UKC

as in the title - anyone got any experience with these? The stats for the ABS seem pretty impressive and the (moderately to extremely painful) price worth paying for the protection on offer but I wonder about all that extra weight for ski mountaineering. Avalung much cheaper and somewhat lighter but much less protection - maybe use as a combo but this increases weight even more. Any thoughts - I'm quite tempted


cheers, P

In reply to Paul Atkinson:

you're better off gaining the knowledge to try and avoid them in the first place imho. (admitedly it's not a foolproof process).

Am sure they work, but are they worth the weight and cost?! hmmm, am not sure.

Currently seem to be only worn by numpties at the moment as far I as can see.

In reply to Paul Atkinson: rent an ABS when you go.....

I've seen the spiel and demo videos and they look pretty good, and the idea of being kept on top of a slide rather than pulled in is pretty appealing. Jeremy Jones (rides probably the worlds riskiest lines possible on a snowboard) wears one, so they probably are useful bits of kit, but he does mostly get helicoptered to the top. Expensive too.

As for the avalung, again, prolongs your life expectancy, but you still go under, and I often wonder if you'd have time or presence of mind to get the tube in your mouth?

In reply to Paul Atkinson:

http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=280427

Scroll down, there is a discussion on them both :0)

In reply to Paul Atkinson:

Hi Paul,

We bought Avalungs about a year ago for ski touring/off piste. Didn't consider the ABS system for a couple of reasons:

- You effectively have to use their rucsac
- Weight
- No use if you "come round" buried in an avalanche after being caught
- Hassle of taking it on an aircraft
- Having seen a random woman who did not look anything like an off-piste type (furry collar on "fashion" ski suit type) walk into Camp de Base in Courchevel and just buy one at an exorbitant price!

OK - maybe the last reason is not reason enough

Liked the "science" of the Avalung and the fact that it can be utilised after an avalanche has happened if you've got caught.

Only pain with it is that it is another but of harnessy type stuff around your torso and can get in the way of your pack. You also have to wear it over your top layer so each time you shed/add a layer you have to unclip and reclip. Minor hassle though.

Obviously though - prevention is better than cure and having a decent transceiver, probe and (metal!) shovel - none of those crappy plastic ones - just in case prevention doesn't work.

Andy

In reply to Paul Atkinson: thanks for the replies


I'm not sure my mrs would accept "trying not to look a numpty" as an excuse for deading myself - she married me on the acceptance of my numptiness in the first place. She's also become quite morbid of imagination about my skiing and winter climbing activities since we moved our mortgage to Scottish Widows (being as she's already Scottish.... and a pathologist)

I would happily pay the cash for ABS but am trying to get fully acquainted with the downside / hassles which don't make the adverts. The weight seems the main issue for multiday and a very significant drawback. I'm told the touring sacs are very good as sacs - any experience? Not sure how transferrable the kit then is for single day off piste? Also the air travel issue - anyone know the full lowdown? How available are cylinders around and about?

Seems to me from the stats that if carrying only one system then survival is much better for ABS than Avalung but that they could be complementary - anyone use both?

For the record I always carry Tracker, probe and shovel off piste and have rerasonable knowledge / training / experience re avalanche awareness, planning, search etc - am seeking to better the odds beyond that

cheers, P

In reply to Paul Atkinson:

Between the 2 I'd go for ABS (I nearly bought one this winter).

The Avalung has been prved to work in tests butI've never fancied my chances of getting it in my mouth in time, what with me screaming like a girl. I'm a lot more likely to just pull a toggle and inflate my wings.

No idea of the restrictions with plane travel. You don't have to buy ABS, I'm pretty sue Deuter do, or will do, sacs with them in.

The ABS sacs I've seen and tried on (but never worn in anger) seemed pretty comfy and well thought out.

1 in 2 people in St. Anton (where I was 2 weeks ago) seem to wear them.

In reply to Paul Atkinson: Hi Paul, quite a few guides seem to be using the ABS packs at the moment (Chamonix & Sainte-Foy that I've seen), but I'm sure that's mostly for day trips. The new Vario system seems quite good, where you can zip different packs onto the ABS bit - Millet are doing some. In an ideal world you would be able to zip a BD Avalung pack onto the ABS system, but I guess that's some way away.

There's an independent review here too:

http://www.tetongravity.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1674052

If you end up getting one, let us know what you think - I'm prepared to look (even more) like a numpty to avoid death by avalanche (already got the Avalung, so I'm halfway to numptydom...)

In reply to rousse: thanks for that link, interesting. I think a chat with the suppliers is called for re moving the system between packs and air travel issues. Might also talk to Backcountry in Ilkley as they have been very knowledgeable and helpful in the past (but don't sell ABS). Will report back

P

In reply to Paul Atkinson:
The ABS has impressive evidence of effectiveness already, despite being relatively new. I was speaking to someone who was at a recent IKAR conference , where the evidence was presented, but probably more telling all the IKAR guys had them for ski-touring. They work by keeping you on the surface, reducing the chance of being buried. There are some reservations: they increase the chance of tree impact and in areas where this is likely, particularly ski-touring in N America they may actually increase mortality.

The avalung is a different proposition: AFAIK there is no solid evidence of it preventing a death in practice. The demos with some BD bigwig buried in a tank of snow are all very well, but how you're meant to get the thing into your mouth at point of avalanche impact is beyond me. It probably does not raise your likelihood of surviving an avalanche by much, if any.

However, there is no substitute for avalanche awareness and knowledge, and carrying a probe, shovel and transceiver, and more importantly knowing how to use them and having had lots of practice doing so.

In reply to Paul Atkinson:

I've seen a demo of the airbag, and its incredible. A great piece of kit, if I was skiing regularly I'd buy one.

If you buy one, I'd suggest you get to the airport in good time to show them and explain what the kit is and the fact that the gas cylinder and charge will need some extra care.

I can see where your coming from re tree collisions but better to have a chance of surviving an avalanche and hitting a tree than being buried deep with a much lower chance of survival.

The statistics are amazing, nothing like this exists and the demo I saw convinced me it was worth the money.

Kev

In reply to Paul Atkinson: I had convinced myself to purchase but have spoken to someone I consider an extremely reliable and knowledgeable source and been told that contrary to what ABS say on their site (as far as they know all European airlines will carry the ABS in baggage), none of the budget airlines are willing to carry it. Have emailed easyjet and await a response and will try others and update. Any experience / tales?

cheers, P

In reply to Paul Atkinson: Just about all of the off piste guides in Val d'Isere use ABS or the new Snowpulse system. As you say, the stats section of the ABS web site is impressive. A guide that I know triggered a substantial avalanche this season and pulled his ABS - I saw a photo of him lying on the surface towards the bottom of the avalanche, clearly visible as a result of the airbags.

The Snowpulse system completely surrounds the head when inflated, helping to protect against trauma - this is a definite plus of that system. It is also 600 or 700 grams lighter than the ABS, although only available in a 30 litre size.

You are right to raise the issue of air travel - ABS claim that their nitrogen filled cyclinder is accepted on all planes, and supply a sheet stating this with each pack sold. The Snowpulse system uses compressed air at 3000 psi and must be discharged before air travel. Snowpulse claim that their system can be recharged by a scuba shop or a fire station, but you need a 180 euro adapter to do this.

In reply to Paul Atkinson:Just come back from a week's off piste skiing with a guide in Italy. We used the Avalung system, as our guide reckoned the latest research suggests that you have a better chance of survival with this system if shit happens. The Black Diamond Avalung rucksacks we used were bloody well designed, comfortable and no heavier than a normal 32 litre rucksack (and a hell of a lot lighter than the ABS systems used previously). The mouthpiece doesn't get in the way, and just looks like a bigger drinking tube, so you don't get funny looks on the lifts.

In reply to Paul Atkinson:

John,

The only downside of the avalung is that you could still be well buried and are much likelier to suffer from broken limbs and damage from debris.

You also need to get it in your mouth and it has to stay there. Not sure what being avalanched feels like but I guess its not too disimilar to whitewater rafting only more painful and I had difficulty keeping my brain in my head let alone trying to concentrate on biting down on a mouthpiece (even harder if your unconscious).

Kev


I think that it really isn't a comparison to the ABS.

Kev

In reply to arctickev: haven't had a response from Easyjet yet!

In reply to arctickev: Yeah, those are all valid points Kev - I suppose in an ideal world you would have both systems in one rucksack, but I'm not sure how practical (or portable) it would be to combine them. I gues like all things in the mountains, you pays yer money and you hope you don't hear somebody say "what the f*ck's that roaring noi......"

In reply to Paul Atkinson:

Was just sent this link which makes for interesting reading for the Avalung:

http://www.bdel.com/scene/events/avalung_burial_zaninetti.php

HTH

Fauvé

In reply to Paul Atkinson: for any interested parties Easyjet have come up trumps - got this by email:

"Avalanche rescue backpack - one per passenger equipeed with a pyrotechnic trigger mechanism containing less then 200mg net of division 1.45 and less than 250 mg of compressed gas in division 2.2. The bagpack must be packed in such a manner, that it can not be accidentally activated. The airbags within the backpacks must be fitted with preassure relief valves.

Once you make a booking please contact our customer services on the number
0871 244 2366
Provide us with the booking reference for us to forward this case to the authorities at the airport informing them of the special luggage you will have.

Please contact us no later than 48 hours bofore the estimated tiome of departure"


excellent news AFAIAC - their L'pool - Geneva flights are very convenient ski mountaineering wise

think I'm likely to take the plunge and buy the ABS and be sure to fly Easyjet

will report back if I survive (and the kit doesn't get nicked at Liverpool)

P