This topic has been archived, and won't accept reply postings.
On November 20, a climber abseiled off the end of her rope whilst descending the Royal Arches in Yosemite, she fell over one hundred feet, and lived to report back to us what went wrong.
"There was an almost ledge just below the anchor, and I sort of felt like I could stick it or something. I don't...
Read more at http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/
"There was an almost ledge just below the anchor, and I sort of felt like I could stick it or something. I don't...
Read more at http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/
In reply to Mick Ryan - Editor - UKC:
There are a few things I don't understand, if someone could help, I would be grateful.
- "my request for him to prussik off the ropes so they cannot run through, enabling me to go onto just red". How is that done exactly?
- What's a bachman?
- "it's so much easier to create as you clip through the gate of the beaner for your wraps". What does she mean?
- What's a purcell prussik?
There are a few things I don't understand, if someone could help, I would be grateful.
- "my request for him to prussik off the ropes so they cannot run through, enabling me to go onto just red". How is that done exactly?
- What's a bachman?
- "it's so much easier to create as you clip through the gate of the beaner for your wraps". What does she mean?
- What's a purcell prussik?
In reply to Sandrine:
1. I'm guessing attaching prusik knot(s) at the top of the ab ropes to take a downward pull - preventing them pulling through.
2. A bachman knot is a variant on a prusik where a krab is incorporated by wrapping the sling round both krab spine and rope.
3. See 2!
4. Not a clue - but it would appear to be a type of 'sling' as she used it for extending the system.
1. I'm guessing attaching prusik knot(s) at the top of the ab ropes to take a downward pull - preventing them pulling through.
2. A bachman knot is a variant on a prusik where a krab is incorporated by wrapping the sling round both krab spine and rope.
3. See 2!
4. Not a clue - but it would appear to be a type of 'sling' as she used it for extending the system.
In reply to Adam Moroz: There have been a fair few famous climbers that have learnt to 'put a knot in it' after abbing off the end of a rope.
In reply to Glyn Jones:
I must admit ive got stuck on the knot on the end of my ropes a couple of times.....
I must admit ive got stuck on the knot on the end of my ropes a couple of times.....
In reply to Mick Ryan - Editor - UKC:
That's terrible, poor lass.
Best wishes for a speedy recovery!
That's terrible, poor lass.
Best wishes for a speedy recovery!
In reply to Adam Moroz:
You don't say.
> (In reply to Mick Ryan - Editor - UKC)
>
> That'll learn her to tie a knot in the end of her rope.....
>
> That'll learn her to tie a knot in the end of her rope.....
You don't say.
In reply to Sandrine:
One of three brothers - Randy, Tim and Rob Bachman - who, along with Fred Turner, formed Bachman Turner Overdrive and produced classics like "You Ain't Seen Nothing Yet'.
Not sure why you'd want to take one climbing, though...
> - What's a bachman?
One of three brothers - Randy, Tim and Rob Bachman - who, along with Fred Turner, formed Bachman Turner Overdrive and produced classics like "You Ain't Seen Nothing Yet'.
Not sure why you'd want to take one climbing, though...
In reply to Andy Say:
Thanks for taking the time to explain. One more thing: The two ropes are attached together at the top of the climb and passing through a rap stance. So the knot is preventing them from pulling through if you pull on the "right rope" of course. Or does she mean they could freely slide either way?
If he had heard what she was asking for, I understand the ropes would not have slid either way, but she was still in a dire situation. I don't really understand what the benefit is?
Thanks for taking the time to explain. One more thing: The two ropes are attached together at the top of the climb and passing through a rap stance. So the knot is preventing them from pulling through if you pull on the "right rope" of course. Or does she mean they could freely slide either way?
If he had heard what she was asking for, I understand the ropes would not have slid either way, but she was still in a dire situation. I don't really understand what the benefit is?
In reply to Sandrine:
Guess it depends on a few things; one of which is could she remember which side of the anchors the knot was!
But since her solution was to extend one rope to allow her to descend on the other the joining knot must have been on the side that was coming down to her rather than on the side that was going up I would assume. The solution she chose only works, of course, if the ropes are NOT locked off at the top. Another possibility of course would be for the guy at the top to use a prusik at the top to control a gradual lower but I don't think that was intended.
Guess it depends on a few things; one of which is could she remember which side of the anchors the knot was!
But since her solution was to extend one rope to allow her to descend on the other the joining knot must have been on the side that was coming down to her rather than on the side that was going up I would assume. The solution she chose only works, of course, if the ropes are NOT locked off at the top. Another possibility of course would be for the guy at the top to use a prusik at the top to control a gradual lower but I don't think that was intended.
In reply to Sandrine: A Bachman
http://www.climerware.com/rap1.shtml
Here it is again with a few alternatives
http://www.chockstone.org/TechTips/prusik.htm
http://www.climerware.com/rap1.shtml
Here it is again with a few alternatives
http://www.chockstone.org/TechTips/prusik.htm
In reply to Sandrine:
A Purcell prusik is a type of prussik that has shock absorbing properties. Lots of testing done on these showing that they are very strong and will slip before damaging the rope.
I will put a picture of one up in a few minutes - easier than explaining.
Later,
Bill
A Purcell prusik is a type of prussik that has shock absorbing properties. Lots of testing done on these showing that they are very strong and will slip before damaging the rope.
I will put a picture of one up in a few minutes - easier than explaining.
Later,
Bill
In reply to Mick Ryan - Editor - UKC:
I have confess it's the only route that I've abseiled off the ends of my rope! Fortunately it was the last pitch and I was only about 20 ft off the ground so I just bounced down the chimney.
It's one of those few long routes in Yosemite where the decent is far more problematic than the ascent and it's not infrequent for climbers to get benighted on the decent as well.
I have confess it's the only route that I've abseiled off the ends of my rope! Fortunately it was the last pitch and I was only about 20 ft off the ground so I just bounced down the chimney.
It's one of those few long routes in Yosemite where the decent is far more problematic than the ascent and it's not infrequent for climbers to get benighted on the decent as well.
In reply to bill strachan: Here are a couple of pics. Not too great at explaining - hope they are ok.
http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=16144&l=b1eda&id=567137197
They are often used in verticle rescue senarios where the rescuer want to protect himself from the edge - and then in place of a shunt during an absiel.
Bill
http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=16144&l=b1eda&id=567137197
They are often used in verticle rescue senarios where the rescuer want to protect himself from the edge - and then in place of a shunt during an absiel.
Bill
In reply to bill strachan:
Thanks for that - I have to admit to still being confused as to exactly what it gains beyond a normal klemheist !
Thanks for that - I have to admit to still being confused as to exactly what it gains beyond a normal klemheist !
In reply to GrahamD:
The shock absorption is the main difference. The "3 on 2" slips acting like a mini screamer.
Anyway - hope it helped a little.
Bill
> (In reply to bill strachan)
> I have to admit to still being confused as to exactly what it gains beyond a normal klemheist !
The shock absorption is the main difference. The "3 on 2" slips acting like a mini screamer.
Anyway - hope it helped a little.
Bill
In reply to Mick Ryan - Editor - UKC: Good to see so much sympathy being displayed by some correspondents on here!
In reply to Mick Ryan - Editor - UKC:
Seem to remember a similar story a few years back about a guy falling 100ft (possibly more) on Malham and surviving. Think he was abbing the whole way down on 2 ropes tied together, got to the knot and tried to pass it without tying himself off - just hanging off the rope by one arm and trying to change ropes with the other hand.
Anyone else remember that ?
Seem to remember a similar story a few years back about a guy falling 100ft (possibly more) on Malham and surviving. Think he was abbing the whole way down on 2 ropes tied together, got to the knot and tried to pass it without tying himself off - just hanging off the rope by one arm and trying to change ropes with the other hand.
Anyone else remember that ?
In reply to A female Senior Social Worker:
this is UKC! it's not about sympathy, it's about accuracy, or, to be more precise, pedantry!
this is UKC! it's not about sympathy, it's about accuracy, or, to be more precise, pedantry!
In reply to CJD: Now you're just being pedantic.
In reply to Chris the Tall:
There is, of course the tale of the two climbers aiding Cave Route at gordale in the dim and distant past who exhibited the full range of yorkshire pluck and intelligence. Night fell whilst they were on route so they reckoned that their rope, doubled, would nearly reach the deck from the stance - even if it didn't quite it would be pretty close. First guy abs off into the dark and reaches the end of the rope in the darkness. Reassuring himself about the maths he dropped off the end to hit the rocks about 10 feet below him and break an ankle.
He shouts up 'safe'.
Five minutes later a body comes whistling out of the night to smack into the rocks next to him. Also breaking an ankle.
I was told it was true but cannot vouch for it myself!
There is, of course the tale of the two climbers aiding Cave Route at gordale in the dim and distant past who exhibited the full range of yorkshire pluck and intelligence. Night fell whilst they were on route so they reckoned that their rope, doubled, would nearly reach the deck from the stance - even if it didn't quite it would be pretty close. First guy abs off into the dark and reaches the end of the rope in the darkness. Reassuring himself about the maths he dropped off the end to hit the rocks about 10 feet below him and break an ankle.
He shouts up 'safe'.
Five minutes later a body comes whistling out of the night to smack into the rocks next to him. Also breaking an ankle.
I was told it was true but cannot vouch for it myself!
In reply to Chris the Tall:
I wasn't there that day, but apparently he somehow ended up hanging by 2 prussik loops around his wrists, and then fell - tumbling through the rope which slowed him, but also gave him serious burns.
A couple of of months ago I saw 2 idiots ab off the top of the cove. They abbed to the left of the normal ab point, and so abbed down loose ledges around Caveat. They came down too fast showing off, and one lost control of the abseil at about 12' and landed flat on his back in the beck. We probably should have been more sympathetic instead of pissing ourselves.
> (In reply to Mick Ryan - Editor - UKC)
> Seem to remember a similar story a few years back about a guy falling 100ft (possibly more) on Malham and surviving. Think he was abbing the whole way down on 2 ropes tied together, got to the knot and tried to pass it without tying himself off - just hanging off the rope by one arm and trying to change ropes with the other hand.
>
> Anyone else remember that ?
> Seem to remember a similar story a few years back about a guy falling 100ft (possibly more) on Malham and surviving. Think he was abbing the whole way down on 2 ropes tied together, got to the knot and tried to pass it without tying himself off - just hanging off the rope by one arm and trying to change ropes with the other hand.
>
> Anyone else remember that ?
I wasn't there that day, but apparently he somehow ended up hanging by 2 prussik loops around his wrists, and then fell - tumbling through the rope which slowed him, but also gave him serious burns.
A couple of of months ago I saw 2 idiots ab off the top of the cove. They abbed to the left of the normal ab point, and so abbed down loose ledges around Caveat. They came down too fast showing off, and one lost control of the abseil at about 12' and landed flat on his back in the beck. We probably should have been more sympathetic instead of pissing ourselves.
In reply to bill strachan:
Purcell Prussics can be used by the 'barrowboy' who accompanies stretcher and casualty on steep or vertical ground; the fact that they are of adjustable length allows the attendant some room for manouevre while sorting the casualty.
Purcell Prussics can be used by the 'barrowboy' who accompanies stretcher and casualty on steep or vertical ground; the fact that they are of adjustable length allows the attendant some room for manouevre while sorting the casualty.
In reply to Andy Say:
That was Shagger and Webby, one of them had to crawl to the farm on hands and knees to get help.
> (In reply to Chris the Tall)
That was Shagger and Webby, one of them had to crawl to the farm on hands and knees to get help.
In reply to Al Evans:
Hurrah! I knew it was true. Cheers.
Hurrah! I knew it was true. Cheers.
In reply to Andy Say:
Yes, always useful that one, if only to retrieve the ropes once on safe ground!
Yes that's why I thought it was weird.
>Another possibility of course would be for the guy at the top to use a prusik at the top to control a gradual lower but I don't think that was intended.>
Hmm, even if he hears her well, it still is a complicated/unsafe setup?
Could she not make a knot just below her belay device on at least one rope and attach that to her harness. Then, pull the ends of the ropes up and tie a knot at their ends. At least that gives a bit of breathing space and maybe the opportunity to land on the ledge to think properly about what to do next?
With no knot at the end of her ropes and no prussik with her (which is the procedure I have learnt in books), what should have she done in the situation?
> (In reply to Sandrine)
> Guess it depends on a few things; one of which is could she remember which side of the anchors the knot was!
> Guess it depends on a few things; one of which is could she remember which side of the anchors the knot was!
Yes, always useful that one, if only to retrieve the ropes once on safe ground!
>
> The solution she chose only works, of course, if the ropes are NOT locked off at the top.
> The solution she chose only works, of course, if the ropes are NOT locked off at the top.
Yes that's why I thought it was weird.
>Another possibility of course would be for the guy at the top to use a prusik at the top to control a gradual lower but I don't think that was intended.>
Hmm, even if he hears her well, it still is a complicated/unsafe setup?
Could she not make a knot just below her belay device on at least one rope and attach that to her harness. Then, pull the ends of the ropes up and tie a knot at their ends. At least that gives a bit of breathing space and maybe the opportunity to land on the ledge to think properly about what to do next?
With no knot at the end of her ropes and no prussik with her (which is the procedure I have learnt in books), what should have she done in the situation?
In reply to bill strachan:
Thanks for that. I will need to play on my sofa with little bits of rope to understand it properly.
Thanks for that. I will need to play on my sofa with little bits of rope to understand it properly.
In reply to Tom Randall - Lattice Training:
I nearly had a messy mishap on the top (descent) pitch of the Royal Arches. Not a place to be rushing! jk
I nearly had a messy mishap on the top (descent) pitch of the Royal Arches. Not a place to be rushing! jk
In reply to Sandrine:
The idea of stopping to evaluate the situation rather than launching into a rapid 'solution' is always good! And tying off the ropes is a good idea.
The only solution I can envisage without outside assistance is to go back up the rope for a way than feed one rope up until that end is near you. Fasten both ropes together (oppositional prusiks would do that) then go down the single rope to the anchors. Then try to work out what to tell your partner as they come down the ropes.
Best solution? Go all the way back up and find the right anchors!
The idea of stopping to evaluate the situation rather than launching into a rapid 'solution' is always good! And tying off the ropes is a good idea.
The only solution I can envisage without outside assistance is to go back up the rope for a way than feed one rope up until that end is near you. Fasten both ropes together (oppositional prusiks would do that) then go down the single rope to the anchors. Then try to work out what to tell your partner as they come down the ropes.
Best solution? Go all the way back up and find the right anchors!
In reply to Mick Ryan - Editor - UKC:
Is she distantly related to Al Harris? He was always falling 100ft off things and surviving.
Is she distantly related to Al Harris? He was always falling 100ft off things and surviving.
In reply to Andy Say:
I have read her account again and I still don't understand what she was trying to do. I am still too much of a beginner I guess.
She says she has no prusik cord on her harness but she then use a Bachman and a purcell prusik. Surely those can be adapted to go up? Or at least secure the ropes below her belay device and to her harness which would allow her to knot the end of the ropes safely?
I have read her account again and I still don't understand what she was trying to do. I am still too much of a beginner I guess.
She says she has no prusik cord on her harness but she then use a Bachman and a purcell prusik. Surely those can be adapted to go up? Or at least secure the ropes below her belay device and to her harness which would allow her to knot the end of the ropes safely?
and I sort of felt like I could stick it or something. I don't...
Don't think ill be following that way of thinking! lol
(Will be making sure i take necessary equipment regardless in future)
>
Don't think ill be following that way of thinking! lol
(Will be making sure i take necessary equipment regardless in future)
In reply to Mick Ryan - Editor - UKC:
Hmmmmm. Im dubious on the newsworthyness of 100ft. Didnt someone bin off the top of a route at Cloggy while they were soloing and crawl back down to the car before passing out?
Hmmmmm. Im dubious on the newsworthyness of 100ft. Didnt someone bin off the top of a route at Cloggy while they were soloing and crawl back down to the car before passing out?
In reply to Will Hunt:
No. That was off the Mot (Black Spring I think) with a crawl down to Pont y Cromlech - and not off the top.
It did occasion the saying 'F**k me! He even soloes his own rescues!'
No. That was off the Mot (Black Spring I think) with a crawl down to Pont y Cromlech - and not off the top.
It did occasion the saying 'F**k me! He even soloes his own rescues!'
In reply to Will Hunt: I'd say its pretty remarkable. I'd expect to be dead from 100ft fall anyway.
But I think most merit in this story goes to the accounts from those involved detailing their mistakes with the aim of others not making the same ones.
But I think most merit in this story goes to the accounts from those involved detailing their mistakes with the aim of others not making the same ones.
In reply to Sandrine:
My reading of this is that she had no prusik slings on her harness so assumed that she 'couldn't' prusik back up. That decision made she then improvised a prusik (using the bachman) out of a sling she had on her! She also had the 'purcell prusik' on her, and I'm guessing that this was being used by the climbers as a cows tail to attach to anchors on the descent (common use of this system is as an adjustable lanyard in rigging for rescue situations), so she used that to extend the sling. She also had other gear on her as she says that she was trying to get another runner off to attach to the anchors. Towards the end there clearly was not enough rope to tie off the ends.
I can remember being lowered off a sports route once where the rope was way too short and we finished up clipping three long slings to the end of the rope as it left my belayer; I then took over that rope and managed to lower myself to a good ledge a few meters up the route - same sort of scenario but much nearer the ground!
My reading of this is that she had no prusik slings on her harness so assumed that she 'couldn't' prusik back up. That decision made she then improvised a prusik (using the bachman) out of a sling she had on her! She also had the 'purcell prusik' on her, and I'm guessing that this was being used by the climbers as a cows tail to attach to anchors on the descent (common use of this system is as an adjustable lanyard in rigging for rescue situations), so she used that to extend the sling. She also had other gear on her as she says that she was trying to get another runner off to attach to the anchors. Towards the end there clearly was not enough rope to tie off the ends.
I can remember being lowered off a sports route once where the rope was way too short and we finished up clipping three long slings to the end of the rope as it left my belayer; I then took over that rope and managed to lower myself to a good ledge a few meters up the route - same sort of scenario but much nearer the ground!
what struck me yet again is the old quotation; "England and America are two nations divided by a common languange". Could hardly understand her supposedly "clear" account of the accident.
who is Doug?
who is Doug?
In reply to Serpico:
lol i was there when the guy abbed off at malham and landed on his back in the river. so harsh but i remember everyone there was pissing themselves!
He got up after 5 mins and hobbled away slowly.
lol i was there when the guy abbed off at malham and landed on his back in the river. so harsh but i remember everyone there was pissing themselves!
He got up after 5 mins and hobbled away slowly.
In reply to Mick Ryan - Editor - UKC:
Call that a fall?
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2008/01/04/wfall104.xm...
Nearly 500 feet onto the pavement is a fall. Style is falling that far and being sitting up when the ambulance arrives.......
Call that a fall?
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2008/01/04/wfall104.xm...
Nearly 500 feet onto the pavement is a fall. Style is falling that far and being sitting up when the ambulance arrives.......
In reply to nniff:
But that's nothing compared to the Lancaster pilot during the war who baled out of his flaming plane at 18,500ft, only to find his parachute burned out. He survived courtesy of a tree and some snow.
But that's nothing compared to the Lancaster pilot during the war who baled out of his flaming plane at 18,500ft, only to find his parachute burned out. He survived courtesy of a tree and some snow.
In reply to SI A:
Sandrine - a purcell prusik is effectively a loop where the prusik is tied around itself. As mentioned it is used in SAR and in caving.
This link - if you click to enlarge the pic should show it more clearly
http://ahsrescue.com/pc-1211-105-personal-purcell-prusik-system.aspx
Sandrine - a purcell prusik is effectively a loop where the prusik is tied around itself. As mentioned it is used in SAR and in caving.
This link - if you click to enlarge the pic should show it more clearly
http://ahsrescue.com/pc-1211-105-personal-purcell-prusik-system.aspx
In reply to Serpico:
My mate was there and retells the story to hushed audiences. Apparently the whole drama took quite a long time to unfold wuth loud 'ahhs' and 'oohs' from the watching crowd. Against all expectations the lad lived and made a (fairly) complete recovery.
> >
> I wasn't there that day, but apparently he somehow ended up hanging by 2 prussik loops around his wrists, and then fell - tumbling through the rope which slowed him, but also gave him serious burns.
>> I wasn't there that day, but apparently he somehow ended up hanging by 2 prussik loops around his wrists, and then fell - tumbling through the rope which slowed him, but also gave him serious burns.
My mate was there and retells the story to hushed audiences. Apparently the whole drama took quite a long time to unfold wuth loud 'ahhs' and 'oohs' from the watching crowd. Against all expectations the lad lived and made a (fairly) complete recovery.
In reply to Mick Ryan - Editor - UKC:
Looks like Liam has survived as well, terrible fall that......
Looks like Liam has survived as well, terrible fall that......
In reply to Adam Moroz:
Don't be too smug. I was at a hanging belay with someone who almost started abbing down without having clipped in to the ropes! A very experienced (and good) climber too. Can easily happen if you get complacent.
Don't be too smug. I was at a hanging belay with someone who almost started abbing down without having clipped in to the ropes! A very experienced (and good) climber too. Can easily happen if you get complacent.
This topic has been archived, and won't accept reply postings.
Loading Notifications...