UKC

I was at Curbar on the weekend and had a great day which was hugely marred by the presence of these muppets:

http://abseiling.200blogs.co.uk/

Whilst I have no specific objections to them abseiling, especially for charity, I was wondering what the hell is going through their heads as they pounded in the 20+ steel stakes they felt was required to fix their 1 rope to, leaving holes all over the top of the turf at the top of the Eliminates wall. As if the area doesn't get enough wear and tear, these people think its a good idea to pitch up on a very busy weekend and abseil in one of the busiest areas of the crag, having a competition to see who can get to the bottom touching the crag the least, whooping and screaming with delight whilst others are trying to climb Peapod only a few metres away. I do not want to be a spoil sport but this really is the limit! These people need to be told to desist before they cause serious damage to the tops of any crags. Surely them knowing how to use the huge boulder 10 feet further back from their stakes would have obviated the requirement for their stakes? And if they have no qualms about doing this at one of the most populated crags in the peak district, how long is it before there is a serious accident involving climbers coming the other way?

In reply to mike kann:

20+ steel stakes? Surely not. I pity the poor bastard who had to carry those up from the minibus.

In reply to mike kann:

Well having set up a group - and what crazy kids they are; to quote "In my college days we used to call our group of friends the No Fear team… what ever crazy stunt somebody mentioned, you name it we were up for it" - it seems they are going to be doing it again and again....

Wonder why they have gone for "Alford Abseilers" rather than the "No Fear Team"?

In reply to Rob Hannah: To be honest it was rather comical listening into the discussion between two of them about their next general meeting...

In reply to Rob Hannah:

Probably because they would be sued by the owners of the 'No Fear' brand.

Let's face it though, they are living on the edge....

Steve

In reply to mike kann: ... not to mention their training sessions...

In reply to mike kann:

Agenda for General Meeting - Alford Top Ropers

1) Do we project a cool hip image
2) Dare we dare be anymore daring
3) Who is going to carry the metal steaks next time
4) Do we need more metal steaks
5) Are titanium steaks better than steel steaks
6) Who'se wife is going to make the refreshments next time

In reply to mike kann: this is an elaborate troll surely . . ?

10/10 for effort like . . .

In reply to rich: I really really wish it was. I am composing an e-mail to them...

In reply to SteveSBlake:


It's better than that, they're even abseiling of it!!!

<staggers>

In reply to mike kann:

Interested to see that and read the reply!
Haven't been to that area of Curbar, but surely if there is adequate gear to belay from, they don't need stakes? (Well aware that their anchor set up is only part of the issue!)

In reply to mike kann:

Dear Sirs,

I pray that your rope snaps.

Yours faithfully,

Mike

In reply to mike kann:

If this isn't a mad wind up, surely the park authorities would have something to say about the use of stakes and the damage caused for starters?

In reply to Rob Hannah: I was quite surprised that it didn't on some of them. One bloke during his quest for getting to the bottom the quickest forgot that he'd tied a knot halfway down and promptly ran straight into it and stopped dead. Then they had a f*cking good laugh about it. These peopl are so fricking irresponsible and selfish I still can't quite believe it...

In reply to Rob Hannah:

one Alford Abseiler says to his butcher....would you like to do this charity abseil?











sorry the steaks are too high

In reply to catt:


If it was for charity and stuff they may have sought permission first?

In reply to Morgan Woods:

My misteak.

In reply to mike kann: Isn't Curbar a bit far from Alford ? (or there another one far from Aberdeenshire )

Not convinced this isn't a troll

In reply to Rob Hannah:


Because they're using ropes. If they truely had no fear, I presume they wouldn't.

In reply to Rob Hannah:


That's a lot more likely than their anchors failing. They certainly go for "more is more" on that point!

In reply to mike kann:

So it seems instead of buying motorbikes and racing around the Dales to caputure their youth (the group diminishing weekly) they have taken to abseiling. Regrettably, it might not prove as dangerous.

In reply to mike kann:
Sorry, but I'm not really following this.
Do people actually abseil just for the purposes of abseiling?
I know that fok do it fo chairty and what-not, but to do it as an activity in its own right and than whoop on about it would just make you a fanny, surely?

In reply to Hay: Apparently they do. They even have jumpers to prove it.

In reply to mike kann:

"About Us
The extreme sport of Abseiling used to descend a steep rock face, crag or building. This is the official UK club site where we share our passion."

from there website. Genius. Gotta love "extreme sports".

"Coming second is the first loser"

In reply to Doug:


It would be very very elaborate if it was...

http://www.e-lindsey.gov.uk/leisure/sports-dev/get-involved/directory/clubs...

In reply to mike kann: far out dude, tits..also, when I was down at Bowles awhile ago, there were people abseiling..I thought you weren't supposed to abseil down sandstone, or am I misinformed?

and when did abseiling become a extreme sport?

In reply to timo.t:


Shortly after snowboarders started thinking they were "sticking it to the man" by sliding down a hill dressed in designer clothing.

In reply to galpinos:


I always think it shows a great deal of self disipline.

In reply to mike kann:
What a bunch of numpties.

I enjoy abseiling as much as the next person (it can be a lot of fun!) but it's NOT an 'extreme sport' of any kind, the notion of joining some kind of so-called elite club to show off how daring you are is frankly ridiculous, and their use of lots of metal stakes shows both ignorance and carelessness.

Abseiling can be an activity in its own right, but not really amongst climbers. I would normally enjoy abbing back off a route more than walking off the back way, though.

In reply to mike kann:

Dear Sir/Madam,



I was climbing at Curbar edge on Sunday and was wondering whether you’d like to explain what on earth crossed your minds as you pounded in the 20 stakes you felt was necessary to anchor your ropes to the top of the crag? This crag is one of the busiest in the area, with not only masses of walkers, but climbers who do enough to damage the top of the edges without the aid of people like yourselves helping the process of erosion with your stakes. Furthermore whilst I have no objections to you using a crag for charity abseils, I do think that your actions were foolish and irresponsible. Having competitions to see who can get down the crag the quickest when you have people only a few metres away climbing who are in a situation where distractions are really quite unneeded, and where anything knocked from the top could have serious consequences, is just the most selfish and stupid thing you could possibly think up.



As you left the crag I felt I should inspect the damage caused by your stakes – you left holes all over the crag top. Perhaps you should have thought about abandoning your plans if you do not know how to anchor ropes for this type of event without causing serious damage? There was a perfectly suitable boulder only ten feet further back which could have been used to good effect, not to mention the use of the standard traditional protection which the 20 odd climbers were using all around you. If you do not know how to use these, perhaps you could learn during your training sessions I overheard so much about. Further more there was no edge protection present, which apart from abrading your ropes quickly will damage the top of the crag over the course of a day. Gritstone is not the hardest of rock, especially once the top thin layer of oxidised rock has worn away. I would suggest you look at some of the sandstone crags south of London for evidence of this if I didn’t think you’d try to abseil on them.



Quite apart from you apparent lack of interest in the well being of other users of the crag, there was a distinct lack of knowledge with regards to your own safety - jumping halfway down a crag straight into a knot on a static line is NOT a laughing matter – your members seem to think it is. It is a sure way to get an injury, damage equipment, and at worst cut your rope. As a first aider and trainee mountain instructor who would be required to assist, I do not feel it is fair that you place me or any others like me in a situation where their assistance may be required through your utter stupidity. Furthermore looking through the photos which you use to document your exploits at High Tor, the way in which you use the trees is so incorrect it pains me. Tree bark is fragile and removing it means the tree dies. Both the BMC and climbers spend years gaining access to crags like these, which is usually granted on provisos that we adhere to best practice: e.g. use slings and wherever it might be required some form of padding around trees to prevent damage to the bark and hence the continued health of the tree. http://thebmc.co.uk/News.aspx?id=2184 Abseiling is specifically discouraged at High Tor, and by doing so you endanger OUR access through your ignorance.



I will be reporting you to both the British Mountaineering Council and also the National Parks.



Best regards,



Mike Kann

In reply to mike kann:

what about finding out if their INSURERS will reimburse the National Park for the criminal damage

In reply to mike kann: Its now been reported to the BMC who will be getting touch with them...

In reply to mike kann:

nice mail. what a bunch of duckwits

In reply to mike kann: bit ranty :¬)

i'd contact the BMC and specifically the local access officer before worrying national parks and/or land owning types about it

they might not see the distinction between what 'we' do and what 'they' do

In reply to mike kann: Wow what a crazy bunch of guys. I'm going to name my new route after them.

In reply to johnl: It it a really tame route then?

In reply to mike kann: A grade 3, 7 metre sports route.

In reply to johnl: 7 bolts?

In reply to timo.t:


Nope, you're not misinformed....except that at Bowles, the Outdoor Centre reserves the right to teach abseiling. Normally from the stake set up at the top of reclamation slab.

In reply to mike kann: I think I had better go back and put some more in.

In reply to johnl: Better put in extra bolts for the lower off...

Post a comment on their blog, I have.

"Great site, wouldn’t it have been better to wait until April 1st before putting this online. Extereme Abseiling "

Unfortunately I didn't spot the typo until after I submitted it.

In reply to Philip: yeh - it must me a wind up surely?

In reply to mike kann: abseiling can be a laugh but preferably of something nice and high like a bridge. plenty of abandoned railway bridges in the north west that are worthy of both abseiling and bridge jumping. why tie up valuable spots on a popular crag when you got the above

In reply to mike kann: That has got to be the most comedy website I've seen in a long while-what a bunch of numpties. Did you say something at the time? I struggle to understand why people do this sort of stuff-you would have to be stupid not to realise the damage the stakes are doing, surely?
Sam

In reply to mike kann: Yes, 20 of 'em.

In reply to mike kann:
To be honest, you are best to just refer this matter to the BMC and not get involved in slanging matches with them. Also take photos of whatever damage they do.

Climbers are in no position to criticise others for dangerous behaviour or activities that could result in a MRT call out. Similarly we are on very thin ice when it comes to polish, damage to the rocks and vegitation, loud whooping etc.

At least with the new BMC crag code we can show them how they ought to behave, but at the end of the day, they have as much right to use the crag for their sport as we do for ours.

P.S. Were they on Curbar on Sunday as well - noticed that the elimanates are looked a bit more popular than usual

In reply to Chris the Tall: I have no problem with the actual abseiling as long as its conducted in a reasonable way - when I say whooping I mean proper whooping - continually. At the time I was on Left Eliminate and I found it really really distracting, which is saying something as the route is shall we say "engrossing"... I have notified the BMC and sent the letter. If they have a problem with me I really don't care. There were a lot more people at the crag who had a problem with them and I'm sure won't say anything. If they get a slap on the wrists by the BMC for the stakes and environmental aspects, this won't convey quite how dangerous what they were doing was. Besides I wasn't talking about MRT - I was talking about me having to get involved by virtue of the fact that I was there and that they most likely don't have a first aider on their "team".

Hmmm... Looks like you can leave comments on their blog.

In reply to JPG:

Regrettably they do not appear to get published

In reply to mike kann:
Hmm, shades of: http://web.archive.org/web/20030620132451/myweb.tiscali.co.uk/andrewmoorhou... !!

In reply to mike kann:
Hold on, I'm not defending these muppets, and I can understand how disturbing it was for you.

Just trying to say that the best approach is to collect evidence (photograph the stakes in particular) and pass it on to the BMC. They probably don't give a damn about the BMC either, but the BMC has leverage with the national parks when it comes to environmental damage

The problem with your letter is that all your accusations could also be leveled at climbers. For eaxample, there are stakes above Millstone and Lawrencefield, so why not Curbar ?

In reply to mike kann:

To do them justice it would need 20, 14 on the climb and 6 in the lower off.....

In reply to Chris the Tall:

Most of them can't however also the processes tend to be less damaging, putting in a stake does some damage removing it does more and leaves the crag top exposed to further errosion via natural weathering. Also climbing requires the crag to carry out the activity. While the Alford muppetry group could have run there event on say monsal head viaduct with as much success.

Also some of the muppetry shows they don't know what the risks are in what they are doing. Over engineered systems to mitigate small but obvious risks, little or no action to avoid more subtle ones....

In reply to Chris the Tall: Unfortunately I didn't take photo's - maybe if you live near you could pop up - I am sure they are all still there... as I said I've already passed it on to the BMC As for stakes at the top of crags - not where there are boulders which you could use instead... or natural pro... TBH these people would not give a crap if there was a precedence for stakes or not - they are just not thinking clearly and doing what they fancy rather than thinking that they might have a direct impact on anything, whether that be other people using the crag (including the walkers who would have been able to hear them from miles) or the environment... If this is what they feel is a good way to raise their profile to help charity then they are grossly mistaken!

In reply to mike kann:

Thank you for your letter to Alford Abseilers, we will reply in due course. Now I'm sure your mother has told you a MILLION times not to exagerate.... it must have been closer to 40 stakes we hammered into the ground that day!! hah ha ha. We have a policy of making the poor bugger who carried them up feel like he was needed. On this occasion our mountain goat had no room for edge protectors! and it is nice to see some of you so concerned for the wear and tear of our ropes, although really guys - there's no need.

As for climbers being only metres away from our descent point, please bare in mind that when we set up - the climbers were still sleeping in their pits. I truly understand your elitist views to having a higher form of sport than us abseilers, however our lack of fitness ensures that we really do drop down the rope vertically to where our ground safety can control the descent at any time by applying a little downward pressure on the rope. I know you guys prefer to avoid abseiling in the course of your sport whenever possible - and to be frank, the lack of safety you guys employ in such abseils - I'd want to avoid it too


Two of our most passionate of members - Numpty Dumpty and ClingOn are desperate to avoid contact with the crag as much as possible on their way down as they do realise the constant attention you climbers give the crag every weekend - hence the compettion to get to the bottom in the least number of touches!!

We certainly will take note of your observation to possibly tie our rope around the huge boulder 10 feet further back - on this occasion however - it was used efficiently by the wife as the kitchen ! te he he he which certainly proved a hit with the ramblers out on Sunday, many of which enjoyed speaking with us positively about abseiling. I know you serious climbers tend to be a solitary bunch, but if one or two of you wanted to get into the spirit of things, just join in.....

Where we abseiled at Curbar Edge is a nice little crag, ideal for a bit of training... the club mentioned on Sunday that although we only visit Curbar once a year, that you guys were so much fun to watch that we might make Curbar a monthly trip! to see you guys baring naked chests; bottoms; no head protection and some of you throuwing ropes down ontop of your colleagues is clearly inspiration for us mere numpties.....
......the knot and metal work put in the ropes was intended as part of training. We use an abseil rope and a Shunt line rope at the same time guys - that adds up to 2x ropes for some of you who struggle to count. Note the spelling of Stakes too guys - our kitchen didn't have any Steaks on Sunday.


Our training day went well thanks for your concern, yes the club will take seriously your comments concerning noise, as well as soil divots from our stakes - which, when rigged in the "Y" form add immense safety into the system and hardly any tension to the ground whatsoever.

As for providing first aid - thanks for your thoughful concern, the club has been in existing since the early 80's and has Not had any participant suffer more than a graze. Our members can share instances where we have helped climbers in difficulty however...go figure!

Our fire brigade members specifically like bridges, so I shall pass on your forums' comments on that score, however our 7 British Red Cross members are really partial to crags such as Malham Cove... so I think we'll have a battle getting everybody down to Curbar Edge each month...

As for comments on our site, be patient dudes - avoid the swearing and immaturity, and you'll probably see your works of art publicised !
Yours, the sad Top Roper!

In reply to Top Roper:

Hmmmm. You really are a cock.

In reply to Top Roper: Bloody hell Tom - all those words and only one spelling mistake that I noticed.

In reply to Ridge: He seems to be an amalgamation of several Fast Show characters.

Still, can't help but think the OP should have left this one to the BMC.

In reply to Top Roper:

Well, the Abseilers clearly like abseiling, and I think we generally agree that it's probably one of the least enjoyable parts of climbing - so mightn't the Abseilers enjoy climbing itself even more?

Maybe they should book a course and learn the basics!

In reply to Top Roper: As I said - I could not care less what the activity is - what I was concerned about mainly was the fact that you hammered stakes into the ground when there was absolutely no need. Had it been climbers doing the same I would have been equally outraged.

Curbar edge is despite what you might think, not "ideal for a bit of training". It is a busy crag and although I appreciate that you want to abseil in a nice spot, as one of your members put it, its not the perfect place to train. Your stakes allow water to get into the ground more easily and increase the wear on the section of the crag - it has nothing to do with tension on the ground. Add to this that you seem to have a precedent for not adhering to best practice (tree's at High Tor) and ignoring access agreements (High Tor). The Edge protection issue was more concerned with the abrasion caused to the ROCK than to your ropes. It is well known that once a groove is worn it does not disappear any time soon.

I am sorry people have made unnecessary comments on your Blog - that was not my intention.

In reply to mike kann:

Top-Roper is not someone from Alford Abseilers.

In reply to John2:

Cool! that's good... threw it in to see if you guys were paying attention,

In reply to mike kann:

Top Roper is Sloper, although I suspect he is a member of Alford Abseilers.

In reply to Top Roper too: Git.

In reply to mike kann:
The point I'm trying to make is that climbers have placed stakes, pegs and bolts when it suits them. Climbers have polished climbs through overuse. And some groups of climbers hog routes and behave in a manner that annoys other crag users.

It's one thing to educate fellow climbers, because they (generally) appreciate what is best for the sport, but much of your argument with these people could be interpreted as "You can't do your sport here because it interferes with our sport". Far better to say - "doing X or Y will incur the wrath of the national park authority as well as climbers, have you considered going to this venue, following this code of conduct etc."

Also bear in the mind the maxim "least noise equals most success"

In reply to SteveSBlake:
Bristol University Extreme Sports club stayed at the NMC hut a few years ago when I was there. It rained a bit so they went for a walk around the lake. After we'd had a session full of beer they got the p@ss taken out of them a little "Was it extremely wet?" etc etc

In reply to Chris the Tall: Which is why I passed it on to the BMC.

In reply to The New NickB:

Has he got a new spell checker?

In reply to The New NickB:

What does Sloper mean ? I am certainly part of Alford Abseilers and happy to be a member of UKC supplying the alternative view for you.

In reply to mike kann:

And a jolly stern word they have had:

"Hi there,
I was browsing on UKClimbing.com and you seem to have caused quite a stir. The link in question is here
http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=267867
I have no idea what the facts are but abseiling is quite an emotive topic amongst climbers as you can see. Don’t take all the comments to heart but you may wish to speak for yourself.

Just thought I would let you know

Cheers
Jon Dittman
Secretary, NW Area Meeting, British Mountaineering Council"

In reply to John2: I make it 2 but that is a revelation that sloper is actually able to spell. Either that or his secretary typed it for him.

In reply to Top Roper:

I suspect you hail from Grantham, not Alford...everyone knows that East Lincs is virtually a communist state.

In reply to hutchm:

Ha ha ha, Communist? really ? ... no wonder I haven't felt at home over the last couple of years being out here on the coast!

In reply to hutchm:

We do have members from far affield though! as far south as Northampton, Sleaford, Boston and North up to Manchester

In reply to Top Roper:
Sloper that was brilliant, I swallowed that hook, line etc.
I didn't know you could do impersonations.

In reply to Hay:

I mind going on a course thingy and being taught how to abseil..oh i thought it was the dullest thing ever and only a way to get back down to do the good bit of climbing back up really.

Whatever floats yer boat and all that but , come on..not exactly a riveting experience really :-/

I felt like a fanny doing it but was something i had to learn..know how to and don't indulge much now .

In reply to mike kann:


Smile Mike it was funny, and even though it looked like we were irresponsible - we really did know what we were doing... lighten up, you seem a bit too tight and serious in life!

In reply to mike kann: If a bunch of climbers started hammering metal spikes into the top of stanage they would get their arses kicked well and truly, and rightly so !

The fact that so many climbers use these cliffs and we try our best to do as little damage as possible (including not abseiling with no need) and it shows in the generaly good condition of even very popular places like grit stone edges, all we need are bunch of tw*ts going and smacking the sh*t out of the place !!!!!

AAAARGGHHHHH !

Dave

In reply to Top Roper: OK. I'll Bite. Do actually want to identify yourself. I have and I'm not scared to reveal who I am, both via e-mail and here. If you look hard enough you can even find my address so you can hunt me down. So how about you lose the cloak.

In reply to mike kann:

Still dropping off the end of ropes ....

My first encounter with these people was a happy one at High Tor around 18- 20 years ago.

I was out with Dave Edwards or was It Dave Hassal it was a Dave (White hall days) weekend off ! and well we actually used the abseil rope to get back down, they kindly ticked 2 more descents off the sheet as we made our way back down to the bottom of the crag... saved us the walk off and meant we got another route in quickly....

As for abseiling down routes such as Curbar it is silly. The equally dumb act I once witnessed must be the squaddies I once saw abseiling down 'Thing on a Spring' at the Roaches - when Challenged the instructor replied no one can climb that its fair cop mate its avoiding the routes - nobody climbs on that bit of rock......

May be the Alford Abseilers should try the parliament house cave abseil on a flooding tide ... no stakes required just a painted chair ... no routes to damage there is there ...now...

In reply to Rob Hannah: At least I know how to spell "stakes" which is obviously more than you do!

In reply to mike kann:

These "Alford abseilers" should have the guts to face up to, and call themselves what they are: egotistical babies.

In reply to Gordon Stainforth: a little harsh... but I'd like to know why they needed to use stakes. Why didn't they use conventional gear? Surely they had the technical ability.I only have the op's description to go on of what they used, but I've always been quite laid back as far as what people want to do at a crag, be it top roping, soloing, abbing or dancing around naked, PROVIDING THEY DO NO LASTING DAMAGE. Climbers can be a little precious at times, and a wee bit possessive of what, after all, is someone elses property, but unneccessary stakes is like graffiti - the damage is still there long after they've gone home

Or am I rising to an elaborate claret inspired troll?

In reply to toad:

Good question. No-one could be such knobs......or could they?

Some of the best threads are the ones where you just can't work out whether they're for real (and who's for real).

jcm

In reply to johncoxmysteriously: I really really really wish I was trolling. The stakes were round bar about 3/4 inch round. All equalised with lost of them - to as they say spread the load.

In reply to mike kann: Lots. Not lost.

In reply to mike kann:

A Draconian side of me thinks that really these crags should be shut to climbers while this kind of nonsense is going on. Just to let people know that you don't piss about with such valuable pieces of rock architecture/classic climbing like this.

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

but the rock's there for everyone, not just climbers, and some might argue that even the act of climbing is polishing and eroding the rock...

I'm enjoying this thread though

In reply to fedster187:

Yes, you hit the nail right on the head!! To tie up a popular crag was sooo rude, we should have realised that you have the God given right to it as you lot are probably there every weekend. How dare we take new members there to train them on an unchallenging crag for one single day of the year. We really do appologise for enjoying our day.

In reply to mike kann: Oh I understand! Your real problem with the abseilers is that we all know how to have fun & enjoy ourselves! When we pay our annual membership to our club, we get thrown in for free a big bucket of laughter that we all dip in & out of before we go off to have fun! Whatever your choice of sport, actually enjoying it & expressing that makes the whole event a much more positive, uplifting & worthwhile experience. Just lighten up a little, start with a smile, it probably won't kill you & with a little practice you may even manage to break out into fits of laughter!! Go on, you can do it!

In reply to CJD:

Yup, huge problem. I just feel so angry that anybody can treat a place like this in this way.

In reply to mike kann:

No, I believe you. But some of the others on this thread can hardly be real, can they?

Although mind you one does meet the most amazing arseholes. People who ride motorbikes across country, and so forth.

jcm

In reply to Numptie Dumpty: Read my post in the first place would you? I have no problem with you abseiling. Even if was on a busy weekend you have just as much right as I do. What I have an extreme problem with is you hammering stakes into the ground when there was absolutely no need for it. I was quite prepared to overlook the fact that you were loud if it hadn't been for the other aspects of what you were doing there. Hammering stakes into what is a fragile area which is particularly susceptible to erosion is the act of someone who is thinking only of them selves. If you have been doing it for as long as you say you have, then could you please explain to me why you needed the stakes? I don't get it. And grow up and state your names - its pretty infantile to hide behind pseudonyms.

In reply to sammybear: Its good to know that your price for laughter is apprently more than the peak district edges.

In reply to mike kann:
Yes, I did read your original post and do understand some of your concerns. If you are so big and brave, why did you not discuss it with us on Sun, instead of hiding behind a PC? I am sticking with the name that your fellow climbers have given, don't want to give the impression that I am egotistic now, do I!! I did witness some very dangerous and thoughtless behaviour on your side of the camp, in which the old guy with the black hat on, and his young whipper snapper mate dropped their rope on a poor young chap (who thankfully had enough sense to wear a helmet, unlike the rest of you!) He was apalled, and who can blame him. You wouldn't catch us doing such stupid things!! We always have a member on ground safety but I guess you saw that for yourself hey?

In reply to Numptie Dumpty:

You're a dope, stop being so agressive. If you understand now that hammering stacks of stakes into the top of a cliff is a problem why not just not do it anymore, and if you already understood that why not use something else?

In reply to Numptie Dumpty: You still have not answered the question as to why you hammered stakes into the ground. I didn't approach you because I only found out about them late in the day and you were leaving as I got to the top. I have sent an e-mail directly to you - I don't think that this is hiding behind my computer. If you want my number to discuss it then I'd be happy to give it to you. As for other climbers actions I cannot comment as I wasn't there when this happened - I only saw what you had done.

Been chatting to the BMC's peak area access rep tonight

He wasn't aware of the incident, but his view is that the wholesale placing of stakes at an SSSI would incur the wrath of the National Park, English Nature and the landowners

So, if climbers do come across such acts of vandalism, please take photos

And if the abseilers have read this thread (i'm not convinced), please desist from such activities, or at least consult with and take advice from the relevant authorities before you hold such events.

In reply to Chris the Tall: "numpty dumpty" is for real. 100%. Although I wasn't around to witness the incident he describes, I did hear of it from the climbers concerned who were on Peapod. This doesn't change what they did.

In reply to Rob Hannah:


I prefer meat ones, especially pork...but on a toss up between steel stakes and titanium ones I'd go for titanium.

In reply to Mike Hartley: Dear god please let this be a troll.

In reply to Mike Hartley:


Is that due to weight or flavour?

In reply to davidbeynon: I am not Top Roper, in fact Mr Alderson at the climbing works can vouch for me being productively employed (i.e sponging a fag) when Top Roper contributed to this top troll.

In reply to mike kann: Hi Mike

Firstly, please let me apologise for ruining your day. I was one of those awful abseilers and it wasn't our intention to offend. The trouble with forums is that it's very easy to get into a slanging match which I don't want to do so lets be constructive for the good of both our activities. I've gone through and read all the posts and from a climbers point of view I have to agree to the perception of what people saw on the day.


It was a social / training event for us not a charity event and a lot of the apparent cock up's were preconceived for training purposes.

If I can address some of the replies

Accidents: We are very aware of the possiblility of a member of the public getting into difficulty and train accordingly ie ropes knotting, shunts locking,etc. ( Mike speak to the guy on Sunday who got hit by a rope (incidentally) thrown over by a climber.) and create scenarios accordingly, hence some of the apparent cockups.

First Aid: I have administered more First Aid in my employment than Charlie in " Casualty " and many of our members are Red Cross ' First Aid' Volunteers.

Ignorance: Absolutely agree !! Searched Web for abseiling, absolutely F**K all. Can Abseil in the South of France for a £1000 if I want . No standards, no procedures, no safe systems of work and no do's and don't. No nothing. Don't know about BMC guidelines as Abseiling not included.

We are an old club with a lot of new members with a history of 'we've always done it that way' mentality and that's the way we've been shown. Point me in the right direction as regards etiquitte, standards etc.

I'm quite willing to converse by email, phone etc if required.

Regards

Ps I'm the poor bastard that carried the Steaks and the 50 something old who didn't buy a motorbike ( seen to many accidents ) and needed an adrenaline rush and took up abseiling.

In reply to gazzan999: The Mountain Leader Training Board teach abseiling and setting up anchors (among other things) through the Single Pitch Award. There is a well established best practice for such situations. The Syllabus is here: http://www.mlte.org/content.php?nID=58 Here are the relevant sections, I hope that this is useful.

2.1.2 Anchors

Select suitable, sound anchors in a variety of situations including:
- spikes and blocks
- nuts and camming devices
- threads, chockstones and trees
- fixed equipment

2.1.4 Abseiling

• abseil without the use of a safety rope
• set up fixed and releasable abseils
• use a variety of different devices and methods competently and choose the most appropriate for a given situation
• solve common abseiling problems such as tangled ropes, inadvertent locking and pendulums
• choose an appropriate abseiling site with consideration for:
- ease of take off
- loose rock
- impact on the environment and the climbing resource
• demonstrate methods of safeguarding a novice abseiling

In reply to mike kann:

I hate abseiling, and avoid it if I possibly can.

It is dangerous and has resulted in the deaths of even well known and experienced climbers (Tom Patey). Twice in the past I have got into nasty situations which had the potential for death - once when the anchor failed (long story but my fault and when I was first starting out in climbing), and once when my clothing got badly jammed up in the figure of 8 - my own fault again.

It's a means to an end to get down when there is little or no alternative, but I dislike the way it has been hijacked into being a sport in its own right.

I know it should be a matter of each to their own but that's my own view. I won't sponser this sort of charity event (in the same way that I won't sponsor mass peak bagging charity events on environmental grounds).

In reply to Trangia:


Abseiling itself isn't dangerous (well, no more than toproping).

The abseiling that climbers do is relatively dangerous because its a usually a means of retreat. The climbers tend to be tired, the abseils are normally of the retrievable variety and anchors are sometimes less than ideal. And obviously abseiling multiple pitches has some extra complications around finding stances etc.

None of that affects abseiling as an <ahem> extreme sport <dude!> in its own right. I guess its a safe way for punters who would find even toproping a few diffs too challenging to experience a bit of exposure. (For "bit of exposure" read "extreme adrenalin rush doooooode!"

In reply to deepsoup: Apparently Yvon Chouinard was an abseiler (or would that be a rappeler in US speak) before taking up climbing

In reply to gazzan999: Thanks for replying a bit more maturely. Fistly let me say - it didn't ruin my day - just left a rather sour taste in my mouth at the end of it and made me feel angry about some other people having some fun. It very easy to get carried away with yourself when you're having a good time. Climbers regard abseiling rather dimly as you'll see from Trangia's comments above and for good reason - for us its an emergency technique, not the norm. Unfortunately some of the comments have been rather harsh so I apologise for that. It is good that you are training for the worst - I'd just suggest that a busy weekend at Curbar may not be the place for it!

Added to this, wearing your jumpers made it look very official, and people would have assumed as I did that either you were there with an instructor, or that it was a sponsored event - I'm sure you can understand that if this had been the case, it would have been most inappropriate for Numpty Dumpty and Sammy Bear to come hurtling earthwards, showing off and giving the impression that this is the way to abseil. Having abseiled off stuff that moves if you kick it hard enough makes you a little more cautious and it winds me up that people take abseiling so lightly.

As for the lack of guidelines I suggest that you pick up a copy of Libby Peters "How to rcok climb". This is a book written in conjunction with the Mountain Leader Training board, specifically for training instructors, both at the SPA and MIA level. This would outline how to use natural anchors without damage to the rock or surrounding ground - it might even encourage you to climb up rather than down and throw open your market a bit. Failing that a day of training with an MIA for your entire team would help you understand the more common ways to anchor ropes. As I have said above, I wasn't really that bothered about the noise other than finding it hard to concentrate when I really needed to - it was the stakes that disturbed me. Please please please don't do it again! That way you won't need to carry up the stakes in the first place! And if your going to use tree's use a flat sling and some padding, like a cut up karrimat. And have a look on the BMC RAD access database to see if there are any restrictions in place - for example sometimes there are birdbans on cliffs and you will ruffle the RSPB's feathers who are far more dogmatic than us climbers.

Anyway if you need any help let me know - I just wanted you to realise what it all looked like from an outsiders perspective...

Mike

In reply to sammybear:

Well, when you put it like that. My *unintentional* spelling misteak on the one hand, and your environmental damage and unconscionably dangerous behavior on the other… what was your point again?

In reply to Sam L:


As compared with the cars we drive there in or tracks we walk in on or the erroded crag base we leave behind. I struggle to see how 'we' get so hung up on how 'they' are worse than us. Try looking at our activities from an outside perspective.

Oh and that site simply has to be an elaborate windup.
jk

In reply to jkarran: To be fair, I also struggle to see why climbers leave litter, leave tat, leave crappy insitu gear, chop bolts and damage the rock, chip holds, over chalk, and always go to the same places polishing up the honey pot areas.
Sam

In reply to jkarran:


That's not too difficult: if I went to a golf course and dug a hole in the fairway so I could practice my putting, would other members be wrong to get annoyed when I told them they couldn't play through?

How about if I went to a tennis court and cut the net in half so that I could bounce a ball on the ground, telling other players that they'd all have to wait until i was done to play?

In reply to niggle:
Ah, but you do see the difference, surely...?

Golf course?
Tennis court?

In reply to gingerkate:

Not really - what do you see as the difference?

In reply to jkarran:

True. I was up near Goats Water on the 6th October. A very misty, claggy day. Someone was obviously climbing on Dow, (good on 'em), but unfortunately were having a constant 'WhoooHoooo!' 'Yeeeehah!' session. A few people out walking were looking concerned that it might be someone cragfast or similar. Because of the mist you couldn't see Dow, so I ended up having to have a quick wander over. Glad they were having fun, but I've never felt the need to do the constant gleeful howling thing whilst climbing. Would have been a bit unfortunate if the MRT got called out.

In reply to the Alford Abseilers:

If the people purporting to be from the Alford Abseilers are indeed from the Alford Abseilers, you are not alone in being criticized for your conduct if it is plainly disrespectful, serves to damage the environment, or may put people (including yourselves) at risk… Save for the latter, top-ropers receive much (albeit often undue) criticism on here for the same reasons; hence the title, “Alford Abseilers - ten times worse than top ropers?” If you take a look at any one of those debates – there are three I think going on at the moment – you will see how important these considerations are to climbers. However, climbers are not the only people who will be aggrieved by inconsiderate behavior. Anyone who truly enjoys the outdoors and wants to continue to do so should appreciate the consequences of their actions. A failure to do so is manifestly and gravely selfish and should be derided in the strongest possible terms. I am sure you would agree.

In reply to gazzan999:


Ohhh Gazzan..... I was having fun playing with these guys

In reply to Rob Hannah: end of the day there's nothig you can do about them abseiling wherever they want so get over it.

In reply to beastofackworth:

I didn't have a go at abseilers - just selfish people.

In reply to Numptie Dumpty:

Perhaps some of that training time might have included the real skills involved in conducting absails safely. For instance the apropreate selection and use of availible anchors. Hammering in large numbers of stakes, causing unnessercary damage, which are then removed causing yet more damage, leaving holes on the crag top, which will have caused yet more damage over this week, does not do this. Instead it teaches bad lazy practice, particularly to those absailing for the first time.

If I did not want to teach the selection of and placement of apropreate natural rock anchors I would choose a venue that did not require it either through the plentiful avalibility of trees (which can be used if treated sensitively) or because stakes were already in place. A quite section of gardoms edge for example.

That you were teaching in noway accounts for rank bad practice and technique, such as bouncing down the crag trying to get to the base in as few jumps as possible. I can think of no useful skill taught or purpose served by such behavior. Teaching people to set up and use safety rope systems to resolve problems such as stuck absail devices and jamed ropes can be done without the danger of actually simulating or trigering such problems. If you were teaching the far more advanced skills of resolving such problems autonomusly on a single line then yes you need to have a knot to pass or a jammed device to release. However the fact you have people designated as "safety officers" and as "ground safety" along with your obvious inability to set natural achors sugests that this was not the case. Also there are far safer and more controled environments to practice such skills than curbar edge.

These comments come from somebody who holds the required certifications to run such sessions as yours comercially. Over the next couple of months I will be teaching people to absail, I will do it without placing stakes and without many of the features you deam to be essential. This is because i will be teaching it as a tool for extracting themselves from a difficult situation while lossing the minimum of kit. Thus most of the precautions you take are not possible let alone apropreate.

To be frank the behavior discribed, your own website suggest that renaming your group the alford merchant bankers association would indicate the requirements of membership more accuratly. The comments you and other members of your group have posted here have done nothing to dispel this impression and much more to confirm it.

In reply to deepsoup:
Actually it is more dangourous than top roping. risk and danger are not the same thing. The risks are the same however while top roping testing the system is an incedent that can happen on say every 10th climb. while absailing the system is always tested. So higher rates of failure.

In reply to davidwright:

It happens every time, when you lower off at least, and will likely happen more often than when you're abseiling as you may fall off and in any case will simply be attached to the rope for longer. There's also that you're shocking the system if you fall, which you won't when abseiling. If the system is well set up (like with 20 stakes as in this example!) there's little/no danger of the anchor failing.

Abseiling can be good fun too in itself, though hardly an "extreme sport", different strokes for different folks.

In reply to thomasadixon:

Precisely thomasadixon, different strokes for different folks! I like that saying.... For climbers - abseiling 300Feet is not extreme, but for others who are not climber inclined , the thrill and feelings are extreme.

I've done the basic climbing day, and for me - Sky diving and competitive motor racing kicks the ass of the standard climbing experience..... different strokes for different folks.

Mind you... serious face climbing something like the Rockies or Grand Canyon - that's a totally different matter, something I'd undoubtedly pooh a brick about.

In reply to davidwright:

David, what you say is surely correct when speaking solely about teaching climbers to abseil to safety. But you look at everything from a climbers viewpoint.

There has been some very good comments about taking steps to reduce our impact on the crag to an absolute minimum - and on that I am totally in favour and will be pushing it hard with the club at our meeting next week. Everything else, is just elitist bigotry.

In reply to alford abseilers:

Guys, you messed up, you banged in stakes when there was no need, you seem to think wrapping up a tree in 10M of static rope is an acceptable way of rigging and you demonstrated bad practice to people keen to learn.
People are not having a go at you for abseiling, just the way you did it. And its not climbers having a go at abseilers because if i'd have seen the guys chucking a rope on someone else then i would have had a word with them as well.

Just be more sensitive in the future.

In reply to gazzan999:

and many of our members are Red Cross ' First Aid' Volunteers.
>

You know, I find that entirely unsurprising. I can see how the illusory risk of organised abseiling would appeal to those who spend their weekends playing at doctors.

In reply to all:
Bit bizarre how a third of the posts on this thread accuse them of doing something dangerous, a third sneer at them for doing something ridiculously safe, and a third somehow manage to do both in one paragraph :oS

In reply to gingerkate:
Ahem

I pointed out that, as climbers, we shouldn't be criticising the level of risk they choose.

I've also tried to point out that the only significant issue here is that the appear to have caused damage at an SSSI with their 20 odd stakes.

In reply to gingerkate:
And I pointed out that they might be fannies.
Have you seen the website?

In reply to Chris the Tall:
They were approximate thirds

I thought the reply from gazzan (?) was pretty good really ... no one likes to be ticked off, and seeing he'd just been very thoroughly ticked off, he took it well. They're obviously keen to learn what they need to do to be caring SSSI users, so the best thing would be if anyone who has any contact with them now just helps them inform themselves about how to set up good robust undamaging anchors. And also, if they are in touch with other abseiling groups, to ask them to try and spread the word.

In reply to gingerkate:

That would be because the final third come closest to the truth.

"as the play is only 5 minutes long it must be acounted short it being, by those 5 minutes, too long it must be accounted tedius"

There website makes it very clear that they regard absailing as the up and comming adrenalin activity (a lot of us grew out of this when we were 12....) hence the second 1/3. They then behave like a bunch of macho prats with very small manhoods making the inherently low risk activity as dangerous as possible hence the first 1/3. some see both parts of their activity hence the final 1/3....

In reply to nacnud:

Thanks. Will certainly take a look and act accordingly

In reply to mike kann: Hi Mike,

Thanks. The books on order. Believe it or not before all this kicked off I actually called in to Extreme at Castleford on Wednesday as I was working near Leeds. Back there next week for a taster sesion on their wall. Don't know what I'll achieve can just about climb the stairs.

Ignorance is no excuse and we will address all the issues levelled at us in the post. That windup website has served it's purpose.

Regards

Ps Your always welcome for a lift back down

In reply to Hay:
I've abseiled a few hard routes before, E1 and once an E2. I'm training now and hope to be abseiling E4 by the end of next year.

In reply to gazzan999: Tah - you're always welcome to a top rope up

In reply to Rob Hannah:

Guilty as charged!! In defence I can only say that a lot of us are new to the activity ( better not call it a sport ) and that's how we've been shown. Totally blinkered I'm afraid.

As I replied to Mike, I will bring this all up when we get to meet again and we will endeavour to use best practice.

Regards

In reply to gingerkate:

Why we do what we do. Speaking for myself and not on behalf of the club, I abseil for the social activity, not just the abseil. I don't believe that the way we abseil is dangerous if set up right. We don't do it for the test of skill, that you climbers spend hours mastering, we prefer the speed of dropping 300ft+, knowing we are going to land safely on the ground. I myself don't find it a challenge but many people do. I have seen the fear on some peoples faces, and the relief and pride when they land on solid ground. To help theses people achieve something is a fantastic reward for me.

In reply to gazzan999:
I can't believe it, the mountain goat has turned tail and run to the other side.. Won't be seeing you again then!! Ha ha ha.
Yes, I agree, Mr Chairman is Mr safe. After their training with Mike at Rock City, I guess our older members have been showing us the way they have been shown, and we do not think to question it. Maybe we should? I don't want to do more damage to the environment than necessary but still do not appreciate the tone or arrogance of certain individuals we have unfortunately met on this site. The amount of damage we must have seen to the rock faces over the years by climbers and top ropers is saddening but we do not need to rant at them, on their conscience be it.. BUT it is an ugly sight to see.

In reply to Numptie Dumpty:

Look, you idiot, climbers have been climbing these rocks for hundreds of years. If people had been bashing stakes in at the top and retrieving them for all that time think what a mess there'd be.

Why you have to abseil down popular climbing cliffs anyway is beyond me. It's not like there aren't hundreds of other places you could use.

jcm

In reply to davidwright:
...hence the second 1/3. They then behave like a bunch of macho prats with very small manhoods making the inherently low risk activity as dangerous as possible hence the first 1/3. some see both parts of their activity hence the final 1/3....

Those who brag the most and put down others - are usually the real fanny's. My girlfriends little jack russel has undoubtedly got a bigger lipstick than yours davidwrong ! ha ha ha

In reply to Ian McNeill:
>
>and well we actually used the abseil rope to get back down, they kindly ticked 2 more descents off the sheet as we made our way back down to the bottom of the crag... saved us the walk off and meant we got another route in quickly....
>We have let climbers use our ropes many times in the past, because we are usually very friendly, sociable and helpful beings. We have been known to help rescue fallen climbers,(yes, without causing them more damage before you all start with your comments) but we have never met such an unfriendly bunch before curbar, apart from the past 2 yrs at curbar!!If we were obviously offending or doing wrong, we would of appreciated a polite word from 1 of you, not a slagging off session on the net.

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

Oh right, sorry about that. Would you like us to leave them there on Sunday then? We don't mind others borrowing them, see we are not as selfish as you thought.

In reply to Numptie Dumpty:
>
Nah not just yet ! Can't really see me hanging off a cllff but my fingers, carrying to much ballast. But I am going to give it a try next week.

In reply to davidwright:

Can we make contact outside this forum. I don't know if moderators allow the giving out of email details but you could always email the site and leave a message for the goat and I'll get it.

Regards

In reply to gazzan999:

If you click on his name you can e-mail him, he'll know your e-mail address then.

In reply to Top Roper:

I'm not clever enough to be a windup merchant, you can keep your fishing line in the water for as long as you like. I'm bowing out as Numptie put it with my tail between my legs.

People will always have their own opinion which is always the right one of course, so you could be here for days.

The one thing that is a common theme here is the concern for the enviroment that we use. Lets not lose sight of Mike's original comment, we have been in a time warp and we have to look at the alternatives

See you whenever.

Happy leading, toproping , abseiling, moonwalking sidesteping or whatever floats your boat to you all

In reply to thomasadixon: Thanks, didn't realise that

In reply to gazzan999:

Just read through this thread and it raises a lot of interesting points.

To state my interests, first and foremost I am a climber and concerned about conserving our precious cliffs, secondly I am an SPA provider part of which is to imbue potential rock supervisors with the values of protecting the environment and crag ettiquette and courtesy and consideration for other crag users (as well as the nuts and bolts of the ropework techniques) and thirdly I run a lot of charity abseils. In fact Im just home from running one for a well known charity from an office towqer block in preston.

So what I guess Im saying is that I do have some strong, but considered views on this thread and can hopefully see all sides.

Despite the arrogance and exclusivity of some climbers who think the have an exclusiver and god given right to practice their sport on our crags you do have as much of a right to abseil there if you choose to do so. However - this comes with some strong caveats - with our freedom to use a crag comes a rersponsibility to that crag and to the other users.

It seems to me that the Alford Abseilers have let themselves down in at least 2 areas
1)The question of the stakes. Inexcusable - please please please book yourself onto a course to learn how to construct safe anchors using modern rock protection - reading Libby Peters book is a good start or book an instructor from www.ami.org.uk or check the link on this site here : http://www.ukclimbing.com/databases/listings/centres.html
alternatively you could utilise non climbing crags (check out SSSI / geology / wildlife issues first) or better still util;ise buildings, bridges, viaducts etc.

Dont know where you are based but a couple of great abseil locations are Hodge Close (may not be safe after the rockfall of a few years ago - but classic in its time)
Devils Gorge in Clywd (some "entrepreneur" has bought the rights to exclusive abseils there - but hey thats even more reason for us all to go and use it) and Millerdale Viaduct (permission needed)

2) You guys apparently made a lot of noise - true this can be also said of some climbing groups - but it dont make it right - people go to crags for quiet enjoyment and worse your noise could be potentially dangerous. If someone was leading near to you on a hard route way above gear and your noise caused them to loose their intense concentratiuon and fall and injure themselves, how would you guys feel. That being said, I must admit to the odd whoop of joy whenh I solve a particularly worrying crux move and I do occasionally go "Sh*t, sh*t, f*ck!!!" when I think I am going to fall off.

3) Please be aware that you may be abseiling down a classic rock route with maybe a hundred years of history behind it. "Good" climbers will clean and "squeak" their boots before ascending - respecting the rock and leaving minimum dirt and damage on the holds. An abseiler in walking boots, descending from the top of the crag and bounding down the crag in leaps(climbers tippy-toe down when abbing)will bring down mud and grit from the crag top on their boots and impact and abrade crucial holds on a climb possibly damaging that climb forever - please think about this.

Thankyou for your generally good natured acceptance of what has been said on this thread - one of the great things about UKC - it is always possible to learn something new.

On a tangent - I notice from your website that you are offering abseil services to charities - while this is commendable I would just like to point out a couple of issues. Firstly although a lot of people believe that you need "qualifications" to be an instructor, in Britain at least anyone can set themselves up to do this AFAIK. BUT do you have public liability insurance - this is absolutely essential and you have no mention of this on your website.

Anyway - goodluck with your abseiling fun - just choose appropriate venues and do have a bit of thought for the environment and for other crag users.

Cheers

David

In reply to David Hooper:
Thanks for the advice, nice to have someone talking to us in a helpful and polite manner. Yes we do have the insurance policies in place that we require-sets us back a few hundred a year! I didn't realise there could be such a bad atmosphere between climbers and abseilers, I thought we were all out to enjoy our day in the same places but doing different things. I realise our behaviour has brought out the worst in some individuals and we shall discuss all issues mentioned at our next meet on tue.
Thanks again.

In reply to Numptie Dumpty:

>I realise our behaviour has brought out the worst in some individuals

That's because you've behaved like knobs. That does tend to irritate people.

jcm

In reply to Numptie Dumpty:
OK yes I agree we all have the right to do as we wish on the cliffs of britian providing:

- We respect the ethics of damaging the crag environment as least as possible.
- natural protection which as far as possible is either removed with no noticeable (or extremely minimal per usage) affects on the environment, or as a last resort left in but place with as least permanent affects as possible, try and think what the place would look like if everyone behaved as you do!
- has less an impact as possible on other users on the same place, try not to ruin respected climbing routes by abseiling down them, this not only interferes with climbers but ruins the climb by polishing it rapidly.

I personally have had rock knocked down on me at avon gorge by every member of a set of abseilers that went down whilst I was on an established multi-pitch rock climb. The abseilers were not aware that they were legally liable for rock the knocked off the cliff on to people below them. There was no sign that the abseilers were going about there business when we set off on the established climb.

please try and consider these points in future.

In reply to mike kann: Fisrtyl I am slightly pissed. Secondlyu I think the Alfords habvereceived the msseage. They are actually it seems quite nice normal people. Not sad f*ckers like most of you seem to say despite having not been there or met them. Yes I was highly pissed off initaslly but I regret raising this whole issue on hrer. tHERE has now been seversal thousand hits on this thread - and a large amount of abuse aimed at people who apparently didn't know better. I think it really is time we stopped the witch hunt! Jon Cox Mysteriously behave yourself - I expect they don't understand your ethics and crikey can we just have some encouraging messages rather than just making them think we're all elitest cock suckers who are so far up their own self righteous arses that we can't see the real perspective... Alford abseilers - please e-mail me and I'd be more than happy to help you iron out any potential nuggets of difficultiness in your systems... WQe could make a weekend of it and perhaps even have tea and sconesafterlike...

In reply to mike kann: yes, all this name-calling is appalling. Surely this could be settled in a civilised common sense manner the traditional British way. With a good old-fashioned scrap in the Outside carpark. 20 mouthy UKC rockjocks vs 20 hardened thousand yard stare abseilers (no gouging, no blades, no figures of eight). I'm afraid I've got a sore finger at the moment and will have to stay on the side line - but I'll gladly hold Tom's jacket for him and shout encouragement

In reply to mike kann:

Is anyone else here reminded of the "Rough Ramblers" from Spaced?

In reply to mike kann:
Thanks for that, I hope you still feel the same when sober, maybe some of the other climbers could do with a few beers to mellow their attitudes.

In reply to mike kann:
>I would suggest you look at some of the sandstone crags south of London for evidence of this if I didn’t think you’d try to abseil on them.

brilliant

In reply to Numptie Dumpty: Have been sober for quite few hours now and still feel the same. UKC does tend to get carried away...

In reply to mike kann:

So do I. I've no time for people who don't respect their environment in the wider sense, and that means not only people who are so pig-ignorant as to drive abseil stakes in and out, but also people who abseil down the Eliminates wall making a racket about it, and can't see why they shouldn't.

jcm

In reply to johncoxmysteriously: I don't think shouting at them and calling them pig ignorant is going to help though do you? Helping them understand why you're pissed off will though and hopefully will help prevent it from ever happening again. As I said in my drunk as a skunk state - I think they have got the message - have had an e-mail regarding tea and scones and hope to do something about it.

In reply to mike kann:


Ignore Numpty and Top Roper, Mike. They are ficticious identities set up by a well known mischief maker at UKC. They are both now banned.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

Well come on then Mick, name and shame! As I said at the beginning the best threads are usually those where no-one knows quite who is who, but it's nice to be told in the end.

jcm

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

PS

My money's on you, Mick.

jcm

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: OK I will. Evil little trolls. Should hammer a stake through their hearts...

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

Name an shame them.

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

In that case, don't ever gamble!!!

In reply to Norrie Muir:
Well we know Top Roper is Sloper, yes? So that means Numpty was Sloper too.

In reply to gingerkate: No we don't because Numpty Dumpty must have been there - his detail about the top roping guy in the black hat was too accurate...

In reply to mike kann:

Good. Well done. (At least, that's assuming teh email was from the guy posting as gazzan, not one of the people trolling. Suggesting tea and scones does sound a bit Sloperesque...)

In reply to mike kann:
Oooh. But maybe Sloper was there? You weren't the only climber at the crag?

In reply to mike kann:
ps We know Numpty=Top Roper because if you read Mick's post he's talking in the singular: one culprit.

In reply to gingerkate: Yes but remember there were multiple Alford Abseilers, some of whom were married or partners. One called Numpty, one called Sammy Bear... It was Gazzan who's contacted me... I don't believe Sloper is involved as far as Numpty is concerned...

In reply to gingerkate: Top roper isn't Sloper...all his posts come from a 88-107 ip address.

Has this thread the highest ratio of number of views to posts made?

In reply to mike kann:
Look, we know Top Roper = Sloper, because Top Roper's first post wasn't as a registered user, so we got the address thingie flashed up, and it was the one that's _always_ associated with Sloper.

And Mick has said Numpty = Top Roper, or as good as said it, by using teh singular.

So it has to be Numpty=Sloper.

The only way that can be wrong is if someone else had that same Sloper address thingie. Eg if Sloper lent another naughty person his laptop...

In reply to Papillon:

by - Top Roper on - 24 Oct 2007 - 88-109-210-47.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com

That's sloper's ip isn't it? I thought it was.

In reply to Rob Hannah:

No.

In reply to gingerkate: Right - has anybody got a photo of sloper - he might have been there! But the only way that Numpty is Sloper is if Sloper was actually there! The old guy in the black hat chucking a rope down on two guys on Peapod is ABSOLUTELY SPOT ON. The message might just be from someone who uses the same web provider...

In reply to Norrie Muir:

There's no point in beating around the bush

In reply to mike kann:
Hmmm, Papillon says it's a different IP. I just go off this bit of it:
dynamic.dsl.as9105.com

taking no notice of the rest, so maybe Papillon is right.

In reply to gingerkate: Just had a look at some pics - I can't remeber seeing him there... so I doubt it...

In reply to mike kann:
Then check out the profiles of Darren Jackson and John Rushby if you don't already know them, and see if either was there. They'd be my prime suspects. They've done joint effort trolling before now, too.

In reply to gingerkate: Nope. Not them either. Have we checked that Top Roper who did the original top roper is the same as the registered top roper?

In reply to gingerkate:

I may have been mistaken:

Sloper's usual IP is 88-107-108-113.dynamic.dsl.as.9105.com

Top Roper's IP is 88-109-210-47.dynamic.dsl.as.9105.com

Check out their so called web site and check out the picture on the first page entitled "Just a little bit of concern and fear shown"

1 Why is the red sling larks footed to the rope and why all the twists ?
2 Why is the black rope ( presumably the abseil rope ) going round the tree at a strange angle. Could they not of configured a better load direction for this ?
3 It looks to me that they are using a static rope for the safety rope also and the Italian Hitch should be the other way around so the live and dead ropes will not become crossed.
4 Whats with the big industrial gloves used by the belayer ?
5 The safety rope should be tied in to the harness and not clipped in, also there is no weight transfer to the leg loops - where is the belay loop or mallion ?

No wonder the poor girl has that look on her face.

Someone should help these guys out with a few tips before they hurt one of their members

North Wales based MIA

In reply to captain dringo: I'm on it...

In reply to captain dringo:

The sooner they hurt one of their members the better.

jcm

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

I thought there was some clever website that enabled you to match IP addresses to organisations? Charles Arthur sent it to me years ago.

jcm

In reply to johncoxmysteriously: Do you actually mean that or are you just spouting vitriol?

In reply to captain dringo:

Its a safty anchor for the guy talking her down and the twists are just bad set up, though if he has been going up and down I can see it happening.


all they need to do is throw it the other side of that tree....


With the live rope on the left and the dead on the right, which is more or less required if she stands there then the ropes will cross, however if she swaped her hands, the rope would run fine.


protecting her from the rope burns she won't get if she does her job properly , mind you they all seem to be using them so the obviously expect to descend barely in control...


Be fair to them the harnes is suitable for the job and is being used correctly. I would have expected an MIA to recognise an old style DMM harness and know where the single tie in point on one was......

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

http://www.ripe.net/whois

In reply to captain dringo:
Linky: Linky: http://abseiling.200blogs.co.uk/wp-content/gallery/high-tor-07/high-tor-5.j...

Static rope is ok for top-roping though, innit? Don't see any thing wrong with the choice of rope for the 'safety'. While not ideal, a karabiner is also ok for toproping innit? If its tied onto the end of the 'safety' rope with a barrel knot, and hopefully its better than it looks (cos it doesn't look too good to me), there's not much chance of the 'biner being cross loaded. Those steel DMM screwgates are absurdly strong anyhow.

Don't see what you mean about the harnesses and 'weight transfer to the leg loops' - those harnesses are designed that way, with a simple horizontal belay loop on the waist belt, they're ok.

As for the other points, yup: "Because the 'safety officer' is a muppet" would be my guess. Certainly wouldn't inspire much confidence in me, but I bet the 'poor girl' thinks he knows what he's doing. I'm sure he thinks so too. :o/

In reply to davidwright:

Fair comment about the harness. Most places have stopped using this type. Still feel the safety rope would be better tied in though, one less gate in the system.

How about picture page 2 - photo 3. Is this a new releasable system I havn't heard about ?? or should they have put a few more turns around the tree. Ok we cant see all the tree but it looks sort of dead to me.

I guess that I am just making a point that if we can see all these small errors from two photos then how much would a day spent with them reveal.

In reply to captain dringo:

Fair point I may join them for a day "on the edge" so to speak !

In reply to Nath-is-a-legend: Congratulations to all involved.

Sloper.

In reply to Nath-is-a-legend:

This is what this thread needs - a mole. Any volunteers to email these people and join them for a wild fun day out? Followed by a TR, of course.

jcm

In reply to captain dringo:

Well all the rigging seems to be done on a more rope=safer principle.

Given that they are using cows tails how about clipping them to the close anchors and getting rid of the slings?

They also seem to have rigged two anchor systems for the absail rope and the safety so why is the belayer cliped into the absail system when she is controling the safety rope?

They don't seem to be thinking about why they are doing things this way...

In reply to davidwright:


I suspect that is the reason for the larks foot, they ran out of Krabs...

Independant system is good, lets give them credit for that at least. Releasable would be even better. Then she should of course be clipped into the safety rope system.



The chances are they have never been shown another way and so are blissfully un aware that one exists.

Thanks for that, nice to see you are a mature, forgiving, helpful individual, obviously intelligent too!! We will take on board all your constructive criticism, Thanks once again..

In reply to gingerkate:

Hi Guys, nowadays a lot of ADSL connections are dynamic - which means that the providers server allocates an IP address each time the local router reboots. So an IP address is only traceable if you have the providers records.

Regards - Top Roper.... who is certainly not Sloper!


ps.>> I don't think just Kicking Me and Numptie off your Forum on some made up idea that we are ficticious was fair! thats just silly - you didn't even send me an email to my registered email address. We have not broken any of your TC's of the Forum and not even swore or been nasty to any of your members! - not something you could be proud about regarding some of your full members !!!!!!

In reply to Cliff Jumper:

Is that Cliff Jumper, as in the kind of attire the renounded singer Cliff Richards would wear for a video shoot for his Christmas songs; it would be quite apt, as your post is equally as dire.

In reply to Cliff Jumper:

Oh... and hiding anybodies true MAC address is a piece of cake. The only MAC address you capture is the firewalled router which could easily have hundreds of users sitting behind it.

Talking about Cake, yes I would like to have tea and cake with you Mike sometime... you can contact me through my lovely girlfriend Numptie if you wish or Gazzan! I think the more professional of you lot are alright.

In reply to Cliff Jumper:
I think the more professional of you lot are alright.

Well for those you consider to be "more professional" your approval must be akin to receiving an OBE.

In reply to Rob Hannah:

Oh your funny! Yes, how did you guess - I love Jumpers! The best ones were out of that Robbie Williams and Nicole Kidman music video! Do you want me to keep a look out for one for you Honey Hannah ?

In reply to Cliffs Red Jumper:

Honey Hannah ?

Ey?

In reply to Cliff Jumper:
Ok, you're not Sloper... then I reckon you're from the same stable as Crimper ... as it's impossible to believe there's another poster who can so adeptly shapeshift. Nice one.

No wonder the poor girl has that look on her face.

~Well that was my first abseil after coming from the 30ft quarry wall, no wonder I had that look on my face! I was absolutely terrified!! Heights are not really my kind of thing & dangling off a cliff was certainly not top of my list of things to do.However, I found myself 200ft up, about to clamber over the edge, scared to death but I managed it. I did the drop 3times & felt incredibly proud of my achievement.

I think the abseilers & climbers could learn from each other rather than sniping & using snide comments. If there was to be a ban on using this country's great facilities then we would all suffer & be forced to go abroad to pursue our different but related hobbies. Sharing enthusiasm & a love for the great outdoors is a common bond that should be strengthened rather than ignored.

In reply to gingerkate: Indeed the troll seems to be IT literate, which I most certainly am not.

In reply to David Hooper:
Hi thanks for your help, will talk to the others and show them the information you have given..

Cheers, Cowgirl AKA Numptie Dumpty (but I got kicked off!!)

In reply to Cowgirl: No probs - just contact me if you need any advice

There's been an awful lot of pots calling the kettle black on this thread!


As has been previously stated, we all have different ways of enjoying ourselves in the country, and no one group has ethical or historial 'rights' to being the only ones out there. Why should everyone else be condemned to viaducts, quarries, buildings, etc? Sure, there are environmental considerations, and I'm pleased (and surprised, considering the abuse that was flying about!) that the abseilers managed to pick out the gold from the dross and respond accordingly, and perhaps be able to improve their practice and therefore their experience.

People abseil (and top rope) for various reasons, and they are all valid, you know, even if the methodolgy isn't your personal thang.

On the down side, gosh, hasn't RT shown itslef up as a bunch of elitisht prats, once again?!

great thread, lots to be drawn from from it, and a fab bunfight to boot. A classic....

Sxx