UKC

Anybody see the news last night about the MR being stretched due to people going on to the hills with inadequate equipment and even not being able to read a map, I missed it just wondred what was said? anyone got any veiws on it?

http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/older.html?month=01&year=2008#n42236

In reply to BP12: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7195365.stm

Alan

In reply to Alan Taylor: thanks Alan small artacial, cant belive some people, what do thay expect the RAF to come get them so thay can get to there dinner date on time.

In reply to BP12: Happens a lot.

In reply to drunken monkey:

It's not just mountian rescue either (see bottom of page).

http://www.met.police.uk/999/
http://www.surrey.police.uk/news_item.asp?artid=6100
http://archive.thenorthernecho.co.uk/2003/9/8/77880.html

Some people just have no common sense. It is just not acceptable, especially from people in the hills. Although I suppose for some of these people every situation is potentially a dangerous one. Can people get charged for these improper callouts to MTR like they can with the police?

In reply to DS87: i know a couple in an MR team and this sort of thing is very real. there should be some sort of "fine" for inappropriate uses of MR, but definging "inappropriate" might be tricky.

liz
x

In reply to BP12:
Name and shame these idiots.

In reply to BP12: This was done to death a couple of days ago on here, also remember that many of these "stories" are very old and rehashed as news as part of a campaign to create a story to raise awareness

In reply to BP12:

This thread on MR in Italy makes an interesting contrast:
http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=267838

Luca says this:

"HOW MUCH WILL YOU PAY? Until recently, mountain rescue was free on the whole Italian territory, no question asked. Starting from 2002, this now varies from area to area. Administrative units like Aosta Valley or Trentino may now charge for the rescue (up to 750€ per hour) if the person to be rescued isn’t in need of medical care or in danger of life, and will definitely charge you (and you may be denounced!) if you fake an emergency to get a free ride. In other words, if you’ve insisted on dragging your vertigo-suffering girlfriend up the ferrata of the Dalmazzi hut, and now she insists on calling rescue because she panicked and can’t go back down, your holiday is going to cost you a lot more than planned!

If the team leader decides you don’t need rescue, he can flatly refuse it and leave to your own devices. It happens rarely, but it happens. On the other hand, rescue for medical reasons is absolutely mandatory, notwithstanding nationality, insurance status, etc.

In Piemonte and in other areas rescue is still free of charge, but again, don’t call them just to avoid a long walk down a mountain, or you may be denounced for “procurato allarme”, a rather serious charge."

Perhaps the time has come for UK MR teams to consider something similar?

And before anyone asks: Yes, I make a point of putting at least a quid in the MR box when I'm ordering a pint in the hills. And, yes, I have guided ill-equipped bumblies off a hill in winter and gone several miles out of my way (away from my car) in doing so.

In reply to BP12:

People just watched Corrie but didn't take home the important message.

In reply to BP12: I am a member of a fell walking club and in the past I have led groups of adults in the lakes and North wales. I would say that at least half of the members couldn't use a map and compass, nd in winter could not use an ice axe correctly. I think it is about time that we started a system of payment similar to that in Italy, if it means people have to take out insurance, then so be it. My wife and I always take out rescue insuranve when we walk, climb abroad.

In reply to icnoble: what the hell are people with out the experiance proper equipment and knowing how to use it and not being able to read a map or use a compass doing on a mountain in the first place sounds hard but i would say they are candidats for natural selection in action and any harm they come to would be entirly there own fault.

In reply to russty:

We all start somewhere. How many of us actually start with all the gear and knowledge, most just head out and take it steady. These guys just have a lack of common sense.

In reply to IainRUK:

There's nothing common about hill sense, it is like you implied gained by experience and education.

In reply to Solaris:


It must be noted, however, that there are legal implications that I'm not sure would work with the UK law system (for instance, the rescue team leader or his controller should be legally endowed to decide if the rescue is necessary or not)

In reply to Fawksey:

Yep:

http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=281188&v=1#x4167857

In reply to Rob Naylor:

Yep and now it's a news item so it'll get triple the amount of eyeballs.

In reply to BP12:

Yeah, it's a shame. I remember this one http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/staffordshire/6273721.stm which must have been terrible for those involved, but I can't understand how it could happen. The whole area is surrounded by a road, if they'd walked in any direction for a miax of twenty minutes they would have come to a road. I work and climb in the hills almost every day and I would pay for rescue if I needed it, but I'm glad we don't have to. Hats off to the guys who do it.

In reply to Mick Ryan - Editor - UKC:

But it ain't news. I can't see any reason for these old MRT stories to have suddenly been dredged up by the BBC, unless it's related in some ways to the comments about "Corrie" (presumably Coronation Street rather than the Angry Scottish publication?).

In reply to Rob Naylor:

Really? No reason at all eh?

In reply to Mick Ryan - Editor - UKC:

There's nothing common about common sense either.

I've seen people broken down in tears just because they got left alone in hill mist and didn't know what to do. City types, but still. I thought: common sense says 'walk downhill and you will be OK'; Even if you can't read a map, even if you don't HAVE a map, you know which way downhill is.

Ergo: common sense is an oxymoron invoked by people experienced enough to know better.

In reply to Mick Ryan - Editor - UKC:

Well I've been out of the country for a while, so if something's happened with a rescue that was noteworthy, and which may have triggered an interest from the media in 10-year old stories about people calling for helicopters, I may have missed it.

In reply to BP12:
If people didn't think they could buy experience with paper work and courses plus all the commercial crap they would have to go through an apprentiship and learn a few skills. the aded benefit would be less people in the hills.

In reply to Rob Naylor: They even got two peple from MR to comment from the same team, and both on the MRC and even once an item!

It probably was corrie that started it and the telegraph is Lancashire based as are Andy and Jude

In reply to jhenryb:

I'm fairly sure common sense is common enough that most people, experienced or otherwise, should possess enough of it to know that you don't bother mountain rescue because you've got your buggy stuck.

Its one thing idiotic wanabe-hill walkers getting genuinely lost in bad weather and not having the experience to cope sensibly with the situation, but hearing about some of these stories one can only conclude that the culprits are as much selfish as they are stupid. Mountain rescue are mostly underfunded volunteer run services and to go stretching those resources when you are in no genuine risk of injury or death is essentially putting the lives of others at increased risk. Fools should not be humoured when the potential repurcussions are so serious and real, these people should be penalised for wasting MR time in exactly the same manner as people who waste the time of other emergency services like the police, fire brigade, ambulance etc.

In reply to BP12:
Some people have no shame or sense of responsibility.
I've broken both my ankles at crags and walked 'hobbled' off both times, never even occurred to me to call MR.
Bloody punters.

In reply to Rob Naylor:

Its may be old news but as someone with 33years under his belt I can hosestly say that 60% of all calls for help now are via mobile for folk cragfast or lost.

THese folk 20 years ago would have triggered major searches when not turning up and therefore big searches are now less common.

These folk may have right to ask for help but as a rescuer its demoralising and speaking very personaly feel used as a cheap guide service

In reply to jhenryb:

City types? What like Mick Fowler?

Anyway, I think muh of it is common sense. Know where you are going, keep dry, take a torch if it gets dark, stay on the main paths, take a map. This stuff is quite simple.

But yes many don't have common sense, but then these are the sorts of people who call the life boats because they take a speedboat 5 miles out to see and run out of fuel. Many people lack basic common sense. I still think its fairly common though. For the number of people who go out in the hills I think there's still few rescues which shows most people are fine.

In reply to BP12:

As others have said, being ill-equipped or inexperienced is one thing but calling the mountain rescue because you have a dinner party or you can't be bothered to walk down is digusting and these people should be charged for their 'taxi' off the hills.

Perhaps a scheme involving as many outdoor shops as possible (posters, basic hill advice etc) could reduce the number of inexperienced/ill equipped people on the hills?

In very popular areas/mountains such as Snowdon perhaps signs could be put up in car parks. For example, a large sign in the pen y pass car park outlining the sort of things you should be carrying the basic skills you should have and perhaps some alarming rescue figures with details of why these people were rescued.

hamish

In reply to Hamish Dunn:
>

While I see the reasoning, I'd be against any fines for incorrect call outs, as I'd never want there to be a detterant to stop people calling out the MRT's. I'm not sure what the MRT's think but I guess they'd rather take 20 live people off the hill than 1 dead person.

In reply to Young Fox:

Hey, I'm not complaining about MRT being highlighted in the media, or the fact that an increasing number of calls are for frivolous reasons, or by people who, as you say, are looking for a cheap guide service.

I just thought it was odd that all the major media had suddenly decided to make "news" features out of it, but to illustrate their features with examples that actually occurred 120 years ago.

BTW...is Fraser C still in the team (assuming that "Young Fox" is who I think it is)? Seem to have lost touch with him.

In reply to BP12: for info, Cairngorm MR on channel 4 now, looking at the debilitating influence of extreme cold. Nearly finished, but might be able to download from C4?

interesting programme and possibly relevant to this debate

In reply to IainRUK:

Yep, but often overlooked. I remember a couple in the Barn Door getting quite upset when the assistant suggested that they buy a map for their planned ascent of Scafell Pike: "you're just trying to rip us off for £ 5.00...we can *see* the bloody mountain from here".

And the couple who we met on top of Scafell Pike in t-shirts and shorts when a howling wind and rain shower came in. They *could* have moved smartly downwards and kept warm by moving fast, but chose to "huddle" until the woman was really cold. I lent her my fleece on the promise that she'd drop it in at the campsite shop when they got down, but the bastards fcuked off with it!

In reply to Rob Naylor:

I can't help wondering whether the BBC's sudden interest in this may be down to guilt. Obviously they can't be blamed for people's selfishness or stupidity, but they did have the likes of Griff Rhys Jones and Julia Bradbury spend the whole summer trying to convince the tv bums of Britain to get outdoors without making more than the most pathetic of attempts to educate people in the associated risks of the mountain environment and the skills needed to manage them.

In reply to Rob Naylor:

sums it up perfectly

In reply to elfofnight42:

I disagree. I think both programmes mentioned the dangers sufficiently. GRJ had a few programmes with MRT's.

In reply to Rob Naylor:

It's called filling time on a slow news day.

In reply to elfofnight42:

Good point, though i still reckon it's more to do with geting a few ratings.

In reply to IainRUK:

Really? Mountain did feature MRT's in some episodes but the only real risks GRJ seemed capable of making people aware of were that if you take up rock climbing you might fall to your doom, or that if you go hill walking in the winter you might possibly die of hypothermia if it all goes horribly wrong - both of which are risks I think most people are well aware of without his help. But what about the many mistakes inexperienced hill walkers far more commonly make that lead to these stupid situations the MR services are getting called out - Innapropriate clothing (even in the summer)? Poor knowledge of the route? Lack of navigational skills? No map or compass? General ignorance of the risks of being in the mountains?

Julia Bradbury did of course make us all very aware of the perils of choosing Tim Emmett as climbing partner. But I wasn't actually refering to that particular overdramatised piece of tosh, rather I meant her series on walking in the lakeland fells. This introduction to some of the countries finest walks didn't even attempt to touch on the safety issues relating to them, issues which are evidently quite serious considering two walkers died in seperate incidents on Helvelyn (one of the featured fells) just the other week.

In reply to Rob Naylor:

Spot the typo! 10 years ago!

In reply to BP12: I suspect that one reason inappropriate people are getting on the hills is the proliferation of "made" paths. I realise that these are a "lesser of evils" to deal with the problems of erosion, but we (the mountaineering community) have to realise that a "made" path is inviting people to walk up it which is fine until they get off it and in some sort of difficulty.

Not sure what the answer is but I've not got a problem with charging/fining people who call out the MR without due cause (although there's always the problem of where to draw the line).

One possible answer might be to have some sort of helpline that can evaluate each situation and if no immediate danger not call out the MR but give suitable advice to callers so that they can help themselves. However I'm sure this will open up the legal liability issues with respect to giving advice. Maybe when it's not serious, the caller should be told that they will be fined/charged if the callout is inappropriate.

In reply to Michael Hood:

Or perhaps refer the issue to another service who can go find the lost but otherwise unendanger nim-wits? Maybe specially trained police officers or the like, thus shifting the burden from under resourced volunteer MR services and allowing them to focus on situations where their skills are really needed.

In reply to elfofnight42:

The reason the Police delegate to MR is because they are the "experts". The "caller" or their number will be passed onto a Team Leader/Controller so they can give them a grilling and make the decision. The problem is one of concience I suspect. There must always be the doubt in the back of the mind that if you leave them or just advise them how to get off and something happens - numptys or not!

In reply to BP12:

hey all,
think we may be all missing the point with MR? I have to agree with liz-davey. the ambulance and police dont take likely to shit calls, so a fine would be spot on. I am aware that it can cost the Police/MR/RAF £17k to just get the chopper in the air and to co-ordinate the whole rescue,true? for some knobber sandwich packer who cant be arsed to learn some basic skills.
I have worked in the fitness industry for a few years before more recently doing my ML and to pursue a career in the mountains. and although you may think, what does this mean? well there is a canny theme.... the NHS will spend Billions... yes Billions a year on drugs and treatment for pre/post cardiac and other health problems; however they will not use any of this budget on prevention, i.e personal trainers (like myself) and fitness professionals to combat the issue in the first place. you log on to any resource (REPS) and find out how many fitness pro's there are to the population? the ratio will shock.
what im trying to say is, the MR has enough on its plate, and as a Mountain Leader i would be more than willing to work on a joint venture with my local MR as part of a local team of leaders who "Patrol" the hills on the weekends, this the prevention rather than the cure. there are a lot of volunteer sectors and groups out there who work jointly with the police/services etc. would it be an idea to create a team of hill/mountain walkers to work closely on the behalf of MR providing basic skills out there.? the thing is we are out walking anyway, and have a moral obligation to advise the flip flop posse that thier summit dream for that day is going to end abrubtly. personally i would happily be part of a team like this, as a/ it gives a team more experience b/relieves some of the pressures off MR c/ provides basic skills to hill walkers who are basically be honest p*****g everyone off!

have i waffled? or is there an existing group?
the MR have many volunteers, it would be easier to use or set up a team to get out there, and initiate some rules... militant i know but these late for a dinner party morons will only increase

bbooyyahh

In reply to Lee Grant:

Oh God No!

What a terryfying prospect. I'm 110% against any 'patrolling' of the hills.

In reply to Lee Grant:
personally i would happily be part of a team like this, as a/ it gives a team more experience b/relieves some of the pressures off MR c/ provides basic skills to hill walkers who are basically be honest p*****g everyone off!

I don't think they are pissing everyone off.

In reply to Lee Grant:

This cost is borne by the RAF (OK, the taxpayer really) but if they didn't get out on MR, etc shouts then they would be flying training exercises. There was a classic case a few years ago when they were criticised for "rescuing" a cow from a ditch or somewhere. The RAF responded saying that if they hadn't been shifting the cow to safety they would be moving blocks on concrete around an airfield to simiulate similar manoeuvers.

In reply to Lee Grant:

I know very experienced Alpinists who have wandered up Snowdon in flip flops. I'm not sure what point you are trying to make ?

In reply to Lee Grant:

I hope this is a troll.

In reply to IainRUK:
>

Especially ones who sign off with "bbooyah".

In reply to KeithW: Reckon Iain didn't disinfect properly after his foray into outdoorsmagic and brought this little blighter back in his boot cleats. It's gone to ground under the bridge.

In reply to toad:

Sincerest Apologies for that.

However this group need a name, how about Mountain Assistance?

They could where badges and everyfing.

In reply to Lee Grant:

This subject has been proposed many times on many different forums. Its all in good faith but probably wouldn't be viable from the MRC and Police point of view.

To see the pitfalls of this idea you should visit your local MRT and find out how the rescue system really works, the training, the insurance and legal side of things, then you will be better informed and will come to the same conclusion... that another team made up of volunteer weekend hill patrols, who's skill and ability level can not be vouched for, who's insurance is not appropriate or could not be provided, the list goes on.

Its far easier for people to act as a good samaritan if they ever come accross a situation in which they can help, whether that is providing a warm drink and clothing and shelter for an injured walker whilst waiting for the MR or whether that is providing more information about the area you are in.

Most MRT members do actually enjoy walking, climbing and mountaineering and they are often out walking and climbing on weekends and in the week, nearly all will have a personal comms radio with them as well as a mobile phone for recieving emergency SMS callouts etc
Many team members have been out walking etc and have recieved a call to a rescue close to their location. And armed with the training and experience that they have they can deal effectively with the rescue process.
Do some research and you will see how many members some of the busier MRT have, they are not small teams, Ogwen and Llanberis probably have at least 100 team members between them that are classed as active and on call 24hrs. Then there is also SARDA who are regulary out walking their dogs in the mountains.

Many team members will be qualified intermediate casualty care medics ( means they can diagnose medical and clinical problems and administer IM Drugs) and around 15% will be advanced case care ( means they can administer IV drugs and perform other more skilled invasive techniques).

And these people may be out walking for their own pleasure over the weekends, so as you see, there is allready a highly trained team of volunteers that are in place, they are called Mountain Rescue Teams.

All rescue service members do what they do because they are passionate about the environment in which they enjoy their time in, whether thats, the sea, the lowland hills and moors or rugged mountains, they also hold dear the sancticy of life and its preservation.

A lot of people have a missconception that MRT members do it just for the glory and perceived qudos.
There is no glory or qudos of searching for a fallen walker or climber in bad weather on shitty steep ground in the middle of the night and then having to stretcher the body off the hill. There is no glory or qudos in recovering bodies of children from rivers.There is no glory or qudos of finding people avalanched or frozen 1/2 hour from Cairngorm carpark.
Those examples are just a few of the fatalities that most of you would have seen or heard on the TV or Radio or on the internet forums.

Perhaps some people will think again about rescue team members, Yes there are those who join rescue teams so that they can put it down on their C.V and 'be the man', they don't last long in a team, just long enough to have a few small tales of their grandeur to tell anyone who will listen.

If people really want to help they should either donate a small giftaid contribution to their local team or to the MRC.
Or if they are really passionate about it and can spare considerable time they should apply to become a trainee of their local rescue team.

Thanks
Mark Handford Oggy Team

In reply to BP12:

thanks for the reply mark/guys, as you can see there is considerable debate here, of course the ethos would not be foot patrols as the with the army, but a dedicated team who have specific timings to go out in hotspots.
when you mention the legal aspect, doesn't the NGB awards allow a ML/MIA to make crucial decisions on the hill? (like a personal trainer in the gym) if you have a group of qualified Leaders, wouldn't they, with also, quote 'local MRT clothing' provide and instill confidence to individuals/groups in distress. and make those decisions for the group.

I know there is no search for glory in MRteams and the volunteers, trust me, have my upmost respect for all you guys. but there must be a way to eliviate the teams work load. firefighters have retained, so do police and of course like myself the TA. I serve as a combat medic, and after leaving the regular army, being in an Airborne unit worked very closely with the RAF, and can assure you the times ive sat behind a pilot/crew during operations tasked with minor call outs, the reaction is quite different. and yes it can be uncomfortable when subjected to sights of troops and casualties in bad way.

its sad to here that Vols come and go within MRTeams, and that it can only be for the stories and bar banter. but then maybe there could be a pecking order before becoming a seasoned MR Member? say 6 months as a rolling team before working with the rescue crew. these things may already be in place so excuse my ignorance if so.

i strongly believe that the mountains are quickly becoming the new 'gym' and more and more people are taking to the hills as its easily accessible, but then like a 'gym' guidance is needed. and teams wouldnt really go a miss. my point like i said was prevention in the first place. of course groups can hire a Mountain Leader for the day and all will be fine, but for these less experienced groups? they should be pointed in the right direction. and when in trouble, know that the mountain rescue doesnt have to be the first thing they think of.

but then there is a lot of TV coverage on mountains, like Mountain, yet there is never a programme covering the skills aspect? so the media are promoting outdoor pursuits when they bcould include the main points like; when hitting the hills, buy a map...compass....waterprooo

oh and leave the flip flops where they are - the house/beach

bbooyah sorry lee

In reply to Lee Grant:

Sorry Lee. The idea of patrolling teams of uniformed volunteers stalking the fells ready to impart advice fills me with horror.

In reply to Lee Grant: Hill Police - Great Idea....

In reply to Lee Grant:

For me, as an ML holder, I don't think I have any jurisdiction to tell people what to do. Sometimes I'll offer help, but that's as far as I'd go.


The retained Fireman are properly trained volunteers, like the actual MRT's are. I can't see how an MRT member is any different to a retained fireman.


This occurs, You become a provisional member of a team.



I think its great that they are. The more people who get out the better. Guidance is fine, policing or patrolling is not IMO. The appeal of the outdoors is the lack of safety net (well an obvious one), why put one there.



I disagree. I walked over a 5000m pass in the Himalayas with a guy wearing flip flops, in fact he was carrying my rucksack for me. My wife and I run in shorts, T shirts and trainers most of the year in Snowdonia, we'd be stopped every few steps by these patrols. Yet we are both ML holders.

In reply to Ridge:


Oh I don't know.

We could have an entertaining weekend following them round asking questions.

In reply to Lee Grant:

I also have to say that I think this is a rubbish idea.

>'Patrolling the hill'
>'Moral obligation to advise the flip flop posse that their summit dream is going to end abruptly'
>'hill walkers who are basically be honest p*****g everyone off!'
>'initiate some rules'

>'NGB awards allow a ML/MIA to make crucial decisions on the hill? (like a personal trainer in the gym)'
>'provide and instill confidence to individuals/groups in distress. and make those decisions for the group.'

Frankly I think it all sounds terrifying. Your thinking seems to be that since some people don't always make the right decisions, a self appointed group (ie. you) should go up into the hill to make the decisions for everyone.

In reply to Lee Grant:

Oh dear. I've worn mine in the hills in the UK, and for long hut walk-ins in the Alps. Does that mean I'm going to get arrested by your Mountain Gear Police (sponsored by TNF)?

In reply to Lee Grant: The hills do not need policed/patrolled. People need to take responsibility for their actions, and think before they act. That seems to be the main problem in this country - the thinking part.

You cannot stop people enjoying themselves, and accidents will always happen, but you can educate people in the skills that are likely to assist THEMSELF staying alive in the UK hills.

In reply to KeithW:

Hadn't thought of that...I think it's a great idea!

In reply to Lee Grant:

Anyone else thinking of Whitbury Newtown Leisure Centre?





Just me then.

On the whole most MR Teams have plenty of team members to call on at all times of the day and night.
Just because one particualr team decides to use publicity to tell the public that they are undermanned and need more volunteers doesn't mean that other teams are in the same position.

I agree that there is no reason why suitably experienced people, whether they hold any kind of qualification or not, cam help as passing samaritans if needed. Most MRT will definately think carefully about accepting help from other hill goers who are either in the same group as an injured person or who are bystanders.
Most times uninjured group members are escorted from the hill while the injured are dealt with by the rest of the team.

Also, just because people deem themselves as experienced in the mountains, or they hold a recognised qualification such as ML, this does not always mean that they can be effective helpers. There have been many cases in Wales alone where the rescuees have been ML holders with groups and there was a very recent rescue involving a MIA holder who had totaly made the wrong decision about his friends ability and pig-headedly forced them in to a cragfast situation that they could not reverse.

People need help getting off the hill for many reasons and you can bet that when they are found they are in locations that most 'experienced hill goers' would find quite outside ther ability and comfort zones and this applies to Award holders too.

MRT members who's working areas cover mountains and cliffs generally have a very high standard of mountaineering skills and there is usually a core of very able climbers in a team who can safely and quickly get in to the most inaccesable places on a cliff in all weather conditions if needed.

Mountain Rescue Teams are these days extremely well trained and capable, just because they are voluntary does not mean they are not professional.

If people would like to visit Ogwen Valley base for a tour round as well as learning more about the resources , technical and otherwise, that a modern team has available and a mug of tea they are most welcome.
All I would ask is that a donation is made.
Contact me through PM if you would like to bring a group round.

Thanks
Mark

In reply to BP12: There are outdoor professionals who to some extent already 'patrol' the fells (though not in the policing sense of the word) - National Park Rangers. Is there an arguement for greater goverment funding to enable more rangers on the hill in certain honey pot destinations? Are there any rangers/wardens here who can comment?

In reply to BP12:

policing is a little far out but i think we all know what the moral is? just a little guidance, and of course to much of a safety net does take the adventure out of it all but you must admit there is a point where common sense must prevail! c'mon? late for a dinner party!!!

bet the guys were wearing flip flops!!

sorry peops flip flops are a fashion crime and yes you will be arrested by the mountain police wearing MR tshirts posse

lee

In reply to BP12: I've read some but not all of the thread but this comes up a lot with MR and also the lifeboats...'canoeists just ring us on their mobile phone to see the lifeboat launched'.

We often hear MR leaders quoted as saying there is a 'real problem'. Can I ask if the MR organisations have stated clearly they think there is a problem to be addressed and if so what is their plan?

Is this individual MR personnel speaking to the media?

Is it a such minority of calls that we just have to put up with it or should we be having a publicity campaign like is happening with 999?

'I'm lost in the supermarket car park and I'm really upset and can't find my car'...or something like that is one call that has been used...a taped, real 999 or so we are lead to believe. This is the BBC who mislead us about the Blue Peter cat.

In reply to Simon Caldwell:

I'd probably be banged up for life. I've done full days walking across the high fells in the Lake District barefoot.

In reply to Caralynr:

You're not a hobbit are you?

In reply to Lee Grant: What are you going to do when you are told to piss off? I've advised people before now that they may be a bit late to summit and return before dark and most have ignored me but the vast majority did make it back safely(ish).

I've also been admonished my self for setting off 'too late'. Actually I was setting myself a night navigation exercise and was obviously well kitted out for it but the guy in question needed to be told quite strongly that I was ok before he would leave.

Steve D

In reply to Ridge:

LOL it's been said before! 2 breakfasts and hairy feet, that's me

No, I usually walk barefoot in summer, even to Tescos etc, I don't see the problem. So when, about an hour into a walk, my shoes fell apart, I didn't see any reason to turn back, I just carried on without them, and enjoyed myself, and then saw no reason to wear shoes really.

In reply to Snowdonia Adventures:


Kudos

up the insurance fees and pay for professional rescue teams/ gate keepers ..... who can be out every day making sure folks don't go on the hill without preparation

install turnstiles at all access points and credit card terminals on the gates, discounts for BMC members and the occasional BOGOF on bank holidays and then on bank holidays deny access to un-accompanied groups...


what next ? CCTV camera on street corners ....

In reply to BP12:
One couple called the emergency number and demanded a helicopter because they were late for a dinner party,

I listened to the radio on the way out the other morning and the rescue team member being interviewed said this story was 10 years ago not recent history...

Teams and members do a sterling job and if only I could manage the time and commitment to get involved I would .... I find it difficult to spare time for much once works out of the way and the family beckons ...

well done to the teams...

On the note about asking for guide off the hills these folk who cant look after themselves and request a guide off. The team in question should have a list of local experienced qualified and insured people who can be paid by the stranded people to escort them off ... thats where Insurance should come in or the stuck person(s) credit cards come in handy, and the tin can be shaken in respect of a % off the guiding fee... ?

Has this been discussed by teams ? It might make people think before going out ill equipped everyones got the fantastic plastic in their pocket ...

Is this viable ?

In reply to Snowdonia Adventures: I hadn't seen this post before making mine, Mark.

What do representatives of MR Team nationally say about the extent of the problem? Any idea?

In reply to drunken monkey:

It's not the thinking part that is the main problem it's the taking responsibility part! It's another manifestation(sp?) of the compensation culture that is forcing climbing wall prices throught the roof due to the inshurance policy cost increases. i.e no one is prepared to say "yep it was my fault" for whatever reason and instead are looking for someone to blame.

It all comes back to a lack of a sense of personal responsibility for their own actions, a rather sad situation in my humble opinion

In reply to simon geering: Its not really an issue who's fault it is - There will always be people willing to rescue folk off of the UK's hills, no matter who is to blame. But if people thought a little more before they got themselves into trouble, it would happen less.

In reply to Ian and Nial Modern:
Hi Ian, Happy New Year, sorry I didnt reply to your last e-mail, I was in Scotland and using another e-mail account.
I did hear that both North Wales teams have, in the past, mentioned to rescuees who were lost on a marked path fairly close to home that they could give them a number of a local instructor to ring for paid help off the hill. This was I think some time ago though. Hope alls well with you and yours.

Neil I would think that those MRT member who reply to questions answer them from their feelings and point of view, I certainly do. To get a definative answer it would probably have to come from either the MRC Press oficer press@mountain.rescue.org or the Presdient president@mountain.rescue.org

Although some teams may hold their own opinions on such matters and you could contact them directly I suppose. However, the service has always been voluntary and has evolved over the years with teams still being funded from donations and some course and equipment funded centrally from the MRC. In Scotland the teams do get funded from the Scottish Parliament and have a majority say in where govermnemt funding is spent. There have been lengthy discussions with regard to government central funding of teams and the restrictions and redtape( cant spell beurocracy!) that this would incur, even down the road of members being put in to full time shift rota employment with all the performance related funding etc that this would entail.
I think that a no strings attached fund from central government would be great, but I dont think that will happen.
Perhaps funding could come from additional membership fees when joining the BMC, so that you get rescue insurance cover similar to that in some European areas. This would be a monumental task and a major turning point in the way the service is provided and I dont know what the outcome would be for MR Teams as most are registered charities, if they were to suddenly start receiving tens of thousands from call outs with their team members being paid from those funds as well as the fact that the RAF would get their rescue budget slashed for providing helicopter support. Large amounts of paper work would be envolved!

In reply to Lee Grant: "I know there is no search for glory in MRteams"

That really made me laugh! I actually think your idea of policing the hills makes you perfect for an MT team, do you live within the Bolton area?

In reply to Fawksey: I do believe the recent "News" that was twenty or more years old trotted out on here and in the Telegraph paper was due to the Rossendale & Pendle MR team wishing to recruit new members

Andy Simpson and Judy Whiteside both quoted in the aricle are team members of R&PMRT

In reply to plexiglass_nick:
hi, good cut and pasting there, took the context right out! you havent thought of working in media have you?
understand concerns but its not a military operation, just a little guidance for the less competent out there,
cheers

In reply to Fawksey:
Have a real downer on BMRT dont you?

In reply to Snowdonia Adventures: MRC Press oficer

I'll drop them an email and see if they have a line on it

In reply to Lee Grant:

I suspect this isn't even a troll! Oh, dear, you just don't get it, do you? The hills are not a gym. We take responsibility for ourselves. There are people who are unprepared, but unless you know an individual's background/ competence, who are you to say whether (s)he's unprepared?

Flip-flop wearers might be perfectly competent in their flip-flop wearing, you don't know. So what do you do? approach them in your "Hill Patrol" vest and politely tell them off for the wrong footwear?

The bloke my son and I met doing the Mosdale Horseshoe a few years back seemed to fit your "no gear" profile: shorts, no top, battered trainers, half litre water bottle in one hand and 3 dogs. He told us he was doing the horseshoe plus Scafell Pike and Scafell...woefully under-equipped for a long day on the fells. It was Jos Naylor (no relation) and he was in his element.

On the same trip, a guy followed us up a stony gully where we (pre-planned) had to climb out of the sidewall before the very loose top. I had 5 nuts, a sling, 1 extender, 2 krabs and a 20m length of rope with me...enough for me to lead up, build a stance and bring my son up on a munter hitch with the rope round his waist. The bloke following us would have been in a right state if I hadn't taken pity on him, dropped the rope down and brought him up.

Yet he had all the gear, was prroperly dressed, had a map and compass, etc, etc. But he was totally inexperienced in the hills. He'd followed us because he'd assumed that someone with a 10-11 year old kid with them would be sticking to very easy ground.


The "late for a dinner party" incident was over a decade ago. What kind of "rules" do you want to initiate? No sandals on Crib Goch? A mate's done CG several times in Tevas and he's perfectly competent. Anyone approaching him to note his "inadequate" footwear would be given very short shrift indeed.

Fawksey, you should know that there is a problem nationally with MRT's recruiting members and the members staying with the Team after being trained. Not only has Andy, who is the National Press Officer, mentioned it, LDSAMRA have mentioned it in various press releases, I think even NWMRA have done the same. The recruitment drive has happen nationaly and isn't just a MPSRO thing. But I am aware that Bolton, Bowland Pennine & Rossendale all got together in some press releases.


And they are also Officers of the MR (E&W) and can speak on their behalf.

Dave

Like to explain why your having a pop at the Team I'm in ?

In reply to Rob Naylor:


One of Sir Ed Hillary's obituaries said he was once told off by a local rambler for walking up Snowdon in shorts, singlet & sandals.

In reply to KeithW: That's quite a famous story. I can't remember who it was but it was someone like the head of the climbing club, or another large organisation, who he was going to give a talk to the following day.

In reply to IainRUK:
classic

I've bagged 2 munros in Feb at least partly barefoot! (Shoes on for the rocky/snowy bits.)There are a couple of naturists who intend to do as much as possible of as many Munros as possible nude. What are the hill police going to say about that!
In reply to Caralynr:

In reply to Nigel Modern: MRC Press oficer

Press officer email address doesn't exist any more. I'll try and look at any website they have...

In reply to Nigel Modern:

If you add the .uk to the end of the email address, then that should work -
press@mountain.rescue.org.uk

Original Poster of email address missed it off

Dave

In reply to BP12:

This subject is over-hyped. If you look at the figures for skiers then in comparison walkers seems a cautious and well-prepared bunch. Droves of people manage to injure or kill themselves simply doing the housework or commuting to work.

In reply to Witkacy:

Has there been any academic research done to see if is the same people who get injured both on the hill and doing housework?

In reply to djh:

I know Andy and count Jude as a personal friend, I was aware they were recruiting, they being R&PMRT, I was unaware that it was all mid pennine teams or on a national level

Sorry about the ribbing, I was just fishing and wondered if I could hook a bolton member

I wonder why they are not holding onto trainees?

In reply to Fawksey:

Turnover's always been huge (50%+) in the first year, still significant in the next couple of years - especially if the team member's married funnily enough. I left after six years to preserve (or restore) marital harmony. There are only so many antisocial call-outs one can reasonably take; don't you think? It's probaby different in the Lakes, Snowdonia and Scotland, but when you've fished your fifth motocrossing scrote off a disused slag heap the fascination starts to wear off. (I know you replied to DJH, but you were fishing with a multi-barbed hook and had a fairly good catch)

In reply to DNS: I think there is one member left from the 12 inducted when I joined

I dont know if the problems are unique to each team or if they are similar across the board

In reply to Fawksey:


Well You've not been watching the local news recently !! both of them wiull be upset re their recent Tv appearances. The problem quoted by all Teams is that we are too busy to keep hold of members, when I joined Bolton in 1990, there were 7 jobs a year, this year some 60 MR jobs + fundraising + maintenance days + PR work + Committee meetings + the list goes on.

Its the same all over, some people think its all glam, other know the truth, you get the Walter Miity's, you get the Blue Light chasers and every other thing in between. They don't last and soon get fed up and go.

Its the same with all voluntary organisations


Well you did and you got 2 hooked on different threads !


See above.

dave

PS whats all this about a trip to Germany and your credit card ???

In reply to DNS:
(I know you replied to DJH, but you were fishing with a multi-barbed hook and had a fairly good catch)

Yup, some of us are just plain old pi**ed off with the bickering on here of our Team.



Dave

In reply to djh: I couldnt possibly comment on the signing of my credit card on the arse of a Berlin hooker without bringing this thread into disrepute

on a serious note I left MR because of the Walter Mitty's and blue light chasers - I know there are some very dedicated decent people in there and I have every respect for them, which includes yourself and Bolton

In reply to Fawksey:

Damn I was hoping for a good story


Thanks Guy and there are quite a lot of dedicated decent people, out there, from all teams.

Dave

In reply to Lee Grant:


the NHS will spend Billions a year on drugs and treatment for pre/post cardiac and other health problems; however they will not use any of this budget on prevention, i.e personal trainers (like myself) and fitness professionals to combat the issue in the first place. you log on to any resource (REPS) and find out how many fitness pro's there are to the population? the ratio will shock.
what im trying to say is, the MR has enough on its plate, and as a Mountain Leader i would be more than willing to work on a joint venture with my local MR as part of a local team of leaders who "Patrol" the hills on the weekends, this the prevention rather than the cure. there are a lot of volunteer sectors and groups out there who work jointly with the police/services etc. would it be an idea to create a team of hill/mountain walkers to work closely on the behalf of MR providing basic skills out there.? the thing is we are out walking anyway, and have a moral obligation to advise the flip flop posse that thier summit dream for that day is going to end abrubtly. personally i would happily be part of a team like this, as a/ it gives a team more experience b/relieves some of the pressures off MR c/ provides basic skills to hill walkers who are basically be honest p*****g everyone off!

Hey Lee, This is true and should be a viable option, especially as the outdoor industry is gaining more and more over industries that are dying out. The tourist industry is currently being opened wider to adventure tourism, and I think, as a safety measure local MR groups should be given the funding from the government.
This money should be used, as you have said, to work with leisure facilities and training programs, especially in the schools. If adventure education was a preliminary part of our education system the younger more encourageable ages, who are the future climbers, will be given the knowledge to be safer on the hills.
It is an ongoing debate, which is being brought up at the 'Advancing Adventure' Seminar at Fort William in the Lochaber area of scotland, on friday the 22nd Feb 2008, this weekend. This is part of the Lochaber Mountain Festival.
The motion to be debated is: 'This house believes that those who partake in outdoor sports and are require the use of rescue services should contribute towards thecost of the service.'
Any views or opinions can be posted here or sent to my address.
Random_jon@yahoo.co.uk

In reply to Jon Macleod:

I'm opposed to that. I just feel that if people think if they call out an MRT they will be charged then they may not call out for financial reasons.

In reply to Jon Macleod:

While I agree, I think you'll find the BMC would oppose such a move as for some archaic reason they won't promote the outdoors as an option for people.

In reply to Jon Macleod:
'This house believes that those who partake in outdoor sports and are require the use of rescue services should contribute towards thecost of the service.'

What about the crashed car drivers and motorcyclists, dog walkers, alzheimers patients, children, golfers, sledgers, despondants, elderly, substance abusers, aircrash casualties, stuck dogs, stuck sheep, snowbound commuters, flooded out families, members of the armed services who need the rescue services?

Volunteer service freely given to those who need it. Long may that be the case.

In reply to IainRUK:

Exactamondo.

"I'm tired and we're going to be late for our dinner party. I know lets call out them Mountain Rescue Boys. Then again, that'll cost £xxx, maybe we should just walk down and accept we are going to be late"

In reply to DerwentDiluted:

A very good point, thankyou for raising it, all opinions are welcome. I need as much info from both sides of the argument as pos.

In reply to toad:


The Brittas empire? LOL.

In reply to Alpha: Either way I think this is for the MRT's to appeal for. Like central funding.

In reply to IainRUK:
for some archaic reason they won't promote the outdoors as an option for people.


would you be so kind as to elaborate on this opinion / thought .... ?

are some peoples strings or leg being pulled ?

In reply to IainRUK:
>

What an uttely bizzarre thing to say!

The people who would oppose such a move are the safety-obsessed, overweight, risk averse citizens of this country; not people who have been mountaineering since they were kids themselves, continue to defend our right to do it as free from regulation as possible, and try to represent the views of its members though consensus.

In reply to Norrie Muir:

Interesting point. Has there been any study into what people actually take up with them in comparison to there experience? I know some people do go up with exactly what they need but don't have the experience to carry it all. Are these the people that should pay when they get stuck?

In reply to AlisonS:

I think you are wrong. It's been said many times that the BMC will not actively encourage people into the sport.

TBh I think there's a bit of a confusion even within the BMC on this. As I understand it there policy is to remove barriers for those who want to start climbing, hill walking etc, but won't actively go out and 'sell' the activity to kids.

Personally I'd love to see local kids especially to be taken out in the hills, climbing, walking etc. It saddens me when I'd mention to some of the local lads at football that I was out running and they don't know the skyline which surrounds them. I just feel not just for the obvious fitness benefits, but seeing what is up there encourages conservation.

In reply to Ian McNeill: The BMC's policy is that they won't encourage new people into the sport. The BMC promote best practice and look after the interests of existing climbers/hill walkers, but won't encourage more people into the sport. I actually feel quite strongly that we should be. I think all national bodies of sports/activities should be doing all they can to make britain fitter. Fair enough many people disagree with me there, that's just my personal view.

In reply to Jon Macleod:

Not that I know, however some useless student will no doubt get a research grant to find out there is no correlation. The people who should pay are the students who should be working and contributing to society, instead of drinking, smoking dope, popping pills and having unprotected sex.