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You are confident in your gear placements and want to push your grade, but you daren't go for it.
You've got the fear of falling.
What you need to do is take a big whipper.
Read more at http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/
You've got the fear of falling.
What you need to do is take a big whipper.
Read more at http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/
In reply to Mick Ryan - Editor - UKC:
I don't see how it helps with a fear of falling while leading, surely it's a different thing? I've bungee jumped and I'd do it again quite happily but I'm still not up for taking a lead fall.
I don't see how it helps with a fear of falling while leading, surely it's a different thing? I've bungee jumped and I'd do it again quite happily but I'm still not up for taking a lead fall.
In reply to rich:
Hmmm, yes, it is borderline advertising.
IMHO, of course. And as it is UKC's site they are entitiled to decree what does and does not constitute advertising!
> (In reply to Mick Ryan - Editor - UKC)
>
> shouldn't this be a premier post . . ?
>
> shouldn't this be a premier post . . ?
Hmmm, yes, it is borderline advertising.
IMHO, of course. And as it is UKC's site they are entitiled to decree what does and does not constitute advertising!
In reply to Mick Ryan - Editor - UKC:
Whilst it looks like fun, I'm not sure falling onto a cargo net wearing a head-brace is going to improve my leading style?
Whilst it looks like fun, I'm not sure falling onto a cargo net wearing a head-brace is going to improve my leading style?
In reply to magpie:
Have you tried taking intentional falls? Start with really small ones & build up. I know it has worked for someone I know well.
Bill
Have you tried taking intentional falls? Start with really small ones & build up. I know it has worked for someone I know well.
Bill
In reply to Bill Davidson:
No! No falling! *fear*
Seriously though, it's on my list of stuff to work on, ta for the advice
No! No falling! *fear*
Seriously though, it's on my list of stuff to work on, ta for the advice
In reply to magpie:
Have you tried clip and drop at your local wall?
Climb half way up the wall. At the next clip, clip the rope in then let go - your belayer has been warned before hand.
Keep doing this all the way to the top of wall. When you get to the anchors, jump off.
Repeat.
Have you tried clip and drop at your local wall?
Climb half way up the wall. At the next clip, clip the rope in then let go - your belayer has been warned before hand.
Keep doing this all the way to the top of wall. When you get to the anchors, jump off.
Repeat.
In reply to Mick Ryan - Editor - UKC: Just make sure your not on a slab...
In reply to Mick Ryan - Editor - UKC:
What part of 'no falling' is confusing you guys?
I'm really not keen on flinging myself off the wall, also, that's onto bolts not gear, I can fall off overhanging stuff some times just not slabbier things which is no good cause I can't climb overhanging routes most of the time.
Sorry to hijack your thread
What part of 'no falling' is confusing you guys?
I'm really not keen on flinging myself off the wall, also, that's onto bolts not gear, I can fall off overhanging stuff some times just not slabbier things which is no good cause I can't climb overhanging routes most of the time.
Sorry to hijack your thread
In reply to Mick Ryan - Editor - UKC:
That's exactly what I meant Mick & it works. Magpie, we're men so we get confused easily
That's exactly what I meant Mick & it works. Magpie, we're men so we get confused easily
In reply to Bill Davidson:
Ok, well you men have fun throwing yourself off walls intentionally and I'll do the lady-like thing and learn to climb better so I just don't fall off, ever, at all.
Ok, well you men have fun throwing yourself off walls intentionally and I'll do the lady-like thing and learn to climb better so I just don't fall off, ever, at all.
In reply to magpie: I'm with you on this one. Have fallen before, intentionally and unintentionally and it doesn't make it any less scarier whatsoever!
In reply to lasonj: it has to be a systematic thing though, it's like saying 'I tried training down the wall once, and it didn't make me any stronger at all...'
In reply to magpie: Ever find yourself too "pumped" or "tired" to continue on an overhanging section at your wall but somehow finding the strength to climb back down to your last clip before sitting on the rope?...
In reply to Mick Ryan - Editor - UKC:
Hi, I can vouch for the clip and drop method for sport climbing. I was scared of falling (still am and it's healthy to be!) but it reduces the fear knowing that you tried it on that climb on that rope and it all held. Fear of the unknown means you otherwise play things too safe or slow. At least once you fallen, some of the unknown is, well..known!
Hi, I can vouch for the clip and drop method for sport climbing. I was scared of falling (still am and it's healthy to be!) but it reduces the fear knowing that you tried it on that climb on that rope and it all held. Fear of the unknown means you otherwise play things too safe or slow. At least once you fallen, some of the unknown is, well..known!
In reply to Samuel: In a word no, if i'm climbing it and it's overhanging i'm either indoors or very rarely outdoors seconding in which case I know can fall off if I have to. But usually I don't even try to get to the next clip if I'm unsure cause I know I won't make it and I'll have to fall off. (And yes I know this is not a good way to climb before anyone points it out)
Toddy, I can see your point and I'm glad it worked for you, but falling on bolts indoors is not going to help me to know that falling onto my gear outside is ok is it? It's a totally different thing. I know it's safe to fall indoors the majority of the time but that doesn't mean it's safe outdoors on MY gear.
And lasonj, I'm glad it's not just me
Anyway, I'm proud of how I have turned this news thread into being all about me! Not bad work for a Friday.
Toddy, I can see your point and I'm glad it worked for you, but falling on bolts indoors is not going to help me to know that falling onto my gear outside is ok is it? It's a totally different thing. I know it's safe to fall indoors the majority of the time but that doesn't mean it's safe outdoors on MY gear.
And lasonj, I'm glad it's not just me
Anyway, I'm proud of how I have turned this news thread into being all about me! Not bad work for a Friday.
In reply to Mick Ryan - Editor - UKC:
How exactly is this "news"?
> You are confident in your gear placements and want to push your grade, but you daren't go for it.
>
> You've got the fear of falling.
>
> What you need to do is take a big whipper.
>
> You've got the fear of falling.
>
> What you need to do is take a big whipper.
How exactly is this "news"?
In reply to Mick Ryan - Editor - UKC:
I'm sure you mean:
1) overhanging wall.
2) clip, drop, cows-tail to bolt, feed a little slack, let rope recover for a few minutes, climb, clip, drop,....
You'll be annoying the safety police and making the wall insurers fret.
I'm sure you mean:
1) overhanging wall.
2) clip, drop, cows-tail to bolt, feed a little slack, let rope recover for a few minutes, climb, clip, drop,....
You'll be annoying the safety police and making the wall insurers fret.
Some time ago I read an article about practising falling just before going to the Foundry.
I was beginning to tire on a hard move on a route in the Furnace and was just about to take a rest when I remembering what I'd been reading.
"What the hell - just go for it!" I told myself and had a go at the move.
Sure enough I came off and, to my surprise, dropped about 20ft.
"You never warned me you were going to fall off youth!"
I was beginning to tire on a hard move on a route in the Furnace and was just about to take a rest when I remembering what I'd been reading.
"What the hell - just go for it!" I told myself and had a go at the move.
Sure enough I came off and, to my surprise, dropped about 20ft.
"You never warned me you were going to fall off youth!"
In reply to Mick Ryan - Editor - UKC: Got plenty of spare ropes? You've too much money if you can afford to trash ropes by deliberately falling on them.
In reply to aln:
It's what the ropes there for!
You know on the label of a rope it says "number of falls X" where X might be 11 or 15 or something... That's not how many times you can fall on it over it's lifetime - it's a how many severe falls it can take in quick succession.
It's what the ropes there for!
You know on the label of a rope it says "number of falls X" where X might be 11 or 15 or something... That's not how many times you can fall on it over it's lifetime - it's a how many severe falls it can take in quick succession.
In reply to Swig: How often is "in quick succession"?
In reply to aln:
Haven't been able to find that out just yet. But for a single rope the test weight is 80kg and the fall factor 1.75. The falls that people suggest are way lower impact than that.
Haven't been able to find that out just yet. But for a single rope the test weight is 80kg and the fall factor 1.75. The falls that people suggest are way lower impact than that.
In reply to Swig: So are you saying I can take an infinite number of falls on a rope as long as they're not "in quick succession"?
In reply to Mick Ryan - Editor - UKC: seems like a lot of effort to go to for 2.5 seconds falling.
In reply to aln:
Yes. The stretchy-ness and handling of the rope will fade if it takes loads of big falls but it's not going to suddenly snap.
Yes. The stretchy-ness and handling of the rope will fade if it takes loads of big falls but it's not going to suddenly snap.
In reply to Swig:
Ropes are given cumulative fall factors for retirement, not for a group of sucessive falls then its alright after a while to start again. The reliable 'stretchiness' is what makes them a viable lead climbing rope, when its gone the rope could hurt you by increased shock loading. In practice the values may be conservative but you wouldnt want it the other way round. They also recommend resting the rope by removing tension after a big fall.
You need to be more careful about what you say.
Ropes are given cumulative fall factors for retirement, not for a group of sucessive falls then its alright after a while to start again. The reliable 'stretchiness' is what makes them a viable lead climbing rope, when its gone the rope could hurt you by increased shock loading. In practice the values may be conservative but you wouldnt want it the other way round. They also recommend resting the rope by removing tension after a big fall.
You need to be more careful about what you say.
In reply to Offwidth:
I'm not sure anyone needs to tell people to allow the rope a rest after taking a massive fall. They'll generally want a rest themselves - I would after factor 1.75.
I also thought of suggesting lopping 5m off the ends of a rope after lots of falls but didn't want to compromise the basic message.
I'm not sure anyone needs to tell people to allow the rope a rest after taking a massive fall. They'll generally want a rest themselves - I would after factor 1.75.
I also thought of suggesting lopping 5m off the ends of a rope after lots of falls but didn't want to compromise the basic message.
In reply to Swig:
"You know on the label of a rope it says "number of falls X" where X might be 11 or 15 or something... That's not how many times you can fall on it over it's lifetime - it's a how many severe falls it can take in quick succession."
Actualy its almost the exact opposite (its cumulative fall factors over its lifetime). Also taking the falls in quick succession with no rest period would breach that design factor.
"So are you saying I can take an infinite number of falls on a rope as long as they're not "in quick succession"? "Yes. The stretchy-ness and handling of the rope will fade if it takes loads of big falls but it's not going to suddenly snap."
Actually no. The whole point of a safe lead rope is that it stretches. Lead falls indoors on sports routes are usually from around 0.5 fall factor downwards, generally decreasing with the height you climb. On a fall factor 10 rope with 20 lots of 0.5 falls low down on the wall, if you strictly follow the manufacturer's data you need to cut off the full section of rope that has taken that loading.
"You know on the label of a rope it says "number of falls X" where X might be 11 or 15 or something... That's not how many times you can fall on it over it's lifetime - it's a how many severe falls it can take in quick succession."
Actualy its almost the exact opposite (its cumulative fall factors over its lifetime). Also taking the falls in quick succession with no rest period would breach that design factor.
"So are you saying I can take an infinite number of falls on a rope as long as they're not "in quick succession"? "Yes. The stretchy-ness and handling of the rope will fade if it takes loads of big falls but it's not going to suddenly snap."
Actually no. The whole point of a safe lead rope is that it stretches. Lead falls indoors on sports routes are usually from around 0.5 fall factor downwards, generally decreasing with the height you climb. On a fall factor 10 rope with 20 lots of 0.5 falls low down on the wall, if you strictly follow the manufacturer's data you need to cut off the full section of rope that has taken that loading.
In reply to aln:
thats complete bull. i got over my fear of falling inside exatcly how people had said (climbing to the lower off once having missed out a quickdraw and jumping off) and now on average every week me and my partner will take atleast 6 sizable falls indoors between us, and after about 150 falls my rope still almost looks new. climbing indoors, where i expect people will practce falling should bearly damage the rope as the draws are set to minimise the rope running over any edges, and when falling that high up the wall there is generally an insignificant fall factor (unless there is enormous rope drag)
id say go for it, it makes you climb far better in the long run when your not quivering with fear when you get above the bolts and you should reallise that if you do fall cliping (hopefully quite a way up) its not the worst thing in the world.
thats complete bull. i got over my fear of falling inside exatcly how people had said (climbing to the lower off once having missed out a quickdraw and jumping off) and now on average every week me and my partner will take atleast 6 sizable falls indoors between us, and after about 150 falls my rope still almost looks new. climbing indoors, where i expect people will practce falling should bearly damage the rope as the draws are set to minimise the rope running over any edges, and when falling that high up the wall there is generally an insignificant fall factor (unless there is enormous rope drag)
id say go for it, it makes you climb far better in the long run when your not quivering with fear when you get above the bolts and you should reallise that if you do fall cliping (hopefully quite a way up) its not the worst thing in the world.
In reply to Mick Ryan - Editor - UKC: time is betterspent training to climb better ,then you dont fall off.
In reply to mark s:
thats not necisarily true, considering how many people you see at the local wall who are reaching miles trying to get early clips and start shaking when they get about a foot above the draw only to completly relax when they get the next one clipped. i recon many of these people you see would be able to climb a good few grades harder if they had the confedence to go at a move 100% even if they know that there is only a small chance in catching it.
thats not necisarily true, considering how many people you see at the local wall who are reaching miles trying to get early clips and start shaking when they get about a foot above the draw only to completly relax when they get the next one clipped. i recon many of these people you see would be able to climb a good few grades harder if they had the confedence to go at a move 100% even if they know that there is only a small chance in catching it.
In reply to williamisgoldsmith: i've never considered training for falls nor has any one i climb with and theres a few necky routes under all those belts
In reply to williamisgoldsmith:
> (In reply to aln)
>
> thats complete bull. What's complete bull? and after about 150 falls my rope still almost looks new. It "almost looks new"? There you go, definitive proof that it's OK to take lots of falls on a rope and it'll still be safe to use.
>
> thats complete bull. What's complete bull? and after about 150 falls my rope still almost looks new. It "almost looks new"? There you go, definitive proof that it's OK to take lots of falls on a rope and it'll still be safe to use.
In reply to Mick Ryan - Editor - UKC: i used to hate falling. started with little falls on a top rope, the leader falls. now i fall 70 feet of bridges... It work, confront it and it will go away. If your scared of falling, jump of a bridge....
In reply to williamisgoldsmith:
Fall factor is fall length divided by rope paid out. Lets say you typically fall 2m (from 10m to 8m) onto a bolt at 9m thats roughly a 0.2 fall factor. 150 of those falls gives a cumulative fall factor of 30. Exceeding the manufactures data won't change the way your rope looks but it will degrade its perfomance. If your cumulative fall factors are exceeeded it is a fact the manufacturers recommend that you retire it, not bull.
Fall factor is fall length divided by rope paid out. Lets say you typically fall 2m (from 10m to 8m) onto a bolt at 9m thats roughly a 0.2 fall factor. 150 of those falls gives a cumulative fall factor of 30. Exceeding the manufactures data won't change the way your rope looks but it will degrade its perfomance. If your cumulative fall factors are exceeeded it is a fact the manufacturers recommend that you retire it, not bull.
In reply to Mick Ryan - Editor - UKC:
Ok guys. Come off it. We all know that if you are going to climb right up to your edge that it's better to have 100% of your focus on the route rather than on the consequences of a fall. But I agree, and coming from a generation where falling was often a big no no, learning to fall is not easy. Even nowadays jumping off in the gym is not easy for me. One method is to find a quiet day at the gym with 3 other friends and then get the competition going.
Last summer I was at the foundry with 3 friends. My brother set off up the big overhanging wall there, got to the lip, missed 3 clips and hurled himself off with a bloodcurdling cry !! He lifted me off my feet but took a soft ride ending up 10 feet off the deck. Then pronounced to the rest of us that anyone who did not take a flier bought the beer. The other guys all took their jumps without flinching. Comes my turn and the beer buying is looking likely, so I pick a route I know I cannot climb, get further than I thought I could, get the crux jug over the roof and then sweating blood lock on it and refuse to let go. Looking down I see my brother throwing slack on the floor, so I drop. A very soft fall. And that's the point, it's not all about falling, it's a lot about learning how to hold a fall and giving a soft fall by jumping in the air.
So go get a pair of leather gloves and get jumping.
sorry if this is too rambling.
Ok guys. Come off it. We all know that if you are going to climb right up to your edge that it's better to have 100% of your focus on the route rather than on the consequences of a fall. But I agree, and coming from a generation where falling was often a big no no, learning to fall is not easy. Even nowadays jumping off in the gym is not easy for me. One method is to find a quiet day at the gym with 3 other friends and then get the competition going.
Last summer I was at the foundry with 3 friends. My brother set off up the big overhanging wall there, got to the lip, missed 3 clips and hurled himself off with a bloodcurdling cry !! He lifted me off my feet but took a soft ride ending up 10 feet off the deck. Then pronounced to the rest of us that anyone who did not take a flier bought the beer. The other guys all took their jumps without flinching. Comes my turn and the beer buying is looking likely, so I pick a route I know I cannot climb, get further than I thought I could, get the crux jug over the roof and then sweating blood lock on it and refuse to let go. Looking down I see my brother throwing slack on the floor, so I drop. A very soft fall. And that's the point, it's not all about falling, it's a lot about learning how to hold a fall and giving a soft fall by jumping in the air.
So go get a pair of leather gloves and get jumping.
sorry if this is too rambling.
In reply to alburgessguide:
No problem at all with that, just know the limits (ie don't do it 150 times on the same rope).
No problem at all with that, just know the limits (ie don't do it 150 times on the same rope).
In reply to Alex Pryor:
Sounds like your belayer should of been paying more attention?
> Sure enough I came off and, to my surprise, dropped about 20ft.
Sounds like your belayer should of been paying more attention?
In reply to Offwidth:
I've had a look for the cumulative effect that you mention. I could only find reference to it in one book and a few websites.
The rope manufacturers websites I looked at didn't suggest counting up small falls as a way of determining retirement time - more that people should rely on inspection and a lifetime based on the average usage of the rope.
For example Mammut say:
"Short, sport climbing falls only minimally
damage a rope; it can withstand hundreds of
them. If the rope end becomes stiff or rough
you can cut off the damaged section. Also,
bigger falls of ten or fifteen meters don’t have
to mean the end for the rope, assuming a
dynamic belay technique has been used."
No harm in erring on the side of caution though.
I've had a look for the cumulative effect that you mention. I could only find reference to it in one book and a few websites.
The rope manufacturers websites I looked at didn't suggest counting up small falls as a way of determining retirement time - more that people should rely on inspection and a lifetime based on the average usage of the rope.
For example Mammut say:
"Short, sport climbing falls only minimally
damage a rope; it can withstand hundreds of
them. If the rope end becomes stiff or rough
you can cut off the damaged section. Also,
bigger falls of ten or fifteen meters don’t have
to mean the end for the rope, assuming a
dynamic belay technique has been used."
No harm in erring on the side of caution though.
In reply to Swig:
Swig, the figures you are referring to are part of the EN standard test for dynamic ropes. I haven't got the document to hand but to pass the test the rope must survive at least ten (i think) of the factor 1.75 falls without breaking. Some 'rest' is given between drops but not much - five minutes or so I think - so that the test can be completed in a reasonable time. Longer rests would give better recovery and a few more falls held but not many - as it is the knot that eventually breaks having become progressively tightened by the successive drops. So yes, a harsh test and not one likely to be replicated in a real situation. Retie your knots each time and rest the rope and you can take hundreds of sub-factor 1 falls, as mammut say.
Offwidth, nice as your fall factor x repetition maths is, I don't know of any research to back it up. Fall factors are a good way for us to understand the severity of falls but I don't think the figure is significant in a way that we can do calculations with it.
Swig, the figures you are referring to are part of the EN standard test for dynamic ropes. I haven't got the document to hand but to pass the test the rope must survive at least ten (i think) of the factor 1.75 falls without breaking. Some 'rest' is given between drops but not much - five minutes or so I think - so that the test can be completed in a reasonable time. Longer rests would give better recovery and a few more falls held but not many - as it is the knot that eventually breaks having become progressively tightened by the successive drops. So yes, a harsh test and not one likely to be replicated in a real situation. Retie your knots each time and rest the rope and you can take hundreds of sub-factor 1 falls, as mammut say.
Offwidth, nice as your fall factor x repetition maths is, I don't know of any research to back it up. Fall factors are a good way for us to understand the severity of falls but I don't think the figure is significant in a way that we can do calculations with it.
In reply to Adam L:
Alright Adam,
I read the standard on the UIAA website and for a single rope it's a minimum of 5 drops. The standard didn't seem to specify the rest period but other bits and pieces on the internet suggested 5 minutes.
I've still got that chalk bag of yours. I glimpsed it the other day.
Alright Adam,
I read the standard on the UIAA website and for a single rope it's a minimum of 5 drops. The standard didn't seem to specify the rest period but other bits and pieces on the internet suggested 5 minutes.
I've still got that chalk bag of yours. I glimpsed it the other day.
In reply to Mick Ryan - Editor - UKC: falling off is easy, it's not hitting the ground that's the hard bit. I don't see that this sort of escapade helps you tell if that last runner was any good, or even if the last bolt is still sound. Best simply not to fall off.
In reply to Mick Ryan - Editor - UKC:
i cant find the article any help?
i cant find the article any help?
In reply to Mick Ryan - Editor - UKC:
I've never practised falling, but I should. What I would hope to learn is not just trusting an anchor or rope, but initiating correctly and keeping the right posture for best comfort. One of my leader falls was head-first, another was a slewed sideways job. This topic could be re-badged 'How to Jump' (and when ...)
I've never practised falling, but I should. What I would hope to learn is not just trusting an anchor or rope, but initiating correctly and keeping the right posture for best comfort. One of my leader falls was head-first, another was a slewed sideways job. This topic could be re-badged 'How to Jump' (and when ...)
In reply to magpie:
I did a bungee jump and it part caused my fear of falling!!
> I've bungee jumped and I'd do it again quite happily but I'm still not up for taking a lead fall.
I did a bungee jump and it part caused my fear of falling!!
In reply to Mick Ryan - Editor - UKC:
Hank used to have us all doing "falling off practice"
The idea was place good solid runners climb above them as far as you dare
and leave go, guess what no-one wanted to leave go !!
He still goes on about it now " Geoff we need to practice falling off "
"yea right Hank !!!
Hank used to have us all doing "falling off practice"
The idea was place good solid runners climb above them as far as you dare
and leave go, guess what no-one wanted to leave go !!
He still goes on about it now " Geoff we need to practice falling off "
"yea right Hank !!!
In reply to Mick Ryan - Editor - UKC: im definatley trying the clip and drop method when i next go indoor climbing, i really need to cure my fear of falling, i wont try harder grades because of it!
In reply to Mick Ryan - Editor - UKC:
Okay, question for those that say they're scared of falling. Could you jump off a 5m (or 3m even) diving board? I think that separates whether you're scared of the actual fear of falling, or the other side of it which is gear failing etc. If it's the former, falling practise should help. But you need to trust your belayer, and the system, (and find somebody to get you to led go as I know how hard it is to do!) etc. I'm actually contemplating going to find a diving board and practising off that instead - I predict I'll be terrified!
Okay, question for those that say they're scared of falling. Could you jump off a 5m (or 3m even) diving board? I think that separates whether you're scared of the actual fear of falling, or the other side of it which is gear failing etc. If it's the former, falling practise should help. But you need to trust your belayer, and the system, (and find somebody to get you to led go as I know how hard it is to do!) etc. I'm actually contemplating going to find a diving board and practising off that instead - I predict I'll be terrified!
In reply to cider nut:
I can do diving boards, bungee jumping, cliff jumping all that sort of stuff but I can't fall on gear at all and I'm not keen on falling on bolts if they're below my waist. It's partially that I don't trust the gear (which I know is silly, especially so on bolts) and partially because I think I'm going to hurt myself hitting the wall or ground, I think.
I can do diving boards, bungee jumping, cliff jumping all that sort of stuff but I can't fall on gear at all and I'm not keen on falling on bolts if they're below my waist. It's partially that I don't trust the gear (which I know is silly, especially so on bolts) and partially because I think I'm going to hurt myself hitting the wall or ground, I think.
In reply to Adam L:
Firstly I've never heard of any ropes snapping in real climbing situations where the fall factor was within the specified limit and no sharp or abrasive edges were involved or the rope wasn't internally damaged.
Secondly, information around lifetimes and performance degradation are always going to be conservative. What I said is based on knowing full well that ropes will in reality suffer less than calculations of cummulative fall factors will indicate and that the effects may not be linear: but you have to use something to illustrate the point. Also, following manufacturers info on retirement, including logging fall factors, is pretty much a requirement in a club rope context, given insurance issues.
I am worried about people who haven't got the first clue on rope lifetimes or dynamic performance boasting about hundreds of big falls indoors. I think this should always be challenged (in a realistic way). Rope performance does degrade with time and heavy useage. Their ropes won't snap but their bodies might be taking unneccesary shock loads increasing injury risk. Too many climbers use old ropes for leading they know they shouldnt be using: significant crampon damage, slipped sheaths, stiff feeling, kinked, etc.
Mammut actually say "Short, sport climbing falls only minimally damage a rope; it can withstand hundreds of them."
What they mean by short is clearer in the next bit "Also, bigger falls of ten or fifteen meters don’t have to mean the end for the rope, assuming a >dynamic belay technique has been used. >fall factor and >impact force are critical for the well being of a rope. A longer fall with fall factor over 1, which is not gently braked, can clearly reduce a rope’s safety reserve. Even then it may still hold simple sport climbing
falls, but can, however, break with edge loading, even over a less sharp edge, when compared with a new rope."
http://www.mammut.ch/mammut/downloads.asp
Firstly I've never heard of any ropes snapping in real climbing situations where the fall factor was within the specified limit and no sharp or abrasive edges were involved or the rope wasn't internally damaged.
Secondly, information around lifetimes and performance degradation are always going to be conservative. What I said is based on knowing full well that ropes will in reality suffer less than calculations of cummulative fall factors will indicate and that the effects may not be linear: but you have to use something to illustrate the point. Also, following manufacturers info on retirement, including logging fall factors, is pretty much a requirement in a club rope context, given insurance issues.
I am worried about people who haven't got the first clue on rope lifetimes or dynamic performance boasting about hundreds of big falls indoors. I think this should always be challenged (in a realistic way). Rope performance does degrade with time and heavy useage. Their ropes won't snap but their bodies might be taking unneccesary shock loads increasing injury risk. Too many climbers use old ropes for leading they know they shouldnt be using: significant crampon damage, slipped sheaths, stiff feeling, kinked, etc.
Mammut actually say "Short, sport climbing falls only minimally damage a rope; it can withstand hundreds of them."
What they mean by short is clearer in the next bit "Also, bigger falls of ten or fifteen meters don’t have to mean the end for the rope, assuming a >dynamic belay technique has been used. >fall factor and >impact force are critical for the well being of a rope. A longer fall with fall factor over 1, which is not gently braked, can clearly reduce a rope’s safety reserve. Even then it may still hold simple sport climbing
falls, but can, however, break with edge loading, even over a less sharp edge, when compared with a new rope."
http://www.mammut.ch/mammut/downloads.asp
In reply to Offwidth:
In practice how do you go about logging falls?
In the heat of the moment the fall factor may be hard to estimate and not the priority at the time. Also the force on the rope and what bit of the rope has been stressed will vary according to the friction on the rope in the system.
Poorly extended gear could move a low factor fall towards what is effectively a high factor fall for the last few metres of the rope, a higher factor fall slipping down a slab might be less of an issue.
Doesn't it boil down to inspection of the rope and trim or replace if necessary?
In practice how do you go about logging falls?
In the heat of the moment the fall factor may be hard to estimate and not the priority at the time. Also the force on the rope and what bit of the rope has been stressed will vary according to the friction on the rope in the system.
Poorly extended gear could move a low factor fall towards what is effectively a high factor fall for the last few metres of the rope, a higher factor fall slipping down a slab might be less of an issue.
Doesn't it boil down to inspection of the rope and trim or replace if necessary?
In reply to Swig:
"Doesn't it boil down to inspection of the rope and trim or replace if necessary?" No. Read the Mammut page as an example, there are all sorts of reasons to retire a rope that might 'look' fine.
"In practice how do you go about logging falls?" For a club rope you should do your best and if in doubt stray on the side of caution.
"Poorly extended gear could move a low factor fall towards what is effectively a high factor fall for the last few metres of the rope" ??????????
"Doesn't it boil down to inspection of the rope and trim or replace if necessary?" No. Read the Mammut page as an example, there are all sorts of reasons to retire a rope that might 'look' fine.
"In practice how do you go about logging falls?" For a club rope you should do your best and if in doubt stray on the side of caution.
"Poorly extended gear could move a low factor fall towards what is effectively a high factor fall for the last few metres of the rope" ??????????
In reply to Offwidth:
Re: ?????
Ok to make sense the fall factor idea requires the length of rope from the belayer to the faller stretching.
Friction when the rope goes through krabs or rubs on the rock reduces the degree to which the rope stretches evenly.
If you've got a zigzagged bunch of poorly extended gear near the top piece then the rope below this gets less of the force of the fall.
It's way in which falls logged could vary.
And then there's the type of belay device, belay technique, tie in knot used, weight of the leader...
Re: ?????
Ok to make sense the fall factor idea requires the length of rope from the belayer to the faller stretching.
Friction when the rope goes through krabs or rubs on the rock reduces the degree to which the rope stretches evenly.
If you've got a zigzagged bunch of poorly extended gear near the top piece then the rope below this gets less of the force of the fall.
It's way in which falls logged could vary.
And then there's the type of belay device, belay technique, tie in knot used, weight of the leader...
In reply to Swig:
But I take your point that club member logging a fall have to do their best if logging is what they have to do.
But I take your point that club member logging a fall have to do their best if logging is what they have to do.
In reply to Swig:
Vary sure, but nothing like "could move a low factor fall towards what is effectively a high factor fall fall" unless you've clove-hitched your last runner (which is more the territory of advanced tactical tricks). I'm sure your don't really believe what you wrote but this is a public site and you'd be amazed how impressionable some people can be.
Vary sure, but nothing like "could move a low factor fall towards what is effectively a high factor fall fall" unless you've clove-hitched your last runner (which is more the territory of advanced tactical tricks). I'm sure your don't really believe what you wrote but this is a public site and you'd be amazed how impressionable some people can be.
In reply to Offwidth:
I'm sure I believe in extending gear! I've not done any tests.
It just sounded to me like your suggested policies would result in way more ropes being retired than necessary.
I'm sure I believe in extending gear! I've not done any tests.
It just sounded to me like your suggested policies would result in way more ropes being retired than necessary.
In reply to Offwidth:
Here we go...
http://www.bealplanet.com/portail-2006/index.php?page=facteur_chute&lan...
Here we go...
http://www.bealplanet.com/portail-2006/index.php?page=facteur_chute&lan...
In reply to Swig:
I owe you some thanks...I knew I'd seen that somewhere. Of course the Beal calculations and the Mammut statements are difficult to entirely square up. Also doing the calculations its still not possible to get big fall factors (>1) unless the section of rope from the top runner to the one below is short and effectively isolates the rope below (say rubbing on a lip of an overhang).
I owe you some thanks...I knew I'd seen that somewhere. Of course the Beal calculations and the Mammut statements are difficult to entirely square up. Also doing the calculations its still not possible to get big fall factors (>1) unless the section of rope from the top runner to the one below is short and effectively isolates the rope below (say rubbing on a lip of an overhang).
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