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In reply to Dom Orsler:
I like what Sonnie posts - "After climb Cobra Crack last year, and trying the E11 route Rhapsody in Scotland in May I can confidently call this new line one of the words hardest and BEST traditial lines.". I would rather believe what he says about climbing hard, than a groupie.
I like what Sonnie posts - "After climb Cobra Crack last year, and trying the E11 route Rhapsody in Scotland in May I can confidently call this new line one of the words hardest and BEST traditial lines.". I would rather believe what he says about climbing hard, than a groupie.
In reply to Dom Orsler:
What's `solid 5.14' mean? Rhapsody's a sandbag at 5.14c R, and although he hasn't said its harder than that, if it was you'd think it would've taken him a little longer, unless he's far more of a trad beast than I assumed (yes I know he's done Cobra Crack etc.) in which case he's capable of even more. Canada does have many excellent lines, but isn't noted for its reliable climbing conditions..
The route does look great like, fantastic effort.
What's `solid 5.14' mean? Rhapsody's a sandbag at 5.14c R, and although he hasn't said its harder than that, if it was you'd think it would've taken him a little longer, unless he's far more of a trad beast than I assumed (yes I know he's done Cobra Crack etc.) in which case he's capable of even more. Canada does have many excellent lines, but isn't noted for its reliable climbing conditions..
The route does look great like, fantastic effort.
In reply to Paz:
What, compared to where exactly?
Over the last three weeks in Squamish - it rained (meaningfully) once. Meanwhile, back in the old country: http://davemacleod.blogspot.com/2007/08/great-frustration.html
> Canada .... isn't noted for its reliable climbing conditions..
What, compared to where exactly?
Over the last three weeks in Squamish - it rained (meaningfully) once. Meanwhile, back in the old country: http://davemacleod.blogspot.com/2007/08/great-frustration.html
In reply to Dom Orsler:
As a patriotic Canadian, you'll have been delighted to see Sonny wearing the stars and stripes on his back.
Do we have any wild guesses as to what E-grade this represents in order to keep this from slipping of the front page?
As a patriotic Canadian, you'll have been delighted to see Sonny wearing the stars and stripes on his back.
Do we have any wild guesses as to what E-grade this represents in order to keep this from slipping of the front page?
In reply to duncan:
i don't think it would get a severe E grade as it's pretty well protected the whole way up
i don't think it would get a severe E grade as it's pretty well protected the whole way up
In reply to duncan:
I'll start the bidding at E10.75
> (In reply to Dom Orsler)
>
>
> Do we have any wild guesses as to what E-grade this represents in order to keep this from slipping of the front page?
I'll start the bidding at E10.75
In reply to Norrie Muir:
Ironically I believe Mr Trotter has or had a 'groupie' who also climbed 5.14.
> I like what Sonnie posts ..... I would rather believe what he says about climbing hard, than a groupie.
Ironically I believe Mr Trotter has or had a 'groupie' who also climbed 5.14.
In reply to Dom Orsler:
The pictures make it look like lots of crimping... would suit Dave Macleod's style. Perhaps he should consider a quick second asscent given his current good form in Steall.
The pictures make it look like lots of crimping... would suit Dave Macleod's style. Perhaps he should consider a quick second asscent given his current good form in Steall.
In reply to centerelmurray:
If it's bottom end 5.14 and well protected it's at least E8. As he said it's 'solid 5.14 and run out' I expect it to be quite a bit harder.
> (In reply to duncan)
>
> i don't think it would get a severe E grade as it's pretty well protected the whole way up
>
> i don't think it would get a severe E grade as it's pretty well protected the whole way up
If it's bottom end 5.14 and well protected it's at least E8. As he said it's 'solid 5.14 and run out' I expect it to be quite a bit harder.
In reply to Serpico:
Actually thinking about it, Birketts 'Welcome to the cruel world' is well protected 8b+ and he gave that E9.
Actually thinking about it, Birketts 'Welcome to the cruel world' is well protected 8b+ and he gave that E9.
In reply to Serpico: yeah i didn't phrase that correctly. Basically i don't think it's in the same region as rhapsody.
In reply to Serpico: is that everyday 'well protected' of birkett 'well protected'?
In reply to centerelmurray:
So you have tried both then?
> (In reply to Serpico) yeah i didn't phrase that correctly. Basically i don't think it's in the same region as rhapsody.
So you have tried both then?
In reply to catt: nope. i guess i didn't realize only the opinions of E11 climbers were valid.
my bad.
my bad.
In reply to centerelmurray:
Birket well protected probably would mean that if you time the fall right and land on your feet it might not kill you. But then look at Warning, no gear and he gave that E8, can't remember the tech grade
Birket well protected probably would mean that if you time the fall right and land on your feet it might not kill you. But then look at Warning, no gear and he gave that E8, can't remember the tech grade
In reply to Serpico:
If 8b and 8b+ is equivalent to E8 on bolts then 8b+ placing gear is maybe E9 - at a more realistic grade you don't get many E5s with 7b climbing. If solid 5.14 means 8c / 8c+ and its runnout then a minimum of E10 sounds likely.
I would think that the list of trad routes with climbing of 8c or harder climbed placing gear on lead is pretty (very!)small so pretty impressive stuff.
> (In reply to Serpico)
> Actually thinking about it, Birketts 'Welcome to the cruel world' is well protected 8b+ and he gave that E9.
> Actually thinking about it, Birketts 'Welcome to the cruel world' is well protected 8b+ and he gave that E9.
If 8b and 8b+ is equivalent to E8 on bolts then 8b+ placing gear is maybe E9 - at a more realistic grade you don't get many E5s with 7b climbing. If solid 5.14 means 8c / 8c+ and its runnout then a minimum of E10 sounds likely.
I would think that the list of trad routes with climbing of 8c or harder climbed placing gear on lead is pretty (very!)small so pretty impressive stuff.
In reply to Ian Patterson:
I'd say that list is probably Cobra Crack, Rhapsody and this beast so very small indeed!
I'd say that list is probably Cobra Crack, Rhapsody and this beast so very small indeed!
In reply to Ian Patterson:
<anorak alert>Slightly sub-F8c presumably but also in North America are Iron Monkey 5.14a R at Eldo and The Tombstone 5.14? R outside Moab. Both featured along with Cobra Crack in the First Ascent DVD. </anorak alert>
> I would think that the list of trad routes with climbing of 8c or harder climbed placing gear on lead is pretty (very!)small so pretty impressive stuff.
<anorak alert>Slightly sub-F8c presumably but also in North America are Iron Monkey 5.14a R at Eldo and The Tombstone 5.14? R outside Moab. Both featured along with Cobra Crack in the First Ascent DVD. </anorak alert>
In reply to centerelmurray:
if a route might be e10ish then yes, only the views of climbers opperating near that level are genuinely0 valid.
however, to add my own low-level, pointless speculation:
look at eg chubacabra in huntsman's which is supposed to be runout but safe 8a and hard e8; divided years 8a/+ ish safe big falls etc so guess this new line would come in e9-e11...
> (In reply to catt) nope. i guess i didn't realize only the opinions of E11 climbers were valid.
>
> my bad.
>
> my bad.
if a route might be e10ish then yes, only the views of climbers opperating near that level are genuinely0 valid.
however, to add my own low-level, pointless speculation:
look at eg chubacabra in huntsman's which is supposed to be runout but safe 8a and hard e8; divided years 8a/+ ish safe big falls etc so guess this new line would come in e9-e11...
In reply to abarro81: Chupacabra was initially said to be 8a+ and E9, with 100 foot fall potential from the crux. Neil Mawson said that he found a new runner placement just before the crux and that meant that the route was E8 rather than E9.
In reply to several People: (Bear with me this is a pet peeve of mine.) What is it with the English language that makes the hyperbole seemingly the only possible stylistic tool? Is Andrew Marvell perhaps to blame that everything is touted as the best line, most amazing, hardest route in Universe?
This world of ours is a big place, and it's not realistic to believe that even well-traveled climbers, ohh.... excuse me: the most well traveled climber in the Multiverse (almost forgot to make an overstatement there puh...), can have enough experience to identify the hardest traditional routes in the world.
How does any of these routes compare to Lurgorri for instance? Well, I wouldn't know.
This world of ours is a big place, and it's not realistic to believe that even well-traveled climbers, ohh.... excuse me: the most well traveled climber in the Multiverse (almost forgot to make an overstatement there puh...), can have enough experience to identify the hardest traditional routes in the world.
How does any of these routes compare to Lurgorri for instance? Well, I wouldn't know.
In reply to jwi:
Is Andrew Marvell perhaps to blame that everything is touted as the best line, most amazing, hardest route in Universe?
Is Andrew Marvell perhaps to blame that everything is touted as the best line, most amazing, hardest route in Universe?
>
Is Andrew related to Captain Marvel? In reply to jwi:
My question/point was carefully phrased, according to http://www.freakclimbing.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid... protection was pre-placed on Lurgorri.
As to hyperbole I think reporting of British trad climbing can be a bit over the top sometimes but would argue that routes such as Rapsody, Cobra Crack and this latest route are pushing at the boundries with properly hard climbing on natural gear (something that maybe isn't so true with some other big grade UK trad routes) - unless someone knows otherwise of course.
>
> How does any of these routes compare to Lurgorri for instance? Well, I wouldn't know.
> How does any of these routes compare to Lurgorri for instance? Well, I wouldn't know.
My question/point was carefully phrased, according to http://www.freakclimbing.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid... protection was pre-placed on Lurgorri.
As to hyperbole I think reporting of British trad climbing can be a bit over the top sometimes but would argue that routes such as Rapsody, Cobra Crack and this latest route are pushing at the boundries with properly hard climbing on natural gear (something that maybe isn't so true with some other big grade UK trad routes) - unless someone knows otherwise of course.
In reply to jwi:
I'm not sure if that is really true - the reverse can also be used, for example Mick Fowler's understatement can actually be a bit annoying because he never really says how hard something was or how scared he is. Perhaps it is more a function of 'news'.
> (In reply to several People) (Bear with me this is a pet peeve of mine.) What is it with the English language that makes the hyperbole seemingly the only possible stylistic tool?
I'm not sure if that is really true - the reverse can also be used, for example Mick Fowler's understatement can actually be a bit annoying because he never really says how hard something was or how scared he is. Perhaps it is more a function of 'news'.
In reply to centerelmurray: What a ridiculous statement! DO you know anything about what you're trying to talk about?
Seems the only person qualified to comment on how hard it is compared to the likes of Rhapsody and Cobra Crack is Sonnie himself, and he seems to think it's as hard, so i'd take his word for it.
As much of a great climber as Dave Mcleod is, there's a strange tendency for people on here to think he's far and away the best in the world. No disrespect to him, but there's a lot of others out there who are better.
Seems the only person qualified to comment on how hard it is compared to the likes of Rhapsody and Cobra Crack is Sonnie himself, and he seems to think it's as hard, so i'd take his word for it.
As much of a great climber as Dave Mcleod is, there's a strange tendency for people on here to think he's far and away the best in the world. No disrespect to him, but there's a lot of others out there who are better.
In reply to GDes:
Do you think so? I guess there are probably specialist boulderers who are better or specialist sport climbers, but as an all-rounder I think he's pretty close to the top of the pile, and trad seems a very strong suit for him don't you think?
> As much of a great climber as Dave Mcleod is, there's a strange tendency for people on here to think he's far and away the best in the world. No disrespect to him, but there's a lot of others out there who are better.
Do you think so? I guess there are probably specialist boulderers who are better or specialist sport climbers, but as an all-rounder I think he's pretty close to the top of the pile, and trad seems a very strong suit for him don't you think?
In reply to niggle: I would argue that if most of the strong euro sport climbers out there lived somewhere like scotland, they would also have some big trad numbers under there belts. It's circumstantial.
In reply to GDes:
Good point!
> I would argue that if most of the strong euro sport climbers out there lived somewhere like scotland, they would also have some big trad numbers under there belts. It's circumstantial.
Good point!
In reply to GDes:
A lot of climbers climbing E10/E11?
>
> ... No disrespect to him, but there's a lot of others out there who are better.
> ... No disrespect to him, but there's a lot of others out there who are better.
A lot of climbers climbing E10/E11?
In reply to niggle: no it's not, its a bad point.. it's the old 'if a euro-wad came over he could onsight all our e9s' argument: sure they probably could but you dont get marks for having the potential to do stuff, you've gotta actually do it
In reply to GDes:
Maybe, but, only if they did most of their sport climbing abroad. Scotland has not got even a 9a sport route to it's name, yet.
> (In reply to niggle) I would argue that if most of the strong euro sport climbers out there lived somewhere like scotland, they would also have some big trad numbers under there belts. It's circumstantial.
Maybe, but, only if they did most of their sport climbing abroad. Scotland has not got even a 9a sport route to it's name, yet.
In reply to The Bantam:
Nope, since the E-grade is just mainly used in the UK... And interestingly enough, there's actually something worth climbing also outside the UK .
> A lot of climbers climbing E10/E11?
Nope, since the E-grade is just mainly used in the UK... And interestingly enough, there's actually something worth climbing also outside the UK .
In reply to Mick:
It's been christened The Path (ho ho ho!), 14b R.
http://www.rockandice.com/inthemag.php?id=66&type=onlinenews
In reply to GDes:
Alternatively, I'm curious as to why more Brits don't get on things like this, or the routes that tobyfk mentions, or Bellavista, Panorama, Arctandria, Salathe, El Corazon, The Nose...we're good at trad. climbing right?
It's been christened The Path (ho ho ho!), 14b R.
http://www.rockandice.com/inthemag.php?id=66&type=onlinenews
In reply to GDes:
> I would argue that if most of the strong euro sport climbers out there lived somewhere like scotland, they would also have some big trad numbers under there belts.
Alternatively, I'm curious as to why more Brits don't get on things like this, or the routes that tobyfk mentions, or Bellavista, Panorama, Arctandria, Salathe, El Corazon, The Nose...we're good at trad. climbing right?
In reply to abarro81:
Plus of course many of the harder UK trad routes aren't 'that' safe, which means that very good sport climbers might not be so comfortable climbing so hard on gear.
Of course there have been plenty who have made the transition - Alex Huber being an obvious example, and I don't want to go down the path of saying sport climbing is for wusses, because its clearly isn't. Even at my rather lowly level, I've often found doing the crux of a sport route above a bolt, much more terrifying, than doing the same difficulty of move on a crack climb where you just pop another runner in!
> . it's the old 'if a euro-wad came over he could onsight all our e9s' argument: sure they probably could but you dont get marks for having the potential to do stuff, you've gotta actually do it
Plus of course many of the harder UK trad routes aren't 'that' safe, which means that very good sport climbers might not be so comfortable climbing so hard on gear.
Of course there have been plenty who have made the transition - Alex Huber being an obvious example, and I don't want to go down the path of saying sport climbing is for wusses, because its clearly isn't. Even at my rather lowly level, I've often found doing the crux of a sport route above a bolt, much more terrifying, than doing the same difficulty of move on a crack climb where you just pop another runner in!
In reply to TobyA: Of course I exaggerated a bit, but that just proves my point doesn't it?
(No, I don't think it is a function of 'news'. Sport news-sites written in the few other languages I can read really doesn't use the same kind of inflated language.
My personal theory is really that the love the groundbreaking poets of the British 16-17th century held for the hyperbole still affects how English is written, both in the US and in the UK. Particularly in lesser prose.)
(No, I don't think it is a function of 'news'. Sport news-sites written in the few other languages I can read really doesn't use the same kind of inflated language.
My personal theory is really that the love the groundbreaking poets of the British 16-17th century held for the hyperbole still affects how English is written, both in the US and in the UK. Particularly in lesser prose.)
In reply to jwi:
Flowery language laced with hyperbole and giving more credence to style rather than content.
Perhaps English reportage can be accused of this on a minor scale however the above perfectly describes only one language.........Italian.
To be fair I think the whole argument is tosh really. The French like to imply that everything they do is the hardest without actually saying it. The Spanish have a great history of undermining their top climbing achievements with overgrading and dubious claims. The Yanks spent years having their insular bubble burst every time a top European climber visited and pissed all their hard routes until Sharma and Graham came along and now they KNOW they're the best! And us Brits look disdainfully on them all as we invented this game, we've got the history, our routes/ethics/traditions are the best and it's our ball anyway and we'll take it home if you don't agree.
Who cares? Get strong and get on with it.
Flowery language laced with hyperbole and giving more credence to style rather than content.
Perhaps English reportage can be accused of this on a minor scale however the above perfectly describes only one language.........Italian.
To be fair I think the whole argument is tosh really. The French like to imply that everything they do is the hardest without actually saying it. The Spanish have a great history of undermining their top climbing achievements with overgrading and dubious claims. The Yanks spent years having their insular bubble burst every time a top European climber visited and pissed all their hard routes until Sharma and Graham came along and now they KNOW they're the best! And us Brits look disdainfully on them all as we invented this game, we've got the history, our routes/ethics/traditions are the best and it's our ball anyway and we'll take it home if you don't agree.
Who cares? Get strong and get on with it.
In reply to jwi:
Jonas, I know you're relatively new here so I think it is time someone told you that it is OK to be intellectual/ cultural (cf Gordon 'Peaks' Stainworth) or strong/ good ... but definitely not both.
> My personal theory is really that the love the groundbreaking poets of the British 16-17th century held for the hyperbole still affects how English is written, both in the US and in the UK. Particularly in lesser prose.
Jonas, I know you're relatively new here so I think it is time someone told you that it is OK to be intellectual/ cultural (cf Gordon 'Peaks' Stainworth) or strong/ good ... but definitely not both.
In reply to TobyA: What do you mean by making the transition? This is the thing, trad climbing isn't soley a UK thing, it happens everywhere! I'm fairly sure Huber etc didn't think "ooh i think I'l have a bash at this UK style of climbing".
If it so happened that ethics had eveloved in Spain where bolting was frowned upon then yes, there would be a lot of people who would have climbed the equivalent to "E11" on trad, i.e 8c or harder, only they would have just graded it 8c, with maybe a mention of being a bit necky if it was.
If it so happened that ethics had eveloved in Spain where bolting was frowned upon then yes, there would be a lot of people who would have climbed the equivalent to "E11" on trad, i.e 8c or harder, only they would have just graded it 8c, with maybe a mention of being a bit necky if it was.
In reply to GDes:
FFS this is pure conjecture. How the feck do you know what "would" have happened?! What a ridiculous argument, you should all be ashamed.
>
> If it so happened that ethics had eveloved in Spain where bolting was frowned upon then yes, there would be a lot of people who would have climbed the equivalent to "E11" on trad, i.e 8c or harder, only they would have just graded it 8c, with maybe a mention of being a bit necky if it was.
>
> If it so happened that ethics had eveloved in Spain where bolting was frowned upon then yes, there would be a lot of people who would have climbed the equivalent to "E11" on trad, i.e 8c or harder, only they would have just graded it 8c, with maybe a mention of being a bit necky if it was.
>
FFS this is pure conjecture. How the feck do you know what "would" have happened?! What a ridiculous argument, you should all be ashamed.
In reply to seagull: It's not a ridiculous argument. What's ridiculous is some people in the UK having this notion that only the UK know how to trad climb, and the only hard trad routes in the world are in the UK. Which is just utterly untrue. To list a few of the hardest in the world right now...
Cobra Crack (Canada) 8c+?
This new one Sonnie Trotter has just done (Canada) 8c/8c+
Rhapsody (Scotland) 8c+
The one in the Picos by Iker Pou, 8c+
Bellavista by Huber, Dolomites, 8c
The "hardest crack in Europe" recently done by Didier Berthod, 8b+
Cobra Crack (Canada) 8c+?
This new one Sonnie Trotter has just done (Canada) 8c/8c+
Rhapsody (Scotland) 8c+
The one in the Picos by Iker Pou, 8c+
Bellavista by Huber, Dolomites, 8c
The "hardest crack in Europe" recently done by Didier Berthod, 8b+
In reply to GDes: The Pou route is not a trad route - http://www.freakclimbing.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid... - the fifth pitch has 8 bolts in 55 metres.
In reply to GDes:
Not UK style, Yosemite cracks. I read an article by him years ago about when he first went to California and failed on a 5.10 or something (this is when he was leading 8c+ in Europe). He and his brother spent the summer training and their amazing free routes on El Cap are the result. I think that the Hubers mountaineered with their parents when young so they may have had some trad back ground that way.
And trad clearly doesn't happen everywhere - it happens in many places but that isn't the same thing. In Finland there is a group that has bolted HVS crack climbs because they had done all their climbing previously in Spain and just thought all "civilised climbing", as they put it, was like that. TobyFK and me met two amazing French guys in Lofoten a few year back but they said they had basically not climbed trad before, despite both leading 8aish. It wasn't holding them back though, but they seemed as brave as anything... I've met plenty of other central European climbers who had only climbed on bolts. If you don't mountaineer or climb in some of the more idiosyncratic regions like the East German sandstone towers or Scandinavia, many European climbers will have only sport climbed.
I need to write my review of the most recent Vertical, but check the article on "Swiss Extreme" a picture of an amazing crack pitch - the whole route is based around that crack - and it has a line of bolts next to it.
My point is that excellent climbers often are excellent in all disciplines, but not all will be. Weighing up the risks you take is very personal and some will only push themselves physically very hard when they know the pro (be that bolts or trad gear) is good.
I've got mates who are much much better rock climbers than me - climbing many grades harder. But they don't lead as hard (which is very hard!) as I do on ice. I'm sure they could hang on to their tools much longer than I can, but their hearts clearly aren't in it - which is fine: their judgement, each to their own.
p.s. Sorry I haven't replied to your email yet. I would like to write but am kinda of dying under PhD and other writing commitments currently. Perhaps I'll bang something out late one night and see if you like it.
> (In reply to TobyA) What do you mean by making the transition? This is the thing, trad climbing isn't soley a UK thing, it happens everywhere! I'm fairly sure Huber etc didn't think "ooh i think I'l have a bash at this UK style of climbing".
Not UK style, Yosemite cracks. I read an article by him years ago about when he first went to California and failed on a 5.10 or something (this is when he was leading 8c+ in Europe). He and his brother spent the summer training and their amazing free routes on El Cap are the result. I think that the Hubers mountaineered with their parents when young so they may have had some trad back ground that way.
And trad clearly doesn't happen everywhere - it happens in many places but that isn't the same thing. In Finland there is a group that has bolted HVS crack climbs because they had done all their climbing previously in Spain and just thought all "civilised climbing", as they put it, was like that. TobyFK and me met two amazing French guys in Lofoten a few year back but they said they had basically not climbed trad before, despite both leading 8aish. It wasn't holding them back though, but they seemed as brave as anything... I've met plenty of other central European climbers who had only climbed on bolts. If you don't mountaineer or climb in some of the more idiosyncratic regions like the East German sandstone towers or Scandinavia, many European climbers will have only sport climbed.
I need to write my review of the most recent Vertical, but check the article on "Swiss Extreme" a picture of an amazing crack pitch - the whole route is based around that crack - and it has a line of bolts next to it.
My point is that excellent climbers often are excellent in all disciplines, but not all will be. Weighing up the risks you take is very personal and some will only push themselves physically very hard when they know the pro (be that bolts or trad gear) is good.
I've got mates who are much much better rock climbers than me - climbing many grades harder. But they don't lead as hard (which is very hard!) as I do on ice. I'm sure they could hang on to their tools much longer than I can, but their hearts clearly aren't in it - which is fine: their judgement, each to their own.
p.s. Sorry I haven't replied to your email yet. I would like to write but am kinda of dying under PhD and other writing commitments currently. Perhaps I'll bang something out late one night and see if you like it.
In reply to GDes:
I don't think anyone really thinks that if they have traveled a bit, Ged. Finland has really only had a climbing scene for 20 years and it was literally a handful of people to start off with, but there are trad routes here that would be high E grades already that no one makes a big deal about.
> What's ridiculous is some people in the UK having this notion that only the UK know how to trad climb, and the only hard trad routes in the world are in the UK.
I don't think anyone really thinks that if they have traveled a bit, Ged. Finland has really only had a climbing scene for 20 years and it was literally a handful of people to start off with, but there are trad routes here that would be high E grades already that no one makes a big deal about.
In reply to TobyA: Cheers no worries, great if you get chance. If not i may pick your brains at some other point nearer to my trip there.
http://www.planetfear.com/news_detail.asp?n_id=6396
Towards the end mentions some of there trad climbs, including the 8c+. The rest of the route has the ocasional bolt, bu the first pitch is entirely trad.
Towards the end mentions some of there trad climbs, including the 8c+. The rest of the route has the ocasional bolt, bu the first pitch is entirely trad.
In reply to TobyA: I think there are folk in the UK who think that, but as you say maybe they haven't climbed very far afield. Speaking about weekend warrior types now rather than superheroes, having climbed in the States and many spots in Europe, I'm no longer under any illusions that generally UK climbers are better at trad than anywhere else.
In reply to GDes: 'Although they preplaced protections for the redpoint, including pitons, the brothers used a minimum number of bolts on the route'
In reply to John2: but no bolts were placed on the first pitch. The 8c+ pitch is purely on trad.
And I suspect if one were to climb the rest of the route, it wouldnt feel very much like sport climbing! The rainbow slab has bolts on it, that isnt sport climbing.
And I suspect if one were to climb the rest of the route, it wouldnt feel very much like sport climbing! The rainbow slab has bolts on it, that isnt sport climbing.
In reply to GDes:
Oh come on Ged. We're the best! Fly the British (or Scottish) flag!
Jerry smoked em in 1980 something with his on-sight of Phoenix. Vickers was up there in the 1990s. The best trad climber currently in the UK is James MaCaffie. Without a doubt. But he doesn't have a blog... and he hasn't travelled overseas to prove it. Yet.
Headpointing is esoterica. It was 'invented' here because of our lack of rock and no-bolts ethic. You're right - if Scotland was full of overhanging Tufas, I doubt Macleod would be earning a crust from his latest E11 redpoint.
Oh come on Ged. We're the best! Fly the British (or Scottish) flag!
Jerry smoked em in 1980 something with his on-sight of Phoenix. Vickers was up there in the 1990s. The best trad climber currently in the UK is James MaCaffie. Without a doubt. But he doesn't have a blog... and he hasn't travelled overseas to prove it. Yet.
Headpointing is esoterica. It was 'invented' here because of our lack of rock and no-bolts ethic. You're right - if Scotland was full of overhanging Tufas, I doubt Macleod would be earning a crust from his latest E11 redpoint.
In reply to Tom, UKC News Editor: Ok ok, we're the best!
You're right in the past the Brits have gone and showed all them bloody foreigners how it's done, but there's no doubt that sport climbing standards have progressed a lot quicker abroad than they have here, resulting in more strong climbers there. Nowadays is there many cases of brits going and cleaning up abroad? More the other way round isnt it with these ozzie nutbags dispatching every route in the peak in 3 and a half days? Thank god they havent discovered Northumberland and the Lakes yet so we can keep pretending it's hard up here!
You're right in the past the Brits have gone and showed all them bloody foreigners how it's done, but there's no doubt that sport climbing standards have progressed a lot quicker abroad than they have here, resulting in more strong climbers there. Nowadays is there many cases of brits going and cleaning up abroad? More the other way round isnt it with these ozzie nutbags dispatching every route in the peak in 3 and a half days? Thank god they havent discovered Northumberland and the Lakes yet so we can keep pretending it's hard up here!
In reply to John2: 'The route is 250m long, and the most difficult pitch is the first one, 8c+ (35m): it goes through a big roof with no bolts!'
In reply to GDes:
Tyler Landam (sp?) is keeping the flag flying finely, and he's hardly out of primary school as I understand it!
> Nowadays is there many cases of brits going and cleaning up abroad?
Tyler Landam (sp?) is keeping the flag flying finely, and he's hardly out of primary school as I understand it!
In reply to TobyA:
But strictly speaking isn't Tyler American, just brought up here?
> (In reply to Ged Desforges)
> [...]
>
> Tyler Landam (sp?) is keeping the flag flying finely, and he's hardly out of primary school as I understand it!
> [...]
>
> Tyler Landam (sp?) is keeping the flag flying finely, and he's hardly out of primary school as I understand it!
But strictly speaking isn't Tyler American, just brought up here?
In reply to seagull (and some other people): Apparently I am failing horrible to express myself accurately. I am not dissing national or regional pride this time, in fact I think it quite often is a good thing. I am not even dissing the hyperbole. I am dissing overuse of overstatements, something quite different I think.
(Just to give you an example: This morning I saw the trailer for King-lines or whatever. They went on and on about traveling the world to find and climb the best lines in the world. In the trailer there are clips from various routes. None of them was exactly The Nose, or even Masters Edge or Cobra Crack, it was nondescript connect-the-dots faceclimbing. In every f*cking route they showed. All horribly difficult I'm sure, but not one of them followed an impressive line.)
(Just to give you an example: This morning I saw the trailer for King-lines or whatever. They went on and on about traveling the world to find and climb the best lines in the world. In the trailer there are clips from various routes. None of them was exactly The Nose, or even Masters Edge or Cobra Crack, it was nondescript connect-the-dots faceclimbing. In every f*cking route they showed. All horribly difficult I'm sure, but not one of them followed an impressive line.)
In reply to GDes:
I would argue that if most of the strong euro sport climbers out there lived somewhere like Scotland they wouldn't be as good at sport as they are. It's circumstantial.
jcm
> (In reply to niggle) I would argue that if most of the strong euro sport climbers out there lived somewhere like scotland, they would also have some big trad numbers under there belts. It's circumstantial.
I would argue that if most of the strong euro sport climbers out there lived somewhere like Scotland they wouldn't be as good at sport as they are. It's circumstantial.
jcm
In reply to TobyA:
>But they don't lead as hard (which is very hard!) as I do on ice.
I'm not sure that quite comes over how you meant it, Toby.....
jcm
>But they don't lead as hard (which is very hard!) as I do on ice.
I'm not sure that quite comes over how you meant it, Toby.....
jcm
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
As I have no idea what "W14" means as a grade I don't know how Toby meant it?!
As I have no idea what "W14" means as a grade I don't know how Toby meant it?!
In reply to seagull:
I don't know what WI4 means either but I do know Toby's a self-deprecating punter and proud of it. I think a 'not' was omitted.
jcm
I don't know what WI4 means either but I do know Toby's a self-deprecating punter and proud of it. I think a 'not' was omitted.
jcm
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
How do you know that I haven't been reading American management guru self help books (or indeed according to Jonas, 17th century poetry) and now every morning I look in the mirror and say "hey goodlookin'! You're the best! You rule! You can do anything!"?
Hmmm... maybe not.
Yes sorry, that should have been "isn't very hard".
> I don't know what WI4 means either but I do know Toby's a self-deprecating punter and proud of it. I think a 'not' was omitted.
How do you know that I haven't been reading American management guru self help books (or indeed according to Jonas, 17th century poetry) and now every morning I look in the mirror and say "hey goodlookin'! You're the best! You rule! You can do anything!"?
Hmmm... maybe not.
Yes sorry, that should have been "isn't very hard".
In reply to seagull:
It's a 1 not an i. W14 is presumably a postcode somewhere toward Heathrow airport? Possibly you onsight that if you follow the M4 to its end.
> As I have no idea what "W14" means as a grade I don't know how Toby meant it?!
It's a 1 not an i. W14 is presumably a postcode somewhere toward Heathrow airport? Possibly you onsight that if you follow the M4 to its end.
In reply to TobyA:
>How do you know that I haven't been reading American management guru self help books (or indeed according to Jonas, 17th century poetry) and now every morning I look in the mirror and say "hey goodlookin'! You're the best! You rule! You can do anything!"?
Doesn't everyone do that??
jcm
>How do you know that I haven't been reading American management guru self help books (or indeed according to Jonas, 17th century poetry) and now every morning I look in the mirror and say "hey goodlookin'! You're the best! You rule! You can do anything!"?
Doesn't everyone do that??
jcm
In reply to tobyfk:
Not the Peak, but South England, the American Desert, Spain, Pembroke, Yosemite even, a lot of other places in the US for all I know, Australia, Thailand, Croatia, (how was the UAE?), Morrocco (?) etc. etc.
Come on, it pissed down all last summer and the year before. Three weeks this year isn't going to make anyone move there permanently for the -summer- climbing.
> compared to where exactly?
Not the Peak, but South England, the American Desert, Spain, Pembroke, Yosemite even, a lot of other places in the US for all I know, Australia, Thailand, Croatia, (how was the UAE?), Morrocco (?) etc. etc.
Come on, it pissed down all last summer and the year before. Three weeks this year isn't going to make anyone move there permanently for the -summer- climbing.
In reply to Paz:
Wouldn't argue with much of that. But I am not sure how it relates to your original point higher in the thread. Self-evidently there's little correlation between a country's weather and people's propensity to trad-climb. Or, if there is a correlation (*) it's negative: there's a greater enthusiasm for sport climbing in places with nice weather. Perhaps sunshine makes people think "b*llocks to ethics"? (OK, flogged this theme far enough ...)
* before anyone pulls me up on this, despite working in a stats-intensive profession I have no real idea what correlation means.
Wouldn't argue with much of that. But I am not sure how it relates to your original point higher in the thread. Self-evidently there's little correlation between a country's weather and people's propensity to trad-climb. Or, if there is a correlation (*) it's negative: there's a greater enthusiasm for sport climbing in places with nice weather. Perhaps sunshine makes people think "b*llocks to ethics"? (OK, flogged this theme far enough ...)
* before anyone pulls me up on this, despite working in a stats-intensive profession I have no real idea what correlation means.
In reply to Serpico:
You're trampling on one of the most firmly-rooted beliefs in UK climbing there; that anyone who's stopped over for longer than a transit at Heathrow is authentically British and may have their ascents claimed for Blighty accordingly. ie Silvia Fitzpatrick (Argentine), Jude Spancken (German), that Irish girl who did F8a recently, <insert other examples>
Talking of which, that Trotter was over here earlier in the year, and lots of Canucks have a Brit ancestor reasonably-proximate in their family tree ...
> But strictly speaking isn't Tyler American, just brought up here?
You're trampling on one of the most firmly-rooted beliefs in UK climbing there; that anyone who's stopped over for longer than a transit at Heathrow is authentically British and may have their ascents claimed for Blighty accordingly. ie Silvia Fitzpatrick (Argentine), Jude Spancken (German), that Irish girl who did F8a recently, <insert other examples>
Talking of which, that Trotter was over here earlier in the year, and lots of Canucks have a Brit ancestor reasonably-proximate in their family tree ...
In reply to Dom Orsler:
Why do people refer to headpointing as being 'traditional'? The real cutting edge trad climbers are the ones con-sighting pukka E6/7 ground-up, and I'm quite sure they're not all UK climbers. There's a couple of Austrian guys who've been doing routes out in Wadi Rum for years now, 500m routes up to F7b+ on knotted slings; now that's cutting edge trad.
Why do people refer to headpointing as being 'traditional'? The real cutting edge trad climbers are the ones con-sighting pukka E6/7 ground-up, and I'm quite sure they're not all UK climbers. There's a couple of Austrian guys who've been doing routes out in Wadi Rum for years now, 500m routes up to F7b+ on knotted slings; now that's cutting edge trad.
In reply to Wry Gob:
Meanwhile at Squamish:
Aug 27, 2007 - Squamish Prow Wall Free Ascent
Local Squamish climber Will Stanhope has completed the much-coveted first free ascent of The Prow Wall on the Chief. Stanhope, with Lucas Holtzman jugging in support, climbed the wall via Teddy Bear's Picnic 5.12d adding a few extra pitches to link the route from the bottom of the wall. Jeremy Blumel had climbed the first free ascent of Teddy Bear's Picnic as a rap route from the rim, but the entire wall had not seen a continuous free ascent. During the climb Stanhope avoided the original 5.12b third pitch and instead climbed a 5.12d variation tips corner. The difficult 5.12+ route climbs 8 pitches: 5.10, 5.10, 5.12-, 5.11+, 5.12+, 5.12+, 5.12+, 5.11+. Having rebuffed attempts by Sonnie Trotter, Jean-Pierre Ouellet and Matt Maddaloni, the route is considered somewhat of a sandbag
From Gripped Mag.
Meanwhile at Squamish:
Aug 27, 2007 - Squamish Prow Wall Free Ascent
Local Squamish climber Will Stanhope has completed the much-coveted first free ascent of The Prow Wall on the Chief. Stanhope, with Lucas Holtzman jugging in support, climbed the wall via Teddy Bear's Picnic 5.12d adding a few extra pitches to link the route from the bottom of the wall. Jeremy Blumel had climbed the first free ascent of Teddy Bear's Picnic as a rap route from the rim, but the entire wall had not seen a continuous free ascent. During the climb Stanhope avoided the original 5.12b third pitch and instead climbed a 5.12d variation tips corner. The difficult 5.12+ route climbs 8 pitches: 5.10, 5.10, 5.12-, 5.11+, 5.12+, 5.12+, 5.12+, 5.11+. Having rebuffed attempts by Sonnie Trotter, Jean-Pierre Ouellet and Matt Maddaloni, the route is considered somewhat of a sandbag
From Gripped Mag.
In reply to TobyA: umm, I have to say that, thats not really accurate, obviously there are bolted lines in Finland (this is coming from a purely Finnish point of view), as there are in the UK..you should come over here and I'll take you to a few places where you'll be shitting in your pants and screaming for mama on relatively easy leads..the attitudes here are different (as we aren't English) not everyone wants to scare themselves to death by leading the most dangerous thing, plus the rocks very different to the UK, and is almost always run out and dangerous, it's pretty low (15-50meters) and the risk of hitting the ground is pretty high and granite(not smooth granite though)...but talk to most serious climbers and they will tell you what most serious good climbers will tell you around the world: that if you can protect it naturally then it should be kept natural and not be bolted...
I can say the same thing about the UK as well, there are tons of people there who have never climbed trad, big f*cking whoop.. am I making a big fuss about that, more importantly are you? well no, see I don't care, it's your life and people can do whatever you want, I though that was one of the good things about climbing (maybe I was wrong)..if you want to bolt something, then bolt it, but at the same time people need to respect that I can chop that bolt off with the same right and obviously after that if freed, then you cant put the bolt back . As might have been said before who cares man, just get strong and climb harder.
timo
I can say the same thing about the UK as well, there are tons of people there who have never climbed trad, big f*cking whoop.. am I making a big fuss about that, more importantly are you? well no, see I don't care, it's your life and people can do whatever you want, I though that was one of the good things about climbing (maybe I was wrong)..if you want to bolt something, then bolt it, but at the same time people need to respect that I can chop that bolt off with the same right and obviously after that if freed, then you cant put the bolt back . As might have been said before who cares man, just get strong and climb harder.
timo
In reply to timo.t: Did you know that Toby A lives in Helsinki ?
In reply to timo.t: Moi Timo. I've been climbing in Finland since 1996, and have climbed at most of the developed cliffs in the south of the country and have been closely involved in developing a number of venues myself, cleaning and climbing new routes. What I was referring to in my post above was the very specific case of what the Släbi club has done at Haukkakallio between Kotka and Loviisa (see: http://slabi.net/kalliot.html ). This is a very specific case where they negotiated access with the landowners (Metsähallitus) and therefore have taken the attitude that they are therefore in charge of what is and isn't done at the crag. I will happily respect other people's projects where they have cleaned routes and are working them, but fundamentally disagree with the idea that someone controls a crag. Its is legally a bit foggy but climbing seems to be de facto allowed in Finland, because of everyman's right. This is basically SKIL's position as well.
There was huge discussion on the Haukkakallio issue last year, see: http://www.slouppi.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1770 and http://www.slouppi.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1787
I like sport climbing, and there is lots good sport climbing in Finland, but I don't know of anywhere else in Finland where easily protectable crack lines have been bolted like at Haukkakallio. Släbi have also retrobolted a route that had previously been climbed as trad route by myself and a friend, renamed it and claimed the first ascent on the basis that we had not been given "permission" to climb that line. Again there have been virtually no cases of retrobolting in Finland without permission of the first ascentionist (a couple of exceptions are Heroes in Heaven at Kvarnby and one route at Jaanankallio, Käkimassaa, that were retroed by SKIL - although both were in various ways special cases).
Lots of people care. Most people don't want to see cliffs with chopped bolts and new bolts proliferating. That is just like leaving your litter in the forest, or chipping holds. Sports climbs should be bolted well and left alone, tradlines shouldn't be bolted. That's been the Finnish ethic for the best part of twenty years now and it has worked well with climbers showing respect for each other and the environment we use.
There was huge discussion on the Haukkakallio issue last year, see: http://www.slouppi.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1770 and http://www.slouppi.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1787
I like sport climbing, and there is lots good sport climbing in Finland, but I don't know of anywhere else in Finland where easily protectable crack lines have been bolted like at Haukkakallio. Släbi have also retrobolted a route that had previously been climbed as trad route by myself and a friend, renamed it and claimed the first ascent on the basis that we had not been given "permission" to climb that line. Again there have been virtually no cases of retrobolting in Finland without permission of the first ascentionist (a couple of exceptions are Heroes in Heaven at Kvarnby and one route at Jaanankallio, Käkimassaa, that were retroed by SKIL - although both were in various ways special cases).
> As might have been said before who cares man
Lots of people care. Most people don't want to see cliffs with chopped bolts and new bolts proliferating. That is just like leaving your litter in the forest, or chipping holds. Sports climbs should be bolted well and left alone, tradlines shouldn't be bolted. That's been the Finnish ethic for the best part of twenty years now and it has worked well with climbers showing respect for each other and the environment we use.
In reply to Doug: thats not my fault now is it . (I assumed by the name that he's at least English) hehe...seriously didn't know, but I still stand behind what I said, but Helsinki's the capital and ethics there are allways a bit fuzzy just take a look at London, my friend went trad climbing with some bloke who climbed over sevens inside but was scared to lead a VS anything outside..there seems to be an attitude that the UK is the only place in the world that knows how to trad climb and it obviously isn't true
theres tons of hard trad in Finland, I just started redpointing (and proud of it) one of the coolest cracks I've seen called Ee-mäntä, which is French 6c+ (Finnish 7-, pretty much at my onsight level, but I want to do a different start), and I've never seen anything like it in the UK, bit like the Rasp but longer and harder and to be honest, cooler (I have climbed the Rasp by the way, before anyone starts dissing me ), it's burly and still has a unclimbed roof start which I was thinking of leading next summer (no time this year).. and the same ofr central Europe, my friend just came back from Chamonix where they only climbed trad for five weeks..or go to Norway where theres even more still unclimbed walls the size of El Cap.
dude theres tons of good hard shit around, you just have to look for it..
timo
ps. I live in Tampere (Finland as well)
theres tons of hard trad in Finland, I just started redpointing (and proud of it) one of the coolest cracks I've seen called Ee-mäntä, which is French 6c+ (Finnish 7-, pretty much at my onsight level, but I want to do a different start), and I've never seen anything like it in the UK, bit like the Rasp but longer and harder and to be honest, cooler (I have climbed the Rasp by the way, before anyone starts dissing me ), it's burly and still has a unclimbed roof start which I was thinking of leading next summer (no time this year).. and the same ofr central Europe, my friend just came back from Chamonix where they only climbed trad for five weeks..or go to Norway where theres even more still unclimbed walls the size of El Cap.
dude theres tons of good hard shit around, you just have to look for it..
timo
ps. I live in Tampere (Finland as well)
In reply to TobyA: Should add for non-Finns, SKIL (Suomen Kiipeilyliitto) is the "Finnish Climber's Union" - basically the equivalent of the BMC.
In reply to TobyA: Moro, didn't know about that, I'm still pretty new to the Finnish climbing scene as I haven't really lived in Finland for most of my life (last time was in 2004)..but I do agree, there are no rights for crags, and as the Finnish law states about jokamiehen oikeus (every mans right), we do legally have the right, of course there are some issues about cliffs I have heard.
I do agree, but the premise by which they started bolting routes is clearly wrong, I don't agree with bolting routes that can be protected by gear, no matter how hard, you just have to become better to climb it. And what I said about caring, I didn't mean that things should be bolted and chopped etc, ad infinitum, but that the whole situation is bullocksd and I really can't be bothered with stupid people any more. I remember someone saying that they wanted to bolt Sikanaisia 6 French 6b (it's only got like two placements about 10 meters of the ground or something, so about E3 5b/cish I'd think, hvent climbed it though so can't really say), here in Tampere just a while a go, to make it safer (I think it was the girl who first led it as well), but most people seemed to think that as it can be protected (quite badly) it would take away from the route..but this will always be an issue, specially with an overprotected society like the one we have here in Finland.
timo
I do agree, but the premise by which they started bolting routes is clearly wrong, I don't agree with bolting routes that can be protected by gear, no matter how hard, you just have to become better to climb it. And what I said about caring, I didn't mean that things should be bolted and chopped etc, ad infinitum, but that the whole situation is bullocksd and I really can't be bothered with stupid people any more. I remember someone saying that they wanted to bolt Sikanaisia 6 French 6b (it's only got like two placements about 10 meters of the ground or something, so about E3 5b/cish I'd think, hvent climbed it though so can't really say), here in Tampere just a while a go, to make it safer (I think it was the girl who first led it as well), but most people seemed to think that as it can be protected (quite badly) it would take away from the route..but this will always be an issue, specially with an overprotected society like the one we have here in Finland.
timo
In reply to TobyA: nope, but you didn't say there was either ;D just wanted to point it out.
In reply to timo.t: did I say the Rasp, well I meant the File (jammin), I haven't been up the Rasp (I have lead Surform though).
timo
timo
In reply to timo.t: Tosi hyvä! We agree. It's quite interesting that due to the nature of Finnish granite there aren't so many not well protected climbs. There are definitely some, both easy like Mänty at Olhava and very hard - some of Perttu's routes in Kustavi are both sick hard and sick dangerous! - but lets say something like 80%+ of routes tend to be either cracks (from easy to very hard) with as much gear as you can hang around to put in, or have no gear placements at all - and therefore make good sports routes. I think it's a shame if bold trad routes get bolted as there aren't that many options for playing head games of that type - although Kustavi has them!
If you are enjoying Ee-mäntä, get down to Luhti and do Keema. It's brilliant - if you are crack climbing at around E1/E2 you should be fine and its very well protected if you take some big cams for the top. It's rather like Ee mäntä just vertical rather than horribly over hanging, so it might be a good practice route! http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.php?id=30726
If you are enjoying Ee-mäntä, get down to Luhti and do Keema. It's brilliant - if you are crack climbing at around E1/E2 you should be fine and its very well protected if you take some big cams for the top. It's rather like Ee mäntä just vertical rather than horribly over hanging, so it might be a good practice route! http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.php?id=30726
In reply to timo.t:
I've done the File it was fine, but I would never get anywhere near doing Ee mäntä! But it is steep like the Rasp, only with harder climbing: http://www.slouppi.net/contents/pics/Foto/havukallio_foto2.jpg
> (In reply to timo.t) did I say the Rasp, well I meant the File (jammin),
I've done the File it was fine, but I would never get anywhere near doing Ee mäntä! But it is steep like the Rasp, only with harder climbing: http://www.slouppi.net/contents/pics/Foto/havukallio_foto2.jpg
In reply to TobyA:
>Again there have been virtually no cases of retrobolting in Finland without permission of the first ascentionist (a couple of exceptions are Heroes in Heaven at Kvarnby and one route at Jaanankallio, Käkimassaa, that were retroed by SKIL - although both were in various ways special cases).
Unless I'm greatly mistaken, both were retrobolted with the premission of the FA. In fact, I'm pretty sure Käkimassa was actually bolted by the FA (since no one was climbing it, when it was still a headpoint/high-E -route).
But you're complitely correct about what Släbi RY has been doing. I'm guessing they are too used to central yurpian "klättergardens" where you have to pay to climb rock.
And like you said, projects can be reserved (for a year or mebbe even two), but not whole crags. Be it, that Släbi did make the parkinglots and all.
>Again there have been virtually no cases of retrobolting in Finland without permission of the first ascentionist (a couple of exceptions are Heroes in Heaven at Kvarnby and one route at Jaanankallio, Käkimassaa, that were retroed by SKIL - although both were in various ways special cases).
Unless I'm greatly mistaken, both were retrobolted with the premission of the FA. In fact, I'm pretty sure Käkimassa was actually bolted by the FA (since no one was climbing it, when it was still a headpoint/high-E -route).
But you're complitely correct about what Släbi RY has been doing. I'm guessing they are too used to central yurpian "klättergardens" where you have to pay to climb rock.
And like you said, projects can be reserved (for a year or mebbe even two), but not whole crags. Be it, that Släbi did make the parkinglots and all.
In reply to TobyA: man it's not that hard, if you're good at jamming that is, my friends told to me to lay back up it, but that makes no sense since you can easily jam all the way to the crux (where the guy is in the photo, and after that you get the coolest no hands rest, which is a knee bar into the upper dihedral part, top of the picture, and after that it's a bit easier face(like three moves) to a really good ledge where you can rest the whole day if needs be before the last weird bit stemming. I did only top rope it once though, and I did fall of the crux once (it just started raining as I was preparing to climb it), but I'm confident I can lead it next try..technically it's not too hard, just jammy but it really pumps you out..but I do want to do the starting roof crack, that looks so cool man, burly as f*ck one might say.
In reply to HeMa:
I climb from time to with Nikko who first led Käksimassa, he's a mate. He definitely didn't give his permission for it to be retroed, and is a bit miffed about it. He was living in the US at time, but says that they didn't put any effort into finding him as he had an email address and lots of his Finnish climbing mates knew how to contact him. I don't the the rebolting at Jaanankallio was very well done in other ways as well - i.e. the lower off of Rev it Up being put to low.
On Heroes in Heaven, the FA had moved to Germany and as I understand it people did try to track him down but couldn't find him. Heroes was a bit different because it had the original homemade bolt. I had led it with just that one bolt and it was a bit of a frightener, but slightly artificial (you can get a cam in a tiny bit higher - but then it would be really frightening!). Maybe having one bold, almost unprotected slab would have been cool, but I can see the logic in saying if it has one bolt, it might as well have three good ones. Nevertheless, it ain't the route it used to be.
> Unless I'm greatly mistaken, both were retrobolted with the premission of the FA. In fact, I'm pretty sure Käkimassa was actually bolted by the FA (since no one was climbing it, when it was still a headpoint/high-E -route).
I climb from time to with Nikko who first led Käksimassa, he's a mate. He definitely didn't give his permission for it to be retroed, and is a bit miffed about it. He was living in the US at time, but says that they didn't put any effort into finding him as he had an email address and lots of his Finnish climbing mates knew how to contact him. I don't the the rebolting at Jaanankallio was very well done in other ways as well - i.e. the lower off of Rev it Up being put to low.
On Heroes in Heaven, the FA had moved to Germany and as I understand it people did try to track him down but couldn't find him. Heroes was a bit different because it had the original homemade bolt. I had led it with just that one bolt and it was a bit of a frightener, but slightly artificial (you can get a cam in a tiny bit higher - but then it would be really frightening!). Maybe having one bold, almost unprotected slab would have been cool, but I can see the logic in saying if it has one bolt, it might as well have three good ones. Nevertheless, it ain't the route it used to be.
In reply to timo.t: If I get to Havukallio this year (too many new routes to clean and climb elsewhere! I should give it a go on a top rope then! But I am notoriously rubbish at anything that overhangs.
In reply to TobyA: you should, it's a brilliant line! haha, know that feeling I've never climbed in Finland before and am suffering from acute project overload! And I just realized I've only got like three weeks to send all my projects before I need to go back to London..shit. well theres always next year.
In reply to TobyA:
Gotcha, guess I've been misinformed then.
Well of that we do agree, some of the loweroffs are there purely for toproping, changing the character of the climb when on lead.
Well, I'm sort of in the limbo with Heroes in Heaven. While the original bolt was sufficent (ie. protected the crux... sadly the lower one was still there), it was crazy scary (I didn't lead it before the retrobolting). But my main concern was the homemade bolt (and the homemade piton on Rigolehto). Still I do agree, that if you're going to bolt a route it should be reasonably safe to climb. Especially on the lower grades, which are quite limited in Finland (ie. sub 6- routes)... And perfect for punters like me.
> He definitely didn't give his permission for it to be retroed, and is a bit miffed about it.
Gotcha, guess I've been misinformed then.
> I don't the the rebolting at Jaanankallio was very well done in other ways as well - i.e. the lower off of Rev it Up being put to low.
Well of that we do agree, some of the loweroffs are there purely for toproping, changing the character of the climb when on lead.
> On Heroes in Heaven, the FA had moved to Germany and as I understand it people did try to track him down but couldn't find him.
Well, I'm sort of in the limbo with Heroes in Heaven. While the original bolt was sufficent (ie. protected the crux... sadly the lower one was still there), it was crazy scary (I didn't lead it before the retrobolting). But my main concern was the homemade bolt (and the homemade piton on Rigolehto). Still I do agree, that if you're going to bolt a route it should be reasonably safe to climb. Especially on the lower grades, which are quite limited in Finland (ie. sub 6- routes)... And perfect for punters like me.
In reply to tobyfk:
Isn't the correlation between Catholicism and sport-climbing. Something to do with having your sins forgiven so easily?
> Wouldn't argue with much of that. But I am not sure how it relates to your original point higher in the thread. Self-evidently there's little correlation between a country's weather and people's propensity to trad-climb. Or, if there is a correlation (*) it's negative: there's a greater enthusiasm for sport climbing in places with nice weather. Perhaps sunshine makes people think "b*llocks to ethics"? (OK, flogged this theme far enough ...)
Isn't the correlation between Catholicism and sport-climbing. Something to do with having your sins forgiven so easily?
In reply to duncan:
Hmmm. Let's free-associate for a moment: ... Alan Watts/ Smith Rock/ Catholicism? ... Rotpunkt/ Catholicism? ... Pete Oxley / Catholicism? ... Railay Beach/ Yangshuo/ Catholicism? ... Kalymnos/ Catholicism? ... not wholly buying your theory.
> Isn't the correlation between Catholicism and sport-climbing.
Hmmm. Let's free-associate for a moment: ... Alan Watts/ Smith Rock/ Catholicism? ... Rotpunkt/ Catholicism? ... Pete Oxley / Catholicism? ... Railay Beach/ Yangshuo/ Catholicism? ... Kalymnos/ Catholicism? ... not wholly buying your theory.
In reply to duncan:
Ireland. I rest my case.
> Isn't the correlation between Catholicism and sport-climbing.
Ireland. I rest my case.
In reply to tobyfk:
Clearly we need to know whether the Rotpunkt ethic developed in the Catholic South of Germany or the Lutheran north. If it was a northern German thing, then conceivable we might be able to use Weber and "the Protestant Ethic and the spirit of capitalism", in as much northern protestants have to WORK for their salvation (and sends), whilst the workshy southern catholics just need to repent for their sins (serial chipping and glueing of routes for instance)...
> Rotpunkt/ Catholicism?
Clearly we need to know whether the Rotpunkt ethic developed in the Catholic South of Germany or the Lutheran north. If it was a northern German thing, then conceivable we might be able to use Weber and "the Protestant Ethic and the spirit of capitalism", in as much northern protestants have to WORK for their salvation (and sends), whilst the workshy southern catholics just need to repent for their sins (serial chipping and glueing of routes for instance)...
In reply to tobyfk:
> (In reply to duncan)
> Rotpunkt/ Catholicism?
Frankenjura, southern Germany - very Catholic
> ... Pete Oxley / Catholicism?
Hard-core/Henry Rollins fan - typical lapsed Catholic
> Kalymnos/ Catholicism?
Great Schism? A minor detail...
> Ireland
Irrelevant in climbing terms!
In reply to duncan:
... shurely "Ireland: last refuge of the trad purist"?
The Mountaineering Council of Ireland has debated this issue widely in the past and concludes that there is no place for the use of bolts ..... thus it asks any agency, group or service provider who may have place fixed equipment at Irish cliffs or crags to remove same. This request is made in what is felt by the MCI to be in the best interest of all those who use Irish outdoor sites for recreation and sport.
http://www.mountaineering.ie/mci/Bolting%20Policy.doc
> (In reply to tobyfk)
> [Ireland]
> Irrelevant in climbing terms!
> Irrelevant in climbing terms!
... shurely "Ireland: last refuge of the trad purist"?
The Mountaineering Council of Ireland has debated this issue widely in the past and concludes that there is no place for the use of bolts ..... thus it asks any agency, group or service provider who may have place fixed equipment at Irish cliffs or crags to remove same. This request is made in what is felt by the MCI to be in the best interest of all those who use Irish outdoor sites for recreation and sport.
http://www.mountaineering.ie/mci/Bolting%20Policy.doc
In reply to tobyfk:
Nowt to do with ethics. I was saying it's harder to find reliable conditions for trad, so to get the number of days in required for someone to climb 5.14 on gear is really hard. I don't think he said he'd been on it for years before. So on the one hand it was a super impressive fast send and he's a beast or he was lucky it suited him, or on the other he was lucky to get plenty of time in on the route, or on another of my limitless supply of academic spare hands, it isn't 5.14c because it didn't take him long enough.
Anyway, freakin hell. It seems people (well Chris Fryer and you) always expect me to have a point. Just because I make or raise a point, doesn't mean I have a point or an opinion. I was just stressing that the flip side of the `unlikely to be true' coin is the `super impressive' one. My only point, if any, is that I don't know. I'm only saying what any sport climber is going to say, instinctively in the absence of fact.
He's added a new post now anyway in which he claims 5.14b (8c tous les monde). Do they use french grades in french Canada? What he has to say about Cams breaking is piss funny!
And I may be suffering from a lack of Irony here, but you can't call the hardest route in the world The Path, it's just wrong! (unless you over grade it), so it can't be THRITW.
P.S. You missed Cecile Rottweiler (Belgian), Sabine Eggert (?) and correlation means you can more or less put a line through the data points, but obviously you can quantify this. Same as coincidence. More or less.
> Wouldn't argue with much of that. But I am not sure how it relates to your original point higher in the thread.
Nowt to do with ethics. I was saying it's harder to find reliable conditions for trad, so to get the number of days in required for someone to climb 5.14 on gear is really hard. I don't think he said he'd been on it for years before. So on the one hand it was a super impressive fast send and he's a beast or he was lucky it suited him, or on the other he was lucky to get plenty of time in on the route, or on another of my limitless supply of academic spare hands, it isn't 5.14c because it didn't take him long enough.
Anyway, freakin hell. It seems people (well Chris Fryer and you) always expect me to have a point. Just because I make or raise a point, doesn't mean I have a point or an opinion. I was just stressing that the flip side of the `unlikely to be true' coin is the `super impressive' one. My only point, if any, is that I don't know. I'm only saying what any sport climber is going to say, instinctively in the absence of fact.
He's added a new post now anyway in which he claims 5.14b (8c tous les monde). Do they use french grades in french Canada? What he has to say about Cams breaking is piss funny!
And I may be suffering from a lack of Irony here, but you can't call the hardest route in the world The Path, it's just wrong! (unless you over grade it), so it can't be THRITW.
P.S. You missed Cecile Rottweiler (Belgian), Sabine Eggert (?) and correlation means you can more or less put a line through the data points, but obviously you can quantify this. Same as coincidence. More or less.
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