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"Does the fact that Cotswolds is now owned by a Belgian holding company or that Sports Soccer now own a high percentage of Field and Trek make any difference to the consumer? Or does the fact that I’ve just had my third kid, or that Shane from Planet Fear is now out of business, or that Outside have kept on all the staff from the Hathersage Nevisport shop, even though it hasn’t re-opened yet, mean more? Or will we all be buying our climbing gear from Tescos and Amazon soon anyway? The choice is yours…"
.....writes Rob Wilson of V12 Outdoor, in this opinion piece looking at the role of the ‘specialist’ climbing shop, offshore manufacturing, fat cat retailers, internet shopping and the price of outdoor gear.
Read the full article here: http://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/page.php?id=516
.....writes Rob Wilson of V12 Outdoor, in this opinion piece looking at the role of the ‘specialist’ climbing shop, offshore manufacturing, fat cat retailers, internet shopping and the price of outdoor gear.
Read the full article here: http://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/page.php?id=516
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
i personally found this interesting....i generally find the shops here do a good job...they just need to stock more Mammut gear.
i personally found this interesting....i generally find the shops here do a good job...they just need to stock more Mammut gear.
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: An interesting article - Rob speaks from a strong position IMO as V12 is the best climbing shop I've ever been to and I've never failed to get good service or find what I want when I've visited.
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: interesting article there..
i think the bit on where climbing gear comes from and the carbon foot print of it could become a more important part of our gear choice in the future? we seem to be taking that step in most other areas of life so why not on the gear purchases?
i think the bit on where climbing gear comes from and the carbon foot print of it could become a more important part of our gear choice in the future? we seem to be taking that step in most other areas of life so why not on the gear purchases?
In reply to gingerdave13:
Because despite all our protestations of being caring guardians of the environment and generally right thinking liberal poeple climbers, as a group, are some of the most self serving and tight people around.
> we seem to be taking that step in most other areas of life so why not on the gear purchases?
Because despite all our protestations of being caring guardians of the environment and generally right thinking liberal poeple climbers, as a group, are some of the most self serving and tight people around.
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
FFS!!! Is this really news???
Oh, hold on, that was just a knee jerk reaction to seeing a post by you!
PS. Have you recieved an email and attachment from me?
FFS!!! Is this really news???
Oh, hold on, that was just a knee jerk reaction to seeing a post by you!
PS. Have you recieved an email and attachment from me?
In reply to Rob Wilson:
Hmmm, I think you'll find DMM outsource around a third of the products on their price list, e.g. anything not machinable metalware. They used to support a local soft goods manufacturer (who incidentally has just bought the Troll brand) but now outsource these goods from the Czech Republic and increasingly China, thus increasing their Carbon Footprint and NOT supporting British manufacture. Lets give the full story before tarnishing the likes of Wild Co. and Zero G with a different brush.
I personally don't think there's anything wrong with what any of these companies do as long as they maintain the quality they are renowned for, and are honest about how their supply chain operates.
Hmmm, I think you'll find DMM outsource around a third of the products on their price list, e.g. anything not machinable metalware. They used to support a local soft goods manufacturer (who incidentally has just bought the Troll brand) but now outsource these goods from the Czech Republic and increasingly China, thus increasing their Carbon Footprint and NOT supporting British manufacture. Lets give the full story before tarnishing the likes of Wild Co. and Zero G with a different brush.
I personally don't think there's anything wrong with what any of these companies do as long as they maintain the quality they are renowned for, and are honest about how their supply chain operates.
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: Re: "...established reputable independents who sell stuff online for RRP-20% but don’t in their shop" I have experience of one shop which advertised a product online (with free P&P) cheaper than it was ticketed in their shop. When I queried this they said it was because stocking and shipping customer-chosen goods from a warehouse cost them less than putting products on display in a shop and giving customers advice on which one best suited their needs. Fair enough maybe - but they were then happy to match their online price, justifying that by the fact that with me standing there ready to take the thing away with me, they didn't have to cover the P&P costs. That did rather seem to undermine their previous argument a bit.
What I find hard to understand is a retailer who will sell something cheaper through their eBay shop than through their own online shop. I bought something just this morning that was 10% cheaper on eBay than it was in the retailer's own online store. I can't see the economic justification for that at all!
What I find hard to understand is a retailer who will sell something cheaper through their eBay shop than through their own online shop. I bought something just this morning that was 10% cheaper on eBay than it was in the retailer's own online store. I can't see the economic justification for that at all!
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: Interesting article.
I like the personal feel you get in the Likes of Needlessports, The Mountain Factor and Lakes Climber where the staff know my name and are happy just to chat and make me a cuppa. Something I have never exspirenced in the likes of Cotswolds, not that it's a climbing shop.
There arn't nay non inderpendant climbing shops anyway.
I like the personal feel you get in the Likes of Needlessports, The Mountain Factor and Lakes Climber where the staff know my name and are happy just to chat and make me a cuppa. Something I have never exspirenced in the likes of Cotswolds, not that it's a climbing shop.
There arn't nay non inderpendant climbing shops anyway.
In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide:
You can be unlucky and get the bored shitless saturday boy/girl who couldn't give a toss what you want or get the super helpfull fulltimer who will tell it like it is and help you as much as they can all in one shop.
If you like looking at, touching gear and getting advice then be prpared to pay a few quid more than all the faceless internet sites out there.
No one is going to make decent money from working in an outdoor shop. You will find that the majority are there working for the flexibility most employers have, the love of the outdoors, the cheap gear, and the fact that they are relatively happy working with like minded people.
Having worked in various outdoor shops, I was never personally happy with the range of products that any of them stocked, but grew to accept the fact that no one apart from the most dedicated independents will ever have the best range of gear/clothing.
This is why we should support the small independents and be prepared to pay little extra sometimes. As it leaves everyone feeling a little bit better at the end of the day.
You can be unlucky and get the bored shitless saturday boy/girl who couldn't give a toss what you want or get the super helpfull fulltimer who will tell it like it is and help you as much as they can all in one shop.
If you like looking at, touching gear and getting advice then be prpared to pay a few quid more than all the faceless internet sites out there.
No one is going to make decent money from working in an outdoor shop. You will find that the majority are there working for the flexibility most employers have, the love of the outdoors, the cheap gear, and the fact that they are relatively happy working with like minded people.
Having worked in various outdoor shops, I was never personally happy with the range of products that any of them stocked, but grew to accept the fact that no one apart from the most dedicated independents will ever have the best range of gear/clothing.
This is why we should support the small independents and be prepared to pay little extra sometimes. As it leaves everyone feeling a little bit better at the end of the day.
In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide:
My local Cotswolds is OK and the staff are friendly too. I didn't know it's been taken over by a Belgian holding company. How very worrying. I'll probably end up doing all my shopping when I'm away from home.
My local Cotswolds is OK and the staff are friendly too. I didn't know it's been taken over by a Belgian holding company. How very worrying. I'll probably end up doing all my shopping when I'm away from home.
In reply to Alison Stockwell:
That’s a bit of a shame for the ‘friendly’ staff – getting dumped just because of whom they work for. I supposed they’ll be rude and miserable from now on.
> (In reply to Tom Ripley)
> I'll probably end up doing all my shopping when I'm away from home.
> I'll probably end up doing all my shopping when I'm away from home.
That’s a bit of a shame for the ‘friendly’ staff – getting dumped just because of whom they work for. I supposed they’ll be rude and miserable from now on.
In reply to Andy Hyslop - UKClimbing.com:
In reply to Andy Hyslop - UKClimbing.com:
I didn't mean it like that!
Well, perhaps you have a point and I'm prejudiced. I associate "holding company" with uncertainty, asset strippers and sales to the highest bidder rather than precluding good price and high quality for the customer.
Must think positive; it might all work out OK. Perhaps Decathlon will buy it and keep the staff and stock a wider choice of stuff that fits me.
> (In reply to Alison Stockwell)
> That’s a bit of a shame for the ‘friendly’ staff – getting dumped just because of whom they work for. I supposed they’ll be rude and miserable from now on.
In reply to Andy Hyslop - UKClimbing.com:
I didn't mean it like that!
Well, perhaps you have a point and I'm prejudiced. I associate "holding company" with uncertainty, asset strippers and sales to the highest bidder rather than precluding good price and high quality for the customer.
Must think positive; it might all work out OK. Perhaps Decathlon will buy it and keep the staff and stock a wider choice of stuff that fits me.
In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide:
Spot on. With the exception of the telemark shops in Aviemore and Braemar, there's no shops I know of in Scotland that compare.
> (In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com) Interesting article.
>
> I like the personal feel you get in the Likes of Needlessports, The Mountain Factor and Lakes Climber where the staff know my name and are happy just to chat and make me a cuppa.
>
> I like the personal feel you get in the Likes of Needlessports, The Mountain Factor and Lakes Climber where the staff know my name and are happy just to chat and make me a cuppa.
Spot on. With the exception of the telemark shops in Aviemore and Braemar, there's no shops I know of in Scotland that compare.
In reply to Alison Stockwell:
Are you sure you're not getting "holding company" confused with "private equity company"? (Even then the association isn't entirely valid.) A holding company can be just a way to structure a larger commercial organisation, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holding_company
What's wrong with selling to the highest bidder, anyway? Anyone who sells stuff on eBay does that!
If you had an issue with the holding company being Belgian then that would be a different issue. But then of course Decathlon (who you seem to prefer) are French!
> I associate "holding company" with uncertainty, asset strippers and sales to the highest bidder
Are you sure you're not getting "holding company" confused with "private equity company"? (Even then the association isn't entirely valid.) A holding company can be just a way to structure a larger commercial organisation, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holding_company
What's wrong with selling to the highest bidder, anyway? Anyone who sells stuff on eBay does that!
If you had an issue with the holding company being Belgian then that would be a different issue. But then of course Decathlon (who you seem to prefer) are French!
In reply to Martin W:
Maybe you're right. Well, as long as they treat the staff well and the goods are reasonable that's something.
I don't fit standard UK sizes so most of my clothes have to be bought from kids shops or from France.
There are more gear shops in Keswick than almost anywhere, yet I spent a whole afternoon shopping for a pair of trousers recently and found only one shop that sold ones that fitted. Even then I don't like the style, or the material, and the thighs are too baggy and the crotch is too low. But at least the length is ok and they fit round the waist so they are actually wearable.
Maybe you're right. Well, as long as they treat the staff well and the goods are reasonable that's something.
I don't fit standard UK sizes so most of my clothes have to be bought from kids shops or from France.
There are more gear shops in Keswick than almost anywhere, yet I spent a whole afternoon shopping for a pair of trousers recently and found only one shop that sold ones that fitted. Even then I don't like the style, or the material, and the thighs are too baggy and the crotch is too low. But at least the length is ok and they fit round the waist so they are actually wearable.
In reply to Martin W:
To be fair, even if Decathlon did take over, they'd still probably just stock popular UK sizes. That was my impression when I tried a UK branch once before. So I'd probably still end up shopping in the French branches.
To be fair, even if Decathlon did take over, they'd still probably just stock popular UK sizes. That was my impression when I tried a UK branch once before. So I'd probably still end up shopping in the French branches.
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
Interesting article, thanks Mick. I tend to use the independents FAR more than chains, although for non-specialist stuff I must admit to the off quick trip to Cotswold. Anything even remotely technical though, I prefer to buy from an independent, and have a chat to people who have time to chat, and the experience to give good advice. After reading this, I'm even more likely to avoid the big chains!
Interesting article, thanks Mick. I tend to use the independents FAR more than chains, although for non-specialist stuff I must admit to the off quick trip to Cotswold. Anything even remotely technical though, I prefer to buy from an independent, and have a chat to people who have time to chat, and the experience to give good advice. After reading this, I'm even more likely to avoid the big chains!
In reply to Removed User:
I’ve bought a few things at Mountain Spirit in Aviemore. They were knowledgeable and helpful.
> With the exception of the telemark shops in Aviemore and Braemar, there's >no shops I know of in Scotland that compare.
I’ve bought a few things at Mountain Spirit in Aviemore. They were knowledgeable and helpful.
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: I have bought a lot of stuff from Cotswold, the Manchester and the new Preston branches. I have to say they have been very helpful. I also buy a fair amount of gear in Italy when we are on holiday.
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
Use them or lose them, as the saying goes. I've an independant bike shop really nearby, which I prefer to use over Decathlon which isn't far because I want him (the guy who runs it and is super helpful etc) to stay there!
I guess the same applies to climbing shops. I'm usually a low price hunter by necessity, but I think I'll make more effort to use independent shops because it would be sad for everything to become chain-dominated.
Good article, thanks!
Use them or lose them, as the saying goes. I've an independant bike shop really nearby, which I prefer to use over Decathlon which isn't far because I want him (the guy who runs it and is super helpful etc) to stay there!
I guess the same applies to climbing shops. I'm usually a low price hunter by necessity, but I think I'll make more effort to use independent shops because it would be sad for everything to become chain-dominated.
Good article, thanks!
In reply to Removed User:
Agreed, but if you are into your paddling, one shop for service and coffee and tea is Brookbanks in Perth.
Brilliant shop!
> (In reply to Removed UserTom Ripley)
> [...]
>
> Spot on. With the exception of the telemark shops in Aviemore and Braemar, there's no shops I know of in Scotland that compare.
> [...]
>
> Spot on. With the exception of the telemark shops in Aviemore and Braemar, there's no shops I know of in Scotland that compare.
Agreed, but if you are into your paddling, one shop for service and coffee and tea is Brookbanks in Perth.
Brilliant shop!
In reply to Caralynr:
Although I also prefer to shop at smaller shops for everything, I'm not happy with the deer fence approach to dividing so called independents and chains. There are some truly awful independents out there and likewise some really good chains. It doesn't have to be that clear cut.
In my view the big mistake so called 'independents' make is to think that they are immune form the same fiscal rules that larger business run under. Stuff like 'we don't need an stock control system because we know where everything is' and 'what do you mean year end accounts? its only 11 months since our last year end'. All mistakes I have made in the past.
In my view, if you want to be a successful shop or chain, concentrate more on profit and less on making brews.
Above all else, make sure the toilet is clean and everything else will fall into place.
> After reading this, I'm even more likely to avoid the big chains!
Although I also prefer to shop at smaller shops for everything, I'm not happy with the deer fence approach to dividing so called independents and chains. There are some truly awful independents out there and likewise some really good chains. It doesn't have to be that clear cut.
In my view the big mistake so called 'independents' make is to think that they are immune form the same fiscal rules that larger business run under. Stuff like 'we don't need an stock control system because we know where everything is' and 'what do you mean year end accounts? its only 11 months since our last year end'. All mistakes I have made in the past.
In my view, if you want to be a successful shop or chain, concentrate more on profit and less on making brews.
Above all else, make sure the toilet is clean and everything else will fall into place.
In reply to Andy Hyslop - UKClimbing.com:
Totally agree with you there.
As we all know a good reputation takes years to earn and seconds to destroy.
Some get it right some dont, time will tell who the true greats are!
Totally agree with you there.
As we all know a good reputation takes years to earn and seconds to destroy.
Some get it right some dont, time will tell who the true greats are!
In reply to Andy Hyslop - UKClimbing.com:
Having worked in an independent shop and chain I think for the customer so much comes down to the staff that is there on the day. It struck me that very few climbers are going to work in a shop as a career besides the owners, so it must be really hard finding the right people (knowledge and people skills!) as I imagine staff turnover is relatively high.
> Although I also prefer to shop at smaller shops for everything, I'm not happy with the deer fence approach to dividing so called independents and chains. There are some truly awful independents out there and likewise some really good chains. It doesn't have to be that clear cut.
Having worked in an independent shop and chain I think for the customer so much comes down to the staff that is there on the day. It struck me that very few climbers are going to work in a shop as a career besides the owners, so it must be really hard finding the right people (knowledge and people skills!) as I imagine staff turnover is relatively high.
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
nice one Rob, an interesting and well written article.
Same goes for bike shops - good friendly knowledgable service in wheelbase [independent in stavely] or unhelpful not bothered approach in Evans [chain in Kendal] - wheelbase anyday.
nice one Rob, an interesting and well written article.
Same goes for bike shops - good friendly knowledgable service in wheelbase [independent in stavely] or unhelpful not bothered approach in Evans [chain in Kendal] - wheelbase anyday.
In reply to TobyA:
It’s a big problem for independents and chains alike which is why a focus on profit is paramount.
> (In reply to Andy Hyslop - UKClimbing.com)
> hard finding the right people (knowledge and people skills!) >as I imagine staff turnover is relatively high.
> hard finding the right people (knowledge and people skills!) >as I imagine staff turnover is relatively high.
It’s a big problem for independents and chains alike which is why a focus on profit is paramount.
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
Good article. The internet has made customers more price driven. I think independents that hang onto this romantic notion of providing great advice/customer service need to be realistic. The info is out there on the net - reviews/forums etc. If it's cheaper elsewhere, they'll buy it elsewhere. The internet has been a great opportunity for shops like R&R, but it's also a massive threat for brands/shops that try and command a premium price because of 'added value' (in this case service/choice), rather than be a low cost supplier (I'm sure Rob can remember that one from our Business Studies lectures on Mappin St )
Good article. The internet has made customers more price driven. I think independents that hang onto this romantic notion of providing great advice/customer service need to be realistic. The info is out there on the net - reviews/forums etc. If it's cheaper elsewhere, they'll buy it elsewhere. The internet has been a great opportunity for shops like R&R, but it's also a massive threat for brands/shops that try and command a premium price because of 'added value' (in this case service/choice), rather than be a low cost supplier (I'm sure Rob can remember that one from our Business Studies lectures on Mappin St )
In reply to Tom, UKC News Editor: Hi Tom. I don't think all independents do hang on to any sort of romantic notions. I think there needs to be some realism from us as consumers that if we buy on price alone then we will end up with less specialsst shops than there are already. I'm quite happy to pay for choice and service and always use the climbing wall shops in London as they are way better than any of the London chains. THey are not cheaper but are better stocked and staffed. The fact that Rob starts his article listing about 12 specialst shops nationwide shows how small the specialist climbing market actually is. If we all bought as cheap as possible on the net where would we get our shoes and harnesses fitted or be able to 'feel' the difference between a DMM krab and a chinese one? I say support the good independents such as V12 and see them as an asset to the whole climbing scene.
In reply to Apollo:
If I remember correctly, 1/3 of listed items, but less than 2% of turnover
>They used to support a local soft goods manufacturer (who incidentally has just bought the Troll brand) but now outsource these goods from the Czech Republic and increasingly China, thus increasing their Carbon Footprint and NOT supporting British manufacture.
Fair Point rather simplistically put...as you know, I was involved at that point and consistency, technology and capacity were the main reasons for change.
I was talking about hardware and PPE at that point rather than chalk bags and mats. (rather conveniently, it seems now
Very true, but to put "made in the UK" on products that are not (But they are made into sets in the UK) is wrong as is putting 'UK' next to your brand name on products that aren't made in the uk.
Rob
PS Jackets in the office, no heating?
> (In reply to Rob Wilson)
>
> Hmmm, I think you'll find DMM outsource around a third of the products on their price list, e.g. anything not machinable metalware.
>
> Hmmm, I think you'll find DMM outsource around a third of the products on their price list, e.g. anything not machinable metalware.
If I remember correctly, 1/3 of listed items, but less than 2% of turnover
>They used to support a local soft goods manufacturer (who incidentally has just bought the Troll brand) but now outsource these goods from the Czech Republic and increasingly China, thus increasing their Carbon Footprint and NOT supporting British manufacture.
Fair Point rather simplistically put...as you know, I was involved at that point and consistency, technology and capacity were the main reasons for change.
I was talking about hardware and PPE at that point rather than chalk bags and mats. (rather conveniently, it seems now
> Lets give the full story before tarnishing the likes of Wild Co. and Zero G with a different brush.
>
I didn't make a tarnishing judgement on Wild Country or Zero Gs production policies, I merely stated the facts.>
> I personally don't think there's anything wrong with what any of these companies do as long as they maintain the quality they are renowned for, and are honest about how their supply chain operates.
Very true, but to put "made in the UK" on products that are not (But they are made into sets in the UK) is wrong as is putting 'UK' next to your brand name on products that aren't made in the uk.
Rob
PS Jackets in the office, no heating?
In reply to yesbutnobutyesbut:
I agree. I buy a lot of stuff from Needlesports for example, because they tend to stock specialist items. Though I buy it off their website because I find the shop claustrophobic and visiting Keswick thesedays, a rather depressing experience. And I buy stuff from CragX because it's right next door. All I'm saying is that, in reality, consumers are increasingly price-orientated and I believe that is one of the downsides of the internet and our 'Ebay Generation'. Everyone is after a deal.
I agree. I buy a lot of stuff from Needlesports for example, because they tend to stock specialist items. Though I buy it off their website because I find the shop claustrophobic and visiting Keswick thesedays, a rather depressing experience. And I buy stuff from CragX because it's right next door. All I'm saying is that, in reality, consumers are increasingly price-orientated and I believe that is one of the downsides of the internet and our 'Ebay Generation'. Everyone is after a deal.
In reply to Tom, UKC News Editor:
Actually I think that’s always been the case. The fact that you may have more product knowledge or a better shopping environment may give you the edge to a point but ultimately price is king on like for like products.
> (In reply to yesbutnobutyesbut)
>
> consumers are increasingly price-orientated and I believe that is one of the downsides of the internet and our 'Ebay Generation'. Everyone is after a deal.
>
> consumers are increasingly price-orientated and I believe that is one of the downsides of the internet and our 'Ebay Generation'. Everyone is after a deal.
Actually I think that’s always been the case. The fact that you may have more product knowledge or a better shopping environment may give you the edge to a point but ultimately price is king on like for like products.
In reply to Andy Hyslop - UKClimbing.com: The internet has just made it easier, that's all.
Afterall all you have to do is google the product and sort by price.
Anyway I am quite strict about rarely buying online unless it's too good a deal, I use Joe's and V12, but normally Joe's as a mate works there, but it's important we support local businesses, be it Formag or Joes. If we all go to B&Q every time we want anything, when we need a few screws Formag will be gone, as it almost is now (for sale), meaning we always face a drive.
Afterall all you have to do is google the product and sort by price.
Anyway I am quite strict about rarely buying online unless it's too good a deal, I use Joe's and V12, but normally Joe's as a mate works there, but it's important we support local businesses, be it Formag or Joes. If we all go to B&Q every time we want anything, when we need a few screws Formag will be gone, as it almost is now (for sale), meaning we always face a drive.
In reply to Robert Wilson:
This bares no relation to the effects of Carbon Footprints etc. Far more effort goes into the shipment of dozens of fully foamed crash pads than a box of biners regardless of the total value. But as you say it's all being a bit simplistic so I leave it there.
> PS Jackets in the office, no heating?
I was lugging boxes in the warehouse when the online help siren sounded.> If I remember correctly, 1/3 of listed items, but less than 2% of turnover
This bares no relation to the effects of Carbon Footprints etc. Far more effort goes into the shipment of dozens of fully foamed crash pads than a box of biners regardless of the total value. But as you say it's all being a bit simplistic so I leave it there.
In reply to Apollo:
Another fair point, but why leave it there, this is an important discussion after all and .
The simplistic comment was about the treatment of QUARA by DMM, not on your views, so dont take it personally (simpleton).
Rob
> This bares no relation to the effects of Carbon Footprints etc. Far more effort goes into the shipment of dozens of fully foamed crash pads than a box of biners regardless of the total value. But as you say it's all being a bit simplistic so I leave it there.
Another fair point, but why leave it there, this is an important discussion after all and .
The simplistic comment was about the treatment of QUARA by DMM, not on your views, so dont take it personally (simpleton).
Rob
In reply to Robert Wilson:
Rob, DMM dumped Quara because they couldn't attain the margins retailers required and still make money, it's very simple - it's just business. I don't think what DMM did is wrong they did what they did to keep their business moving forward. What I do object to is people siting them as whiter than white examples of British industry (not that they themselves have made any such claim, as far as I know).
Thanks for the insult too.
Rob, DMM dumped Quara because they couldn't attain the margins retailers required and still make money, it's very simple - it's just business. I don't think what DMM did is wrong they did what they did to keep their business moving forward. What I do object to is people siting them as whiter than white examples of British industry (not that they themselves have made any such claim, as far as I know).
Thanks for the insult too.
In reply to Robert Wilson:
The BMC discount issue does pose a bit of a dilemma
On the one hand I do want to support the local, independent, specialist shops for all the reasons you mention.
On the other hand I want to support shops that support the BMC, and by offering discounts the shops hand the BMC a major benefit for selling membership.
So I'll do what most climbers do, pretend to consult my conscience and then go for the cheapest option
The BMC discount issue does pose a bit of a dilemma
On the one hand I do want to support the local, independent, specialist shops for all the reasons you mention.
On the other hand I want to support shops that support the BMC, and by offering discounts the shops hand the BMC a major benefit for selling membership.
So I'll do what most climbers do, pretend to consult my conscience and then go for the cheapest option
In reply to Apollo: OOPS, forgot the
I had to take a 'simplistic' overview on these things due to word count, and it wasn't the right word to use for your comment in retrospect, sorry. It's good to hear other views too Greg and I'm sure WC and 0Gs decisions were not entirely price based too, but even if they were, you're right it's just business.
cheers
Rob
I had to take a 'simplistic' overview on these things due to word count, and it wasn't the right word to use for your comment in retrospect, sorry. It's good to hear other views too Greg and I'm sure WC and 0Gs decisions were not entirely price based too, but even if they were, you're right it's just business.
cheers
Rob
In reply to Robert Wilson: Are't WC owned by DMM anymore?
In reply to yesbutnobutyesbut:
I'm surprised nobody has drawn the distinction between independent uk retailers and independent uk manufacturers. Buying on price alone doesn't affect the shops; you can still have well informed, service oriented specialist shops selling cheap far eastern manufactured goods. Whatyou don't then have is product development or innovation, led by feedback to the manufacturers from the customers. You will be able to buy fit for purpose gear at the best price, but you will not be supporting an industry. So IMHO, the price paid for the "cheap" gear is the stagnation of equipment development.
Anyway, the carbon footprint of all climbing gear imports is, I suspect, very low, as the market is not great. So, given that climbers are consumers of other products, here's a quick two question survey of climbers support of uk industry.
1. What make is your car?
2. Where was it assembled?
> (In reply to Tom, UKC News Editor) Hi Tom. I don't think all independents do hang on to any sort of romantic notions. I think there needs to be some realism from us as consumers that if we buy on price alone then we will end up with less specialsst shops than there are already. I'm quite happy to pay for choice and service and always use the climbing wall shops in London as they are way better than any of the London chains.
I'm surprised nobody has drawn the distinction between independent uk retailers and independent uk manufacturers. Buying on price alone doesn't affect the shops; you can still have well informed, service oriented specialist shops selling cheap far eastern manufactured goods. Whatyou don't then have is product development or innovation, led by feedback to the manufacturers from the customers. You will be able to buy fit for purpose gear at the best price, but you will not be supporting an industry. So IMHO, the price paid for the "cheap" gear is the stagnation of equipment development.
Anyway, the carbon footprint of all climbing gear imports is, I suspect, very low, as the market is not great. So, given that climbers are consumers of other products, here's a quick two question survey of climbers support of uk industry.
1. What make is your car?
2. Where was it assembled?
In reply to Ian W: The carbon footprint of my climbing gear is negligible compared with the amount of CO2 that I produce driving to various climbing destinations.
In reply to John2:
Indeed, but I was aiming it more at the manufacturing side. We all travel around, so once you've bought a car, you are going to help bugger the atmosphere anyway. I was aiming it at those who "support" British retailers / manufacturers of climbing gear, then get into 1.5 tonnes of Audi (or whatever), without having thought of UK built alternatives.
Yes, I'm involved in UK manufacturing, as a company proprietor.
Indeed, but I was aiming it more at the manufacturing side. We all travel around, so once you've bought a car, you are going to help bugger the atmosphere anyway. I was aiming it at those who "support" British retailers / manufacturers of climbing gear, then get into 1.5 tonnes of Audi (or whatever), without having thought of UK built alternatives.
Yes, I'm involved in UK manufacturing, as a company proprietor.
In reply to Ian W: There are no british alternatives of note. The only good britich cars are sports cars which are hardly good for the environment!
At the end of teh day if British car makers made good cars we would buy them ...take rover. Crap cars = went bust.
At the end of teh day if British car makers made good cars we would buy them ...take rover. Crap cars = went bust.
In reply to Frodo:
There are British-manufactured cars from foreign car companies, though, eg Toyotas made in Derby. Buy one of those for your trips from Sheffield to Stanage and the product-miles will be lower than if you bought an VW or a Fiat.
> (In reply to Ian W) There are no british alternatives of note.
There are British-manufactured cars from foreign car companies, though, eg Toyotas made in Derby. Buy one of those for your trips from Sheffield to Stanage and the product-miles will be lower than if you bought an VW or a Fiat.
In reply to Anonymous:
Wild Country are not and never have been owned by DMM.
Chris Rowlands
Brand Manager DMM
Wild Country are not and never have been owned by DMM.
Chris Rowlands
Brand Manager DMM
In reply to Chris Rowlands:
Am I right in thinking that DMM are essentially two companies, an engineering DMM and a marketing DMM, and that the engineering DMM make the hardware (krabs, cams, wires, etc) for both DMM and WC?
> Wild Country are not and never have been owned by DMM.
Am I right in thinking that DMM are essentially two companies, an engineering DMM and a marketing DMM, and that the engineering DMM make the hardware (krabs, cams, wires, etc) for both DMM and WC?
In reply to Coel Hellier:
You are correct in that DMM Engineering is the Manufacturing arm, and DMM International are the sales side. We are essentially one organisation.
DMM Engineering makes all our carabiners and one carabiner for Wild Country as well as some of their other products, (Anodised wires, Cams, Rockcentrics, ropemen)
Chris Rowlands
Brand Manager DMM
You are correct in that DMM Engineering is the Manufacturing arm, and DMM International are the sales side. We are essentially one organisation.
DMM Engineering makes all our carabiners and one carabiner for Wild Country as well as some of their other products, (Anodised wires, Cams, Rockcentrics, ropemen)
Chris Rowlands
Brand Manager DMM
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
I've always preferred small shops with a choice of lots of specialist gear but more often then not these are located in north wales, the lake district etc. and I tend to find if I've journeyed up there I want to spend my time getting out and doing what I love. This tends to mean I rely heavily on the good internet retailers that I trust when buying new gear (Rock and Run, and Needlesports in particular). I think a lot of independent stores may find that either opening a bit later (so people can pop in after a day out) or having a net presences will help there sales dramatically as I'm sure there are more people out there like me.
I've always preferred small shops with a choice of lots of specialist gear but more often then not these are located in north wales, the lake district etc. and I tend to find if I've journeyed up there I want to spend my time getting out and doing what I love. This tends to mean I rely heavily on the good internet retailers that I trust when buying new gear (Rock and Run, and Needlesports in particular). I think a lot of independent stores may find that either opening a bit later (so people can pop in after a day out) or having a net presences will help there sales dramatically as I'm sure there are more people out there like me.
In reply to Andy Hyslop - UKClimbing.com:
A good point Andy, and a much better way to pigeon hole outdoor/climbing retailers rather than this broad brush independant v's chain idea.
On one hand you have climbing shops/websites that are in it for the profit. They view climbing equipment as a commodity, just like a tin of beans, and apply all the normal 'fiscal rules' of business i.e how cheap can
I buy it and how much can I sell it for to maximise my profit. As well as cleaning their toilets they should really also be selling them as a lot more people need a good throne than need a rack of Jimmy Chins cheap quickdraws.
Then on the other hand you have the climbing shops that want to stock and sell the best climbing product out there, irrespective of the potential profit margins. They see this , coupled with friendly staff who go climbing as the definition of the service other climbers want. Made in Britain is good, but it is always the quality of product for the specified job that wins the day. Good value is important but 'like for like' doesn't really exist. Unlike tins of beans, 4 different camming units aren't the same commodity, as each has individual strengths and weaknesses. To these shops 'fiscal rules' are just the boundaries that keep them in business not the driving factor towards profits and success.
So the good specialist climbing shops (the likes of which Rob mentioned) continue to stock a wide diverse array of the best climbing products to support there local climbers. Whilst the rest of the shops converge into one at the middle ground of outdoor retail where a couple of key high-street brands make them all their money and the climbing products are used like icing sugar to give the impression of a technical store.
The main threat to the specialist climbing shops isn't the multiple or chain. It's the unnecessary discounting of high quality climbing equipment by some retailers who should never had stocked it in the first place, as they have never had the ability to sell it at what it's really worth.
Unfortunately this is the life blood we need to survive.
>
> In my view the big mistake so called 'independents' make is to think that they are immune form the same fiscal rules that larger business run under. Stuff like 'we don't need an stock control system because we know where everything is' and 'what do you mean year end accounts? its only 11 months since our last year end'. All mistakes I have made in the past.
>
> In my view, if you want to be a successful shop or chain, concentrate more on profit and less on making brews.
>
> Above all else, make sure the toilet is clean and everything else will fall into place.
> In my view the big mistake so called 'independents' make is to think that they are immune form the same fiscal rules that larger business run under. Stuff like 'we don't need an stock control system because we know where everything is' and 'what do you mean year end accounts? its only 11 months since our last year end'. All mistakes I have made in the past.
>
> In my view, if you want to be a successful shop or chain, concentrate more on profit and less on making brews.
>
> Above all else, make sure the toilet is clean and everything else will fall into place.
A good point Andy, and a much better way to pigeon hole outdoor/climbing retailers rather than this broad brush independant v's chain idea.
On one hand you have climbing shops/websites that are in it for the profit. They view climbing equipment as a commodity, just like a tin of beans, and apply all the normal 'fiscal rules' of business i.e how cheap can
I buy it and how much can I sell it for to maximise my profit. As well as cleaning their toilets they should really also be selling them as a lot more people need a good throne than need a rack of Jimmy Chins cheap quickdraws.
Then on the other hand you have the climbing shops that want to stock and sell the best climbing product out there, irrespective of the potential profit margins. They see this , coupled with friendly staff who go climbing as the definition of the service other climbers want. Made in Britain is good, but it is always the quality of product for the specified job that wins the day. Good value is important but 'like for like' doesn't really exist. Unlike tins of beans, 4 different camming units aren't the same commodity, as each has individual strengths and weaknesses. To these shops 'fiscal rules' are just the boundaries that keep them in business not the driving factor towards profits and success.
So the good specialist climbing shops (the likes of which Rob mentioned) continue to stock a wide diverse array of the best climbing products to support there local climbers. Whilst the rest of the shops converge into one at the middle ground of outdoor retail where a couple of key high-street brands make them all their money and the climbing products are used like icing sugar to give the impression of a technical store.
The main threat to the specialist climbing shops isn't the multiple or chain. It's the unnecessary discounting of high quality climbing equipment by some retailers who should never had stocked it in the first place, as they have never had the ability to sell it at what it's really worth.
Unfortunately this is the life blood we need to survive.
"In my view, if you want to be a successful shop or chain, concentrate more on profit and less on making brews.
Above all else, make sure the toilet is clean and everything else will fall into place "
Andy good point well made but this must mean lakes climber is f*cked ?
Above all else, make sure the toilet is clean and everything else will fall into place "
Andy good point well made but this must mean lakes climber is f*cked ?
To be somewhat contraversial perhaps, I don't quite see what "added value" I get from a gear shop employing knowledgeable climbers. Maybe I am missing something here, but I don't go into a gear shop to chat to the staff and have a cuppa, I generally walk in, select gear I need, buy, walk out and go climbing. I don't need or want a discussion about what type of QD is best for my purpose, I've normally got my own ideas about that and already knwo what I want.
Occasionally I need to try some shoes on and a member of staff has to fetch me some. Yes, we may chat about what routes we've enjoyed recently, the rubbish weather etc. But I probably know as much about what makes of shoe fit my feet and what they feel like as they do, if not more. To be honest, if I'm looking for something where a bit of experience in (say) alpine climbing might add something to the equation, I normally find myself served by someone who says "sorry, mate, I'm more of a boulderer". And that's been in some rather noteable Lakeland shops.
In fact, on the subject of the staff being a draw for the punter and creating a climber oriented atmosphere, one v well known independant shop had such a reputation for being almost like a club ie v cliquey, that a good many people (including locals) refused to go in.
So I tend to take my own counsel and just buy. What's more important to me is product range, and up to date stock.
Having said all that, I do generally shop in the independants because it does more to support the local economy, it will support and help the staff who are climbers, and I'm not a fan of chains. Despite my comments above, I do feel that climbers are a community and, as someone put it rather well above (though I can't recall the exact words), it does help to make everyone feel that little bit better.
Occasionally I need to try some shoes on and a member of staff has to fetch me some. Yes, we may chat about what routes we've enjoyed recently, the rubbish weather etc. But I probably know as much about what makes of shoe fit my feet and what they feel like as they do, if not more. To be honest, if I'm looking for something where a bit of experience in (say) alpine climbing might add something to the equation, I normally find myself served by someone who says "sorry, mate, I'm more of a boulderer". And that's been in some rather noteable Lakeland shops.
In fact, on the subject of the staff being a draw for the punter and creating a climber oriented atmosphere, one v well known independant shop had such a reputation for being almost like a club ie v cliquey, that a good many people (including locals) refused to go in.
So I tend to take my own counsel and just buy. What's more important to me is product range, and up to date stock.
Having said all that, I do generally shop in the independants because it does more to support the local economy, it will support and help the staff who are climbers, and I'm not a fan of chains. Despite my comments above, I do feel that climbers are a community and, as someone put it rather well above (though I can't recall the exact words), it does help to make everyone feel that little bit better.
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
I think most of the points made above are very valid, particulary those by Andy Hyslop and Rob from V12. I would just add that you can give out all the free tea in the world - and no doubt you will if you start doing it, but it won't pay the bills. But whilst profit is important too, highest on our agenda is just simply remaining human in our approach to customers. Not taking to rigid a line about people returning goods after their 30 days are up etc. Being accessible, via phone or email, and dealing with enquiries as promptly as possible.
The idea that a small shop can remain open late to cater for customers who can't get there in the daytime is no doubt a sound one but if the person making it had just done 8 hours at our shop I doubt he'd want to stay on for another 4 - most of us want to get out on the crags or home to our families (if it's raining!). As for taking on extra staff to work evenings, see above for the problems in recruiting staff.
For most people working in a climbing shop is something they might do when they are young, as the wages are never going to do much more than pay for day to day living. By its nature (and despite occasional evidence to the contrary on this forum), climbing is a sport for the intelligent as Darwinian evolution has a way of taking care of those who do stupid things whilst mountaineering. And intelligent people aren't likely to be happy working all their lives as shop assistants - they usually end up being professionals in some field or becoming self-employed. So most shop assistants in climbing shops are young and as such their experience in the hills is inevitably limited. We are lucky in having a considerable number of older members of staff with more experience who have opted out of a "proper career" for the sake of a good lifestyle, but often such people will end up in supervisory roles and spend more time in the office than on the shop floor.
C'est la vie - we do our best but I'm afraid we will never be perfect. However an hour or two spent on hold on a telephone helpline trying to sort out some sort of problem with just about any large company will probably convince you that the best offered by most independent climbing shops is usually pretty damned good.
I think most of the points made above are very valid, particulary those by Andy Hyslop and Rob from V12. I would just add that you can give out all the free tea in the world - and no doubt you will if you start doing it, but it won't pay the bills. But whilst profit is important too, highest on our agenda is just simply remaining human in our approach to customers. Not taking to rigid a line about people returning goods after their 30 days are up etc. Being accessible, via phone or email, and dealing with enquiries as promptly as possible.
The idea that a small shop can remain open late to cater for customers who can't get there in the daytime is no doubt a sound one but if the person making it had just done 8 hours at our shop I doubt he'd want to stay on for another 4 - most of us want to get out on the crags or home to our families (if it's raining!). As for taking on extra staff to work evenings, see above for the problems in recruiting staff.
For most people working in a climbing shop is something they might do when they are young, as the wages are never going to do much more than pay for day to day living. By its nature (and despite occasional evidence to the contrary on this forum), climbing is a sport for the intelligent as Darwinian evolution has a way of taking care of those who do stupid things whilst mountaineering. And intelligent people aren't likely to be happy working all their lives as shop assistants - they usually end up being professionals in some field or becoming self-employed. So most shop assistants in climbing shops are young and as such their experience in the hills is inevitably limited. We are lucky in having a considerable number of older members of staff with more experience who have opted out of a "proper career" for the sake of a good lifestyle, but often such people will end up in supervisory roles and spend more time in the office than on the shop floor.
C'est la vie - we do our best but I'm afraid we will never be perfect. However an hour or two spent on hold on a telephone helpline trying to sort out some sort of problem with just about any large company will probably convince you that the best offered by most independent climbing shops is usually pretty damned good.
In reply to Stephen Reid:
lol - I've always felt that too though, as you say, UKC sometimes seems to suggest otherwise.
> By its nature (and despite occasional evidence to the contrary on this forum), climbing is a sport for the intelligent as Darwinian evolution has a way of taking care of those who do stupid things whilst mountaineering.
lol - I've always felt that too though, as you say, UKC sometimes seems to suggest otherwise.
In reply to Stephen Reid:
Our staff like the fact they start late once a week.....they can go to the gym, climb, cycle, have a lie in, do weekly shop etc...all before work. They are not doing a longer shift and your business grows through extra custom. Particularly with the growth in on-line retailing then catching those extra few sales thro' later openings gives you competitor advantage. Summer evenings....meeting a mate in Borrowdale after work.....5.30 comes...mm, it's pissing down ...I'll go and checkout that new Patagucci top in Needlesports....it's on my way home.
In a climate where retail growth is small its key to explore the alternatives to maintain/stimulate new growth. My business is some what different to youselves.....however since late night opening commenced 2/3 years ago we have maintained double digit growth in a retail climate that generally is happy if it gets any growth.
> (In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com)
> The idea that a small shop can remain open late to cater for customers who can't get there in the daytime is no doubt a sound one but if the person making it had just done 8 hours at our shop I doubt he'd want to stay on for another 4 - most of us want to get out on the crags or home to our families (if it's raining!). As for taking on extra staff to work evenings, see above for the problems in recruiting staff.
>
In practice, assuming you are not so small as to have only one member of staff in each day, then opening late ....particularly if the rest of Keswick does, is not as daunting as it may seem. You may be pleasantly surprised when you ask your staff how they would feel about doing one late night per week. Think of how it may appeal to them....start at 11.30....work til 8.00. Skeleton staff between 9-11.30...when presumably you may be quite. No increase in staff costs , longer opening hours...meeting your existing customers & new customers demands. >
Our staff like the fact they start late once a week.....they can go to the gym, climb, cycle, have a lie in, do weekly shop etc...all before work. They are not doing a longer shift and your business grows through extra custom. Particularly with the growth in on-line retailing then catching those extra few sales thro' later openings gives you competitor advantage. Summer evenings....meeting a mate in Borrowdale after work.....5.30 comes...mm, it's pissing down ...I'll go and checkout that new Patagucci top in Needlesports....it's on my way home.
In a climate where retail growth is small its key to explore the alternatives to maintain/stimulate new growth. My business is some what different to youselves.....however since late night opening commenced 2/3 years ago we have maintained double digit growth in a retail climate that generally is happy if it gets any growth.
In reply to Ian Barnes:
I understand what you are saying but if you think that the number one priority of any business is anything other than to make a profit then you’ve got to be heading for trouble. All the other stuff you mention can come after but without profit you will cease to exist.
Fiscal rules are also the same, e.g. you pay tax, collect vat, pay wages and NI. It may sound a bit harsh but staff and investors are not going to care less about whether they were working for a specialist climbing shop or not when they get made redundant and or lose their money.
I do think you have to do all of the things you mention that epitomise a specialist shop but you can’t do that without profit.
> (In reply to Andy Hyslop - UKClimbing.com)
> [...]
> To these shops 'fiscal rules' are just the boundaries that keep them in business not the driving factor towards profits and success.
> [...]
> To these shops 'fiscal rules' are just the boundaries that keep them in business not the driving factor towards profits and success.
I understand what you are saying but if you think that the number one priority of any business is anything other than to make a profit then you’ve got to be heading for trouble. All the other stuff you mention can come after but without profit you will cease to exist.
Fiscal rules are also the same, e.g. you pay tax, collect vat, pay wages and NI. It may sound a bit harsh but staff and investors are not going to care less about whether they were working for a specialist climbing shop or not when they get made redundant and or lose their money.
I do think you have to do all of the things you mention that epitomise a specialist shop but you can’t do that without profit.
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
the bottom line is profit...
maybe, but at what cost? in a company owned by shareholders (ie the major chains) it is a legal stipulation that they must do everything in their power to increase the value of their shares. This is what chains like the body shop suffered from by not realising exactly what was implied when they made that step. Roddick near ruined herself trying to regain her own company and wrest it from a 'bottom line' style of business. Being a company with public shareholdings means that everything is geared towards making the most money, not providing the best quality products. This is why someone like Yvon Chouinard has resisted floating Patagonia out.
Where small independent shops can find their edge is precisely in the fact that their primary motivation is not necessarily profit - they can be the place where you will spend a bit more to get that quality - service & product-wise.
Also, a small independent shop has the potential to be much more dynamic & responsive in terms of customer response. They have smaller quantities of stock, they reorder more often from suppliers. They can change direction quicker than a large company-led outlet.
A company should not = profit making machine. At least not necessarily. The whole profit at all cost mentality is extremely short-sighted anyway as there is always a bigger fish out there somewhere once you get into that game. The bigger fish in this game are, like Rob says, the Tescos of the world ie monopolies. To say that independent companies must be run like large companies (chasing profits) is exactly what will be their end if you follow!
f
the bottom line is profit...
maybe, but at what cost? in a company owned by shareholders (ie the major chains) it is a legal stipulation that they must do everything in their power to increase the value of their shares. This is what chains like the body shop suffered from by not realising exactly what was implied when they made that step. Roddick near ruined herself trying to regain her own company and wrest it from a 'bottom line' style of business. Being a company with public shareholdings means that everything is geared towards making the most money, not providing the best quality products. This is why someone like Yvon Chouinard has resisted floating Patagonia out.
Where small independent shops can find their edge is precisely in the fact that their primary motivation is not necessarily profit - they can be the place where you will spend a bit more to get that quality - service & product-wise.
Also, a small independent shop has the potential to be much more dynamic & responsive in terms of customer response. They have smaller quantities of stock, they reorder more often from suppliers. They can change direction quicker than a large company-led outlet.
A company should not = profit making machine. At least not necessarily. The whole profit at all cost mentality is extremely short-sighted anyway as there is always a bigger fish out there somewhere once you get into that game. The bigger fish in this game are, like Rob says, the Tescos of the world ie monopolies. To say that independent companies must be run like large companies (chasing profits) is exactly what will be their end if you follow!
f
In reply to fred_stone:
The original working title of Rob's piece when I asked him to write it was....Specialist Climbing Shops - Not Just For Profit.
Like our beloved independent pubs, to survive Specialist Climbing Shops have to offer much more than the chains (Pubmasters). I read something in a CAMRA magazine about that - especially rural pubs......b+b, quizes, a social hub for the local community, good food, deals for groups (bird watchers, walkers, climbers etc).....not just discount ale and spirits.
A good friend of mine James Wilson runs a specialist climbing shop in Bishop, California, Wilson's Eastside Sports ( http://eastsidesports.com/ ). He saw himself as the "man with three hats," he was a retailer (promoter of outdoor activities), community activist and conservationist (keen bird watcher and Audubon Society activist), as well as a climber (and major local employer).
I learnt a lot from him.
He runs a very tight business, hence his success, and because of his success this allowed him to be very active with the local climbing community, organising slide shows, access and conservation days, donating money to climbing projects. He was before in his early days, but more so now.
His toilet (restroom) was spotless.
So not just for profit, but without that profit (that breathing space) which he worked long and hard for, he wouldn't be able to be such a pillar of the local climbing community.
Mick
The original working title of Rob's piece when I asked him to write it was....Specialist Climbing Shops - Not Just For Profit.
Like our beloved independent pubs, to survive Specialist Climbing Shops have to offer much more than the chains (Pubmasters). I read something in a CAMRA magazine about that - especially rural pubs......b+b, quizes, a social hub for the local community, good food, deals for groups (bird watchers, walkers, climbers etc).....not just discount ale and spirits.
A good friend of mine James Wilson runs a specialist climbing shop in Bishop, California, Wilson's Eastside Sports ( http://eastsidesports.com/ ). He saw himself as the "man with three hats," he was a retailer (promoter of outdoor activities), community activist and conservationist (keen bird watcher and Audubon Society activist), as well as a climber (and major local employer).
I learnt a lot from him.
He runs a very tight business, hence his success, and because of his success this allowed him to be very active with the local climbing community, organising slide shows, access and conservation days, donating money to climbing projects. He was before in his early days, but more so now.
His toilet (restroom) was spotless.
So not just for profit, but without that profit (that breathing space) which he worked long and hard for, he wouldn't be able to be such a pillar of the local climbing community.
Mick
In reply to fred_stone:
Are you the same Fred Stone starting a new climbing wall at London Bridge? If so, I'll be interested to see how your comprehension of - and emotions about - profits have changed once you are up and running!
BTW, Tesco is not a monopoly. The UK supermarket sector is an oligopoly but that's not quite the same thing.
Oh, and: "company owned by shareholders it is a legal stipulation that they must do everything in their power to increase the value of their shares" is nonsense. The shareholders of a company, whether public or private, have certain legal rights, usually requiring majority voting in formal pre-announced meetings, to make a limited number of changes to a company's governance, usually by changing the directors. It's then up to the directors to determine the company's financial objectives. For public companies this will usually be to maximise profitability - and thus share value - but that is not legally-enshrined. Google, for example, professes otherwise.
> > the bottom line is profit...
> maybe, but at what cost? blah blah in a company owned by shareholders (ie the major chains) it is a legal stipulation that they must do everything in their power to increase the value of their shares. blah blah A company should not = profit making machine. At least not necessarily. The whole profit at all cost mentality is extremely short-sighted anyway as there is always a bigger fish out there somewhere once you get into that game. The bigger fish in this game are, like Rob says, the Tescos of the world ie monopolies. To say that independent companies must be run like large companies (chasing profits) is exactly what will be their end if you follow!
> maybe, but at what cost? blah blah in a company owned by shareholders (ie the major chains) it is a legal stipulation that they must do everything in their power to increase the value of their shares. blah blah A company should not = profit making machine. At least not necessarily. The whole profit at all cost mentality is extremely short-sighted anyway as there is always a bigger fish out there somewhere once you get into that game. The bigger fish in this game are, like Rob says, the Tescos of the world ie monopolies. To say that independent companies must be run like large companies (chasing profits) is exactly what will be their end if you follow!
Are you the same Fred Stone starting a new climbing wall at London Bridge? If so, I'll be interested to see how your comprehension of - and emotions about - profits have changed once you are up and running!
BTW, Tesco is not a monopoly. The UK supermarket sector is an oligopoly but that's not quite the same thing.
Oh, and: "company owned by shareholders it is a legal stipulation that they must do everything in their power to increase the value of their shares" is nonsense. The shareholders of a company, whether public or private, have certain legal rights, usually requiring majority voting in formal pre-announced meetings, to make a limited number of changes to a company's governance, usually by changing the directors. It's then up to the directors to determine the company's financial objectives. For public companies this will usually be to maximise profitability - and thus share value - but that is not legally-enshrined. Google, for example, professes otherwise.
In reply to tobyfk: I am the sole director of a limited company which also has a single shareholder (myself). My company's articles of association state that it is the duty of the directors to maximise the profits of the shareholders. This is a duty that I take very seriously.
I think it's pretty common for this sort of statement to be part of the articles of association.
I think it's pretty common for this sort of statement to be part of the articles of association.
In reply to fred_stone:
There is a big difference between the pressure that a PLC is under to increase the value of shares and the profit required by a small privately owned company to exist.
I think its fair comment that smaller retailers can use the fact that they are not under the same pressure to deliver profits and growing share value year after year to their advantage (they can have a bad year and not go out of business).
Yes, there are always bigger fish out there and smaller shops have the advantage that they can shift market focus more quickly and stay ahead of the game but I disagree with your statement that a company should not equal a profit making machine (although I would have put in less harsh terms e.g the primary function of a company is to make a profit). In reality profit is probably not going to happen every year (especially in the outdoor trade), but I would suggest that any business that chooses to forget what the fundamental function of a company is, will never make a profit, will ultimately not exist and probably do a lot damage to perceived product value in the process meaning less cash flowing back to gear manufacturers and less new products.
There is a big difference between the pressure that a PLC is under to increase the value of shares and the profit required by a small privately owned company to exist.
I think its fair comment that smaller retailers can use the fact that they are not under the same pressure to deliver profits and growing share value year after year to their advantage (they can have a bad year and not go out of business).
Yes, there are always bigger fish out there and smaller shops have the advantage that they can shift market focus more quickly and stay ahead of the game but I disagree with your statement that a company should not equal a profit making machine (although I would have put in less harsh terms e.g the primary function of a company is to make a profit). In reality profit is probably not going to happen every year (especially in the outdoor trade), but I would suggest that any business that chooses to forget what the fundamental function of a company is, will never make a profit, will ultimately not exist and probably do a lot damage to perceived product value in the process meaning less cash flowing back to gear manufacturers and less new products.
In reply to fred_stone:
Yes, but the company did have a major crisis about 15 years ago when they made a lot of staff redundant. I can’t remember the exact story but basically they lost control of their costs, produced too much stock and existing staff employed too many of their mates.
> This is why someone like Yvon Chouinard has resisted floating Patagonia out.
>
>
Yes, but the company did have a major crisis about 15 years ago when they made a lot of staff redundant. I can’t remember the exact story but basically they lost control of their costs, produced too much stock and existing staff employed too many of their mates.
In reply to John2:
Probably that's right for off-the-peg companies. It's not a legal obligation though.
> I think it's pretty common for this sort of statement to be part of the articles of association.
Probably that's right for off-the-peg companies. It's not a legal obligation though.
In reply to Andy Hyslop - UKClimbing.com:
Wasn't that Chouinard/ Black Diamond and a liability claim?
> Yes, but the company did have a major crisis about 15 years ago when they made a lot of staff redundant.
Wasn't that Chouinard/ Black Diamond and a liability claim?
In reply to richard kirby:
> Skeleton staff between 9-11.30...when presumably you may be quite< (sic). I presume you mean quiet - trouble is we're not - we are very busy all morning. Afternoons can be quieter, but the only way we could really open late is to employ more staff, plus supervisors would also have to work late. People might be happy to do this in the winter but in the summer we want to get out climbing in the evenings if the weather is good. As I pointed out above, folk who work in climbing shops do it for the lifestyle not the wages in the main, so working late on fine summer evenings is not something they'd want to do or that I'd want to do either - I'd rather make less money!
In reply to tobyfk:
No, it was after that and just a Patagonia problem.
> (In reply to Andy Hyslop - UKClimbing.com)
> Wasn't that Chouinard/ Black Diamond and a liability claim?
No, it was after that and just a Patagonia problem.
In reply to JonC:
It's more than community (even though thats perhaps the most important factor). A good climbing shop will enable you to try the fit of new products, will be up on local climbing news, will know more than you on technical issues (unless you are a master gear freak), and give visiting climbers something to do when its raining. Not all chain shops are bad: my local Cotswold for instance do a lot of good local work for climbers.
Climbers are all too often miserable stingy sods and some are parasites. I can forgive the former for those with little income but those who can afford it and who do use the shops (for the benefits above) should support them by buying there and arguing less over trivial differences in costs. In that spirit I always try to buy something from a new good shop I find on any climbing trip and support the best shops in my regular haunts. If we (who use the shops and can afford it) all did this more, shops would be doing better with more stock and better discounts.
I do expect the shops to be well run but this is almost a given in the current market, otherwise they would't have survived the competition.
It's more than community (even though thats perhaps the most important factor). A good climbing shop will enable you to try the fit of new products, will be up on local climbing news, will know more than you on technical issues (unless you are a master gear freak), and give visiting climbers something to do when its raining. Not all chain shops are bad: my local Cotswold for instance do a lot of good local work for climbers.
Climbers are all too often miserable stingy sods and some are parasites. I can forgive the former for those with little income but those who can afford it and who do use the shops (for the benefits above) should support them by buying there and arguing less over trivial differences in costs. In that spirit I always try to buy something from a new good shop I find on any climbing trip and support the best shops in my regular haunts. If we (who use the shops and can afford it) all did this more, shops would be doing better with more stock and better discounts.
I do expect the shops to be well run but this is almost a given in the current market, otherwise they would't have survived the competition.
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
Interesting article Rob.
I've been spending a lot of the last 4-months researching the way that shopping has changed and the directions it could go in future.
As a result I'm convinced that the added value of expertise and product knowledge that retailers (I'm speaking here of the non-FMCG space) bring is going to be eroded more and more.
To quote JonC
From what I see JonC will become a more typical shopper as time goes on. Consumers today have ever increasing sources of information about products, technologies, techniques etc. They have the ability to inform themselves down to fine detail (if they wish) even about country of origin, carbon footprint, ethical use of labour etc before they move from research to shopping.
In the past a shoppers sources of information may have been mates, a review in a few magazines and the advice of a specialist retailer. Now you have access to the manufacturer (in some cases the designer's or product manager's opinions), user reviews (good and bad), specialst comparison sites and services, information on a multitude of online stores in any segment, online magazines, forums, chat rooms etc etc.
Already, from the information I have, over 30% of in-store purchases are informed purchases based on internet research, specifically a decision between a selection of two to four previously shortlisted items - confirmation based shopping; while 45% of internet purchases are made following a store visit that was preceeded by internet research and was used to eliminate all but one or two of the shortlist - price-based shopping.
The projections from most of the analysts I've spoken to is that the percentage of internet-informed store purchases will continue to grow rapidly over the next 5-years.
The approximate consequence is that the justification for higher margins or even higher margin products will erode as shoppers increase their knowledge and their confidence in their decisions.
A few of our retail clients are already recognising this impact and looking for ways to combat it. All of them are effectively saying that they can't reverse this trend so they have to go with the flow and are looking at multi-channel retailing strategies to actually encourage just this kind of shopping behaviour in customers.
So for the specialist independant I'd say that one of the big emerging challenges is going to be working out how to broadcast your specialist knowledge earlier in the shopping-cycle i.e. so you influence people before they walk in the door and another is to give them access to the purchasing method that they choose to use so that the experience of buying is near seamless.
Interesting article Rob.
I've been spending a lot of the last 4-months researching the way that shopping has changed and the directions it could go in future.
As a result I'm convinced that the added value of expertise and product knowledge that retailers (I'm speaking here of the non-FMCG space) bring is going to be eroded more and more.
To quote JonC
> I don't need or want a discussion about what type of QD is best for my purpose, I've normally got my own ideas about that and already knwo what I want.
From what I see JonC will become a more typical shopper as time goes on. Consumers today have ever increasing sources of information about products, technologies, techniques etc. They have the ability to inform themselves down to fine detail (if they wish) even about country of origin, carbon footprint, ethical use of labour etc before they move from research to shopping.
In the past a shoppers sources of information may have been mates, a review in a few magazines and the advice of a specialist retailer. Now you have access to the manufacturer (in some cases the designer's or product manager's opinions), user reviews (good and bad), specialst comparison sites and services, information on a multitude of online stores in any segment, online magazines, forums, chat rooms etc etc.
Already, from the information I have, over 30% of in-store purchases are informed purchases based on internet research, specifically a decision between a selection of two to four previously shortlisted items - confirmation based shopping; while 45% of internet purchases are made following a store visit that was preceeded by internet research and was used to eliminate all but one or two of the shortlist - price-based shopping.
The projections from most of the analysts I've spoken to is that the percentage of internet-informed store purchases will continue to grow rapidly over the next 5-years.
The approximate consequence is that the justification for higher margins or even higher margin products will erode as shoppers increase their knowledge and their confidence in their decisions.
A few of our retail clients are already recognising this impact and looking for ways to combat it. All of them are effectively saying that they can't reverse this trend so they have to go with the flow and are looking at multi-channel retailing strategies to actually encourage just this kind of shopping behaviour in customers.
So for the specialist independant I'd say that one of the big emerging challenges is going to be working out how to broadcast your specialist knowledge earlier in the shopping-cycle i.e. so you influence people before they walk in the door and another is to give them access to the purchasing method that they choose to use so that the experience of buying is near seamless.
> "Does the fact that Cotswolds is now owned by a Belgian holding company or that Sports Soccer now own a high percentage of.....The choice is yours…"
>
> .....writes Rob Wilson of V12 Outdoor, in this opinion piece looking at the role of the ‘specialist’ climbing shop, offshore manufacturing, fat cat retailers, internet shopping and the price of outdoor gear.
>
> .....writes Rob Wilson of V12 Outdoor, in this opinion piece looking at the role of the ‘specialist’ climbing shop, offshore manufacturing, fat cat retailers, internet shopping and the price of outdoor gear.
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
You appear to be appraising your business and its market through a prism of idealism, not meant to offend.
The fact is that the larger, less specialist retailers tend to succeed because they appraise the market and make decisions in order to maximise their revenue and bottom line margin.
A different, but more quickly made (i.e. 5 minute, ok going on for 15 mins now) SWOT
Strengths
Staff - specialist shops are always going to have better staff who use the kit and can offer good advice.
Whether students working weekends or longer term full timers, these are the main asset of specialist shops
Customer loyalty. Although this does get hit by the price of gear, core customers will likely stick with a specialist retailer; however apart from a few these won't have endless pockets and needs.
If you are truly in business to make some money but not have to achieve a certain return on capital employed, then you have an advantage of being able and willing to withstand slumps in the market (assuming you can survive)
Weaknesses
Supply chain management - as stated difficult to maintain stock levels and variety; however, why should rock and run and others not pick non direct geographic competitors and jointly source goods. (remember big companies work for a reason)
Cash flow - although goods are paid for quickly and not on long credit terms, some even in cash but less and less) the working capital requirements of stocking a shop are I expect difficult to finance.
Where working capital is funded by debt, interest rate risk in the current climate will be putting the squeeze on margins.
Leasing costs - these are a fixed cost that will rise with the increase in costs for the owners if they have debt secured on them or are mortgaged.
Opportunities
Why should small specialists not work together? Joint ventures through joint procurement of stock and joint distribution may save money and the interests of specialists in different geographic areas should be aligned.
Merge - further than joint procurement - why not merge and gain the economies of scale of larger outfits while striving to maintain the specialist strengths - expertise and brand name.
Online presence. Any shop owner without an online selling presence is shooting themselves in the foot and reducing their possible market. If you have a shop and products and the shop isn't busy 24-7, which none are, then you have the time to take online orders and post them out.
Giving something extra online - if people come to your website because it has the best articles, links to weather forecast, new route and local area news they are likely, to be more likely to find the website and buy through it.
Work with local groups - whether it be a walking club or a university mountaineering club, by organising discount nights, competitions and social events you can
1) improve your turnover
2) become part of the local scene in a number of different groups
3) help improve the social scene around the groups in your area and
4) increase the opportunity of gaining experienced staff
Threats
New entrants - expanding empires like Cotswolds moving in to a new area would concern any specialist shop, but can be countered - see opportunities
exchange rates - yes it is cheaper to buy $ priced gear and wishing the pound weakens against the dollar isn't going to solve the problem, given the underlying problems in the US economy.
interest rates - already mentioned if you are leasing or mortgaged/highly geared and margins are low.
biggish business in the climbing world. Competitors who can raise more finance, bulk buy and take on prominent positions in towns are a threat as they will be able to squeeze margins and compete on price. These companies can also afford to make little money off the ambleside/hathersage branches because part of the idea is for them to build confidence and legitimacy in the brand.
local competition - there are a number of specialists. Maybe one reason rock and run is going online only is because it was a small shop in a difficult to stumble across location in a place saturated with gear shops where a large % of people go for the weekend do something and go home.
Conclusion
It's no good looking at the state of the market and moaning that corporate monkeys are taking over and it's all unfair.
You have to win customers and as always in business, because that is what you do, there will be winners and losers.
The way to win is to make the most of your opportunities while trying to mitigate your risks. Specialists have and will continue to survive in the market, and the ability to trade online helps the smaller geographically constrained specialists as well as the large retailers, although it must be remembered that here you are competing in a different market.
I do climb, appreciate specialist shops and want them to be around in the long term. I have not worked in the outdoor industry for a number of years and do not know enough to offer sound advice, I am not an expert - but thought I would offer some quick, not complete, thoughts.
In reply to theoriginalmoggy:
Exactly how some manufacturers use UKClimbing.com
http://ads.ukclimbing.com/whyukc.html
"Interactive Advertising
Internet advertising is different than print advertising, and far more effective.
It creates dynamic AWARENESS of your products and services via banners, newsletter adverts, gear reviews, forum discussions and premier posts that expose your message and product/service to the largest number of readers of any climbing media in the UK.
You can EDUCATE climbers about your company and its products and services, INTERACT* with your customers, and importantly show climbers where to BUY your products and services."
> (In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com)
> In the past a shoppers sources of information may have been mates, a review in a few magazines and the advice of a specialist retailer. Now you have access to the manufacturer (in some cases the designer's or product manager's opinions)
Exactly how some manufacturers use UKClimbing.com
http://ads.ukclimbing.com/whyukc.html
"Interactive Advertising
Internet advertising is different than print advertising, and far more effective.
It creates dynamic AWARENESS of your products and services via banners, newsletter adverts, gear reviews, forum discussions and premier posts that expose your message and product/service to the largest number of readers of any climbing media in the UK.
You can EDUCATE climbers about your company and its products and services, INTERACT* with your customers, and importantly show climbers where to BUY your products and services."
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
What is concerning me right now is finding my new Sportiva Nepal EVO GTX, previously being sold at Planetfear for £179, now I can't get hold of them for anywhere near that price!! £230 is the closest price, it makes you wonder though if many of these bigger retailers are artificially keeping their prices high, all the high street names ellis brigham, snow and rock etc are pricing them at £280 whilst some smaller specialist shops are able to knock £100 off, why is that?
Anyhow if anyone knows where I could pick a pair of these up at the same price I would be most grateful
What is concerning me right now is finding my new Sportiva Nepal EVO GTX, previously being sold at Planetfear for £179, now I can't get hold of them for anywhere near that price!! £230 is the closest price, it makes you wonder though if many of these bigger retailers are artificially keeping their prices high, all the high street names ellis brigham, snow and rock etc are pricing them at £280 whilst some smaller specialist shops are able to knock £100 off, why is that?
Anyhow if anyone knows where I could pick a pair of these up at the same price I would be most grateful
In reply to Andy White:
Thats because planetfear is closing and probably getting rid of their stock at what they paid for it or only a very small mark up more. There was a thread about prices a while back in the gear section.
Thats because planetfear is closing and probably getting rid of their stock at what they paid for it or only a very small mark up more. There was a thread about prices a while back in the gear section.
In reply to Andy White:
Planet Fear effectively went bust. Doesn’t that tell you something about why you can’t buy those boots anywhere else at £179?
> (In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com)
>
> What is concerning me right now is finding my new Sportiva Nepal EVO GTX, previously being sold at Planetfear for £179, now I can't get hold of them for anywhere near that price!!
>
> What is concerning me right now is finding my new Sportiva Nepal EVO GTX, previously being sold at Planetfear for £179, now I can't get hold of them for anywhere near that price!!
Planet Fear effectively went bust. Doesn’t that tell you something about why you can’t buy those boots anywhere else at £179?
In reply to Andy White:
As has been said before, margins on outdoor gear are not great and for the amount of stock that they have to keep, the outlay for the retailer is huge. Think of all the styles of boot a retailer has on display then multiply the cost per pair by the number of shoe sizes. Then start looking at the clothing and hardwear...
Now think about all the people who go in the shop to try stuff on then go home and search the net for the cheapest deal from some backstreet online retailer who doesn't keep full stock, therefore doesn't have the initial outlay and can knock an extra £20 off.
What would you do without that first shop where you had the service of trying on and properly fitting the boots?
It's an old rant, but please, people, start paying that extra few quid to support the shops that are fast disappearing...
C-:
> (In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com)
>
> it makes you wonder though if many of these bigger retailers are artificially keeping their prices high...
>
> it makes you wonder though if many of these bigger retailers are artificially keeping their prices high...
As has been said before, margins on outdoor gear are not great and for the amount of stock that they have to keep, the outlay for the retailer is huge. Think of all the styles of boot a retailer has on display then multiply the cost per pair by the number of shoe sizes. Then start looking at the clothing and hardwear...
Now think about all the people who go in the shop to try stuff on then go home and search the net for the cheapest deal from some backstreet online retailer who doesn't keep full stock, therefore doesn't have the initial outlay and can knock an extra £20 off.
What would you do without that first shop where you had the service of trying on and properly fitting the boots?
It's an old rant, but please, people, start paying that extra few quid to support the shops that are fast disappearing...
C-:
In reply to CarolineMc:
Is it not idealistic to suggest that people make a concious decision to pay more?
As nice as this would be, it isn't a real world solution to the problems of specialist retailers.
I haven't looked at any accounts for specialist retailers and so have little knowledge of how desperate or otherwise the situation is. However, there are many things that specialist retailers can do to survive.
Specialist retailers have to adapt to the changing market. They must capitalise on their strengths, while exploiting new opportunities and mitigating the risks they face.
Furthermore, why should it not be possible to have a big specialist retailer? Perhaps the market already has one.
Is it not idealistic to suggest that people make a concious decision to pay more?
As nice as this would be, it isn't a real world solution to the problems of specialist retailers.
I haven't looked at any accounts for specialist retailers and so have little knowledge of how desperate or otherwise the situation is. However, there are many things that specialist retailers can do to survive.
Specialist retailers have to adapt to the changing market. They must capitalise on their strengths, while exploiting new opportunities and mitigating the risks they face.
Furthermore, why should it not be possible to have a big specialist retailer? Perhaps the market already has one.
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: Rock and Run is a specialist on line retailer who give a great service and good prices. They used to be a "high street" retailer. I assume they made the decision to become exclisively on-line for marketing reasons
In reply to Garson:
Because a large specialist shop needs a large specialist staff and there are not normally enough people in one place with the requisite skills and experience who will also work for peanuts.
> (In reply to CarolineMc)
> Specialist retailers have to adapt to the changing market. They must capitalise on their strengths, while exploiting new opportunities and mitigating the risks they face.
>
> Furthermore, why should it not be possible to have a big specialist retailer? Perhaps the market already has one.
> Specialist retailers have to adapt to the changing market. They must capitalise on their strengths, while exploiting new opportunities and mitigating the risks they face.
>
> Furthermore, why should it not be possible to have a big specialist retailer? Perhaps the market already has one.
Because a large specialist shop needs a large specialist staff and there are not normally enough people in one place with the requisite skills and experience who will also work for peanuts.
In reply to Rob - proper climbing shop manager: Rob, is it this week you're in our neck of the woods? If so there is one of our new posh coffees with your name on it.
Iain
Iain
In reply to IainWhitehouse:
The point wasn't meant to mean a large climbing specialist superstore, which would be unlikely to work without pulling together a number of pursuits.
The point I was trying to make is that a number of specialist retailers could benefit from working together as a string of seperate outlets with common procurement and distribution.
The point wasn't meant to mean a large climbing specialist superstore, which would be unlikely to work without pulling together a number of pursuits.
The point I was trying to make is that a number of specialist retailers could benefit from working together as a string of seperate outlets with common procurement and distribution.
In reply to Garson:
But separate buying (or procurement as you put it) is pretty much what defines our independence.
> (In reply to IainWhitehouse)
>
> The point I was trying to make is that a number of specialist retailers could benefit from working together as a string of seperate outlets with common procurement and distribution.
>
> The point I was trying to make is that a number of specialist retailers could benefit from working together as a string of seperate outlets with common procurement and distribution.
But separate buying (or procurement as you put it) is pretty much what defines our independence.
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: Do you know what really annoys me? Shops that sell gear and keep it behind the counter so you can't fondle (the gear that is) it at your pleasure.
In my mind thats where places like field and trek, snow and rock have an advantage I suppose they can put up with bloody shop lifters that put gear behind the counter.
I have nothing against asking but in the couple of shops I know locally that sell gear, you get some sales speak from a spotty 15yr old, when I'm experience enough to be able to make a judgement by just playing with stuff.
The shops that are good allow you to freely handle gear without having to ask for it.
Sorry if this has nothing to do with the thread but its how I see things and its really been winding me up of late.
In my mind thats where places like field and trek, snow and rock have an advantage I suppose they can put up with bloody shop lifters that put gear behind the counter.
I have nothing against asking but in the couple of shops I know locally that sell gear, you get some sales speak from a spotty 15yr old, when I'm experience enough to be able to make a judgement by just playing with stuff.
The shops that are good allow you to freely handle gear without having to ask for it.
Sorry if this has nothing to do with the thread but its how I see things and its really been winding me up of late.
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