survey is categorical refuted by your sample of three.
Three who may not have grown old enough for any of the negative effects to have taken hold yet.
So much for science then.
Alan
Wow Al, the survey is categorical refuted by your sample of three.
Three who may not have grown old enough for any of the negative effects to have taken hold yet.
So much for science then.
Alan
In reply to Al Evans:
That argument has about as much validity as the "my granny smoked 20 a day and lived to be 90" comments.
It's not complete crap, your kids were lucky, I can name a lot of other young climbers who have had bad injuries some of whom have had to give up climbing.
That argument has about as much validity as the "my granny smoked 20 a day and lived to be 90" comments.
It's not complete crap, your kids were lucky, I can name a lot of other young climbers who have had bad injuries some of whom have had to give up climbing.
Also reported by Nick Colton at the BMC website:
http://www.thebmc.co.uk/News.aspx?id=1950
He writes:
"The BMC are in communication with the paper's authors and hope to be able to bring further information on these issues.
The relevant BMC committees will also be considering the conclusions and recommendations made in the paper."
And, in response to:
"Climbers under 16 should not undertake intensive finger strength training"
Nick continues:
"It is important to note that up to a point the international IFSC rules do already reflect this.
The full IFSC rule is: "7.11 3 Each World Cup competition approved by the IFSC shall include categories for male and female competitors. Only competitors who are or will be at least 16 years of age in the year of the competition shall be eligible to compete in a World Cup competition".
http://www.thebmc.co.uk/News.aspx?id=1950
He writes:
"The BMC are in communication with the paper's authors and hope to be able to bring further information on these issues.
The relevant BMC committees will also be considering the conclusions and recommendations made in the paper."
And, in response to:
"Climbers under 16 should not undertake intensive finger strength training"
Nick continues:
"It is important to note that up to a point the international IFSC rules do already reflect this.
The full IFSC rule is: "7.11 3 Each World Cup competition approved by the IFSC shall include categories for male and female competitors. Only competitors who are or will be at least 16 years of age in the year of the competition shall be eligible to compete in a World Cup competition".
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: f*cking 'ell tis stupid we cant do fun sports at school, now theyre trying to get parents involved now... not happy :/ not that it matters to me anyway :P
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
If I remember rightly, didn't both Moffatt and Dunne have serious injuries which required surgery. Both of these I think were later attributed to them over-straining themselves during their growing years in their teens I think.
Alan
If I remember rightly, didn't both Moffatt and Dunne have serious injuries which required surgery. Both of these I think were later attributed to them over-straining themselves during their growing years in their teens I think.
Alan
In reply to Alan James - UKC:
it strikes me as pretty logical that young feet shouldn't be squished, but I get the feeling from talking to friends that this is a relatively new way of thinking - in terms of how many people are having skeletal problems sorted out through orthotics that are correcting foot issues that developed in childhood.
I saw a young lad bounding up Kendal Wall the other day, wearing some black gym pumps that had been tightened up a bit round the arches using tape. He was climbing better than me (hey, that's not such a great achievement but anyway... )
it strikes me as pretty logical that young feet shouldn't be squished, but I get the feeling from talking to friends that this is a relatively new way of thinking - in terms of how many people are having skeletal problems sorted out through orthotics that are correcting foot issues that developed in childhood.
I saw a young lad bounding up Kendal Wall the other day, wearing some black gym pumps that had been tightened up a bit round the arches using tape. He was climbing better than me (hey, that's not such a great achievement but anyway... )
In reply to CJD: RB's rock shoes are designed with children in mind. They have this velcroed bit at the back so that they can be loosened as her feet grow. I don't think it's a new way of thinking at all. How many parents make sure their childs shoes are always properly fitted for school etc. And it's pretty common knowledge I should think that badly fitting footwear is bad for you, adult or child.
In reply to lasonj:
hmm, yeah, I'm now thinking back to clarks shoes and start-rite and that scary machine that measured your feet in all directions and looked like it was going to crush it.
Perhaps I'm thinking more about people who seem to be getting problems sorted out now that weren't the sort of thing people looked at then, for instance i had shoes that fitted well with lots of space round my (rubbish) toes, but people didn't notice that the way my toes rolled meant that my knees weren't aligned so I had 15 years of knee problems. I was thinking that tight climbing shoes at an early age might exacerbate that sort of thing.
hmm, yeah, I'm now thinking back to clarks shoes and start-rite and that scary machine that measured your feet in all directions and looked like it was going to crush it.
Perhaps I'm thinking more about people who seem to be getting problems sorted out now that weren't the sort of thing people looked at then, for instance i had shoes that fitted well with lots of space round my (rubbish) toes, but people didn't notice that the way my toes rolled meant that my knees weren't aligned so I had 15 years of knee problems. I was thinking that tight climbing shoes at an early age might exacerbate that sort of thing.
In reply to CJD: Oh right yeah, that'd be much less of a common knowledge thing then, the feet probs causing knee probs/hip/back probs etc. Not really something you'd ever tend to think about unless you'd suffered and been thro the whole rigmaroll yourself I should think.
They rarely use the 'scary machine' in Clarks now, they have a modern computerised sensor thing now that you stand on and it takes your foot measurement.
They rarely use the 'scary machine' in Clarks now, they have a modern computerised sensor thing now that you stand on and it takes your foot measurement.
In reply to lasonj:
Lasonj...I love your repetition of "common knowledge" and "common sense" as if we are all endowed with such fuzzy concepts.
Whilst you are correct that it is widely know that ill-fitting shoes can cause injury and deformity, within climbing, especially amongst younger climbers there is a trend (a very old trend reinforced by peer pressure) to get rock shoes upto 3 sizes to small and use a plastic bag to slip them on.
Some see this as quite "normal" in fact some see getting tight fitting rock shoes as "common knowledge" and "common sense."
I didn't realise that we had so many Daily Mail readers at UKClimbing.com.
Thankfully, climbing trainers, coaches and climbing wall owners are taking this report a little more seriously than the first few posters on this thread.
Mick
Lasonj...I love your repetition of "common knowledge" and "common sense" as if we are all endowed with such fuzzy concepts.
Whilst you are correct that it is widely know that ill-fitting shoes can cause injury and deformity, within climbing, especially amongst younger climbers there is a trend (a very old trend reinforced by peer pressure) to get rock shoes upto 3 sizes to small and use a plastic bag to slip them on.
Some see this as quite "normal" in fact some see getting tight fitting rock shoes as "common knowledge" and "common sense."
I didn't realise that we had so many Daily Mail readers at UKClimbing.com.
Thankfully, climbing trainers, coaches and climbing wall owners are taking this report a little more seriously than the first few posters on this thread.
Mick
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
idle speculation but is there any link to similar studies of young ballet dancers, and can any parallels be drawn? I was thinking about it in terms of how feet are put into artificial positions, with a lot of force put through them.
idle speculation but is there any link to similar studies of young ballet dancers, and can any parallels be drawn? I was thinking about it in terms of how feet are put into artificial positions, with a lot of force put through them.
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: Yes I know that climbers wear tight shoes (tho I should think that 3sizes too small is taking it a bit far) Haha, guess I'm just thinking that cos I'm not the most sensible person and EVEN I know that you shouldn't put tight shoes on kids, then I guess I just thought it followed that most folk would know that too, esp if you're a parent which I think I'm right in gathering that this 'news' is aimed at.
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: Oh and PS - I don't read the daily mail (or any other newspaper for that matter) and I take the welfair of my child very seriously indeed. I was just stating above that I thought this was 'old news' as I had read something or other about the damage that hard bouldering can do to growing children ages ago.
In reply to lasonj: Yes you may have read something (there is a book called One Move Too Many co-authored by one of the co-authors of this new report) but this is a new study with some new findings. Thats 2 x new in one sentence which to me = news
In reply to GraemeA at home: Certainly this bit is new(s) to me
'The final pubescent growth spurt is associated with an increased risk of injuries and physeal fractures.
Up to around age 12, children have a limited capacity to develop an adaptive metabolic response to specific training, but possess an accelerated ability for motor development. This suggests the emphasis of training should be on climbing an increased volume and diversity of climbing routes to improve fluency and mechanical efficiency of climbing techniques, as opposed to increasing intensity.'
'The final pubescent growth spurt is associated with an increased risk of injuries and physeal fractures.
Up to around age 12, children have a limited capacity to develop an adaptive metabolic response to specific training, but possess an accelerated ability for motor development. This suggests the emphasis of training should be on climbing an increased volume and diversity of climbing routes to improve fluency and mechanical efficiency of climbing techniques, as opposed to increasing intensity.'
In reply to lasonj:
In May 2007 UKClimbing.com registered 236,000 unique visitors across the site.
The news page gets read 90,000 times each month.
As the news person at UKClimbing.com, although Craig wrote this particular news item, I have to think beyond an individual.
> (In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com)I was just stating above that I thought this was 'old news' as I had read something .....
In May 2007 UKClimbing.com registered 236,000 unique visitors across the site.
The news page gets read 90,000 times each month.
As the news person at UKClimbing.com, although Craig wrote this particular news item, I have to think beyond an individual.
In reply to CJD:
Good call. My niece does ballet, and, when looking for approach shoes for her for her DoE bronze, was concerned about blisters, etc. My sister told me not to worry; she's used to ignoring pain in her feet, which regularly bleed after performances...
En pointe is probably much more stressful for young feet than any climbing position...
> idle speculation but is there any link to similar studies of young ballet dancers
Good call. My niece does ballet, and, when looking for approach shoes for her for her DoE bronze, was concerned about blisters, etc. My sister told me not to worry; she's used to ignoring pain in her feet, which regularly bleed after performances...
En pointe is probably much more stressful for young feet than any climbing position...
In reply to captain paranoia:
And young ballet dancers have an alarmingly high rate of serious foot injuries. (My sister trained full-time as a classical dancer in her mid to late teens, and like several others in her year, experienced a series of serious foot problems).
It's also worth bearing in mind that children have a very different perception to adults of foot discomfort - their bones are still soft and damage can be done without causing the sort of pain that would alert an adult to illfitting shoes. The other day my 6 year old returned home from school with bruises on the top of her feet ... caused by her pulling her laces far too tight. It wasn't uncomfortable until afterwards, she said.
> En pointe is probably much more stressful for young feet than any climbing position...
And young ballet dancers have an alarmingly high rate of serious foot injuries. (My sister trained full-time as a classical dancer in her mid to late teens, and like several others in her year, experienced a series of serious foot problems).
It's also worth bearing in mind that children have a very different perception to adults of foot discomfort - their bones are still soft and damage can be done without causing the sort of pain that would alert an adult to illfitting shoes. The other day my 6 year old returned home from school with bruises on the top of her feet ... caused by her pulling her laces far too tight. It wasn't uncomfortable until afterwards, she said.
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: Okay, okay, no need to get your knickers in a twist as it wasn't a critisism of you :oP Infact it wasn't even a critisism at all (so need to get defensive) it was merely an observation
In reply to all:
I'd be interested in a report into the psychological damage suffered by children being forced to go climbing and hauled up things that are too hard for them on top rope. Every young kid who's ever spoken to me at the crag (and some others who I was just spying on) only wants to go abseiling anyway. They don't need fingerboards or rockboots to do that.
I'd be interested in a report into the psychological damage suffered by children being forced to go climbing and hauled up things that are too hard for them on top rope. Every young kid who's ever spoken to me at the crag (and some others who I was just spying on) only wants to go abseiling anyway. They don't need fingerboards or rockboots to do that.
In reply to Paz:
(and some others who I was just spying on)
Lol! I wouldn't make a habit of spying on young children if I were you.
I reckon the training/finger strength side of things is more aimed at those with kids at a competitive level as opposed to your average punter taking their child cragging.
Out of interest, at what level do the childrens international bouldering comps operate at?
(and some others who I was just spying on)
Lol! I wouldn't make a habit of spying on young children if I were you.
I reckon the training/finger strength side of things is more aimed at those with kids at a competitive level as opposed to your average punter taking their child cragging.
Out of interest, at what level do the childrens international bouldering comps operate at?
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
Reminds me of those skeletons of English archers they dug up somewhere. They'd all been training from an early age, and all were deformed. Bet they couldn't half arch, though.
Reminds me of those skeletons of English archers they dug up somewhere. They'd all been training from an early age, and all were deformed. Bet they couldn't half arch, though.
In reply to Paz:
Same thing. Often, especially in the USA, you do see parents pushing their kids both mentally and physically too hard. There is a risk of both physical and mental damage.
I experienced one particular climbing protogé whose father in particular used to scream at his son if his son didn't feel like climbing.
> (In reply to all)
>
> I'd be interested in a report into the psychological damage suffered by children being forced to go climbing and hauled up things that are too hard for them on top rope.
>
> I'd be interested in a report into the psychological damage suffered by children being forced to go climbing and hauled up things that are too hard for them on top rope.
Same thing. Often, especially in the USA, you do see parents pushing their kids both mentally and physically too hard. There is a risk of both physical and mental damage.
I experienced one particular climbing protogé whose father in particular used to scream at his son if his son didn't feel like climbing.
In reply to Alan James - UKC:
Yes, JD has huge scars on his shoulders, if I remember correctly. He showed me them one time in Spain. He reckoned the tendons had more or less burst through the muscle wall or something. Sounded nasty anyway. Long break from climbing too, obviously.
>
> If I remember rightly, didn't both Moffatt and Dunne have serious injuries which required surgery.
> If I remember rightly, didn't both Moffatt and Dunne have serious injuries which required surgery.
Yes, JD has huge scars on his shoulders, if I remember correctly. He showed me them one time in Spain. He reckoned the tendons had more or less burst through the muscle wall or something. Sounded nasty anyway. Long break from climbing too, obviously.
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
The gist of this article can be applied to a variety of sports. For example, you are not allowed to enter a marathon under 18 years old. Is heading a football a great idea for developing children? Unfortunately as you say some parents purposely push their kids too hard. But, it is the parents responsibility and we don't want legislation. Do you think John Dunne would have done anything differently with hindsight?
On a side note, i am positive that tight shoes are not good for adults either. My feet developed some weird bumps with tight rock shoes. Personally I have dumped my over tight rock shoes for a pair that i can wear comfortably.
The gist of this article can be applied to a variety of sports. For example, you are not allowed to enter a marathon under 18 years old. Is heading a football a great idea for developing children? Unfortunately as you say some parents purposely push their kids too hard. But, it is the parents responsibility and we don't want legislation. Do you think John Dunne would have done anything differently with hindsight?
On a side note, i am positive that tight shoes are not good for adults either. My feet developed some weird bumps with tight rock shoes. Personally I have dumped my over tight rock shoes for a pair that i can wear comfortably.
In reply to wilding: Same with gyms and weights etc, sure you have to be a certain age before you can use them.
You can get bunions from wearing ill fitting shoes and ingrown toenails if your prone to them too.
You can get bunions from wearing ill fitting shoes and ingrown toenails if your prone to them too.
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:One Move Too Many by Petzl has some good things in it about young people and climbing,(i bought it for my own injuries and i don't have children),with Xrays of knuckle damage in joints of 14 and 15 year olds to hilight what can happen,and how crimping in particular can be bad for growing fingers. Any parent should buy it i think,it has a lot of advice about what to avoid doing in climbing in general to help avoid getting injured,i think it's worth the 30 pounds to help avoid a young person being injured maybe permenently.
Cheers
Tim
Cheers
Tim
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
Harry Enfield's Competitive Dad syndrome.
That's the worst of it, that they do it in front of you it's embarassing. It's like the old issue of when to interfere in a domestic argument. Maybe we should call social services on them.
Harry Enfield's Competitive Dad syndrome.
That's the worst of it, that they do it in front of you it's embarassing. It's like the old issue of when to interfere in a domestic argument. Maybe we should call social services on them.
In reply to Paz:
Hmm... Anyone see the Who at Glastonbury?
>
> Harry Enfield's Competitive Dad syndrome.
> Harry Enfield's Competitive Dad syndrome.
Hmm... Anyone see the Who at Glastonbury?
In reply to Paz and Mick Ryan:
I agree that it's part of the same mindset as pushing your child to climb when, or differently, from how they want to. I've seen a father telling his 8 year old off for being 'a wimp' for not wanting to lead. I've seen another telling his 6 year old off for getting tied on to 'too easy' a line. I think some parents are trying to live their thwarted climbing dreams through their kids. I expect you get the same in every area of sport or skill... and it's pretty horrible to see. And yes, it slightly amazes me that the parents in question have so little social awareness that they happily do this bullying right in front of others... they don't see it as shameful.
I agree that it's part of the same mindset as pushing your child to climb when, or differently, from how they want to. I've seen a father telling his 8 year old off for being 'a wimp' for not wanting to lead. I've seen another telling his 6 year old off for getting tied on to 'too easy' a line. I think some parents are trying to live their thwarted climbing dreams through their kids. I expect you get the same in every area of sport or skill... and it's pretty horrible to see. And yes, it slightly amazes me that the parents in question have so little social awareness that they happily do this bullying right in front of others... they don't see it as shameful.
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
Oops!
http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.php?id=69230
Still, it was only a Mod and the shoes are two sizes too big... and well, how cute?
Oops!
http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.php?id=69230
Still, it was only a Mod and the shoes are two sizes too big... and well, how cute?
In reply to Paz:
Wasn't that on the fast show played by Simon Day
http://www.bbc.co.uk/comedy/fastshow/characters/competitive_dad.shtml
> (In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com)
>
> Harry Enfield's Competitive Dad syndrome.
>
> Harry Enfield's Competitive Dad syndrome.
Wasn't that on the fast show played by Simon Day
http://www.bbc.co.uk/comedy/fastshow/characters/competitive_dad.shtml
In reply to gingerkate:
I once took a non-climbing mate and his son climbing. Son was about 10, and was fairly scared of most things I tried to put him on (as was his dad, it must be said), though he gave it all a good go. The dad pretty much spoilt the day by having an episode involving abusing his son for being too cowardly to get up a particular climb. It ended with the son in tears, and me and his father having fallen out after I tried to get him to moderate his approach. That was that really.
I once took a non-climbing mate and his son climbing. Son was about 10, and was fairly scared of most things I tried to put him on (as was his dad, it must be said), though he gave it all a good go. The dad pretty much spoilt the day by having an episode involving abusing his son for being too cowardly to get up a particular climb. It ended with the son in tears, and me and his father having fallen out after I tried to get him to moderate his approach. That was that really.
In reply to gingerkate: Yup, it's pretty awful! Something you see in other areas too, other sports and academicaly.
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
Dear Mick and Craig,
Thank you for drawing the sports climbing community's attention to this paper which is a review of most of the available medical literature on the subject of potential problems of competitive sports climbing and intensive training for youngsters. Volker, one of the authors, has done a lot of the original research and is an active climbing member of the UIAA Medical Committee. Audry is also a keen climber with a research interest in the subject.
The BMC's medical advisors and the members of the UIAA Medical Committee are aware of this important work and will be discussing it in detail at their annual meeting at Aviemore in October where Audry will make a presentation. The paper is already in curculation amongst the UIAA members and other medical experts in this field.
We hope to then be in a position to give specific advice.
Yours
David Hillebrandt
Dear Mick and Craig,
Thank you for drawing the sports climbing community's attention to this paper which is a review of most of the available medical literature on the subject of potential problems of competitive sports climbing and intensive training for youngsters. Volker, one of the authors, has done a lot of the original research and is an active climbing member of the UIAA Medical Committee. Audry is also a keen climber with a research interest in the subject.
The BMC's medical advisors and the members of the UIAA Medical Committee are aware of this important work and will be discussing it in detail at their annual meeting at Aviemore in October where Audry will make a presentation. The paper is already in curculation amongst the UIAA members and other medical experts in this field.
We hope to then be in a position to give specific advice.
Yours
David Hillebrandt
In reply to gingerkate:
What options are open to us then, because obviously they'll just go `don't you tell me how to raise my child?' if you have a polite word. If they were being noisy you could yell back and tell them to get a grip FFS etc. (I'd prefer this anyway). Maybe bothering social services or petitioning the new prime minsiter is going too far.
Maybe they could fake finger injuries. I reckon we should teach the kids some quality excuses and retorts:
"It's too greasy"
"It's too reachy"
"I can't I'm just shit and weak"
"If I do this route I want Icecream",
"Rock clibing's shit I just want to play on my
Wii"
"Let's see you do it then you fat bastard".
What options are open to us then, because obviously they'll just go `don't you tell me how to raise my child?' if you have a polite word. If they were being noisy you could yell back and tell them to get a grip FFS etc. (I'd prefer this anyway). Maybe bothering social services or petitioning the new prime minsiter is going too far.
Maybe they could fake finger injuries. I reckon we should teach the kids some quality excuses and retorts:
"It's too greasy"
"It's too reachy"
"I can't I'm just shit and weak"
"If I do this route I want Icecream",
"Rock clibing's shit I just want to play on my
Wii"
"Let's see you do it then you fat bastard".
In reply to Paz: I don't just say so, I also provided incontrovertible evidence, which is a bit more than the report on kiddies feet did....
In reply to Paz:
I know, I'd never dare say anything to them about it. Yes, teach the kids to answer back! I like the final retort the best
I know, I'd never dare say anything to them about it. Yes, teach the kids to answer back! I like the final retort the best
If you want to see REALLY bad parenting go and watch some parents with their kids at Kart tracks. A lot more money involved, much higher stakes.
I think it's interesting to find out how 'prodigies' have trained. Think Tyler Landman says he's been campus training regularly since before he was 10. Although Adam Ondra doesn't do anything other then climb to train I think. Both of them have been climbing for a long time maybe they adapted more gradually and without the specific repetitive training that would be most likely to cause injury. I guess time will tell if they've done themselves any permanent damage.
I think it's interesting to find out how 'prodigies' have trained. Think Tyler Landman says he's been campus training regularly since before he was 10. Although Adam Ondra doesn't do anything other then climb to train I think. Both of them have been climbing for a long time maybe they adapted more gradually and without the specific repetitive training that would be most likely to cause injury. I guess time will tell if they've done themselves any permanent damage.
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
Here are some links to One Move Too Many,it's not for self diagnosis,but to help you understand more about climbing and injuries.
ht tp://www.mountaingear.com/pages/product/product.asp/imanf/Hockholzer+&+Schoeffl/idesc/One+Move+Too+Many/Store/MG/item/772087/N/0
(Quote orrigional,remove the gap between the two 't's,and preview and follow the link)
http://en.petzl.com/petzl/SportProduits?Produit=478
http://www.8a.nu/site2/?IncPage=http%3A//web.8a.nu/%28j4mu3q45ovrqb355sowfa...
Tim
Here are some links to One Move Too Many,it's not for self diagnosis,but to help you understand more about climbing and injuries.
ht tp://www.mountaingear.com/pages/product/product.asp/imanf/Hockholzer+&+Schoeffl/idesc/One+Move+Too+Many/Store/MG/item/772087/N/0
(Quote orrigional,remove the gap between the two 't's,and preview and follow the link)
http://en.petzl.com/petzl/SportProduits?Produit=478
http://www.8a.nu/site2/?IncPage=http%3A//web.8a.nu/%28j4mu3q45ovrqb355sowfa...
Tim
In reply to Timmd:
I'm not assuming you don't know how to follow a link Mick,it's to make it easier for anybody who can't be bothered to cut and paste,or for if they're at work or something.
Cheers
Tim
> (In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com)
.
>
> ht tp://www.mountaingear.com/pages/product/product.asp/imanf/Hockholzer+&+Schoeffl/idesc/One+Move+Too+Many/Store/MG/item/772087/N/0
>
> (Quote orrigional,remove the gap between the two 't's,and preview and follow the link)
> ht tp://www.mountaingear.com/pages/product/product.asp/imanf/Hockholzer+&+Schoeffl/idesc/One+Move+Too+Many/Store/MG/item/772087/N/0
>
> (Quote orrigional,remove the gap between the two 't's,and preview and follow the link)
I'm not assuming you don't know how to follow a link Mick,it's to make it easier for anybody who can't be bothered to cut and paste,or for if they're at work or something.
Cheers
Tim
In reply to Timmd:Or if the don't know how to cut and paste.
In reply to lasonj:
I always thought my parents were a model of good sense when it came to footwear, but recently my older brother said they only started to get obsessive about properly fitted shoes after his feet were deformed by the cheap rubbishy ones he wore when he was a kid.
> And not squishing their feet into overly tight shoes is just common sense?
I always thought my parents were a model of good sense when it came to footwear, but recently my older brother said they only started to get obsessive about properly fitted shoes after his feet were deformed by the cheap rubbishy ones he wore when he was a kid.
In reply to Rosie A: Ok, maybe it's not a general common sense thing then. By heavens, maybe it's just actually ME that has some common sense about her, haha!
In reply to lasonj:
You? Common sense? Don't be ridiculous woman.
<grin>
Actually I was a bit obsessive about well-fitting shoes when Min was younger because I did some research into it for a magazine, but when she got older I noticed that the kids whose parents shopped for crappy plastic off-the-peg shoes in shops like Bacons seemed to be the most athletic in her school!
You? Common sense? Don't be ridiculous woman.
<grin>
Actually I was a bit obsessive about well-fitting shoes when Min was younger because I did some research into it for a magazine, but when she got older I noticed that the kids whose parents shopped for crappy plastic off-the-peg shoes in shops like Bacons seemed to be the most athletic in her school!
In reply to Rosie A: Aye, I was pretty obssesive too about it! But then I realised that you don't have to shop in Clarks for a good fitting pair of shoes. Even cheap shoes are ok as long as they fit
In reply to Rosie A: They're Mad Rock Monkeys.
Volker, as David Hillebrandt mentioned above, has been researching this topic for some time and presented evidence at the UIAA Medical Symposium at PyB last year with respect to the issues of young climbers and overuse injuries. From memory, it was based on research of young climbers in a national climbing squad - the German team, I recall.
Having seen the presentation and evidence, I wouldn't be too swift to dismiss Volker's findings.
Having seen the presentation and evidence, I wouldn't be too swift to dismiss Volker's findings.
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: I reckon our bodies are there to be used and they're certain to get a bit battered with it. Taking too much care to preserve a pristine body sounds like a bore to me.
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: The article itself, available only as an advance e-publiaction, does not seem accesible so it would be good to see it and establish on the basis of what validated evidence the conclusions have been drawn. Western society often seems to have become unusually risk averse in all sorts of areas, including sport, for both adults and children. Much of what is presented as fact is actually informed opinion. A single article like this would not unduly influence how I or my children engage in sport but we would consider it as one of the many factors to influence our decisions including exercising our personal freedom and enjoyment. And finally, I am reminded of the old saying, that more climbers die travelling by car to the start of the route, than on the route itself.
In reply to ultramarathon2006:
I'm puzzled by some of the comments here. No-one is saying children shouldn't climb! The article appears to be pointing out some potential problems of intense training in young people. I don't think anyone on this board would object if this observation were made about, say, young gymnasts or tennis players so why are we getting all defensive?
The article is in a peer-reviewed journal so I would expect it to be based on plenty of validated evidence. You may have to look up a lot of references if you really want to confirm this for yourself though!
I'm puzzled by some of the comments here. No-one is saying children shouldn't climb! The article appears to be pointing out some potential problems of intense training in young people. I don't think anyone on this board would object if this observation were made about, say, young gymnasts or tennis players so why are we getting all defensive?
The article is in a peer-reviewed journal so I would expect it to be based on plenty of validated evidence. You may have to look up a lot of references if you really want to confirm this for yourself though!
In reply to tmh:
The conclusions of this study conflicts with the findings of my own extensive research and forthcoming paper, working title 'How to hot-house your child'(enquiries from interested publishers welcome)which explores the psychological benefits for parents of shouting at their children and proposes strategies for overcoming vestiges of middle-class guilt.
The conclusions of this study conflicts with the findings of my own extensive research and forthcoming paper, working title 'How to hot-house your child'(enquiries from interested publishers welcome)which explores the psychological benefits for parents of shouting at their children and proposes strategies for overcoming vestiges of middle-class guilt.
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