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On Wednesday night the BMC held a Lakes Area Meeting at the Golden Rule, Ambleside.
It was well attended by over 50 Lakes climbers and expertly facilitated by BMC Volunteers' Officer, Martin Kocsis.
Many issues were discussed including Bolts.
This report includes a 10 minute video clip of the discussion about retro-bolts.
Read more at http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/
It was well attended by over 50 Lakes climbers and expertly facilitated by BMC Volunteers' Officer, Martin Kocsis.
Many issues were discussed including Bolts.
This report includes a 10 minute video clip of the discussion about retro-bolts.
Read more at http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
I'm getting blocked from the UKC server when I try to access the vid - seems to want a password different to my UKC registered one?
I'm getting blocked from the UKC server when I try to access the vid - seems to want a password different to my UKC registered one?
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
Thank you kind sir.
Someone in that clip says 'elitist' - must be the word of the week!
And nice to see someone telling Dave Turnbull to 'get his shit together'!
Thank you kind sir.
Someone in that clip says 'elitist' - must be the word of the week!
And nice to see someone telling Dave Turnbull to 'get his shit together'!
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
Great video.
A room full of passionate climbers and one woman.
She thought the guy was sad becuase a route he was passionate about had been ruined by retro bolts.
WTF?
The Ent ™
Great video.
A room full of passionate climbers and one woman.
She thought the guy was sad becuase a route he was passionate about had been ruined by retro bolts.
WTF?
The Ent ™
In reply to Enty:
No she thought he was sad because he thought his achievment would be diminished if it was retro bolted. Which personally, I think is a bit sad.
One good point which didn't really get answered, was that should the F.A. have the right to retro bolt the route. I think they should personally.
No she thought he was sad because he thought his achievment would be diminished if it was retro bolted. Which personally, I think is a bit sad.
One good point which didn't really get answered, was that should the F.A. have the right to retro bolt the route. I think they should personally.
In reply to DaveR:
It actually did get answered, Keith Phizacklea, who spoke at the end has retro-bolted his own routes at Hodge Close.
There also routes on Chapel Head (and other Lakes limestone crags) that have been retro-bolted.
> (In reply to Enty)
> One good point which didn't really get answered, was that should the F.A. have the right to retro bolt the route. I think they should personally.
It actually did get answered, Keith Phizacklea, who spoke at the end has retro-bolted his own routes at Hodge Close.
There also routes on Chapel Head (and other Lakes limestone crags) that have been retro-bolted.
In reply to DaveR:
His achievement: his feelings.
And the answer to your question is not that simple. The first ascentionist has the 'right' to convert a trad route existing in definitive guides to a sport route? Has the 'right' to bolt in areas that are bolt-free? Has the 'right' to add bolts as their own powers wane?
His achievement: his feelings.
And the answer to your question is not that simple. The first ascentionist has the 'right' to convert a trad route existing in definitive guides to a sport route? Has the 'right' to bolt in areas that are bolt-free? Has the 'right' to add bolts as their own powers wane?
In reply to Enty:
There were lots of women climbers at the meeting. In fact the only two people to volunteer to help were Carissa Lough and Ellie Fowler.
Seen here with BMC Volunteers' Officer, Martin Kocsis.
http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.php?id=74495
Marian Parsons also provided the minutes for the news report.
There were lots of women climbers at the meeting. In fact the only two people to volunteer to help were Carissa Lough and Ellie Fowler.
Seen here with BMC Volunteers' Officer, Martin Kocsis.
http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.php?id=74495
Marian Parsons also provided the minutes for the news report.
In reply to Andy Say:
I should have added, retro bolted the route as long as it's still in line with the local bolt policy. e.g. moving the postion of a bolt if they think they made a mistake.
I should have added, retro bolted the route as long as it's still in line with the local bolt policy. e.g. moving the postion of a bolt if they think they made a mistake.
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
But is that 'retro-bolted' as in placing bolts on a route where none existed; 're-bolted' as in addressing the run-out nature of the route by putting in more gear or 'bolt-replacement' on a like-for-like basis?
But is that 'retro-bolted' as in placing bolts on a route where none existed; 're-bolted' as in addressing the run-out nature of the route by putting in more gear or 'bolt-replacement' on a like-for-like basis?
In reply to DaveR:
You see I wouldn't call that retro-bolting......
> (In reply to Andy Say)
'e.g. moving the postion of a bolt if they think they made a mistake.'You see I wouldn't call that retro-bolting......
In reply to Enty:
actually...a room full of passionate climbers.
there were, if my list of attendees from the evening is accurate, 16 ladies present, which is about a quarter of the room...marvellous!
cheerio!
> (In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com)
>
> Great video.
>
> A room full of passionate climbers and one woman.
>
> Great video.
>
> A room full of passionate climbers and one woman.
actually...a room full of passionate climbers.
there were, if my list of attendees from the evening is accurate, 16 ladies present, which is about a quarter of the room...marvellous!
cheerio!
In reply to martin k:
I liked the bit where you were obviously trying to get the window open so you could escape if it all kicked off.
I liked the bit where you were obviously trying to get the window open so you could escape if it all kicked off.
> (In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com)
> Thank you kind sir.
>
> Someone in that clip says 'elitist' - must be the word of the week!
> Thank you kind sir.
>
> Someone in that clip says 'elitist' - must be the word of the week!
Should that not read "word of the weak"?
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
Ok Ok Ok,
This is not an anti - woman rant. Just that the point she made about the other guy being sad was er.....sad.
To me anyway.
The Ent ™
Ok Ok Ok,
This is not an anti - woman rant. Just that the point she made about the other guy being sad was er.....sad.
To me anyway.
The Ent ™
In reply to all: The next meeting is the AGM, and we're looking for a head honcho to run it, as John Burrows is stepping down. the job entails standing at the front, getting through the debates and discussions with the minimum of fuss and the maximum of efficiency, and getting results at the end of the evening. a "can do" attitude, sunny disposition and an optimistic outlook are all you require. you will have the full support of local activists and shop owners (!) as well as all of us here at BMC high command: this means knowledge, money, contacts, training and chips. even if you're not sure, but like the idea, get in touch and i'll come to the lakes, take you out for tea and cakes and we'll see what happens after that!
cheerio,
martin
(martin@thebmc.co.uk)
cheerio,
martin
(martin@thebmc.co.uk)
To: anyone at the BMC
I'm not a local climber but I did, for a year, live in the Lakes and it's my favourite place to climb. However, I only climb modest grades (low E's max) and I'm not really into Lakes bolted stuff (have to admit, can't really see the point, either bolt it properly or don't - I know, heresy).
Two questions:
1. Is it worth my attending as a non local (given that the general rule is these meetings are for locals to decide the climbing ethics in the area) ?
2. I am passionate about Lakes climbing but feel de-linked from both truly high end climbing and this stuff about bolting Hodge Close - who cares, it's a strange place and will fall down v soon anyway
In other words, is it worth a mid grade non-local punter attending?
I'm not a local climber but I did, for a year, live in the Lakes and it's my favourite place to climb. However, I only climb modest grades (low E's max) and I'm not really into Lakes bolted stuff (have to admit, can't really see the point, either bolt it properly or don't - I know, heresy).
Two questions:
1. Is it worth my attending as a non local (given that the general rule is these meetings are for locals to decide the climbing ethics in the area) ?
2. I am passionate about Lakes climbing but feel de-linked from both truly high end climbing and this stuff about bolting Hodge Close - who cares, it's a strange place and will fall down v soon anyway
In other words, is it worth a mid grade non-local punter attending?
In reply to JonC:
Seeeeschhhh....anyone can attend irrespective of creed, gender, ability, colour, sexual preference.....even lovers of the top rope, pie eaters and the rest.
It's got nothing to do with grade, or climbs with or without bolts.
Area Meetings need a wide cross-section of the climbing community to function properly.
> To: anyone at the BMC
> In other words, is it worth a mid grade non-local punter attending?
Seeeeschhhh....anyone can attend irrespective of creed, gender, ability, colour, sexual preference.....even lovers of the top rope, pie eaters and the rest.
It's got nothing to do with grade, or climbs with or without bolts.
Area Meetings need a wide cross-section of the climbing community to function properly.
In reply to DaveR:
Of course. I and quite a few of my friends have retro bolted our own routes.
Generally we have realised that times have changed and that the way we did things in the past were not necessary right for the current world.
Eg Building in un necessary run outs on a route when you had prior knowledge of the tricks needed to climb it
> (In reply to Enty)
>
>
> One good point which didn't really get answered, was that should the F.A. have the right to retro bolt the route. I think they should personally.
>
>
> One good point which didn't really get answered, was that should the F.A. have the right to retro bolt the route. I think they should personally.
Of course. I and quite a few of my friends have retro bolted our own routes.
Generally we have realised that times have changed and that the way we did things in the past were not necessary right for the current world.
Eg Building in un necessary run outs on a route when you had prior knowledge of the tricks needed to climb it
In reply to JonC:
I had to think for a moment just who you were talking about...
She doesn't climb much these days I gather and is a mum.
I had to think for a moment just who you were talking about...
She doesn't climb much these days I gather and is a mum.
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
Well that hairy chested lad has done well for himself .
Interesting video. Jake Hughes comes across about as well on the video as he did on here.
Him arguing with that girl was a bit embarassing to listen to. Don't either of them understand the difference between deliberately sparsely bolted "designer scare" bolt routes and full on sport climbs (which may or may not have been badly bolted)?? Anvil Arete is not Barbie Junior, for example.
Well that hairy chested lad has done well for himself .
Interesting video. Jake Hughes comes across about as well on the video as he did on here.
Him arguing with that girl was a bit embarassing to listen to. Don't either of them understand the difference between deliberately sparsely bolted "designer scare" bolt routes and full on sport climbs (which may or may not have been badly bolted)?? Anvil Arete is not Barbie Junior, for example.
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
As we’re on it, what was the outcome of the sergeant crag slabs L/O & (removed) in-situ gear debacle?
Was it raised?
Jim
As we’re on it, what was the outcome of the sergeant crag slabs L/O & (removed) in-situ gear debacle?
Was it raised?
Jim
I love this....the guy who can't stop saying "don't replace a peg with a bolt". Just wondering if the people who organise such meetings realise how unprofessional they are. I think meetings should only invite a select few, maybe those who are leading British climbing becasue such climbers can form and state their own opinion and not just what they think is "right" to say.
In reply to Enty:
I've read through all of this and watched the video. I hope that the new 'head honcho' knows exactly how to run a debate. Jake Hughes' technique was poor regardless of his point and I wasn't surprised to hear the lady (sorry I didn't catch her name) suggest that he is sad for not being satisfied with his climb regardless of what happens to the route afterwards. I thought she demonstrated quite a bit of self control.
My point is simply about debate conduct. Jake had already interrupted her, and others, many many times, making it impossible for others to express their equally valid opinions and his language was deliberately aggressive. With a strong chair all valid arguments can be presented but only if those who wish to talk have the opportunity to finish what they are trying to say. Ok, so there was beer etc etc. All the more reason for the chair to set some simple ground rules and stick to them.
I may only be a couple of years old in terms of climbing, but when it comes to dealing with other people I'm an adult. This isn't such a welcoming image for the BMC on the web surely?
I've read through all of this and watched the video. I hope that the new 'head honcho' knows exactly how to run a debate. Jake Hughes' technique was poor regardless of his point and I wasn't surprised to hear the lady (sorry I didn't catch her name) suggest that he is sad for not being satisfied with his climb regardless of what happens to the route afterwards. I thought she demonstrated quite a bit of self control.
My point is simply about debate conduct. Jake had already interrupted her, and others, many many times, making it impossible for others to express their equally valid opinions and his language was deliberately aggressive. With a strong chair all valid arguments can be presented but only if those who wish to talk have the opportunity to finish what they are trying to say. Ok, so there was beer etc etc. All the more reason for the chair to set some simple ground rules and stick to them.
I may only be a couple of years old in terms of climbing, but when it comes to dealing with other people I'm an adult. This isn't such a welcoming image for the BMC on the web surely?
In reply to MusoLiz:
Sorry, just need to point out that I am not sure on reflection if the gentleman that I am talking about is actually Jake Hughes. It isn't clear from the footage. If it isn't, apologise to Jake.
L
Sorry, just need to point out that I am not sure on reflection if the gentleman that I am talking about is actually Jake Hughes. It isn't clear from the footage. If it isn't, apologise to Jake.
L
In reply to MusoLiz:
After watching the video, and reading the various points of view on the topic i feel i have to make some sort of replie. Woody was very passionate in the rule that night i wasn't there but i can tell from the video. I cant blame him, he wants the character of hodge close and other quarries to remain the way they were first climbed. His point of "if you want sports routes climb in france", to me is more than justified. The first route i did in Hodge was Behind the Lines, both Woody and Jake showed me the line and motivated me to lead it onsite, that evening is still a great climbing memory. It led me to try harder routes like Big Dipper and Mirrormere. Depite the latter having bolts that were not there on the first ascent, it still felt to me an "out there route". I fell twice from the arete takeing two swinging falls, bolts place a meter and half apart in sports fashion would have deminished the experence. I also climb The Slobs next door in Parrock a lovely climb, but a sports route, no where near the head game of being in the middle of the Mirrormere wall. Woody once told me of his ascent and the placing of the bolt on Timeless Flight, to me this is the charecter of Hodge. No matter what the grade it takes balls to lead these routes. Lets not deminish them with retrobolts, they have stood there for years, have ago on them as they have been done. If not maybe bold slate climbing is not for you. I hope the likes of Jake and Woody can make sense prevail.
Ed
After watching the video, and reading the various points of view on the topic i feel i have to make some sort of replie. Woody was very passionate in the rule that night i wasn't there but i can tell from the video. I cant blame him, he wants the character of hodge close and other quarries to remain the way they were first climbed. His point of "if you want sports routes climb in france", to me is more than justified. The first route i did in Hodge was Behind the Lines, both Woody and Jake showed me the line and motivated me to lead it onsite, that evening is still a great climbing memory. It led me to try harder routes like Big Dipper and Mirrormere. Depite the latter having bolts that were not there on the first ascent, it still felt to me an "out there route". I fell twice from the arete takeing two swinging falls, bolts place a meter and half apart in sports fashion would have deminished the experence. I also climb The Slobs next door in Parrock a lovely climb, but a sports route, no where near the head game of being in the middle of the Mirrormere wall. Woody once told me of his ascent and the placing of the bolt on Timeless Flight, to me this is the charecter of Hodge. No matter what the grade it takes balls to lead these routes. Lets not deminish them with retrobolts, they have stood there for years, have ago on them as they have been done. If not maybe bold slate climbing is not for you. I hope the likes of Jake and Woody can make sense prevail.
Ed
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
'sfunny video...though it wasn't clear to me who is who. "I didn't chop them 'cos the guy that put them in is my boss" (or similar) was great.
Agree about the points on how to have an effective debate, but to be fair to the chair, a room so crowded that people can't get round the door isn't the best venue.
The problem with the debate in general is that by the time it relates to a specific venue, it's too emotive. What's needed is a concensus on principles - and you don't get that by 50 folk turning out at a meeting. A BMC referendum?
Actually, before that, a concensus on what the questions would be good:
- who gets to set ethics locally? How much local / non-local / national influence?
- what level of input achieves concensus? A few top climbers living locally or >50% of all climbers using the area (from anywhere)? (My point here is that I don't think you can get good concensus - it's just not possible)
- how much say does the first ascenscionist get? why?
- bolts for pegs? bolts for bad bolts? bolts for belays? bolts to protect further worsening of rock? no bolts? bolts as the FA sees fit?
Without an agreed final arbiter, the debate is bottomless.
J
'sfunny video...though it wasn't clear to me who is who. "I didn't chop them 'cos the guy that put them in is my boss" (or similar) was great.
Agree about the points on how to have an effective debate, but to be fair to the chair, a room so crowded that people can't get round the door isn't the best venue.
The problem with the debate in general is that by the time it relates to a specific venue, it's too emotive. What's needed is a concensus on principles - and you don't get that by 50 folk turning out at a meeting. A BMC referendum?
Actually, before that, a concensus on what the questions would be good:
- who gets to set ethics locally? How much local / non-local / national influence?
- what level of input achieves concensus? A few top climbers living locally or >50% of all climbers using the area (from anywhere)? (My point here is that I don't think you can get good concensus - it's just not possible)
- how much say does the first ascenscionist get? why?
- bolts for pegs? bolts for bad bolts? bolts for belays? bolts to protect further worsening of rock? no bolts? bolts as the FA sees fit?
Without an agreed final arbiter, the debate is bottomless.
J
In reply to Moacs:
You are quite right about that but is not a total solution. The last BMC meet I attended ended up as a tedious circular argument because one person would not agree with an overwhelming majority. He basically would take direct unilateral action no matter what the BMC committee ( or the rest of the world for that matter) agreed. So unless we go down the American route of using restraining orders (not a good idea in my eyes)then all these issues will just go round in circles.
That said, as Dave Birkett inferred at the end of the meeting, there is no major problems in the quarries as a balance is being struck without BMC intervention. There is retro bolting going on but the people who are doing it are not stupid and are choosing suitable routes. Going Underground at Cathedral seems to be a good example of a poor route being changed into a classic ( hats off to the guys who led it on trad though) and no one is getting hot under the collar about that one ( I am aware of).
The bolts at Sergeant Slabs is a trickier one as the BMC must be involved as the request for them has indirectly come from the land owner. The circular argument mentioned above was this debate and as far as I am aware the end of the argument is still not in sight. I am personally against the bolts but would not chop them if the BMC placed them, what does the BMC do if they are? On a personal note I thought the in situ nuts were an unsightly but politically acceptable solution to the bolts( they were bomber). We all happily use tat around trees to ab off, why not wires?
> (In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com)
> Without an agreed final arbiter, the debate is bottomless.
>
>
You are quite right about that but is not a total solution. The last BMC meet I attended ended up as a tedious circular argument because one person would not agree with an overwhelming majority. He basically would take direct unilateral action no matter what the BMC committee ( or the rest of the world for that matter) agreed. So unless we go down the American route of using restraining orders (not a good idea in my eyes)then all these issues will just go round in circles.
That said, as Dave Birkett inferred at the end of the meeting, there is no major problems in the quarries as a balance is being struck without BMC intervention. There is retro bolting going on but the people who are doing it are not stupid and are choosing suitable routes. Going Underground at Cathedral seems to be a good example of a poor route being changed into a classic ( hats off to the guys who led it on trad though) and no one is getting hot under the collar about that one ( I am aware of).
The bolts at Sergeant Slabs is a trickier one as the BMC must be involved as the request for them has indirectly come from the land owner. The circular argument mentioned above was this debate and as far as I am aware the end of the argument is still not in sight. I am personally against the bolts but would not chop them if the BMC placed them, what does the BMC do if they are? On a personal note I thought the in situ nuts were an unsightly but politically acceptable solution to the bolts( they were bomber). We all happily use tat around trees to ab off, why not wires?
In reply to Shaw Brown:
...because wires fray and the cables break and are not always visible. See some of the old fixed wires at Arapiles. DAve C might tell you some of the stories about .
My rule is that fixed gear should be reliable.
...because wires fray and the cables break and are not always visible. See some of the old fixed wires at Arapiles. DAve C might tell you some of the stories about .
My rule is that fixed gear should be reliable.
In reply to Moacs:
I'm not sure that's true-having a debate at all makes people think, and while a consencus may not be reached, opinions can be formed/modified, and it means that people are thinking carefully about what they are doing.
Sam
>
> Without an agreed final arbiter, the debate is bottomless.
> Without an agreed final arbiter, the debate is bottomless.
I'm not sure that's true-having a debate at all makes people think, and while a consencus may not be reached, opinions can be formed/modified, and it means that people are thinking carefully about what they are doing.
Sam
In reply to nz Cragrat:
I do not disagree that wires are not as reliable as bolts, it's just that bolts in this case are disagreeable. There were 4 wires equalized if I remember correctly so I don't think wire reliability would be an issue if they were replaced every couple of years. Most people would use them rather than walking down ( which is what the land owner has problems with). We have a massive chain at the top of Gimmer that has been there for years, bolts would be less unsightly but the chain is politically acceptable.
Bolts on Sergeant crag slabs will not be reliable as they will get chopped( again), so wires may be the most reliable solution.
> (In reply to Shaw Brown)
>
> ...because wires fray and the cables break and are not always visible. See some of the old fixed wires at Arapiles. DAve C might tell you some of the stories about .
>
>
> ...because wires fray and the cables break and are not always visible. See some of the old fixed wires at Arapiles. DAve C might tell you some of the stories about .
>
I do not disagree that wires are not as reliable as bolts, it's just that bolts in this case are disagreeable. There were 4 wires equalized if I remember correctly so I don't think wire reliability would be an issue if they were replaced every couple of years. Most people would use them rather than walking down ( which is what the land owner has problems with). We have a massive chain at the top of Gimmer that has been there for years, bolts would be less unsightly but the chain is politically acceptable.
> My rule is that fixed gear should be reliable.
Bolts on Sergeant crag slabs will not be reliable as they will get chopped( again), so wires may be the most reliable solution.
In reply to Shaw Brown: I remember the lower off that got placed after the bolt was placed. It was an abortion. So much so, it seemed more an attempt to rile people enough to accept a bolt lower off than anything else. Several badly hammered in nuts tied off with some manky old rope.
Personally I've changed my mind over the years, from no bolts whatsoever anywhere, to acceptable for preserving sensitive bits of hillside and ensuring continued access. I'm also in favour of good quality semi permanent lower offs for convenience. If this makes mountain crags popular again, thats fine by me.
Personally I've changed my mind over the years, from no bolts whatsoever anywhere, to acceptable for preserving sensitive bits of hillside and ensuring continued access. I'm also in favour of good quality semi permanent lower offs for convenience. If this makes mountain crags popular again, thats fine by me.
In reply to Shaw Brown:
Tell me Shaw, what is the difference between chopping an abseil bolt and chopping the wheel nuts of the bolt choppers car? Aren't they both criminal damage? Perhaps someone should test it out if they see agreed bolts being chopped.
Tell me Shaw, what is the difference between chopping an abseil bolt and chopping the wheel nuts of the bolt choppers car? Aren't they both criminal damage? Perhaps someone should test it out if they see agreed bolts being chopped.
In reply to Shaw Brown:
Sorry I was thinking fixed gear on a climb not an anchor...
My views have changed over time too and I am all for lower offs and fixed (not tat) rap anchors pref a couple of Fixe Rings
Sorry I was thinking fixed gear on a climb not an anchor...
My views have changed over time too and I am all for lower offs and fixed (not tat) rap anchors pref a couple of Fixe Rings
In reply to sutty:
As I said before, bolts would be a less visual impact but they have been chopped once and will be chopped again, if placed. The wires were an eyesore but they are not the thin end of the wedge that some people perceive the placement of bolts in the lakes to be.
As I said before, bolts would be a less visual impact but they have been chopped once and will be chopped again, if placed. The wires were an eyesore but they are not the thin end of the wedge that some people perceive the placement of bolts in the lakes to be.
In reply to danm:
The wires could of been done better I am sure, but as I said before it is a political solution not purely a practical one. Bolts there will be chopped. The BMC's alternative was for the crag to be closed if the bolts were chopped, I personally would prefer to keep the crag open.
The wires could of been done better I am sure, but as I said before it is a political solution not purely a practical one. Bolts there will be chopped. The BMC's alternative was for the crag to be closed if the bolts were chopped, I personally would prefer to keep the crag open.
In reply to Shaw Brown:
Maybe you can explain why (not seen video only on slow connection) the bolts will be chopped?
Maybe you can explain why (not seen video only on slow connection) the bolts will be chopped?
So you get to the top of a crag and the ab station is a bunch of wires, been used by lots of other climbers and are now discoloured from two years of Lakes winter weather and a wet summer.
Sorry but I'm walking.
The Ent ™
Sorry but I'm walking.
The Ent ™
In reply to Shaw Brown:
How were the wires an eyesore? they were hammered in beheind a (flaired) flake - if we tie some camo static to them - that would be problem solved put a small sign about the insitu gear every body happy.
The last insitu was taken by mistake by some guys who thought someone had forgoten it rumor has they came to the bottom of the crag saying how they'd found all this gear that someone had left in because it must of been to hard to get out! - a small sign would fix this.
I'd be happy to supply free of charge (with blessing from everyone) all the (trad) equipment needed to protect that belay if it meant stopping climbers traversing to the tree and knocking rocks on 4 three star routes with climbers on.
Would that not mean job done so we all could stop talking about it (sergent crag) and go climbing?
Jim Keeley
How were the wires an eyesore? they were hammered in beheind a (flaired) flake - if we tie some camo static to them - that would be problem solved put a small sign about the insitu gear every body happy.
The last insitu was taken by mistake by some guys who thought someone had forgoten it rumor has they came to the bottom of the crag saying how they'd found all this gear that someone had left in because it must of been to hard to get out! - a small sign would fix this.
I'd be happy to supply free of charge (with blessing from everyone) all the (trad) equipment needed to protect that belay if it meant stopping climbers traversing to the tree and knocking rocks on 4 three star routes with climbers on.
Would that not mean job done so we all could stop talking about it (sergent crag) and go climbing?
Jim Keeley
In reply to Shaw Brown:
Yes that perception. How sad.
Still maybe they are right, bolt lower offs at Sargeant Slabs one day, a via ferrata at Gimmer crag the next!
> (In reply to sutty)
>
> As I said before, bolts would be a less visual impact but they have been chopped once and will be chopped again, if placed. The wires were an eyesore but they are not the thin end of the wedge that some people perceive the placement of bolts in the lakes to be.
>
> As I said before, bolts would be a less visual impact but they have been chopped once and will be chopped again, if placed. The wires were an eyesore but they are not the thin end of the wedge that some people perceive the placement of bolts in the lakes to be.
Yes that perception. How sad.
Still maybe they are right, bolt lower offs at Sargeant Slabs one day, a via ferrata at Gimmer crag the next!
In reply to Apex Distribution:
I know this has been rumbling on for years. What is wrong with the 1st team up fixing a belay, which everyone else uses (how busy does it get?) then at the end of the day, the last man up, strips the belay and walks round?
Chris
I know this has been rumbling on for years. What is wrong with the 1st team up fixing a belay, which everyone else uses (how busy does it get?) then at the end of the day, the last man up, strips the belay and walks round?
Chris
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
Well done. Well edited. How incredibly predictable.
Yesterday I visited Hodge Close on my own and had the most amazing day of climbing and spiritualism that I have ever had.
Whatever happens to this beautiful place in the future,for whatever reason, my natural experiance yesterday evening can never be taken away from me.
This is my last posting ever on this forum; a forum that has consistantly pissed me off and upset me for many, many reasons: the main reason being the bitter fool and who part owns it.
Solong.
Love light and peace.
Jake x
Well done. Well edited. How incredibly predictable.
Yesterday I visited Hodge Close on my own and had the most amazing day of climbing and spiritualism that I have ever had.
Whatever happens to this beautiful place in the future,for whatever reason, my natural experiance yesterday evening can never be taken away from me.
This is my last posting ever on this forum; a forum that has consistantly pissed me off and upset me for many, many reasons: the main reason being the bitter fool and who part owns it.
Solong.
Love light and peace.
Jake x
In reply to Chris Craggs:
Usually that would be my thoughts Chris, but the placments are not good (unless hammerd in) they are pretty flaired.
Also you have about 6-7 Routes (four ***) so it gets pretty busy up there with people sharing belays and all sorts.
The walk round takes a long time and also is very hard to find from the top.
Most people are traversing to a belay (Chain L/O) on a tree but they end up knocking rocks off..
Jim Keeley
Usually that would be my thoughts Chris, but the placments are not good (unless hammerd in) they are pretty flaired.
Also you have about 6-7 Routes (four ***) so it gets pretty busy up there with people sharing belays and all sorts.
The walk round takes a long time and also is very hard to find from the top.
Most people are traversing to a belay (Chain L/O) on a tree but they end up knocking rocks off..
Jim Keeley
In reply to Jake Hughes:
Edited? After the brief intro, it is a single take!
At a public meeting. No touching up going on there.
Alan
> Well done. Well edited. How incredibly predictable.
Edited? After the brief intro, it is a single take!
At a public meeting. No touching up going on there.
Alan
In reply to Alan James - UKC:
I'd like to add that the clip unploaded was only a small part of the meeting.
There was much discussion about overgrown crags and routes - a very detailed discussion. Also about the new and improved super-highway paths in the Lakes.
I shot these in several clips and we may be able to get those up in the future. If we can find time to edit!!!!
Anyhow.....next meeting 28th November.
Sounds like you had a fine time at Hodge Jake. It's what climbing is all about.
Mick
I'd like to add that the clip unploaded was only a small part of the meeting.
There was much discussion about overgrown crags and routes - a very detailed discussion. Also about the new and improved super-highway paths in the Lakes.
I shot these in several clips and we may be able to get those up in the future. If we can find time to edit!!!!
Anyhow.....next meeting 28th November.
Sounds like you had a fine time at Hodge Jake. It's what climbing is all about.
Mick
When they were "debating" who has the right to retro bolt a route i have to agree with the guy who shouted "jesus"
Although this could start another debate, which faith should decide on who retro bolts!
Dont forget - you dont have to use the bolts?
Although this could start another debate, which faith should decide on who retro bolts!
Dont forget - you dont have to use the bolts?
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
I trust everyone featured in the clip was cool about you broadcasting this video? Personally speaking, I have a slightly uneasy feeling this kind of thing. I might have missed it when I went out for a ciggy break, but did you ask those concerned if it was ok to go ahead and post the clip?
I trust everyone featured in the clip was cool about you broadcasting this video? Personally speaking, I have a slightly uneasy feeling this kind of thing. I might have missed it when I went out for a ciggy break, but did you ask those concerned if it was ok to go ahead and post the clip?
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